Thank You Letters Revisited

[ZymarOUQID]

So wondering what the SDN consensus on these two schools of thought about thank you letters is:

one says that you should send them right away so that they remember who you are (especially if you mention something unique you talked about in the interview in your letter, so it jogs their memories...). Also, some programs make their list right away (or right after their last interview date), and some programs are done interviewing so its good to send in your letter right away.

the other says yes, send it in for programs that you might not want to rank highly. but for those that are your 1-3 choices, send them somewhat in the middle/end (late Nov/Dec) so that you can tell them, "I've been on all my interviews blah blah and I think your program is the bestest one ever and I will rank you as #1" (or however youd like to phrase this)

So... anyone want to comment on a number of issues raised in the past two paragraphs, not just these two points of view?

And of course, there's another two schools on the medium for the letters. One says email, since it's easier and no one has time to read through MORE paper. The other says paper, even though it takes time to send via snail-mail but it usually goes into your file and may tip the scale in your favor when all the attendings sit around and argue. And yet, another says handwritten thank you cards... oh wait, that's 3 schools then. My bad.

Finally, a piece of advice passed on to me from seniors and I'll share it here (dunno if it was already mentioned): send a thank you note/letter to the secretary as well. These poor ladies have dealt with our crap for the past 3 months. And most of them have done a great job! Sure, it might not help your rank at a program, but its a nice thing to do.

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[ophthogirl]

so i posted a similar request (although admittingly with much less detail) on another forum and i thought i'd just share the response i got:

aProgDirector
Peacekeeper
"There was a thread about this.... Last year sometime....​

Ahh yes, here it is.​

Net result:
1. Writing (or not) a thank you note is almost never going to change your position on a ROL.
2. I personally think it's a waste of time, paper, and money. I do read them all. They all say the same thing.
3. My PA really likes seeing them.
4. Some people think it's the right thing to do, per etiquette."​

Kimberli Cox
SDN Administrator​

"There really are not hard and fast rules about this. While it is the polite and nice thing to do, in the end it will not make a significant difference in your application standing come ranking time.​

So, send them if you feel good about your experience someplace and your mother taught you well, but don't expect that it will sway votes your way."​

that being said, i'm sooooo writing (not typing) thank you notes to all the places i'm interviewing at and then probably additional ones to my top few - and all within a couple days of their last interview date so that it can make whatever impact (or lack there of) by the time most places make their rol.

cheers
good luck with this

 

[DrEyeBall]

I would be shocked if it helps you anywhere. Most places rank right after there interviews. A card or note will not move you up later.

 

[Wolverine98]

I would be shocked if it helps you anywhere. Most places rank right after there interviews. A card or note will not move you up later.

I completely agree. Conversely, I can't imagine any program director saying, "I was going to rank this guy in the top 5, but we never got a Thank You note, so we'll move him down to the next tier."

I would say that about 1/3-1/2 of the people I've interviewed sent letters, and it's never affected the way they're ranked.

Dave

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I've been involved with several selection committees and letters do not help in regard to ranking. Send them if they make you feel better.

 

[twintiger32]

again on this topic...

If I choose to write thank-you's, should I send one to every person I interview with? Or just the PD or chairman?

For some programs, you literally interview with 15 attendings...it just doesn't seem reasonable to write personal letters to all 15.

Thoughts?

 

[ophthogirl]

i don't know what the "protocol" is but i've been writing mine to the program director.....

 

[ophthal3]

I stopped writing thank you notes altogether. A number of sources have told me review committees almost always rank the day's applicants right after they leave, so your letter probably wont have much impact (see above posts from attendings attesting to this). If you have the stamina to write thank yous to all 10 interviewers go for it. I used to write one the the PD only.

 

[lostnstresd]

With all the stress of traveling and coordinating interviews, I havent gotten around to submitting thank you notes. How bad is that? Would submitting them late hurt me more than not submitting them at all?

 

[Wolverine98]

With all the stress of traveling and coordinating interviews, I havent gotten around to submitting thank you notes. How bad is that? Would submitting them late hurt me more than not submitting them at all?

Immediate, late, never; I'm not convinced it makes a difference if or when.

Dave

 

[BTS]

I don't totally agree with the idea that thank you letters don't make a difference in rank lists. It depends on how the program does their ranking system. At some places, the program director and / or chairman allow for some leeway in tweaking the list. If there are two equally ranked candidates and one candidate shows a lot more interest in the program than the other, it can and does make a difference.

