terrible mcat

[OrGoMan]

Basically, here are my stats:

I just got my 19M on the mcat
GPA: 3.74
BCMP GPA: 3.63

I have 2 years of research at top notch institution
hospital volunteer work
Leadership: Class president for a year
tutor
bunch of awards..

I have an interview at SGU, but they gave it to me before mcat scores came out. Do you guys feel that I have a chance at SGU or ROSS? I'm just applying to Ross now.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Bevo]

if you get in, you get in. if you dont, you dont. None of us sit on the respective admission committes.

Only 1 way to find out. Apply, interview and see what they say.

 

[spyyder]

orgoman, I sent you a PM

 

[richmond_repn]

are you crazy man? with that kind of gpa you should study hard and retake the MCAT because you can easily get into US schools. Caribbean is a last resort its always gonna be there, if I were you, I would study super hard for the MCAT and aim for like mid 20's because your gpa is strong, US is always gonna be better then Caribbean (not knocking Caribbean)

 

[erichaj]

You may want to think about either retaking the mcat or even a DO program.

Some people have very high GPA such as yourself, but do poorly on standard tests like the MCAT.

There are lost of reasons for this. Or, you may have had a bad day.

Anyway, one route is an IMG program. But it may not be the fastest. They say 3.5 years to M.D. If you speak to most IMG grads they will tell you it takes about 4 to 4 to 5 years. Mostly because of waiting during clinical rotations.

 

[leviathan]

Basically, here are my stats:

I just got my 19M on the mcat
GPA: 3.74
BCMP GPA: 3.63

I have 2 years of research at top notch institution
hospital volunteer work
Leadership: Class president for a year
tutor
bunch of awards..

I have an interview at SGU, but they gave it to me before mcat scores came out. Do you guys feel that I have a chance at SGU or ROSS? I'm just applying to Ross now.

How does one get 3.74 in university and then do so poorly on the MCAT? I'm not trying to be rude, just understand how that can happen...is your university exceptionally easy, or did you just have a REALLY bad day on the MCAT? Or, did your university not teach you the same type of material found on the MCAT?

Edit: By the way, with a GPA that high, definitely retake the MCAT. I'm sure you can do MUCH better next time and get into a US school. Good luck.

 

[McGillGrad]

How does one get 3.74 in university and then do so poorly on the MCAT? I'm not trying to be rude, just understand how that can happen...is your university exceptionally easy, or did you just have a REALLY bad day on the MCAT? Or, did your university not teach you the same type of material found on the MCAT?

Edit: By the way, with a GPA that high, definitely retake the MCAT. I'm sure you can do MUCH better next time and get into a US school. Good luck.

Since I have been to American and Canadian universities, I can take a stab. American schools are not as tough and some majors are easier than others.

If you are taking history and you LOVE history then your GPA will reflect that.

 

[jays2cool4u]

Since I have been to American and Canadian universities, I can take a stab. American schools are not as tough and some majors are easier than others.

If you are taking history and you LOVE history then your GPA will reflect that.

Poor MCAT = American Schools are not tough and you had an easy major.
Not a good assumption. Try again.

Jays2cool4u

 

[McGillGrad]

Poor MCAT = American Schools are not tough and you had an easy major.
Not a good assumption. Try again.

Jays2cool4u

Who are you again?

 

[jays2cool4u]

Who are you again?

I am someone who does not make poor assumptions.

Jays2cool4u

 

[McGillGrad]

I am someone who does not make poor assumptions.

Jays2cool4u

That's what I thought. No input, just criticism. You certianly are too cool for school, Jay.

Now, I know for a fact that you have not attended Canadian and American universities so you are the one who is making assumptions since you do not have the experience to form any type of opinion.

Lesson is over, LLDroolJay

 

[jays2cool4u]

That's what I thought. No input, just criticism. You certianly are too cool for school, Jay.

Now, I know for a fact that you have not attended Canadian and American universities so you are the one who is making assumptions since you do not have the experience to form any type of opinion.

Lesson is over, LLDroolJay

Your correlation between a poor MCAT and attending an American University is absurd. The op could be a very poor standardized test taker or simply did not prepare well for the MCAT. There are many students at lower tier schools in the U.S. that rock the MCAT. So if, American University = Poor MCAT, then why are there so many Americans who earn scores of 30 or above? I don't know why. Since you are the expert maybe you can explain this phenomenon to me.

