Tales from the job search

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Just wanted to start a thread for fellows who are currently searching for a job to start next summer. Are you finding opportunities? How are you going about the search? What is your timeline looking like?

I thought this would be a good way to get some real time data not only on the job market but in general how to look for a job, what works and doesn't work, etc, etc.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Current fellow looking for a job for 2011. Have sent out a few CVs and gotten interest from a couple of places. One said it was too soon. The other has offered me an interview. I'm findings jobs online and from recruiters contacting me.
 
Current fellow looking for a job for 2011. Have sent out a few CVs and gotten interest from a couple of places. One said it was too soon. The other has offered me an interview. I'm findings jobs online and from recruiters contacting me.

Sounds like the job market is good this year
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Sounds like the job market is good this year

Oh definitely . . . this one post is so reassuring, i think i am perfectly satisfied with it being representative of the national trends. no more job market surveys CAP, its in the bag!

pathstudent . . . you have almost single-handedly destroyed this forum. over the last 12-24 months, your diatribes, assumptions and pretentious banter on nearly every single thread has not only dissuaded myself, but clearly many other vets on here from returning to this forum. all i ask is that you stop being stupid. otherwise, your participation is warmly welcomed and encouraged . . .
 
Oh definitely . . . this one post is so reassuring, i think i am perfectly satisfied with it being representative of the national trends. no more job market surveys CAP, its in the bag!

pathstudent . . . you have almost single-handedly destroyed this forum. over the last 12-24 months, your diatribes, assumptions and pretentious banter on nearly every single thread has not only dissuaded myself, but clearly many other vets on here from returning to this forum. all i ask is that you stop being stupid. otherwise, your participation is warmly welcomed and encouraged . . .

Evidently it didn't dissuade you enough.

A guy has two bites a year out. That sounds positive to me.
 
Please educate yourself.

It is not only the quantity (which is abysmal anyway) but also the quality (which is downright horrible) of the jobs available that matters.

Right now we are probably at our worst as regards the job market.

Consider a recently posted job . This job is screaming "exploitation" . Read for yourself (I have bolded my objection for those who want to skip reading the entire joke.

AZ, TUCSON - Northwest Medical Center
Single specialty Pathology group is seeking to add 1 BE/BC Pathologist (all candidates must be AP and CP certified) to be employed by the group (New graduates are welcome!). Placement for this need will not be until 2011, ideally not until 6/2011 or 7/2011. No autopsy or paps required. Hospital based surgical pathology lab.Currently the practice consists of 5 Pathologists. The current call coverage is one full week of call at a time, every fourth weekend.

These kinds of jobs are a "slap in the face". Essentially you will be working in a "pod lab" of other pathologists working harder than the employer pathologists, but earning on-tenth of what they do and probably getting half the time they get for vacations.

Getting such a job is slightly better than getting no job at all.

 
These kinds of jobs are a "slap in the face". Essentially you will be working in a "pod lab" of other pathologists working harder than the employer pathologists, but earning on-tenth of what they do and probably getting half the time they get for vacations.

Getting such a job is slightly better than getting no job at all.

I don't think this is a pod lab job. It states right in the ad that the position is a hospital based surgical pathology lab, which I presume is the 274 bed Northwest Medical Center.

I also don't take affront to being employed by the group. To me this simply means that the hospital doesn't directly employ the pathologists. The notion that this is a free standing group that contracts services to the hospital should be comforting. No doubt if the ad said "employed by the hospital" you would be having a cow for different reasons.

The only concerning aspect of this job posting, IMHO, is that it doesn't mention partnership. That would certainly make the position less appealing. I turned down a job this past year because there was no defined partnership track (other than waiting for one of the current partners to retire/die).

As for the work/vacation/salary issue, this may or may not be true. The more senior members of my group (which is almost everyone) definitely work hard, and they make more than me and get more vacation than me. But seniority has its privileges, you know? It would actually be rather strange if every new hire had pay and time off equal with the guys who have been there for 20+ years. I agree that there are abusive situations out there, I just don't yet see any evidence that this is one of them.
 