Of course, it's impossible to know which programs allow for some leeway and which don't. A lot of programs will rank that day and leave it at that. Also, a thank you letter doesn't make a candidate go from an unrankable position to a rankable position. It can, however, make a difference in the gray areas. Doesn't hurt and may just help.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

If there are two equally ranked candidates and one candidate shows a lot more interest in the program than the other, it can and does make a difference.

I've been involved with the selection of residents at three extremely competitive programs and for numerous selection cycles. I have yet to see two equally ranked candidates compete for a spot. There is always something to make one candidate look better: e.g. (listed in no particular order), personal statement, AOA, grades, life experiences, research, awards, class rank, medical school, board scores, letters of recommendations, attitude, or interview performance.

I have never observed any committee member say, "This candidate sent me a nice "Thank You" letter and let's rank this student higher."

The bottom line is that committee members know that if you're sending thank you letters, then most likely you're sending it to all the programs that you interviewed at. If sending a letter makes you feel better, then do it. If it's a chore, then don't. It doesn't matter.

If you want to express your enthusiasm for a program, then do it at the interview. For instance, I knew I wanted to go to Iowa, so I told them at the interview that I am ranking them first.

 

[BTS]

With all respect to your experience, it depends on how the selections are done. If it's at a program where everyone sits down in a room after interviews, ranks people and leaves it at that - you're probably correct. A thank you letter makes no difference. Some programs don't handle the selection process that way - and in these scenarios, the program director (or chairman) has more control - however small.

And, as I am also significantly involved in the process of selecting residents at an "extremely competitive program", my experience has been that there really isn't all that much that separates candidates. At least 1/3 of the candidates that we interview are AOA, they've all done amazing things outside of med school, most have published, letters are usually top notch, personal statements offer little true insight, most people interview well enough and many med schools don't give class rank their candidates (except in the dean's letter, where the bulk of them are in the "outstanding candidate" class anyway). Harvard and Stanford are especially egregious about this - they refuse to put descriptors at the end of the dean's letter because all of their students are great.

As an aside, no committee member is going to come out and say "I got a nice letter, lets rank this guy higher". That just sounds silly. But, the letter may put someone in mind and put them in a positive light, which in turn may make a committee member look at an application more favorably.

This is just my two cents and my personal experience with the process. You can take my advice however you want. My only point is that it doesn't hurt, and at some programs it may make a difference. Again, it's not going to move you from an unrankable spot to a rankable spot, but it may make a difference if you're in the gray zone (especially at programs that don't go too far down the list).

 

[Wolverine98]

I've been involved with the selection of residents at three extremely competitive programs and for numerous selection cycles. I have yet to see two equally ranked candidates compete for a spot. There is always something to make one candidate look better: e.g. (listed in no particular order), personal statement, AOA, grades, life experiences, research, awards, class rank, medical school, board scores, letters of recommendations, attitude, or interview performance.

I have never observed any committee member say, "This candidate sent me a nice "Thank You" letter and let's rank this student higher."

The bottom line is that committee members know that if you're sending thank you letters, then most likely you're sending it to all the programs that you interviewed at. If sending a letter makes you feel better, then do it. If it's a chore, then don't. It doesn't matter.

If you want to express your enthusiasm for a program, then do it at the interview. For instance, I knew I wanted to go to Iowa, so I told them at the interview that I am ranking them first.

My experience has been exactly the same at the two programs I've been involved with.

Dave

 

[rubensan]

As you can see, the consensus on thank-you notes is a lot like the consensus on glaucoma management; everyone has a different view. I guess I come from the camp that says it depends on your personality. Are you going to loose sleep at night wondering if you should have a sent a thank-you note? If you answer this question with a yes, then send them. One caveat: avoid sending strongly worded thank-you notes, especially during the beginning of the interview season. I always find it a bit odd to receive a thank-you after our first interview day stating that they intend to rank us highly!? How can you possibly know in November? My point, get a few interviews under your belt, see what's out there and make an informed decision,

 

[Wolverine98]

My only point is that it doesn't hurt, and at some programs it may make a difference.

I disagree. It can hurt. If you have a hand-written note, and it turns out you have horrific handwriting, that could potentially hurt you. You'd be amazed at the levels of weirdness that people can put into what should be a simple Thank You letter. And yes, it can be out there enough to make the rankers reconsider their thoughts on your application. Think of it like the personal statement; rarely will that help you, but it can definitely hurt you.