By the way, we can have an intelligent conversation without name calling right?


Jays2cool4u

 

[McGillGrad]

Your correlation between a poor MCAT and attending an American University is absurd. The op could be a very poor standardized test taker or simply did not prepare well for the MCAT.

I answered a Canadian student's question about how a high GPA can be attained with a super-low MCAT. The answer is that US universities are notorious for grade inflation or the person liked their major.

There are many students at lower tier schools in the U.S. that rock the MCAT.

They finally learn how to study in med school.

So if, American University = Poor MCAT, then why are there so many Americans who earn scores of 30 or above? I don't know why. Since you are the expert maybe you can explain this phenomenon to me.

You are still making assumptions.

By the way, we can have an intelligent conversation without name calling right?


Jays2cool4u

It's more fun this way. Plus your username is pretty much asking for it.

 

[jays2cool4u]

The answer is that US universities are notorious for grade inflation or the person liked their major.

Since when? I didn't get that memo. I went to PITT for ungergrad and I go to Harvard Extension for a couple of classes and there is no evidence of grade inflation. My best friend went to Alabama A&M- no grade inflation. My pops just got his master's at George Mason Univ. in Northern Virginia - no grade inflation. Maybe you can fax that memo over to me. Someone is keeping these things from me...


Also, unless you matriculated at 2,3, or 300 colleges in America it's certainly not accurate to make a judgment on all American schools.

Jays2Cool4u

 

[jays2cool4u]

They finally learn how to study in med school.

What does this have to do with doing well on the MCAT from a lower tier school?

 

[McGillGrad]

Since when? I didn't get that memo. I went to PITT for ungergrad and I go to Harvard Extension for a couple of classes and there is no evidence of grade inflation. My best friend went to Alabama A&M- no grade inflation. My pops just got his master's at George Mason Univ. in Northern Virginia - no grade inflation. Maybe you can fax that memo over to me. Someone is keeping these things from me...

Your ignorance of a common fact is not my problem.

Here is one of numerous articles discussing it.

From the Carnegie Foundation

http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/perspectives/perspectives2004.June.htm

 

[McGillGrad]

What does this have to do with doing well on the MCAT from a lower tier school?

Bad GPAs and good MCAT's = lower tier.

 

[jays2cool4u]

Bad GPAs and good MCAT's = lower tier.

You quote one article and now its a common fact? I guess PITT needs to hop on the band wagon and start inflating grades asap. MCAT speaks for itself. It has nothing to do with the school but more of how one prepared for the exam. You should win a nobel prize for your formula.

By the way, why is Canada always concerned about whats going on in America?

Jays2Cool4u

 

[McGillGrad]

You quote won article and now its a common fact?

hahahaha..hard to admit you are wrong, huh sweetie?

It will get easier once you mature.

 

[jays2cool4u]

hahahaha..hard to admit you are wrong, huh sweetie?

It will get easier once you mature.

That was a typo and you know it!! LOL

Jays2Cool4u

 

[leviathan]

Since I have been to American and Canadian universities, I can take a stab. American schools are not as tough and some majors are easier than others.

If you are taking history and you LOVE history then your GPA will reflect that.

True, but even his BCPM (or whatever that acronym is) GPA is high...that should reflect your ability on the MCAT exam, in my opinion. My Bio + Chem GPA is good (4.0) and my MCAT seemed to reflect that. I didn't need to study that much for the MCAT because I knew the material from the classes I've taken.

For the other poster, what do you know about scaling at US schools? Canadian schools scale a LOT to prevent grade inflation.

 

[Wertt]

I graduated from U of Toronto in Canada, they had a policy that in all first and second year courses, the average could not be above C+ without the professor writing a letter of explanation, and no more than 20% of students could be awarded an A- or higher.

at Harvard, over 50% of students get A's.

Hence, a GPA from the 'top' Canadian school means more than a high GPA from the 'top' American college

 

[OwnageMobile]

:"oh SNAP" smilie:


yeah, **** was inflated quite a bit for some majors at KU, but all my engineering courses were C average.

 

[ronin13]

The problem with that article is that it only supports half of your argument.

Grade inflation seems to be a problem in many universities (Ivy Leagues included) in the US. However, it doesn't mention Canadian universities at all. Perhaps these same problems apply to us.

Anecdotally, I went to a Canadian university, and never had a course grade scaled. Class averages ranged from A- to C, with B- probably being the most common.

