What the actual heck am I supposed to get paid for doing this? What the heck is my actual job? What do I do!? (For Fellows)
Ok, we’ll get right down to it here. If you made it this far you’re either very interested in being a fellow, a fellow, or a curious attending but you want to know my opinion on the job market from someone going through it (or you skipped down. If you skipped, props, I can’t even imagine reading all of that stuff I wrote). Here we’re going to talk about what sort of jobs there are, what you will be offered to get paid, what you probably should get paid, a little primer on RVUs, how the world and demand of minimally invasive surgery affects all of this, things like salary guarantees vs. productivity bonuses, sign on bonuses, academic/protected time, the works.
The first thing we need to get out of the way is that, outside of the academic places who have been employing surgical oncologists at their institution for decades, absolutely no one else has a definitive idea of “THIS IS WHAT A SURGICAL ONCOLOGIST IS AND SHOULD DO AND SHOULD BE PAID”. No one. Not one single job. I had a job interview at a younger university program who wanted a general surgical oncologist. I applied to a few academic type positions that wanted research minded people and professors. I interviewed at a for-profit system hiring faculty under their general surgery residency and paying under the AAMC model but had absolutely none of the benefits of a university employment model, no productivity, and expected general surgery call. I interviewed at a non-profit ACO who paid MGMA 50th with great benefits where I could get my student loans forgiven. Some places want you to do esophagus. Some don’t. Some want you to do liver. Some just want pancreas and send liver to transplant or a bigger center. One wants me to do full court press thoracic – esophagus, lung, the works, in addition to HPB, HIPEC, sarcoma, MIS (I really dig that place and may take that job, sounds like a ton of fun). Some have senior partners. Some, they want to bring you in to be the guy and you’re it – they’ve NEVER done big HPB, abdominal, or thoracic surgery and they want you to start it (that’s my other top choice – they looked awesome). Some will pay you 75th MGMA or even higher. Maine has been advertising for a while and will pay you a breezy 700k base salary, no big deal. Some want people to do general surgery and take general surgery call, some don’t. You need to think about all of this, and the short version is that each place is very radically different and has different needs and absolutely none of them can be easily compared to one another. They really, really can’t. They’re all different. So instead of doing that, if you’re looking for a job in surg/onc or want to know what the market is like, I strongly encourage you instead to just consider all of the
component pieces of surgical oncology jobs and decide what is best for you. What you want most, what you can do and won’t bother you but doesn’t excite you, what you would find unpleasant but tolerable, and what you absolutely aren’t willing to do. That list is way more useful (and you can negotiate with it in your interviews! A lot of places will work with your strengths and wants, though some absolutely won’t and want you doing certain things).
So, in no particular order EXCEPT the first thing which is the most important:
Getting Good Outcomes:
I put this first because it is the advice I have been given from my fellowship, my senior mentors, the people I have interviewed with that I like, the people I have interviewed with that I don’t like, and the people I trust and have been mentors for nearly a decade. You need to have good outcomes. Even if you’re the person and you’re expected to do big surgery on day one out of fellowship, pump the breaks and strongly consider NOT doing big surgery first. There is ALWAYS someone who is hoping you are going to fail. Maybe it’s the private practice GI group. Maybe it’s the HPB surgeon across the street. Maybe it’s the surgical oncology senior guy who doesn’t think you ought to be doing robotic pancreas surgery. Maybe it’s the fellow who’s two years behind you but a native to the city who wants your job. Maybe it’s a competing health system. Whoever it is, they exist, they’re there, and they’re looking for you to have complications or bad outcomes to say “see, that’s why you shouldn’t go there, bring your business here instead.” Healthcare is first and foremost a business. Please understand that reality. Even for non-profits, for faith based places, for county hospitals, for university hospitals. You need patients, to make money, to pay for the things. Strongly consider starting slow. If you can do a robot whipple on day one, great, but maybe consider doing it open first because what happens if you have to convert? Do the nurses you just met know what to do? Do they know what instruments to hand you if you get into bleeding? Can they work with you under stress? Can your assistant? Take the time to consider all of this. Focus on being safe, getting good outcomes, and building up to the big cases, even if it means short term loss. It will give you a solid reputation; you will be able to market yourself, you will build confidence, your patients will have good things to say about you.
