Surgery or EM from a small caribbean school?

[MikeS 78]

That is an incredibly wasteful post for the following reasons
a)You are restarting up an argument that had reached an endpoint, despite its unsettled discussion
B) the cheap shot you took at me is laden with ignorant presuppositions...namely that you can possibly deduce who I am as a person by how I sound in a post on a web board, and that somehow this can be extrapolated to my performance in any area whatsoever....these are traits that you have personified me with because you disagree with my view point, not based on any tangible evidence whatsoever
c) it assumes that my opinion on FMG's of the nature discussed is not shared by many other people in the medical community...as well as much of the public
d) I, as well as anyone else who has a clue about the nature of the basic economics taught in high schools, am strongly against anything that increases the supply of doctors, especially when these physicians are not as well trained (and it is really impossible to claim that the training is equal)....it worries me that many in my profession are seemingly in favor of making the same type of mistake that killed the american farmer at a time when doctors are under more fire than ever

My personal belief on DO's is that the degree is more or less obsolete.....the reason for having a DO degree in the past was because they were actually different types of medicine and had differences in licensing.....however the DO's gained acceptance by becoming more or less analogous to allopathic medical schools....thus I really fail to see why (besides the fact that it maintains people's jobs) the degree persists as opposed to the schools becoming MD schools that teach manipulation in addition to the curriculum.....

People attempt to defend the fact that the schools indeed are different, however besides the addition of OMM i fail to see the diffence between an osteopath school and an allopath schools with an emphasis on primary care

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[hardboiled]

Oh, the truth finaly comes out Mike 78. You say that you are against FMG's becouse of the economics of it. You dont want any more MD's in the US becouse it means less money for you? Why? Is it so you can have enough money to seperate your self from the " dirty poor" people? you know like the kind who are on ACCESS and Medicare, or in other words your "bread and butter" or "gravey". Hey, I'd bet "money" you didnt put that in your personel statement.

 

[MikeS 78]

talk about a slippery slope argument....let me tell you there are two pointed things I don't like to have people stick in my mouth and one of them a bunch of words that I did not say

the only thing I meant by the claim was that the individual decision making rights of physicians is inherently damaged by allowing a large influx of FMG's...people who can be easily replaced by another person inherently have less ability to deal with large organizations that are attempting to limit their power.....look at the history of labor unions in the US...for years they were subverted until finally unions began to develop means by which they could limit the number of people who could perform a specific job...are unions perfect...of course not however they greatly improved the working conditions under which factory laborers worked

Medical doctors currently have enough problems without allowing any person who can find someone to grant them a medical degree to come practice medicine in the united states....HMO's have slowly diminished the power of well trained quality doctors by hiring less qualified ones to serve as "in network" employees....and I would shocked if you honestly believe that 1) everyone with an MD/DO is by definition equal in their abilties 2) good doctors should be replaced with inferior ones

Are there problems with the current way in which health care is delivered and paid for...of course....however despite what many (usually not physicians) seem to think...the problem will not be solved by making large corporations (ie HMO's) more powerful and insurance company CEO's richer.....and increasing the supply of doctors in the nation will do just that.....no matter whether they work in the inner city or in Beverly Hills

public support of the medical community is becoming increasingly shaky....in part due to many egregious cases of malpractice....now why everyone makes a few mistakes in their career....it is sheer lunacy to think that they occur in randomly distributed even distribution.....so while I am slightly against oversupplying physicians.....I am VERY against flooding the markets with poorly trained doctors...there are systems in place (However flawed you think they are) that are set up to make sure that certain people who we deem are able to become good doctors are the only ones allowed to become physicians and in my experience there aren't too many sharp people I have met who slipped through the cracks....and I feel that it is an attack on this profession when people go to the carribean to subvert a system that for the most part has made the medical profession one of the most respected and productive sectors of our society for quite some time...ie to take the easy way out.....most successful US applicants work rather hard to prepare themselves for medical training and thus it angers me when people aren't willing to do the work it takes (cmon it is not that hard to get into some school somewhere if you are really serious and Yes I know atleast 10 people who have gone to schools in carribean and all of them have been rather mediocre candidates) ....in effect then take an easy way out...then come in and flood the labor pool...not everyone who does this fits my description..but it does occur