What does that prove? Nothing.

 

[Wertt]

One could argue that if this was as big a problem at Canadian institutions someone would have written an article about it as well

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

I graduated from U of Toronto in Canada, they had a policy that in all first and second year courses, the average could not be above C+ without the professor writing a letter of explanation, and no more than 20% of students could be awarded an A- or higher.

at Harvard, over 50% of students get A's.

Hence, a GPA from the 'top' Canadian school means more than a high GPA from the 'top' American college

I hope you're not considering a career in science.

Did you ever consider there might be some confounding variables here? Like maybe Harvard only takes the cream of the crop and any old loser can get into U of T?

 

[Wertt]

I hope you're not considering a career in science.

Did you ever consider there might be some confounding variables here? Like maybe Harvard only takes the cream of the crop and any old loser can get into U of T?

I would say it's much more likely that the snobbery at Harvard creates a sense of entitlement on behalf of some of the students, which can only be fulfilled by easy classes - or daddy might stop giving money!

U of Toronto is considered the most difficult university in Canada, both class wise and in terms of gaining acceptance. Harvard can speak to only one of these.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

I would say it's much more likely that the snobbery at Harvard creates a sense of entitlement on behalf of some of the students, which can only be fulfilled by easy classes - or daddy might stop giving money!

U of Toronto is considered the most difficult university in Canada, both class wise and in terms of gaining acceptance. Harvard can speak to only one of these.

Specious arguments with no supporting data; please tell me this is not a hallmark of the "superior" Canadian secondary system.

 

[ronin13]

I would say it's much more likely that the snobbery at Harvard creates a sense of entitlement on behalf of some of the students, which can only be fulfilled by easy classes - or daddy might stop giving money!

U of Toronto is considered the most difficult university in Canada, both class wise and in terms of gaining acceptance. Harvard can speak to only one of these.

I don't mean to be antagonistic (really!), but since I've moved to Toronto from the east coast (where I went to university), I've heard time and time again that U of T is Canada's best university, and have heard it referred to as "Harvard North" more times than I care to remember.

Your school is of high quality, but that smarter-than-though attitude is BS, sorry.

Since university education in Canada is funded by the government (i.e. no private institutions like Harvard), undergrad education is (FOR THE MOST PART) equivalent no matter where you go. There are exceptions of course, a small liberal arts college with no lab space is not going to have a fantastic chemistry program, and some programs (like Western's business school) have a reputation of being the best.

But let's say you're entering a standard science program. What's the acceptance rate at U of T into the undergrad program from high school? It's comparable to most large universities in Canada. It isn't NEARLY as selective as Harvard. If you've got an 80-85 average in high school, you'll get into any university in Canada.

But you know what? A chemistry degree from Dalhousie is the same as a chemistry degree from U of T is the same as a chemistry degree from UBC is the same as a chemistry degree from University of Regina.

What's U of T's claim to fame? The money they have for researchers? Since I work in a university affiliated hospital (doing clinical research), I see the high quality research that's done here, and it's impressive. It's the best in Canada, no doubt about it. And will you have access to it as an undergrad? Hell no.

U of T has many widely respected professors, award winners, etc. So you have a nobel prize winner teaching you organic chemistry...so what? He/she won't be teaching you anything related to their work (far too advanced), and achievement in research doesn't always equate to effective teaching style.

Now if you're talking GRADUATE programs, it's a different story. U of T is the place to be in Canada. This is where you see the difference.

Really, I'm sorry to get all ranty on you, but it's just one of my pet peeves. I'm really not knocking your school, U of T is fantastic, but so are most of the other universities in Canada.

 

[JPagan]

I think Mcill made an excellent point in one of his earlier posts and everyone seems to be ignoring it...

The biggest reason why some applicants apply with such a high GPA is because they were a non-science major. Hummanities and social science classes when compared to bio or chem classes are MUCH easier...

IF you take ONLY the pre-reqs for medical school it is fairly easy to get a high BCPM GPA... If you take one science class at a time and the rest are, like Mcill mentioned, History or psychology or english, or political science, and the list continues ad nauseum.

There are very smart students go the non-science major route and then study hard and do well on the MCAT, that is true... If I could do it all over again I would have majored in undergrad in something more enjoyable and saved all the hard science for medical school.