1."Pod Lab" was an analogy, in the sense of somone else "skimming off" your professional component to fatten their wallets.

2. A pathology group which after a mutually agreed upon period (say two years or preferably less) continues to disallow you from sharing equally in the income generated by the group is "exploitative" and should be labeled as such.
 
1."Pod Lab" was an analogy, in the sense of somone else "skimming off" your professional component to fatten their wallets.

2. A pathology group which after a mutually agreed upon period (say two years or preferably less) continues to disallow you from sharing equally in the income generated by the group is "exploitative" and should be labeled as such.

Agreed. How again is the above job posting "screaming" this?
 
To be employed by the group.

Employed= Fixed salary position.

By the group= Group is an independent contractor to the hospital (at least all of the professional fees generated by the group, including the clinical fees go the group from which the partners "elect" to pay a fixed amount to the hire, while dividing the rest between themselves).

In essence, the hire sees only a "small amount" of what he/she generates professionally while the rest fattens the wallets of the hiring pathologists.

Screams "exploitation".
 
To be employed by the group.

Employed= Fixed salary position.

By the group= Group is an independent contractor to the hospital (at least all of the professional fees generated by the group, including the clinical fees go the group from which the partners "elect" to pay a fixed amount to the hire, while dividing the rest between themselves).

In essence, the hire sees only a "small amount" of what he/she generates professionally while the rest fattens the wallets of the hiring pathologists.

Screams "exploitation".

Maybe yes. Maybe no. And isn't that true about almost entry level job that everyone takes in the country? If you have an MBA and join Goldman Sachs, aren't you an employee? Does a junior lawyer get 100% of what she bills?
And why should you get 100% of what you sign-out right from the start? They built up the practice, got the outpatient business going. Why shouldn't you put in a few years before getting an even cut? If you work hard, keep clinicians satisfied, and are nice to interact with, they will do what they have to do to keep you happy.

I am so sick and tired of all these guys that have jobs saying there are no jobs. Like that guy BDunwood who claimed he had to take a lawn mowing job to feed his wife and child as there were no pathology jobs. I called that one immediately even though other people were "yeah the job market sucks". It turns out he has a job in pathology.

Now I say something mildly positive about a guy who has the ball rolling and artic char goes off on me. I guess I should have said the job market sucked.
 
To be employed by the group.

Employed= Fixed salary position.

What would you prefer? Instant partnership? Every colleague I can think of who has gone private practice out of training has had a fixed salary with annual increases leading up to becoming partner. Offering a fixed salary, in and of itself, has absolutely no explanatory power.
 
Guaranteed partnership after a reasonable period (1-2 years) of employment. This is more than enough time to gauge if one is good enough for partnership.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Guaranteed partnership after a reasonable period (1-2 years) of employment. This is more than enough time to gauge if one is good enough for partnership.

1-2 years. Absurd. Doesn't it take seven years in law?
It takes up to seven years to become an associate proffessor. Our generation really wants everything for nothing. Some guy spends twenty years building a practice and you expect to get an even cut after one year. Even if you sign out more cases which I doubt you can right out of training, she is the reason the group has the contract. She got the ultralucrative outpatient cases going. She don't owe nothing to you
 
Two years or so is the average time to partnership in "quality private practices in pathology". Actually, the same holds true for "quality private practices" in other specialities as well.
 
Guaranteed partnership after a reasonable period (1-2 years) of employment.

Sounds good, but during those 1-2 years you are going to be employed by the group and earning a fixed salary. This is why getting hysterical over an entry level position where one is employed by the group and earning a fixed salary makes no sense.
 
I just realized I'm sandwiched on a thread with raider and pathstudent.

Excuse me, I'm going to douse my crotch in vodka and curl up in the fetal position for a bit.
 