Scope of Practice:
Next: what surgery do you want to do? If you know you want to do HPB/sarcoma/HIPEC, those jobs are more rare than others but
not as rare at least as I personally thought they would be. Most people advertising for a surg-onc job expect you to be able to do normal HPB (whipples, distal/spleen, biliary stuff, simple liver). Some expect you to be able to do major liver (right/left/extended), most will not expect you to do complicated liver (cirrhotic/triseg/crazy hilar) unless they have a senior partner or a plan if that goes sideways such as transplant backup or availability or a bigger referral place. Thoracic surgery is generally not expected and super rare. Esophagus is 50/50. Many places will NOT actually need you to do breast surgery – many have fellowship trained breast surgeons now. But if that interests you, there are PLENTY of jobs for that or they’re often willing to share. Many will NOT actually need you to do thyroid/para, but many *absolutely* need you to. It seems to be 50/50 and unlike breast, they either definitely need you to do it or definitely don’t. I see a lot less grey with the places I have applied on thyroid/para/neck. Many will want you to, at minimum, be the guy they can call for the really complex benign general surgery (the pancreatitis bombs, the messed up common bile duct, the horrible diverticulitis that blasted their pelvis into the next century). A lot want you to do some component of general surgery but in that same token, they will often let you pick what you want to do. Don’t want to do hernias ever again? Cool, but then you should expect to do gallbladders and appendixes and diverticulitis maybe. Some are looking for just a foregut/gastric cancer type guy, some are looking for just breast/melanoma, some are looking for just HPB but I will say that those jobs with this higher specialization and very limited scope, outside of academics, are very rare in the hospital employed/private practice setting.
Senior Partners:
Some people have more comfort level than others, but it is my personal opinion that it is vitally important that you have a senior partner that can bail you out of deep ****. They don’t have to be a surgical oncologist. My top two prospects each have something different: one has an old school HPB/transplant trained surgeon who only makes big incisions and won’t even do basic laparoscopy, the other has a MacGyver type general surgeon who does esophagus with high volume and does everything robotic. Obviously, pros and cons to both of these jobs. In one I will have a guy who can help mentor, teach, and proctor me for the really tough liver cases that I haven’t gotten enough exposure with and will allow me to vault forward into more complex surgery over the next few years. But he can’t really help me at all in developing and furthering my complex robotic skills from fellowship. The other can help me in all of my MIS/robotic endeavors, has sarcoma experience, but hasn’t done liver or pancreas surgery in 15 years. Neither has done HIPEC. But they’ve both (and others in both systems) have reinforced multiple times that they are there to support me and make sure I am not alone in trying to build and do those things. I strongly feel, and suggest, wherever you go that you have someone like this in your corner. It will set you up for success. At the same time, just make sure to take the time to understand who else you’re working with and if you’re going to be competing for cases with them. This isn’t inherently bad (like, growing program and hiring second surgical oncologist), but something you just have to be very mindful of. You may have a salary guarantee for the first 2-3 years, but what happens after that? Can their volume really support that second surgeon? Will it become competitive between you two or are there plans for profit sharing? Stuff like that.
General Surgery/Trauma/Weekend/Overnight Call:
Pretty self-explanatory. Do they want you to take general surgery call, do you want to take general surgery call, are you *willing* to take general surgery call, and when/how often/how much? What’s your role for trauma, if any? (It should be zero unless you specifically want it to be otherwise). Who are you rounding for on the weekends and who is rounding for you on the weekends? How often? Do you take first call overnight, or do you take call for the entire service/group who you share weekend call with, is it one week at a time, alternates daily, etc. There is no wrong answer to any of this, just make sure to ask! One place I interviewed with wanted me to do one weekend of general surgery call a month at two hospitals simultaneously and then one additional single weekday night per month, relatively minimal and not too bad. Two were zero emergency general surgery call – that went to an ACS team. One was 1:3 but their hospital was a specialty hospital that didn’t get much general surgery. And if you are on general surgery call – is it appendixes, gallbags, and free air? Are you doing those cases the next morning if you admit or are you just covering ER call and passing that to a partner so it doesn’t screw up your elective cancer stuff? Are you doing things like abscesses and hemorrhoids and vascular stuff (like honest to god general surgery)? Do you *want* to do that? Do you even remember how? (#heckle) Just think about all of those things and make sure to ask. If you’re doing 3 gallbladders and an appendix the next day you are really going to screw your schedule for what you want and were designed to do: cancer surgery.