In conclusion, yes as a WHOLE america is known for their grade inflation, the particular school I was at I only saw it slightly in small upper div classes. In the large science classes there was a strict curve = max 15% A's... Now if you take an entire course load of classes where only the top 15% get A's, the odds of you getting a close to 4.0 GPA diminishes quickly!! However, take a few of those and fill in the rest of the schedule with hummanities classes with NO Curve, where you are graded on a straight scale, all of a sudden you get a much better GPA...

One more point... The reason a lot of schools inflate their grades is to help out their graduates.. THe better the GPA the better the schools rep and the better the grads do. In my undergrad parisitology class my teacher told us that it was the largest undergrad parisitology class in the world, and therefore it was imperative that we almost all get A's and B's... That is grade inflation it does happen.

To the OP....
If you feel like you can do better on the MCAT retake it, I am willing to bet that deep down inside you know whether this was a fluke or not. If it was a fluke, then definitely try again. If not the caribbean is a definitely alternative, if you want an honest view of it check out valuemd... People on there are either considering it or went there so you can get a more informed view than on studentdoctor...

Peace

 

[Wertt]

Your school is of high quality, but that smarter-than-though attitude is BS, sorry.

I think you'll note I didn't say that U of T has smarter people, only that a high GPA from U of T means more than a high GPA from Harvard.

I agree that there are many great Canadian schools, however I stand by the assertion that U of T is more difficult in terms of classes. I have spoken to med students on the adcom at UofT and other schools who say that straight up, it's best to go to another university in Canada if you want to attend med school, simply because it's more likely you will have a 3.9+ GPA.

As to the often-cited argument that all Harvard students are a homogenous group of geniuses and that therefore it is no surprise that they all get A's in university, well, think that any good school will challenge students, and any good professor can say "hmm, all my students are getting a's, maybe I should kick it up a notch". It is false to think that you can't differentiate between students coasting along and those who want to take it to a higher level.

Also, isn't it more likely that a school would institute an anti-grade inflation policy (such as U of Toronto) when their students are more 'in danger' of all doing well?

Harvard only takes the cream of the crop and any old loser can get into U of T? ... Specious arguments with no supporting data

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Harvard only takes the cream of the crop and any old loser can get into U of T? ... Specious arguments with no supporting data

If you're going to be a good doctor you need to better examine the information presented to you. I never said Harvard was superiior to U of T, fact of the matter is I don't know (notice it was deliberately in the form of a question, a sarcastic one at that); I haven't seen any studies and I haven't attended either institution, so I would be assine to try to make that argument, especially considering we are all striving to be scientists and that type of BS doesn't fly in this community. Maybe you have not figured that out and the nuances of the scientific method are not clear to you yet.

The fact is you tried to make conclusions based on cursory anecdotal information ("well if Harvard has an A average and I know U of T is the best, so that means Canadian schools are better." or "well if there's no studies done on U of T inflation that must tell us something.") Argument based on lack of evidence: any undergrad freshman should know that's not a valid way to make an argument.

BTW, nice selective editing of my post, more intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Wertt]

If you're going to be a good doctor you need to better examine the information presented to you. I never said Harvard was superiior to U of T, fact of the matter is I don't know (notice it was deliberately in the form of a question, a sarcastic one at that); I haven't seen any studies and I haven't attended either institution, so I would be assine to try to make that argument, especially considering we are all striving to be scientists and that type of BS doesn't fly in this community. Maybe you have not figured that out and the nuances of the scientific method are not clear to you yet.

The fact is you tried to make conclusions based on cursory anecdotal information ("well if Harvard has an A average and I know U of T is the best, so that means Canadian schools are better." or "well if there's no studies done on U of T inflation that must tell us something.") Argument based on lack of evidence: any undergrad freshman should know that's not a valid way to make an argument.

BTW, nice selective editing of my post, more intellectual dishonesty.

Since when is SDN a bastion of 'the nuances of the scientific process' - I find it laughable how much you suddenly want to be fair and rational with your arguments after your flippant insult. Lighten up dude, we're just talking about our own experiences and feelings - no need to get offended that i haven't posted any SPSS output files to back up my claims.

 

[ronin13]

I have spoken to med students on the adcom at UofT and other schools who say that straight up, it's best to go to another university in Canada if you want to attend med school, simply because it's more likely you will have a 3.9+ GPA.

I don't think that's a reflection of course difficulty, but more a product of the social structure and lack of professor/student interaction at U of T.