Ok, so this is not what I had in mind when I started this thread. Oh well, it is SDN after all.
 
Sounds good, but during those 1-2 years you are going to be employed by the group and earning a fixed salary. This is why getting hysterical over an entry level position where one is employed by the group and earning a fixed salary makes no sense.

To be fair though, partnership track positions often refer to that in the advertisement (i.e. this is a partnership-track position). And while many pathologists are employees, they are often employees of hospitals or large medical centers. To be an employee of a group with no chance at partnership within that group is a suspect situation - it might mean you have to do things that the partners do not want to do. Or it might mean it's part time. Or it might mean that they might make you a partner anyway if they like you. That is something for the job interview - ads can be misleading sometimes.

Personally I would say that the average time to partnership I hear about is more like 2-3 years, and this is better than it used to be when it was often 5+ years. The smaller the group, the more likely it is quicker, from what I have seen.
 
I just realized I'm sandwiched on a thread with raider and pathstudent.

Excuse me, I'm going to douse my crotch in vodka and curl up in the fetal position for a bit.

Yeah and you are agreeing with me.
 
To be fair though, partnership track positions often refer to that in the advertisement (i.e. this is a partnership-track position).

Absolutely. As most of us have learned looking at apartment ads through the years, if an amenity is not mentioned it is unlikely that it was an inadvertent omission. I would merely be hard pressed to hold up this particular ad as the poster child for what's wrong with the job market.
 
It is also worth pointing out that "partnership" jobs are dwindling in general. We have gone over it before but all across medicine, doctors are selling their practices to hospitals or in the case of pathology also to the reference labs or other investors like APP. In those groups there is no such thing as partnership. All the pathologists are employees as someone else owns their group, even though they might still use the phrase to mean making the same as the long-timers.

The reference labs buy these practices to get the outpatient PC-TC cases controlled by the group and sometimes they are able to talk the hospitals into closing down their histology labs and then they bill the hospital for performing it and their off-site lab. From second hand I know that is what ameripath does. A hospital based pathologists whose group was sold to Ameripath explained all this to me, and said that Ameripath would take the first 23% off every dollar, and then they split 50-50 with the pathologists the profit the group generated, you know, after expenses. Unfortunately this person never got the 7 figure check when the group was sold as only partners did and this person was a new hire. Even more interesting is that this person told me their group was fipped. I.e. a pathologists who had sold his group from a big city to ameripath came in bought this group from a smaller city and then sold it to Ameripath a few months later. Flipping pathology practices. That's American! Selling practices has to be great for the old-timers that are getting ready to retire. They get a huge wind-fall to sail off into the sunset with, but I don't see why young partners would vote for this.

Maybe that group in AZ doesn't own their practice. Maybe they are all employees. Only way to find out is to check it out. AZ is a nice place to live most of the year.
 
I know a couple of fellows still working on last year's job search. Keep it quiet though, don't tell the poor med students applying to path. Time to pull out the"pathologist shortage powerpoint" and pretend.
 
It is also worth pointing out that "partnership" jobs are dwindling in general. We have gone over it before but all across medicine, doctors are selling their practices to hospitals or in the case of pathology also to the reference labs or other investors like APP. In those groups there is no such thing as partnership. All the pathologists are employees as someone else owns their group, even though they might still use the phrase to mean making the same as the long-timers.

The reference labs buy these practices to get the outpatient PC-TC cases controlled by the group and sometimes they are able to talk the hospitals into closing down their histology labs and then they bill the hospital for performing it and their off-site lab. From second hand I know that is what ameripath does. A hospital based pathologists whose group was sold to Ameripath explained all this to me, and said that Ameripath would take the first 23% off every dollar, and then they split 50-50 with the pathologists the profit the group generated, you know, after expenses. Unfortunately this person never got the 7 figure check when the group was sold as only partners did and this person was a new hire. Even more interesting is that this person told me their group was fipped. I.e. a pathologists who had sold his group from a big city to ameripath came in bought this group from a smaller city and then sold it to Ameripath a few months later. Flipping pathology practices. That's American! Selling practices has to be great for the old-timers that are getting ready to retire. They get a huge wind-fall to sail off into the sunset with, but I don't see why young partners would vote for this.