 

[redblueyellow3]

You could also consider thank you notes as the polite way to pave the road for your underclassmen - if you want other people from your med school to have be considered for interveiws in future years, it makes a good name for your school to extend this social courtesy.

 

[BTS]

rarely will that help you, but it can definitely hurt you.

I guess we just have different philosophies on this. It seems to me that if the letter can hurt a candidate, that one should also allow the letter to help. And, in my own experience, no one has written a letter to me that was so crazy that it's hurt them in my eyes. Some sound more .... desparate, for lack of a better word .... but none have shown significant pathology (yet).

Again, my posts are based on my experience only - and the way things are handled at my program (and a few others that I'm aware of, having asked around). Take it for whatever you want (or don't want).

I do agree that the vast majority of letters that I receive are so vanilla that they make no difference either way.

 

[DrEyeBall]

These letters will not make a difference so do not lose sleep over not sending them. If you can not stand the thought of missing a potential opportunity to help yourself, then go ahead and send one anyway. We have discussed this at all of the program I have been involved with so far. I can tell you that many of these letters never even get opened by some faculty. As someone said, people assume you send them to all the places you visit.

As for writing a letter to show your enthusiasm for the program, people will also think you are smart enough to be doing everywhere as well.

If you really love a program, a phone call from someone who knows someone MIGHT help. Telling someone at an interview the specific reasons MIGHT help and doing an away rotation COULD help.

A thank you letter stands very little chance of doing anything.

 

[Wolverine98]

I guess we just have different philosophies on this. It seems to me that if the letter can hurt a candidate, that one should also allow the letter to help. And, in my own experience, no one has written a letter to me that was so crazy that it's hurt them in my eyes. Some sound more .... desparate, for lack of a better word .... but none have shown significant pathology (yet).

"Despite deficiencies x, y, and z in your program, I think I could get good training there."

While that statement on its own is not pathological, it doesn't exactly endear the letter-writer to you. It also makes you question their judgement to some extent.

I've also received two in the last three years where the only thing that was even moderately legible was the return-address sticker. Being someone who has less than stellar hand-writing, I haven't dinged anyone for this, but I know others who would. If your hand-writing is that bad, print the note or send an e-mail.

I'm sure it's possible for someone to write such a fantastic thank you letter to be helped, but I haven't seen anyone do it. Like I said, I see it like the personal statement. In the last 5 years, I've read two that stood out in a good way. The rest have been either absolutely forgettable, or have stood out in a bad way.

Dave

 

[Wolverine98]

I should also mention that I do agree with Rubensan that if you're going to lose sleep over it or beat yourself up if you don't send them, then go ahead and do it. My point is that you shouldn't lose sleep about not sending some.

Dave

 

[orbitsurgMD]

So wondering what the SDN consensus on these two schools of thought about thank you letters is:

one says that you should send them right away so that they remember who you are (especially if you mention something unique you talked about in the interview in your letter, so it jogs their memories...). Also, some programs make their list right away (or right after their last interview date), and some programs are done interviewing so its good to send in your letter right away.

the other says yes, send it in for programs that you might not want to rank highly. but for those that are your 1-3 choices, send them somewhat in the middle/end (late Nov/Dec) so that you can tell them, "I've been on all my interviews blah blah and I think your program is the bestest one ever and I will rank you as #1" (or however youd like to phrase this)

So... anyone want to comment on a number of issues raised in the past two paragraphs, not just these two points of view?

And of course, there's another two schools on the medium for the letters. One says email, since it's easier and no one has time to read through MORE paper. The other says paper, even though it takes time to send via snail-mail but it usually goes into your file and may tip the scale in your favor when all the attendings sit around and argue. And yet, another says handwritten thank you cards... oh wait, that's 3 schools then. My bad.

Finally, a piece of advice passed on to me from seniors and I'll share it here (dunno if it was already mentioned): send a thank you note/letter to the secretary as well. These poor ladies have dealt with our crap for the past 3 months. And most of them have done a great job! Sure, it might not help your rank at a program, but its a nice thing to do.

It really isn't necessary and it really doesn't matter, either. A sheaf of thank-yous to sort and file is just another chore for the department secretary.