 

[Wertt]

I don't think that's a reflection of course difficulty, but more a product of the social structure and lack of professor/student interaction at U of T.

Touche. That definitely contributes - especially in huge first and second year classes. Still, the grading policies are there, and explicit.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Since when is SDN a bastion of 'the nuances of the scientific process' - I find it laughable how much you suddenly want to be fair and rational with your arguments after your flippant insult. Lighten up dude, we're just talking about our own experiences and feelings - no need to get offended that i haven't posted any SPSS output files to back up my claims.

I wasn't offended at all, more amused by your poor reasoning and the funny way you reached the conclusion that top Canadian schools are better. I imagine your conclusions are driven more by nationalism than anything else, and to me that is sad to see in an aspiring doc.

But if that's all you got, that's all you got. Don't concern yourself with backing yourself out of this corner, I'll leave you alone.

 

[Trader56]

Ok, I'll add my two cents here.

I see these posts on SDN and ValueMD with some regularity. They usually involve a decent GPA (sometimes not) and a low MCAT, often taken more than once. The question asked is always, "What are my chances of getting IN to school X?" I think this is the wrong question.

The question that's more useful is, "What are my chances of finishing, and passing the USMLE Steps I, II, and III?"

There have been numerous studies that have shown strong correlations between MCAT scores and Step scores - in fact, it seems like a new one (or more) come out each year. Some of these have shown the MCAT to be a much better predictor of success than undergrad GPA's. Go to MedLine and type in "MCAT AND USMLE" and see for yourself. Now, this always seems to piss people off, but it's been shown repeatedly.

Are there people who didn't study correctly (and if so, why, since there are LOTS of resources), or were sick (then why did you take the test)? Sure. Are those the major reasons people don't do well on the MCAT? No.

Saying you're just "not good with standardized tests" is tantamount to admitting you're going to have real trouble in med school (LOTS of multiple-choice tests!!), have real difficulty with boards, in-service exams, and board certification exams.

It would be best to find out now why someone is not doing well on "standardized tests" and either fix the problem, or chose a different career path.

 

[leviathan]

I would say it's much more likely that the snobbery at Harvard creates a sense of entitlement on behalf of some of the students, which can only be fulfilled by easy classes - or daddy might stop giving money!

U of Toronto is considered the most difficult university in Canada, both class wise and in terms of gaining acceptance. Harvard can speak to only one of these.

Just a side note, UBC is the hardest university in Canada to gain acceptance to. By virtue of the only factor for entry at most universities in Canada being your high school GPA, UBC's GPA cut-offs are the highest. I believe UT only looks at your GPA as well.

 

[Katalio]

Just a side note, UBC is the hardest university in Canada to gain acceptance to. By virtue of the only factor for entry at most universities in Canada being your high school GPA, UBC's GPA cut-offs are the highest. I believe UT only looks at your GPA as well.

I heard they raised the bar again this yr for UBC science acceptances.

 

[leviathan]

I heard they raised the bar again this yr for UBC science acceptances.

I believe it was at a minimum 88% average last year for applicants to the faculty of science.

 

[McGillGrad]

I blame it on all of the Ontarians that were shook up after the change in school structure that unleashed a wave or rabid mountain climbing hippies on Quebec and BC.

 

[leviathan]

I blame it on all of the Ontarians that were shook up after the change in school structure that unleashed a wave or rabid mountain climbing hippies on Quebec and BC.

Exactly! Same rabid mountain climbing hippies that I have to fight against for a seat in a Canadian med school.

 

[rochemd]

I have very similar GPA with slightly higher MCAT scores and I got into Ross.
Do not worry. If you do not get in, you can always take the MCATs again.
Good Luck Orgoman on interviewing

 

[ezal36]

Apply to vcom,unecom,wsvom,pscom,and lecom. You should be able to get into one of these with your grades.

 

[winstonm]

I don't mean to be antagonistic (really!), but since I've moved to Toronto from the east coast (where I went to university), I've heard time and time again that U of T is Canada's best university, and have heard it referred to as "Harvard North" more times than I care to remember.

Your school is of high quality, but that smarter-than-though attitude is BS, sorry.

Since university education in Canada is funded by the government (i.e. no private institutions like Harvard), undergrad education is (FOR THE MOST PART) equivalent no matter where you go. There are exceptions of course, a small liberal arts college with no lab space is not going to have a fantastic chemistry program, and some programs (like Western's business school) have a reputation of being the best.