Maybe that group in AZ doesn't own their practice. Maybe they are all employees. Only way to find out is to check it out. AZ is a nice place to live most of the year.

post revised
 
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pathSTUDENT . . . i'm not telling you to be pessimistic, i'm not telling you that you're wrong, or right . . . i'm just tellng you to shut up for heaven's sake . . . go get a blow job!! you are like a statistician who constantly toils over why things don't always add up to 100%. and that, my man, is someone who does not get blow jobs . . .

:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

i'm going to get in trouble for this, aren't I yaah?

frigin great bottle of malbec though!!
 
pathSTUDENT . . . i'm not telling you to be pessimistic, i'm not telling you that you're wrong, or right . . . i'm just tellng you to shut up for heaven's sake . . . go get a blow job!! you are like a statistician who constantly toils over why things don't always add up to 100%. and that, my man, is someone who does not get blow jobs . . .

:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

No I am not going to shut up. Raider is upset because he says that he should be able to get a private practice job where he is a partner after one year and that the fact that those jobs aren't plentiful is due to the over training of pathologists or the maliciousness and greed of private pathologists.

I am just raising the point that maybe those jobs aren't as numerous as they once were simply because many of them don't exist.

I think the trend will continue. With 2014 being the year when the heat really gets turned up and all docs will seek to become employees due to medicare slashing payments to physicians to balance the medicare budget. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22sun1.html
 
Arctic Char said:
pathstudent . . . you have almost single-handedly destroyed this forum. over the last 12-24 months, your diatribes, assumptions and pretentious banter on nearly every single thread has not only dissuaded myself, but clearly many other vets on here from returning to this forum. all i ask is that you stop being stupid. otherwise, your participation is warmly welcomed and encouraged . . .
Well put. Part of the reason why I seldomly check these boards. There still are some residents and attendings here that post information that is rational and useful so it's not like this whole forum is shot to hell.

pathSTUDENT . . . i'm not telling you to be pessimistic, i'm not telling you that you're wrong, or right . . . i'm just tellng you to shut up for heaven's sake . . . go get a blow job!! you are like a statistician who constantly toils over why things don't always add up to 100%. and that, my man, is someone who does not get blow jobs . . .

:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown
Don't get worked up about this. There are bigger fish to fry. You can always ignore him/her you know.

Interesting side note...not sure if you're a fan of Michael Moore or anti-Michael Moore but there is this movie called "Michael Moore Hates America." There is a whole section about how Michael Moore displays behavior prototypical for narcissistic personality disorder. Check it out. I think you'll see some parallels and you will chuckle. Malbec is totally appropriate to sip on while watching this, by the way.
 
FYI, "ignore" as in have the forum software hide posts from a user your have on your "ignore" list -- not just "don't bother reading/responding to certain posts/users if you don't want to." It's not something I do or particularly suggest, but it's an available option. Especially if you are someone who otherwise wouldn't use or contribute to the forums.

That doesn't mean you won't be confused by other people responding to someone you have on your "ignore" list. But, anyway.
 
Click on the user's name and choose from the dropdown list. Remarkably easy, actually. I.e. -- I just read your post, and if I click on your username to the left of the post, there is a small dropdown menu which allows me to then click the bottom selection, Add gschl1234 to Your Ingore List, or something very similar. Presto chango. I assume there's some sort of "ignore list" management link from within your own account settings somewhere, too.
 
Wow! Good to know. Thanks, KCShaw! If someone on your ignore list is quoted by another post, does the quote get blocked as well?
 