Unless you personally know someone on the faculty where you interviewed who did you a favor of getting you an interview slot, then I wouldn't bother.

 

[ophtho2020]

It really isn't necessary and it really doesn't matter, either. A sheaf of thank-yous to sort and file is just another chore for the department secretary.

Unless you personally know someone on the faculty where you interviewed who did you a favor of getting you an interview slot, then I wouldn't bother.

Save the environment, save their time - don't bother. Actually, one of the Program Director's actually made it a point to say in his intro that people shouldn't feel compelled to send them - as it makes absolutely no difference.

 

[ice_23]

I've been involved with the selection of residents at three extremely competitive programs and for numerous selection cycles. I have yet to see two equally ranked candidates compete for a spot. There is always something to make one candidate look better: e.g. (listed in no particular order), personal statement, AOA, grades, life experiences, research, awards, class rank, medical school, board scores, letters of recommendations, attitude, or interview performance.

I have never observed any committee member say, "This candidate sent me a nice "Thank You" letter and let's rank this student higher."

The bottom line is that committee members know that if you're sending thank you letters, then most likely you're sending it to all the programs that you interviewed at. If sending a letter makes you feel better, then do it. If it's a chore, then don't. It doesn't matter.

If you want to express your enthusiasm for a program, then do it at the interview. For instance, I knew I wanted to go to Iowa, so I told them at the interview that I am ranking them first.

Ok, so it seems that there is a consensus that writing generic, enthusiastic thank you notes is marginally helpful, at best.

But to the bolded above, how much does being that specific help you? I thought it was a match violation to do such a thing, but if other people are doing/have done it, then could you be dinged for writing an extremely enthusiastic, highly superlative filled, non match violating letter to your number one?

To put that another way, if you send a letter without mentioning how you plan to rank them, does it mean that they automatically assume you're not ranking them number 1?

-Ice

 

[ophthal3]

ice_23: I can appreciate your concern, but try not to overthink the situation. I am a fellow applicant, so take this with a grain of salt, but the dean at my school says programs always rank applicants in the order that they want them. Thats it. They will not rank you higher just b/c you tell them you are ranking them #1, in part b/c they get told this all the time; they are frequently lied to by applicants. As stated in an above post, I think it is actually detrimental to tell a program you are ranking them very highly early on in the interview season, as you are not done with interviews and are not making a carefully thought out decision. Of course it is important to show interest in and be informed about programs at interviews (if you do not, this could probably count against you). But don't expect a thank you letter to a program telling them you are ranking them #1 to change anything. At this point in the game sit back and relax until match day, you've earned it.

 

[sidehatch]

Maybe its moving into a different topic but. . .

Although telling a program in a thank you letter, phone call, email, etc., they are number one or you are ranking them highly may not change your position on their rank list, can it still be a way to gage where you stand on the rank list depending on the reply if you get one?

I have heard that a program can not contact you unless you contact them first and if you state you are ranking them highly, can they reply with the same if you are high on their list?

My guess is this is illegal or not good form on the attending's part, but I have heard from others applying for other residencies that even during the interview they are told they will be "ranked highly"

Any thoughts from the gallery?

 

[ophthal3]

Ophthalmology interviewers have indicated to me (and others I know) along the trail that I/we would be ranked highly. I can think of 3 reasons why they may be doing this: 1) they actually will be ranking the applicant highly 2) they want to see the applicant's response 3) just like every other program, their goal is to attract the best candidates. It is in the program's best interest to get all interviewees to rank them highly. Regardless, I wouldn't waste time speculating which of the 3 is actually at play. The bottom line is that you really can't trust anything you hear in an interview, as nothing is legally binding. You can certainly send a letter to a program strongly expressing your desire to match there, but I would be careful not to sound desperate. I really don't think programs will rank someone higher than they otherwise would just b/c the applicant tells them "I am ranking you #1," as programs probably hear this often. Just my 2 cents

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Ok, so it seems that there is a consensus that writing generic, enthusiastic thank you notes is marginally helpful, at best.

But to the bolded above, how much does being that specific help you? I thought it was a match violation to do such a thing, but if other people are doing/have done it, then could you be dinged for writing an extremely enthusiastic, highly superlative filled, non match violating letter to your number one?

It's not a violation if the comments are unilateral without conditions.

