Supreme Court Ruling, Race based admissions.

[StressfulMD]

The colleges are capable of making a tunnel out of this hole.

I'm curious - how do you think colleges and medical schools would be able to do so? Through things like "Other Impactful Experiences" essays (as it pertains to AMCAS)? I'd imagine that in the future, the debate on what information is being redacted or not redacted in applications will be a messy fight in and of itself.

You are right, though, that institutions of higher education can still find a way to recruit a diverse student body, or at the very least find a way to incorporate race. Maybe. Time will tell.

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[Pipi&Pomegranate]

Personally, I'm not opposed to this ruling. A poor white or Asian applicant who overcame a lot should be given similar considerations as their black or Hispanic peers. A black/Hispanic student with double physician parents or >$400k income should not be given preferential treatment just to meet metrics to appear more diverse. All else being equal, that first group probably has more to offer to the class / future colleagues. Just my thoughts.

Agree. Time to move on to diversity of thoughts.

 

[enchantedcalendarfruit]

Personally, I'm not opposed to this ruling. A poor white or Asian applicant who overcame a lot should be given similar considerations as their black or Hispanic peers. A black/Hispanic student with double physician parents or >$400k income should not be given preferential treatment just to meet metrics to appear more diverse. All else being equal, that first group probably has more to offer to the class / their future colleagues, so I hope this ruling can help boost economic diversity within the medical field. Just my thoughts.

That's basically my read of who wins and who loses. The students who are URMs but are otherwise very typical of the type of person who attends medical school (wealthy, multi-generation physician/professional, excellent high schools, overserved areas) will be hurt tremendously.

Students who are not racially diverse compared to the physician workforce (aka white/Asian) but are otherwise differentiated from the typical medical student (LGBT+, poor, first-gen college, rural, underserved areas) are likely to benefit significantly.

Schools will seek diversity by shifting to heavier weights on interviews, essays, family history and away from test scores, GPAs and identified race.

 

[deleted1166622]

These are my thoughts and humble opinions …

I wholeheartedly welcome the Supreme Court decision. Time to stop treating Asian American citizen children with hatred and as second class citizens.

But, I feel that the Supreme Court should have avoided giving colleges an opening to circumvent their own ruling. The colleges are capable of making a tunnel out of this hole. If using race in admissions is unconstitutional, how come letting applicants mentioning their race in their application to gain admission is not? Baffles me. This is like saying “you cannot kill the Asian Americans with guns but you can use knife “. We all know how the colleges interpreted the court’s past directive “use race as one of the many factors as the tie breaker “ as “race as the most determining factor “. Also, they should’ve directed colleges to use only objective admission criteria or at least have an open admissions system (making the applications and decisions public) so that the process will be honest. You can already see discussion happening here on how colleges can circumvent the decision. Even our own president calls the colleges to ignore the Supreme Court decision and continue with the discrimination.

Though this decision will never stop the colleges from practicing racial discrimination, it will certainly slow it down. The last five years or so, things were getting extremely rough for ORMs especially the Asian Americans (Our only state medical school didn’t even offer interviews to many highly qualified applicants with 520+ even though their average is only 512, in the past cycle). Now it might slow down. I don’t believe colleges can boast themselves of the racial demographics of their student body anymore . So there is no incentive to practice discrimination and no pressure on colleges who intend to be fair and impartial, at least they can peacefully stop the racial discrimination.

Also, those colleges who would plan to circumvent the decision will feel a lot more pressure on them now because more number of aggrieved students will file a lawsuit. They will be mindful of that. Colleges cannot reject an Asian American applicant with 3.9+, 524+ and hope to sleep peacefully anymore . They will surely approach the courts. That’s a good thing.

You know that stats still aren't everything right? I've heard of URM with immaculate stats getting rejected even. This isn't going to be a magical boost for everyone with a 3.9+ and a 520+.

 

[MrPuff]

Harvard's like, you can't tell me what to do, you're not the boss of me.