Compensation:
(Did you scroll straight down to this part? …uh-huh.) Alright so here it is. The most taboo of all taboo subjects, because you are supposed to have gone into medicine to be a Saint and the money shouldn’t matter and it’s about the patients.
K.
There are two pay scales. The AAMC scale is what professors get paid on. This is available to be purchased at an absolutely insane ~$1,000 for individual use. Some participating university type institutions can get this for free. I tried very, very hard to get this from all of my contacts but no one could get it for me and no one had access. I don’t know what the numbers are, but I have a pretty good idea. AAMC does sort by specialty and RVUs and gives you 25th/50th/75th/90th percentile numbers. In general (so I’m told) it pays slightly LOWER than general surgery because it assumes you don’t take call. 50th percentile is probably 260-265k. The upper limit you should expect out of fellowship is certainly not going to be above 350k on AAMC and is realistically probably 300k. The lower limit is 200k. Most places will give you a guaranteed base salary for 3 years. Some will also have a productivity bonus, some won’t. We’ll talk about this in a second. Some things you should expect if you are getting paid under this model are:
- Protected time for research, education , or administration which can be as little as 20% (1 day per week) or as much as 75%, but is more often 25-50% depending on your research goals and if it’s a university vs. a cancer center.
- No general surgery call unless they’re paying you for it
- Residents or fellows to take call for you in the middle of the night and deal with the bull****
- Generous retirement matching
- PSLF should be a given or they should pay off your student loans, huge red flag if they are a for profit and they won’t tackle your loans
This is what I have been able to glean about academic/AAMC. Again, I defer to my academic colleagues if you’re out there. I only know what I know because of the one for-profit professor job I applied to which I have since turned down (which made me really sad because it was in my home city where my family lives). I investigated as much as I could, but they had none of the above and at the end of the day seemed like they were trying to take advantage of me and it just wasn’t worth it. (Other reasons when I get to hospital/capital support at the end too).
The other pay scale is MGMA. There’s actually 3 pay scales, MGMA, SCA, and AMGA, but most people just say MGMA. Even if they say MGMA though, the usual standard practice is to average all three of those scales and to the organization that is the MGMA pay scale. This data exists both for regionally (such as pacific, pacific northwest, southwest, Midwest, etc.) or nationally. State level data, to my knowledge, does not exist and/or I didn’t have access to it. MGMA data also comes with Work RVU data. We’ll talk about this in a second too once we go over base salary and productivity. Many large academic institutions are actually beginning to pay even their professor type people using MGMA to retain talent. 25th percentile is about 340k, 50th is about 420k, 75th is about 550k. So at the end of the day – that’s what you ought to be getting paid if you aren’t strictly in academics.
Now, this is where it gets more nuanced and this is VITALLY IMPORTANT for surgical oncologists. The problem is that we do a massive, massive scope of surgery that other surgeons do not. If you counted the TYPES of RVUs that we bill for, the scope of that is huge. It can include general surgery, vascular surgery, HPB, whatever. It’s like, literally, all of the coding book. Why is this important? Because those salaries, both AAMC and MGMA, are more or less based on RVUs comparing you to other surgeons. For many specialties RVUs is a really good marker for productivity, or stated differently, RVUs are the standardized way of knowing how hard you’re working.
In reality? RVUs are absolutely horrible at comparing surgical oncologists to one another.
The problem is that surgical oncology has a LOT OF OTHER THINGS that we do. MDC clinic? That doesn’t generate RVUs. Building a practice and talking to referring docs? That does not generate RVUs. Making system wide cancer guidelines, teaching? No RVUs. And even when we do get RVUs for surgery, they don’t always mean what you think they mean. A whipple may be worth 10 gallbladders, but a gallbladder is someone you meet for five minutes, take to surgery, and discharge the next day and can forget about. A whipple is in your hospital for a week. They required scans and visits ahead of time. They required MDC discussions. They required your participation in chemo and radiation decisions. The list goes on. And you may be saying – well, doesn’t the RVU system account for that because you have to do 10 gallbladders to equal that? …It does, and does OK at it. But now let’s talk about a robotic whipple. This operation takes 2 to 3 times as long. In most systems it has the same, or only marginally marked up RVU value compared to the open version. You can do at least two, sometimes three open whipples in the same time you can do a single tough robotic whipple.