This is from the SFMatch.org website:

Statements of Intent

If made, such statements must be unilateral, voluntary, and unconditional. Neither party may ask the other for a commitment. A statement like: "I will rank you first if you rank me first" is against the matching rules. A statement like: "You are among the best programs/applicants I have seen so far; I appreciate meeting you regardless of how you will rank me" is permitted.

So, you're pretty much free to say "I am ranking you number #1, etc..." and they are too. Some programs take pride in how far they go down the rank list, and I know of several programs that will have the program directors or senior residents call the applicants before rank lists are submitted to express their "unilateral, voluntary, and unconditional" statements of approval to their top applicants. These programs hope to sway their top picks to rank them highly.

 

[Wolverine98]

I'll hit both topics here. A few days ago one of my colleagues received a Thank You letter that included a comment that was downright insulting to him personally. Obviously, it doesn't make sense for someone to do this intentionally, but we've looked at this from every angle we could possibly think of, and haven't found a way to interpret it that is not insulting. So again, if you're going to bother to write letters, make sure to word them carefully.

As for telling a program where you're ranking them, there's no problem with that, but most won't really care. They've been told this countless times, been lied to countless times, and, in the end, because of the match algorithm, it doesn't make a difference anyway. They'll rank you in the order that fits best with what they want. And remember, telling someone you're going to rank them #1 and then not doing it can come back to bite you you-know-where down the road, like when you're applying for jobs or fellowships; don't think those PD's don't remember who did this. I know of two applicants who lied to a PD about ranking his program #1 (in written letters), and then didn't. They were quite surprised when, by a lucky conincidence, that they ended up having to work with him during their second and third years. He said he had a very hard time letting them do much in his clinic and in surgery because they had already created some basic trust issues.

On the converse side, if you're contacted by a program and told that you'll be ranked highly, take that with a huge bucketful of grains of salt. An example (non-ophthalmology): in my med-school class, one program called 4 people and told them each that they would be ranked #1 on the list. You can argue that semantically it's fine, depending on how large the program is, but that was only a 3 person program. The one person who believed to them and ranked them #1 didn't match there.

Also, if you don't hear from a program, don't assume that's a lack of interest. Many programs will play it by the book and absolutely will not contact you. Lichter at Michigan tells everyone this on the interview day (at least, he used to).

Dave

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I'll hit both topics here. A few days ago one of my colleagues received a Thank You letter that included a comment that was downright insulting to him personally. Obviously, it doesn't make sense for someone to do this intentionally, but we've looked at this from every angle we could possibly think of, and haven't found a way to interpret it that is not insulting. So again, if you're going to bother to write letters, make sure to word them carefully.

As for telling a program where you're ranking them, there's no problem with that, but most won't really care. They've been told this countless times, been lied to countless times, and, in the end, because of the match algorithm, it doesn't make a difference anyway. They'll rank you in the order that fits best with what they want. And remember, telling someone you're going to rank them #1 and then not doing it can come back to bite you you-know-where down the road, like when you're applying for jobs or fellowships; don't think those PD's don't remember who did this. I know of two applicants who lied to a PD about ranking his program #1 (in written letters), and then didn't. They were quite surprised when, by a lucky conincidence, that they ended up having to work with him during their second and third years. He said he had a very hard time letting them do much in his clinic and in surgery because they had already created some basic trust issues.

On the converse side, if you're contacted by a program and told that you'll be ranked highly, take that with a huge bucketful of grains of salt. An example (non-ophthalmology): in my med-school class, one program called 4 people and told them each that they would be ranked #1 on the list. You can argue that semantically it's fine, depending on how large the program is, but that was only a 3 person program. The one person who believed to them and ranked them #1 didn't match there.

Also, if you don't hear from a program, don't assume that's a lack of interest. Many programs will play it by the book and absolutely will not contact you. Lichter at Michigan tells everyone this on the interview day (at least, he used to).

Dave

Good advice above! In the end, this is a business relationship and both parties want the most favorable outcome.

 

[BlinkBlink]

I have never observed any committee member say, "This candidate sent me a nice "Thank You" letter and let's rank this student higher."

While I've only interviewed applicants for medical school positions and not residency, I imagine things aren't that different. I totally agree with the above - getting a thank you note has never changed my mind about an applicant. If I didn't like the applicant, I still didn't like him/her; if I already liked him/her, the fondness only grew. I guess, bottom line, it can only help (if only for a little)... but don't think it's going to make or break you, so decide for yourself if it's worth the time and carpal tunnel...