But let's say you're entering a standard science program. What's the acceptance rate at U of T into the undergrad program from high school? It's comparable to most large universities in Canada. It isn't NEARLY as selective as Harvard. If you've got an 80-85 average in high school, you'll get into any university in Canada.

But you know what? A chemistry degree from Dalhousie is the same as a chemistry degree from U of T is the same as a chemistry degree from UBC is the same as a chemistry degree from University of Regina.

What's U of T's claim to fame? The money they have for researchers? Since I work in a university affiliated hospital (doing clinical research), I see the high quality research that's done here, and it's impressive. It's the best in Canada, no doubt about it. And will you have access to it as an undergrad? Hell no.

U of T has many widely respected professors, award winners, etc. So you have a nobel prize winner teaching you organic chemistry...so what? He/she won't be teaching you anything related to their work (far too advanced), and achievement in research doesn't always equate to effective teaching style.

Now if you're talking GRADUATE programs, it's a different story. U of T is the place to be in Canada. This is where you see the difference.

Really, I'm sorry to get all ranty on you, but it's just one of my pet peeves. I'm really not knocking your school, U of T is fantastic, but so are most of the other universities in Canada.

Ummm...you don't know what you're talking about. My pet peeve...the "every school in Canada is equal" line trumpeted over and over again, especially in relation to the fact that schools are government supported (education is a provincial responsibility, not federal). I guess you'd argue that every US state school is equivalent too? I'm sure the kids at Berkeley, Michigan, UNC and UVA would have something to say about that.

Have you taken undergrad classes at UofT and other Canadian schools? I have, and from my experience, UofT is MUCH harder. The average entering grade at Toronto is only slightly lower than at Queen's, which is about 1/4 the size. Can you get into UofT with an 80% highschool average...sure, if you're doing a large humanities program. You won't get anywhere near the main campus for science, commerce, eng etc. with that, especially at Victoria and Trinity colleges. Engineering Science, one of the top undergrad engineering programs in the world, won't look at you if you have less than a 93%. There are programs at other schools (HealthSci at Mac, the IBBA at York, CompEng at Waterloo) that also require 90s so your 80-85% bit is wrong. Re: UBC...I think Queen's had the highest average entering grades according to Maclean's...UofT is 4x the size and was about one-and-change percent lower...I don't know where UBC was.

No access to research as an undergrad? Wrong again. There are thesis requirements, a 2nd year research course, dozens of summer programs...in one physiology course I was taught by the head cardiac surgeon at Sick Kids and the person who developed the ABO-incompatible protocol for peds heart transplants. I heard 4 Nobel winners speak in one day a few years ago at the Gairdener Awards symposium. While accomplished researchers aren't automatically good teachers, they aren't automatically poor ones either. I can assure you that John Polanyi is too busy to teach something "unrealted" to his research. Toronto simply presents opportunities that are unmatched in this country.

Now, there are areas in which other Cdn. schools trump Toronto, particularly in class sizes at the lower levels, creating a cozy university feeling and on the football field. Each school also has it's own elite programs, but on the whole, UofT is probably the best school in Canada.

Is it Harvard...no...we don't have a Harvard or Yale here. Harvard has unmatched resources, I personally like the common curriculum present at most top US undergrad colleges, and Toronto obviously isn't as competitive to get into on the whole (though UofT's entrance process isn't as subjective and potentially politicized and the Ivies consistently let in athletes that wouldn't get into UofT...check the Toronto Star high school all-stars page in the spring and look at the avg.'s). But I seriously doubt that the 50% of people getting honours at Harvard would all get A's at Toronto.

 

[TSisk23]

I graduated from U of Toronto in Canada, they had a policy that in all first and second year courses, the average could not be above C+ without the professor writing a letter of explanation, and no more than 20% of students could be awarded an A- or higher.

at Harvard, over 50% of students get A's.