I don't really know -- haven't experimented with it, only did some very brief reading about it. I suspect that it will not, since the quotation is part of an allowed user's post, and therefore a little more difficult/resource intensive for the software to track as compared to just looking at a username.
 
Right now we are probably at our worst as regards the job market.

Really? Even worse than the days when that tripod website was bemoaning the pathology job market? I didn't realize that we were that bad off these days.
 
Wow! Good to know. Thanks, KCShaw! If someone on your ignore list is quoted by another post, does the quote get blocked as well?

No. At least, I don't think so. You just don't see posts by users on your ignore list. Quotes are not really linked back to the original poster, they are just html codes which put the original poster's name in.
 
Has anyone tried just not reading them? Is it really possible that another's ideas are so offensive that you can't help being affected by them?
 
Really? Even worse than the days when that tripod website was bemoaning the pathology job market? I didn't realize that we were that bad off these days.
What is this tripod website?

I'm just kidding...(so tempted to not include this line :laugh: )
 
Has anyone tried just not reading them? Is it really possible that another's ideas are so offensive that you can't help being affected by them?

not reading them . . . thats just about as likely as you not posting
 
It's an old website on an internet site (tripod) which hasn't really been in vogue for 10 years. It's a crudely designed home-brew html-coded page which claims to represent a group of pathologists concerned about the job market. But it is woefully outdated and hasn't been updated in 10 years. But over the past couple of years it gets repeatedly linked to and referenced in this forum as "proof that the job market sucks."
 
It is also worth pointing out that "partnership" jobs are dwindling in general. We have gone over it before but all across medicine, doctors are selling their practices to hospitals or in the case of pathology also to the reference labs or other investors like APP. In those groups there is no such thing as partnership. All the pathologists are employees as someone else owns their group, even though they might still use the phrase to mean making the same as the long-timers.

The reference labs buy these practices to get the outpatient PC-TC cases controlled by the group and sometimes they are able to talk the hospitals into closing down their histology labs and then they bill the hospital for performing it and their off-site lab. From second hand I know that is what ameripath does. A hospital based pathologists whose group was sold to Ameripath explained all this to me, and said that Ameripath would take the first 23% off every dollar, and then they split 50-50 with the pathologists the profit the group generated, you know, after expenses. Unfortunately this person never got the 7 figure check when the group was sold as only partners did and this person was a new hire. Even more interesting is that this person told me their group was fipped. I.e. a pathologists who had sold his group from a big city to ameripath came in bought this group from a smaller city and then sold it to Ameripath a few months later. Flipping pathology practices. That's American! Selling practices has to be great for the old-timers that are getting ready to retire. They get a huge wind-fall to sail off into the sunset with, but I don't see why young partners would vote for this.

Maybe that group in AZ doesn't own their practice. Maybe they are all employees. Only way to find out is to check it out. AZ is a nice place to live most of the year.

alot of these things just come down to timing---in general. When I was a surgical intern in San Diego in 1978 I could not afford to buy a house and watched in agony as some more senior residents absolutely cleaned up. I was screwed ( or "hosed" ) per pathstudent. When i was able to buy my 1st house in 1981 in VA i paid 17.5% interest on a 76K home but was able to make a little profit after 4 years but was , again, hosed. I became a partner of a big prestegious outfit after 4 years as associate and made 700,.500k,600k and 500k over 4 years. good timing. When I/we sold my private practice in the great dot com era of 1996 ( after a partership buy in after 4 years in central Florida of ~200K) i/we made a fortune. good timing. Lots of guys in my group retired and got nailed by the dot com bust and then got a little breather only to hit the skids in 2008. bad timing. i hear a couple went back to some supplemental income work. I have stayed the course ( so far good timing and have no ambition to retire). I have watched my investible assets go from 2.5 M to 5.2 M and I am now almost back to the top.

Bottom line---timing. Sometime you will do well and sometime you will do bad and get "hosed". Just stay the course. NO ONE can predict the future. Just be diversified and hang in there.
 