 

[senecca]

I mean, how can you know they weren't accepted due to their race? You're replying to someone who was an ORM and accepted despite having lower stats, so shouldn't that indicate their stats + race weren't the thing gatekeeping them?

This is exactly why I mentioned open admission system in my post. In fact, having a neutral third party doing the admission will remove all the doubts.

 

[senecca]

I'm curious - how do you think colleges and medical schools would be able to do so? Through things like "Other Impactful Experiences" essays (as it pertains to AMCAS)? I'd imagine that in the future, the debate on what information is being redacted or not redacted in applications will be a messy fight in and of itself.

You are right, though, that institutions of higher education can still find a way to recruit a diverse student body, or at the very least find a way to incorporate race. Maybe. Time will tell.

The following is the reaction from Harvard on the Supreme Court decision…. This is how they will make a tunnel .. They will read the essay, check the race box and sort the applicants. Not a big deal.

The statement indicates Harvard's belief that it can still account for race in admissions in some form by asking students how or whether they believe their race has impacted their life.

 

[Stoasty]

I feel like I'm misreading this, but can anyone clarify:

“In the 2003 ruling, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote that affirmative action programs should no longer be needed by 2028.

Conservative Justice Brett Kavanaugh, in a concurring opinion, said Thursday's ruling would apply first to those starting college in 2028 and that the decision therefore did not conflict with the 2003 ruling.”

Does this mean the decision won't matter for the next few years?

 

[sugasathya]

In few years the admission landscape will change with advent of Artificial Intelligence and cost of intelligence lowering, the knowledge metrics such as GPA and MCAT could become less valuable. With the dilution in money value, people might not flock to MD for money and truly with service oriented self fulfillment. This will be true for other high paying jobs as well.

 

[enchantedcalendarfruit]

This is exactly why I mentioned open admission system in my post. In fact, having a neutral third party doing the admission will remove all the doubts.

Nobody is truly neutral though. Everyone thinks of themselves as just, fair and ethical but to another they are prejudicial.

For my money, the best system is one that is transparent with clear cutoffs for consideration, a simple fitness interview and then a lottery. You could give more entries to students who have overcome hardship, score significantly above cutoffs, or are willing to apply early decision. I don't think we will ever get that system but to me it's the fairest to all. The idea that MCAT, GPA, ECs and all the rest are purely meritocratic is folly, IMO. The admissions system, as with so much of life, is rooted in good fortune. Explicitly acknowledging would go a long way.

It will never happen but to me it's the best alternative and I think it would have the bonus of helping students mental well-being. There is something very liberating not having to deal with the opaque adcoms.

 

[enchantedcalendarfruit]

is SES status really as much of a zero-sum game in admissions though?

I don't think SES is zero sum but the spots available are. The admissions teams will seek to achieve racial diversity without using race. Therefore, students who have the other characteristics of previously admitted black/hispanic applicants will benefit regardless of race. The students who looks more like Asian or white students from prior years on dimensions other than race will be pushed down in odds of acceptance.

 

[please.let.me.in]

Personally, I'm not opposed to this ruling. A poor white or Asian applicant who overcame a lot should be given similar considerations as their black or Hispanic peers. A black/Hispanic student with double physician parents or >$400k income should not be given preferential treatment just to meet metrics to appear more diverse. All else being equal, that first group probably has more to offer to the class / their future colleagues, so I hope this ruling can help boost economic diversity within the medical field. Just my thoughts.

^^^This right here!!! Overall, this seems like it will be a big win for low SES students from traditionally ORM backgrounds. These are the students that don't have the same resources/advice/connections as their peers that may look the same as them but are judged as if they do because of their color. I feel like schools will probably use SES as a proxy for race in the coming years, which will help these types of students even more since their high stats will now look even better in light of their SES.

 

[senecca]

L take, let’s say we switch to a system like Korea or Taiwan where you literally need to score perfect on the college admission exam (pretty much the equivalent of 4.0 528 here), an “ORM” with a 3.7-3.8 513 who thinks they would have gotten in without AA would STILL not get in lol

No issue if someone with 513 didn’t get in. But someone with 505 getting in, but not someone with 513 is the problem. Treat everyone equally, that’s what Supreme Court says.