further more I gasp at your crazy assumption that FMG's are even a single Iota more willing to serve any underserved community than their american graduates......in fact people that are open with their desire to work in underserved communties typically fare better in US interviews than others, and many US schools actively select students with this desire (IE MD and DO schools in some states actively look for people who wanted to work in Rural med, other schools in urban areas look for people willing to serve the inner city) and thus I would be willing to claim that more of my classmates will end up serving underserved communities than carribean grads (note that Detroit rock is not exactly thrilled to be working in detroit)

Thus not only do you jump to unsubstantiated conclusions, but your argument is grossly irrelvent to this discussion

Finally I feel that the real reason the AOA has failed to change the distinction is because once changed...the President of the AOA and all its staff are out of a job.....along with all the dues collected and fees for the COMLEX.....why in gods name would they get rid of a paycheck


[This message has been edited by MikeS 78 (edited 11-30-2000).]

 

[MikeS 78]

more over if all educations are equal then why do residency directors, employers, and increasingly patients often ask for CV's....I doubt its because they want to know your address

 

[LoserAlert]

Mike,

you seriously have too much time on your hands to check this thread every two hours.

 

[supyo]

this site is supposed to be a forum to discuss issue that we face in medicine during rotations/residencies--

why don't we jus agree to disagree and drop this ridiculousness because it does not bode well for any of you...

please stop the INSANITY

 

[richierich]

It is tremendously entertaining to watch some one with so much intellegence completely miss the entire point. Obviously, we all know that Mike is one with the good fortune to be blessed with an extremely high IQ and a large vocabulary to go with it. Too bad he was not given eyes to see with.
DRC has refuted his contention that the training is inferior by pointing out that the clinical traing, for some of the schools, is completed along side the state side trained physicians. Yet, Mike still stands on his statment that the training is inferior. Then what is the standard?????? I am not clear on this. This is just a single example of how Mike you have missed the point.

My humble opinion is Mike worked hard to get into an Ivy league school in order to have the best education he can and it pisses him off that he will have colleagues that will ha ve not followed the traditions of the profession in the United States.

Personally, I would not have attended a carribiean school but only for personal reasons; I am married and would not have inconveniced my wife by dragging her around the world.

Last point, Mike you questioned DRC's program and how he could have sooo much time to participate in such drivel, my words. I know that you are first year and am wondering, since that I am also a first year in a stateside allopathic institution, how do you find the time to follow this message board so closely and frequently? I am starting to wonder about the quality of the academics at our Ivy league institutions.

Richard

Mike, I would suggest that you take a few years to complete your training as this will only accentuate your other fine talents. As, I completely agree with Dr. P you seem to have an arogant attitude and this will not always work with your patients. Also remember, no matter how much you know there will always someone who will know more than you on any given subject, your own argument (the broad reason for such specialization in medicine.)

 

[MikeS 78]

I had gross as an undergrad last semester and therefore the beast of first year is somewhat tamer for myself than most and medical school has been no more stress than undergrad....and to be honest it really does not take long to type a few arguments though I at many times have considered cessation of posting

also I still feel that attempting to determine someones character based on a few words stated on a web board is rather silly and that the comments made are rather a personal attack more than a realistic assessment

finally the initial argument on this entire discussion was whether or not it would be a good move for an aspiring ER doc or surgeon to go to a carribean school and the question was answered with a resounding yes.....my claim is that to make such a move would be equivalent to a hail mary in football.....a long shot last ditch effort and probably would not be as good a move as putting off med school to improve ones credentials and preparedness because if the training was indeed equivalent as people here seem to claim, people would be fighting to get into medical schools at the carribean and it would be quite difficult to get in

 

[richierich]

Mike,

No, I do not feel that my statments are not a personal attack. The conclusions that I have made about you and your person have come from the observation of a plethera of your posts on many different topics over the past couple of months. It is only now that I speak up. As you can see by the limited number of posts that I have submitted, I tend not to post frivolously. Any comments I have made are based upon an opinion that I have formed from themes and attitudes of your posts.