Hrm..

Well I can say as I guy who runs a few businesses...there is basically no reason ever to hire a new pathologist as partner-track. Staff patholgists, even good ones, are so utterly replaceable it makes no business sense whatsoever to make them equity partners.

For residents and fellows, kiss that dream goodbye.

The current model is one of: guy(s) start a group, get contracts and hire PT pathologists to staff locations for frozen coverage etc. Then the initial group eventually leaves and sells practice to corporation A, perhaps retaining medical directorship of some of the hospitals for an income stream.

This simply is not going to change. There are now just way too many pathologists (who are good) looking for stable work and willing to take anything. Combined with the decreasing reimbursement and the fact veterans can sign out huge caseloads in very short time periods (I signed out an entire medical center's load of surgicals by 8:45am...8:45am SOLO), this will not change in the coming decades.

Sorry.
 
So, that being said, you have no concern about mentoring younger pathologists or sticking up for the younger generation? Or does your advocacy consist of complaining about it but yet continuing to stick it to them just because you can make a couple extra hundred thousand a year off of their labors? Why is what you are advocating any different from pod labs?

I tend to subscribe to a bit of a different model. While I agree with your description of the model of many practices, it doesn't have to be that way. You can have a very stable, profitable group without taking advantage of the young or inexperienced, particularly if they show promise. So I wouldn't kiss the dream goodbye at all, but I would look out for practices that behave with this attitude. If you are lucky they will be honest like LADoc is apparently being. But many are not honest.
 
Good. I am glad a lot of your old partners are broke. Serves em right for hosing legions of future pathologists. Serves em right if they are now working part-time for LADoc00 for 25 cents on the dollar! Some might call it fair retribution. Some might call it divine intervention!


alot of these things just come down to timing---in general. When I was a surgical intern in San Diego in 1978 I could not afford to buy a house and watched in agony as some more senior residents absolutely cleaned up. I was screwed ( or "hosed" ) per pathstudent. When i was able to buy my 1st house in 1981 in VA i paid 17.5% interest on a 76K home but was able to make a little profit after 4 years but was , again, hosed. I became a partner of a big prestegious outfit after 4 years as associate and made 700,.500k,600k and 500k over 4 years. good timing. When I/we sold my private practice in the great dot com era of 1996 ( after a partership buy in after 4 years in central Florida of ~200K) i/we made a fortune. good timing. Lots of guys in my group retired and got nailed by the dot com bust and then got a little breather only to hit the skids in 2008. bad timing. i hear a couple went back to some supplemental income work. I have stayed the course ( so far good timing and have no ambition to retire). I have watched my investible assets go from 2.5 M to 5.2 M and I am now almost back to the top.

Bottom line---timing. Sometime you will do well and sometime you will do bad and get "hosed". Just stay the course. NO ONE can predict the future. Just be diversified and hang in there.
 
LADoc00 is giving a good picture of reality. There's way too many pathologists, as a result of having too many residents. Until they really cut down on residency spots nothing will change.
 
Hrm..

Well I can say as I guy who runs a few businesses...there is basically no reason ever to hire a new pathologist as partner-track. Staff patholgists, even good ones, are so utterly replaceable it makes no business sense whatsoever to make them equity partners.

For residents and fellows, kiss that dream goodbye.

The current model is one of: guy(s) start a group, get contracts and hire PT pathologists to staff locations for frozen coverage etc. Then the initial group eventually leaves and sells practice to corporation A, perhaps retaining medical directorship of some of the hospitals for an income stream.

This simply is not going to change. There are now just way too many pathologists (who are good) looking for stable work and willing to take anything. Combined with the decreasing reimbursement and the fact veterans can sign out huge caseloads in very short time periods (I signed out an entire medical center's load of surgicals by 8:45am...8:45am SOLO), this will not change in the coming decades.

Sorry.
Been there, done that, do it now and agree with you 100%.
 
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