Are you starting to see the problem?
Layered on top of this is that minimally invasive/robotic complex surgery is what’s hot right now. It is what is wildly in demand and almost an expectation for places recruiting a surgical oncologist. My associate PD is a robotic surgeon attempting all of his cases with a robot approach now, and his clinic and operative week are SLAMMED. He is operating from 7am-5pm three days or more a week with clinic from 7-5 the other two days and then meetings before or after. He barely breaks 6,500 RVUs. A surgical oncologist who may just be doing ports, breast, melanoma, and colons can pull 12,000 RVUs and work less hours. If you’re just the HPB guy? You may not even hit 5,000 RVUs and maybe you only have one big case three days a week. The problem with compensation in surg/onc is that there are so many of us doing wildly different things that the RVU and pay scales don’t always make sense, and you need to really research this, and account for it when it comes time to negotiate a contract.
Let’s take the example (me) of you’re being recruited to start a surgical oncology service line from scratch which is what the two jobs I’m really interested in taking are. I need to go in, build a practice from scratch, build OR protocols, make business models for equipment purchasing for a HIPEC machine and liver retractors, intraoperative ultrasound etc., meet referring providers, develop an MDC clinic, build the documentation and order sets in the EMR… the list goes on, and on, and on. I actually wrote it out in project management software to organize it and it has 400 tasks so far, each of which is not a simple task (imagine trying to do a whipple in a hospital that never has and you have to get from pulling your attendings preference card to doing it with a robot. How many steps and how much work do you think that is?). My 400 task list is halfway done – it’s still a work in progress. How many RVUs do you think that list generates? *crickets*
So that brings us to salary guarantee and productivity bonus, and perhaps even more importantly, asking about what it looks like when it’s time to renegotiate your contract in 2-3 years. Unless you are going into a practice with a clearly established referral base and you are REPLACING a surgical oncologist who moved on, retired, or died and are quite literally picking up their practice where they left off (AND EVEN THEN), you should be asking for at minimum 2, more typically 3, and in some cases 5 years guaranteed base salary. This base salary should make up the bulk of your contract and the RVU piece needs to be carefully talked about and extensively discussed with whoever is hiring you and needs to reflect what your practice is actually going to be. If you’re a robotic HPB surgeon you had better get it in their heads up front that you’re never ever going to pull 12,000 RVUs, but that your value to the institution in marketing, quality of care to the patients, draw for the oncology service line, hospital resources and length of stay… all of those things will make the system more money. You may need to talk to them about a base salary for the entirety of your career depending on your scope of practice. Conversely, if you are going to do surgery that is complicated and you know is going to be high volume low risk, you may WANT a generous productivity piece, even right out of the gate. Maybe you want a 25th percentile base and then an RVU productivity type reimbursement for every RVU over the 25th. I don’t know what you want because I’m not you – I can only tell you that you really need to think about it before you get to contract negotiations. Personally, I want to start a surgical oncology service line and be hospital employed, I want it to be my baby and I want to be able to build it myself and make the rules, and I want to do all of that business type stuff with marketing and advertising and building relationships with my community. I like all that crap. I’m excited to start a HIPEC and robotic surgery program. You might hate it. You may want to wake up, do surgery, and go home and not think about it anymore. But for me, that’s what I want, and knowing that, I know I need to ask for a base salary above 50th percentile and tell them flat out that I’m not going to hit RVU metrics for the first two years, and maybe even longer. That my value to them will far exceed the RVU piece because of the administrative component, that I’m going to take the time to make sure we’re doing good billing and coding and documentation, that we’re doing outreach, that we’re expanding our patients coming into our system which generates more money for the med oncs, the rad oncs, the radiologists, IR, etc. That’s my value and what I bring to the table, and I need to be paid to reflect that. That I can do a robot whipple and it IS what is best for my patients, but that it takes x3 as long and that doesn’t mean you can’t pay me the same as the guy who only does them open but does twice as much. I need to be paid the same as him when you hit the bottom line dollar amount, but it needs to be in a different model.