No one is disagreeing with you that it is a difficult task to return to the states and obtain a postion in such a competitive residency, only if you will conceide that it is not imposible and stop the misinformed and opinionated attacks.

 

[hardboiled]

Any one who puts any thing else on this thread is basicaly just trying to argue, and thus they are saying that what they have said is inferior to every one else. You ( you know who you are, you little dip ****) have responed to every post and it has not got any of us further. You seem to think that eventually you will "win" if you keep at it long enough. YOU WILL NOT. there is no win. Please sop writing on this post becouse its over.
Would a Dip **** please respond next.. please

 

[MikeS 78]

wahahahahahaha.....I must say that after this argument going on and on the entire school year and all the many arguments and disagreements....that someone has finally convinced me to drop it and that person is hardboiled

some people try to win arguments with brilliant wit...others passionate manifestos, others with humor.....however you have taken the interesting approach of incoherent babbling and allusions to profanity....which far more than anyone elses inane comments convinces me that this thread is a waste of my time.....

 

[Boomer]

So, if "only a dipsh*t" will respond to this thread again, what does that make you???

I mean, personally, I saw the thread as dead. I think most would agree. But no, you had to make a new personal attack on another user (and for some insane reason, I felt the need to respond in kind)....

Something of a useless cycle, huh????

 

[doctor jay]

Wow! This has been really entertaining!!!

DRC I feel for ya living in Detroit, but know that WSU has great facilities for EM--heck it is Detroit--tons of trauma.

Mike congrats on being at an IVY League school. Use the resources to be a great and caring physician.

Imagine this for a second: you all work in the same ER, patient comes in with severe trauma to the head and thorax, with LOC and severe blood loss. What is your job as a TEAM? Do you argue about where you graduated from med school, what your board scores were, what's on your CV or do you jump in and do your best to give your patient the highest standard of care?

I think Rodney King asked, "Can't we all just get along?"

 

[loukary]

Originally posted by surgery:
No question about it.

Many prestigious academic institutions never has D.O. surgery residents and do not want to have D.O. They rather have foreign trained M.D.


The best bet for you is to get into an allopathic surgery residency, finish and apply for plastics. However, I know my program never accept D.O.s, and perhaps never consider one.

That's a bunch of crap. I've been reading your past posts and you are awfully sympathetic to FMGs Is it because you were a FMG who couldn't get into any U.S. med school (MD or DO)? Don't give that type of lousy information just because you were lucky enough to matriculate into a surgery residency. How do you know what many prestigious institutions do? There are several D.O.s in many competitive residency programs. For instance, I noticed on another thread that there is a Chief Resident of Neurosurgery at UC Davis who is a D.O. I guess your general surgery residency at a small community hospital compares to that, huh?

Originally posted by surgery:

Dude,
If you don't improve your English, you will not be able to graduate Medical school at all. (Provided you get in!!!!!)

I also noticed your criticism of another member's english. Dude, look at your own post!!!

If you read old threads, or talk to other members other than "surgery", you will find that the pecking order is usually: US MD, US DO, and then FMG. D.O.s can also opt to do a DO residency. Definitely go to a US allopathic school if you get in. I have nothing against FMGs but the way the system is setup now, it is extremely difficult for an FMG to get into a US residency. Just go to the International section and you will see a ton of frustrated FMGs who didn't match or didn't get interviewed. Of course there are exceptions like "surgery". No, I'm not a D.O., I just think you are providing inaccurate information.
I've been receiving a lot of criticsm on another section of SDN so I don't want to start another argument here. I know you'll probably rip on me but I'm not going to respond. My point is that you should read the opinions of other members or talk to other surgery residents. I just wanted to offer a different point of view. Don't go just by what I say and certainly not "surgery".

[This message has been edited by loukary (edited 01-21-2001).]