 

[deleted1166622]

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My point still stands. You're not getting into Harvard because you have a 524 and a 3.95.

 

[Stoasty]

No issue if someone with 513 didn’t get in. But someone with 505 getting in, but not someone with 513 is the problem. Treat everyone equally, that’s what Supreme Court says.

That's only a problem if the MCAT is the sole determinor of one's app, which it isn't. Adcoms here have repeatedly said that past a certain point ( I think low 500s is the common one I saw) the MCAT score has diminshing value in regards to success in med school.

 

[rainbowsunshine]

I feel like I'm misreading this, but can anyone clarify:



Does this mean the decision won't matter for the next few years?

@gyngyn @LizzyM @Moko @Mr.Smile12

 

[2024 or 5 ?]

That's basically my read of who wins and who loses. The students who are URMs but are otherwise very typical of the type of person who attends medical school (wealthy, multi-generation physician/professional, excellent high schools, overserved areas) will be hurt tremendously.

Students who are not racially diverse compared to the physician workforce (aka white/Asian) but are otherwise differentiated from the typical medical student (LGBT+, poor, first-gen college, rural, underserved areas) are likely to benefit significantly.

Schools will seek diversity by shifting to heavier weights on interviews, essays, family history and away from test scores, GPAs and identified race.

Let's agree to a diversity of thought, and ignore race. The admissions committees appear to engage in groupthink. The current system has been downright racist, especially towards male Asians. China, Korea, Vietnam and Japan are far more diverse than countries in Europe, yet all Asians are lumped together.

Certain schools such as Riverside and FIU have programs that help with a track form undergrad into medical school. I foresee more or these.

 

[deleted1166622]

Let's agree to a diversity of thought, and ignore race. The admissions committees appear to engage in groupthink. The current system has been downright racist, especially towards male Asians. China, Korea, Vietnam and Japan are far more diverse than countries in Europe, yet all Asians are lumped together.

Certain schools such as Riverside and FIU have programs that help with a track form undergrad into medical school. I foresee more or these.

Asians constitute 21% of the medical student graduates despite constituting 6% of the population. How is the system rigged against them?

 

[deleted1166622]

514 mcat avg matriculant

And?

 

[senecca]

Maybe the school knows 520+ applicants won't attend your state school even if they are admitted, however good you may think your school is.

How does the college know and what if they were wrong? The school is running on the tax money they contributed to and the college took the application fee to process the application truthfully and honestly. Isn’t it? What if the accepted student went somewhere else? If colleges can reject thousands of applicants, what if some accepted applicants chose different school to attend? In the current tuition situation , I don’t think anyone would give up on a cheap instate tuition.

 

[senecca]

Asians constitute 21% of the medical student graduates despite constituting 6% of the population. How is the system rigged against them?

Why Asian Americans don’t constitute 6% of NBA, NFL, NHL etc? Not even .5%

 

[deleted1141182]

and what about the first generation asian students who have to work full time jobs during school to make ends meet? They have to score in the 90+ percentile on the mcat in their second language, just to be considered "average." Its not fair to them.

It is not hard to get a 514. Just schedule your exam further out.

 

[docdoc912]

and what about the first generation asian students who have to work full time jobs during school to make ends meet? They have to score in the 90+ percentile on the mcat in their second language, just to be considered "average." Its not fair to them.

They have the same opportunity as everyone else to talk about that in their personal statement or other essays, do you think admission committees are ignoring the hardship of Asians? A lot of you have no idea how the admission process works and it’s sad. Even with this ruling not everyone with a 520 is getting in to medical school.

 

[deleted1166622]

Why Asian Americans don’t constitute 6% of NBA, NFL, NHL etc? Not even .5%

Well, why aren't you closing that gap? Do you want to be an NHL player? This is a false equivalency.