Hence, a GPA from the 'top' Canadian school means more than a high GPA from the 'top' American college

I say compete with someone who graduated with the same degree as you from Harvard with approximately the same GPA as you recieved at U of T and let me know how far it gets you. My guess is not very...this is not to say that the U of T is not a great school because I believe you that it is. But one is living in a dream world if they think their degree from U of T means as much as one from Harvard. Travel the globe and find out your schools reputation vs. Harvard's. I promise that if everything beyond your degree was equal and you were going after the same job you would lose everytime. Frankly your statement is way false...in most cases C's at Harvard mean 10 times what they do at most institutions. The problem you have is Harvard and schools of its caliber in the US are known for producing Nobel Laureates and I am not sure U of T can say that. So like it or not pretty much anything from your school in the world will not mean as much as the same from Harvard or an equal caliber institution in the US. But as I said before this doesnt mean you are not getting an awesome education because I bet you are...probably better than mine. But you can't just throw the facts aside out of national pride. Most countries recognize the Harvard name. That's why they come from their country to study there. Aside from yourself I'm not sure anyone in their right mind would pass up the Harvard education for the one at U of T.

 

[TSisk23]

One could argue that if this was as big a problem at Canadian institutions someone would have written an article about it as well

On another note...one could argue that nobody cares about Canada except Candada and that's why they didn't write an article.

 

[McGillGrad]

Each school also has it's own elite programs, but on the whole, UofT is probably the best school in Canada.

Seeing how McGill unseated UofT as top medical school, I beg to differ.

Maclean's 2005.

 

[ronin13]

Have you taken undergrad classes at UofT and other Canadian schools?

Yes.

I have, and from my experience, UofT is MUCH harder.

That's YOUR experience. Others have had different experiences. That doesn't make it an absolute.

Engineering Science, one of the top undergrad engineering programs in the world, won't look at you if you have less than a 93%. There are programs at other schools (HealthSci at Mac, the IBBA at York, CompEng at Waterloo) that also require 90s so your 80-85% bit is wrong.

I believe I recognized (in my original post) the fact that there are several PROFESSIONAL undergrad programs throughout the country with excellent reputations. I'm not arguing this point. You want a good engineering program? Go to U of T. You want a good drama program? Go to Concordia. But if you're looking at a degree in basic sciences, most Canadian universities can provide a solid education.

No access to research as an undergrad? Wrong again. There are thesis requirements, a 2nd year research course, dozens of summer programs...in one physiology course I was taught by the head cardiac surgeon at Sick Kids and the person who developed the ABO-incompatible protocol for peds heart transplants. I heard 4 Nobel winners speak in one day a few years ago at the Gairdener Awards symposium. While accomplished researchers aren't automatically good teachers, they aren't automatically poor ones either. I can assure you that John Polanyi is too busy to teach something "unrealted" to his research. Toronto simply presents opportunities that are unmatched in this country.

I didn't say you don't have access to research as an undergrad. I said your chances of working with one of the world-renowned researchers at UofT are slim to none. If anything, these professors are LESS accessible, due to the intense competitive environment at U of T (i.e. more students fighting for even the most worthless lab rat job in their lab). At my smallish undergrad university, I was able to work with a famous Yale-alumnus on my thesis, and without much pleading. Given the choice between cleaning Tak Mak's test tubes and working one-on-one with a well known (but perhaps not world famous) researcher, I think you can tell which choice I'd make. But that's me.

Your example of the physiology class only proves my point. Just because your professor was an incredibly intelligent and accomplished individual doesn't change the fact that he/she was teaching BASIC PHYSIOLOGY. If they're teaching you advanced heart surgery techniques, their expertise is invaluable, but that's a bit farther down the road.

And I agree that there are many more opportunities to hear accomplished individuals speak, but a one-hour lecture is hardly a significant portion of your undergraduate education. Of course, it doesn't hurt either

Again, not bashing Toronto, or trying to degrade the quality of education. It's just a pet peeve of mine.

Seeing how McGill unseated UofT as top medical school, I beg to differ.

Maclean's 2005.

Maclean's doesn't rate medical schools, they rate "medical doctoral" schools, looking moreso at PhD programs than undergrad med programs. I find most people in academia (at least those that I know) think the Maclean's rankings are meaningless at best.

Also, you might want to note that McGill and Toronto technically tied.

 

[McGillGrad]

Maclean's doesn't rate medical schools, they rate "medical doctoral" schools, looking moreso at PhD programs than undergrad med programs. I find most people in academia (at least those that I know) think the Maclean's rankings are meaningless at best.

Also, you might want to note that McGill and Toronto technically tied.

Yes, when bragging about UofT, MacLean's is quoted but when McGill removes them from the top, MacLean's becomes meaningless. Sour Grapes, anyone?