I hope that makes sense and demystifies what you should get paid. The tldr version is that academic surg oncs should get 275k (ish) and the private practice guys should get 425 (ish). After a decade, that number should go up to 350k for academic and 500-550 for private. As your career winds down and you transition to admin, that salary can go up again particularly if you’re starting a new program or being recruited as an administrator deliberately, or sometimes it just stays the same but you get to operate less and live life more. I defer to my elders to correct this last paragraph on what you should be getting paid 10 years, 20 years, and twilight years into practice. Also, you should in general get anywhere from 30k to 100k in retirement match depending on how generous your institution is, and that is not included in the salary figures for the most part (I think).
Also, loosely related, in this day and age unless you’re true private practice/partner type job, everyone should pay for your malpractice w/ tail, licensing, DEA, blah blah blah. You should get 3-5k for educational expenses and conferences, and a week of conference time. You should get 4 weeks of vacation. Some places are offering 2 weeks, that’s a red flag. Some go up to 5-6, that’s a perk. Some give you like a set amount of days and if you couple it with weekends you aren’t on call you can stretch it out to be 5-6 weeks even if its technically 4 weeks of vacation. Your sign on bonus should be between 50-100k, most places offer 20 but they’re lowballing you. There should be 10-20k relocation assistance. Ideally it’s a non-profit so you can get PSLF for your loans because you did at least seven, if not 9 years of PSLF already from your training. Otherwise, ask about student loan repayment. CHECK the non-compete clause if this is your home town and you have family – make sure if you part ways for some reason you either are OK with leaving the city and state, or your non-compete is not so restrictive that you can’t get another job in the city. Some non-competes will mean you’re moving to another state, but if you’re the only surg onc in town and you quit (or they didn’t renew your contract), that isn’t really a big deal because it means you already decided to leave. But if you’re in a big city or even the suburbs and don’t want to go someplace new, this can be INCREDIBLY important. Laws enforcing non-competes vary by state but in general are enforceable.
Protected Time:
Varies. But academics should have a clear component of their contract spelling out how much time is protected and what it is for and what percentage of your job is clinical. I’m finding, interestingly, that many jobs in the hospital employed but non-academic realm are still giving one day a week or one week a month as protected time for admin or research type endeavors. I didn’t expect this, and it certainly isn’t every place, but it’s a cool perk.
Working at Multiple Hospitals:
I just want to mention this, make sure to think about it and be OK with it if this is the case. In particular consider what types of surgery you’ll be doing at both hospitals, what your call obligations are, and the travel time. If you’re doing an outreach clinic 20 minutes away, no big deal. But maybe you’re doing colon surgeries 30-45 minutes away (think big cities bad traffic) but major liver and pancreas at another hospital, and your colon surgery has a complication and you need to drive there. This can really ruin your day and make your life hell. Multiple hospitals is not a bad thing, and is honestly a very normal thing, but it deserves some thought and consideration in the grand scheme and should be discussed with your new employers before signing a contract on what type of surgery or clinic you’re going to be doing and where, and what the capabilities of those places are to support you in doing those things.
Residents/Fellows:
Also pretty self-explanatory – make sure you want them if you have them, make sure if you have them you want them. Don’t go to a place with residents and fellows if you don’t want to take the time to teach them. It’s ****ty and is a huge disservice to them. This should be a passion if you’re going to do it and it will make both their lives and yours exponentially better. Understand the call hierarchy at night and on weekends for this. Understand how consults work with your residency or fellowship. Be honest with yourself about YOUR comfort level in letting another doctor who is in training make decisions about YOUR patients. Ask how teaching is accounted for in your compensation as it does slow you down universally, though in some places not as much as you would think.