 

[toastedbutter]

Schools that serve particular underserved patient populations (UChicago, BU come to mind) still need students matriculating who will be able to properly care for those people and will continue to look for applicants with a demonstrated record of service in those patient populations. If you are from a URM background, you might organically have a longer track record and more service hours working with those populations which will make you an attractive candidate for such schools. I imagine that's another unofficial way in which students from URM backgrounds could still earn some preference.

 

[senecca]

Well, why aren't you closing that gap? Do you want to be an NHL player? This is a false equivalency.

So, basically you are saying it is up to the Asian Americans to work and practice hard and close the gap , not the NFL, right? I agree with you. That’s the answer to your earlier question.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Schools will seek diversity by shifting to heavier weights on interviews, essays, family history and away from test scores, GPAs and identified race.

SJT's: Casper and PREview all the way!

 

[deleted1166622]

So, basically you are saying it is up to the Asian Americans to work and practice hard and close the gap , not the NFL, right? I agree with you. That’s the answer to your earlier question.

Is it not important to have doctors representing the populations they treat? Would that not necessitate active recruitment of underrepresented populations in medicine? Again, this is a false equivalency.

 

[gyngyn]

Here is the response of the UC: UC statement on SCOTUS decision regarding the use of race in college admissions

 

[Pipi&Pomegranate]

Is it not important to have doctors representing the populations they treat? Would that not necessitate active recruitment of underrepresented populations in medicine? Again, this is a false equivalency.

It is important. That's why we VERY much need diversity. However, don't you want doctors with the same merit to represent the population they treat and share the same values? Not just race?

 

[candylover1729391]

Will this decision even have effects right away? Because Conservative Justice Brett Kavanaugh said today’s ruling would apply first to those starting college in 2028. Unless I’m missing something…

 

[deleted1166622]

It is important. That's why we VERY much need diversity. However, don't you want doctors with the same merit to represent the population they treat and share the same values? Not just race?

I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But racial experiences are important too. Being a Black or Latino person in America is a shared experience among multiple socioeconomic stratifications.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No school is rejecting a 3.9+ 524+ applicant because they are white or Asian. Unsuccessful applicants with these stats usually have significant deficiencies unrelated to their race. Just my thoughts.

As an ORM parent with a kid with those stats I agree 💯. My kid had great cycle 2 years back despite being ORM, slightly underaged and not having thousands of service hours but strong research and meaningful experiences and didn’t follow the crowd with ECs. It takes good planning for ORMs to succeed though and I don’t think SC ruling changed anything. Affirmative action was banned in CA a while back but we all know that didn’t change much.

 

[Pipi&Pomegranate]

I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But racial experiences are important too. Being a Black or Latino person in America is a shared experience among multiple socioeconomic stratifications.

Yes. If you look at my previous reply, that's exactly what I said too. Not race but experience associated with race matters!

 

[Stoasty]

So, basically you are saying it is up to the Asian Americans to work and practice hard and close the gap , not the NFL, right? I agree with you. That’s the answer to your earlier question.

I think it's disengenious to pretend like the selection criteria for professional sports players merits the same considerations and societal implications as the selection criteria for physicians.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

How does the college know and what if they were wrong? The school is running on the tax money they contributed to and the college took the application fee to process the application truthfully and honestly. Isn’t it? What if the accepted student went somewhere else? If colleges can reject thousands of applicants, what if some accepted applicants chose different school to attend? In the current tuition situation , I don’t think anyone would give up on a cheap instate tuition.

I am not sure if you lack managerial skills/knowledge where you have to allocate limited resources (time, interviewers, funding, etc)

 

[senecca]

Schools that serve particular underserved patient populations (UChicago, BU come to mind) still need students matriculating who will be able to properly care for those people and will continue to look for applicants with a demonstrated record of service in those patient populations. If you are from a URM background, you might organically have a longer track record and more service hours working with those populations which will make you an attractive candidate for such schools. I imagine that's another unofficial way in which students from URM backgrounds could still earn some preference.