Dedicated PA or Co-Surgeons:
Understand who’s going to be assisting you. Make sure you’re OK with that. Some surgery we can do by ourselves. Others we absolutely can’t. Is it a PA doing that whipple with you and you’re walking back and forth from both sides of the table? Is it another surgeon who is trained in onco surgery? Is it just a regular general surgeon there to do what you ask but also is competent at doing surgery? Is it an RNFA? Robotic bedside assist? Surgical assist? Will this person be a part of your OR team and with you every case, or are you going to get a different person each time? Will it matter to you? (If you’re doing big surgery, it ABSOLUTELY matters. If you’re doing moderate to low complexity surgery, it probably doesn’t). Understand if this affects your billing or their billing, and how. Understand the difference between an assistant surgeon in billing and a co-surgeon; an assistant surgeon is just that, a co-surgeon is a surgeon doing a portion of the case that you can’t/shouldn’t be doing and does their own op note and separate part (think multi visceral resection like a colorectal guy taking out the colon while you do the liver, or a breast excision followed by plastics reconstruction).
Business and Administration:
I feel like I did a pretty good job of this in my example of myself in the compensation part, but to emphasize this again, take some time to
really think about what your job is going to be. If you’re the only surgical oncologist, which isn’t uncommon in non-academic places (and even some academic places), you’re it. You have to come up with the business plans. You’re responsible for making sure people are billing and coding right. You need to make the standardized pathways and protocols. If you were taught to do something and its new and amazing and the institution you’re going to wants it but hasn’t ever done it before, it is going to be way more work than you think getting it from an idea to reality. How much do you really know about HIPEC? How much that machine costs? The perfusionist? The ICU taking care of them afterward? Chemo precautions? How much capital will your hospital invest? How much will insurance reimburse? How many patients are you expected to do per year? Will this generate revenue from med onc and rad onc too? Gyn-onc? Like… really think about that stuff. Very few people taught us the business of medicine but it is important on day one for a surgical oncologist, perhaps more so than even the ability to operate and operate well if you’re trying to start something new. This can be an incredibly rewarding experience and exciting time! But some people don’t want that sort of pressure or responsibility, so think about it.
Referrals:
Understand where your patients are going to come from. Is it PCPs, internists? GI? Med onc? All of the above? Is it competing hospital systems? Are you part of an ACO? Is it internal referrals from your system? Figure it out and ask. If you’re a new name doing something new no one is going to know you exist or what this new thing is or why their patients need it and that falls on you. You need to understand this ahead of time and plan accordingly.
Cancer Center/MDC Group, Ancillary Services, Hospital Administration Support, Capital Support:
I’m running out of steam so I just want to add some plugs that you need to make sure the place you’re going to actually has what you think it has and/or what you’re used to from fellowship to DO the things you were trained to do. Did you stop and make sure GI can do EUS? Do they have a Pet machine? Can they get Dotatate? Is the IR guy
that dude who can get a wire through a sliver of hay, or is it a diagnostic rads body imager who just does pus drainage because no one else in the group wants to do the abdominal stuff? Do med onc and rad onc work with you in your institution, or are they private? Heck, same for all those other services I just talked about. Will they refer to you if you refer to them, or do they have preferred providers? If your system and new job *doesn’t* have those things, is there hospital administration support to get them and pay for them? Are they talking to you about making a capital budget before you start, or are they saying lets tackle that after you’ve been here for a year or two? I’ve found that last piece to be particularly telling on their “true enthusiasm”, if you will, to invest in you and your practice.
Where do I look for job postings?
SSO Job Board:
Surgeon Jobs - Society of Surgical Oncology's Career Center
Type in Surgical Oncologist in Keyword or Job Title Box
Practice Link:
Physician Oncology - Surgical Jobs on PracticeLink
Click that link
DocCafe:
Job Search - Advanced · DocCafe.com
Click that link or select Surgery-Oncology on specialty
Word of mouth
Internal Hiring
Friends
Conferences (If we ever have them)
Indeed.com, glassdoor.com, linkedin.com (less specific, harder to use, but found a couple jobs that were there and not other places)
Physician Recruiters (hit and miss)
Of note – when using any of those big recruiting sites, if you can track down the actual organization, they often have their own website and job posting and will get back to you sooner if you email them directly or apply through their website.
Big insurance websites or national cancer enterprises like blue cross blue shield, cancer centers of America, etc. will often also have some postings for surgical oncology jobs and may not be listed (but usually are) on those other places.