We are doing everything wrong the way by guessing based on assumptions. We just have ask the applicants if they are willing to sign a legal contract to serve underserved populations for x number of years. Volunteering for underserved community is not a guarantee that he will serve the population after becoming a physician

 

[deleted1166622]

We are doing everything wrong the way by guessing based on assumptions. We just have ask the applicants if they are willing to sign a legal contract to serve underserved populations for x number of years. Volunteering for underserved community is not a guarantee that he will serve the population after becoming a physician

You are so full of wishful thinking and naivete it is comical. I'm glad you are not in charge of admissions anywhere.

 

[chssoccer7]

We are doing everything wrong the way by guessing based on assumptions. We just have ask the applicants if they are willing to sign a legal contract to serve underserved populations for x number of years. Volunteering for underserved community is not a guarantee that he will serve the population after becoming a physician

I don't believe that has much of anything to do with what they are looking for in diversity of applicants. I think it is much more important that people have access to doctors that look like them, grew up like them, understand their lives. The data shows patients are much more likely to seek and adhere to medical advice from physicians they have a common link to. That is the intent behind diversity.

 

[2024 or 5 ?]

Here is the response of the UC: UC statement on SCOTUS decision regarding the use of race in college admissions
Based on numbers only the UC system is grossly racist towards whites. Whites make up 35% of the California population, but only 22% of the college admissions.

 

[Stoasty]

Here is the response of the UC: UC statement on SCOTUS decision regarding the use of race in college admissions

Based on numbers only the UC system is grossly racist towards whites. Whites make up 35% of the California population, but only 22% of the college admissions.

Affirmative Action has been banned in the UC system for decades now. So I don't imagine this will change anything for them.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I do agree that diversity matters in certain professions like medicine and law but does an upper middle class or rich URM have same sensitivities as poor URM or rural URM: who may have experienced more discrimination than urban URMs?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Affirmative Action has been banned in the UC system for decades now. So I don't imagine this will change anything for them.

I don’t think it made any difference for ORMs with medical school admissions

 

[solitarius]

Hot button issue. Not going away soon.

I see more lawsuits in the future.

 

[Stoasty]

I do agree that diversity matters in certain professions like medicine and law but does an upper middle class or rich URM have same sensitivities as poor URM or rural URM: who may have experienced more discrimination than urban URMs?

In my experience racist people generally don't ask for your tax bracket when deciding on whether to discriminate against you.

 

[sugasathya]

In my experience racist people generally don't ask for your tax bracket when deciding on whether to discriminate against you.

Social status is bigger than race. In general People would prefer want to hang out with a Black doctor than a low wage White person. Chronic racist people are really a minority, but since they make noise this issue is amplified. In general society evolves to respect all, especially on who contributes to higher economic output. Unfortunately this higher economic output is correlated with social status as well.

 

[candylover1729391]

I do agree that diversity matters in certain professions like medicine and law but does an upper middle class or rich URM have same sensitivities as poor URM or rural URM: who may have experienced more discrimination than urban URMs?

Uh, racists don’t care if you’re rich, they will still treat you terribly.

 

[Lawpy]

As an ORM parent with a kid with those stats I agree 💯. My kid had great cycle 2 years back despite being ORM, slightly underaged and not having thousands of service hours but strong research and meaningful experiences and didn’t follow the crowd with ECs. It takes good planning for ORMs to succeed though and I don’t think SC ruling changed anything. Affirmative action was banned in CA a while back but we all know that didn’t change much.

This quite literally is the most important thing. Which is also why i’m pushing for an end to legacy admissions because elite universities that favor the legacies by design allows those people to rack up extraordinary activities and be unique. Having affirmative action struck down but allowing legacy admissions to stay in place is a significant injustice

 

[deleted1139574]

That's basically my read of who wins and who loses. The students who are URMs but are otherwise very typical of the type of person who attends medical school (wealthy, multi-generation physician/professional, excellent high schools, overserved areas) will be hurt tremendously.

Students who are not racially diverse compared to the physician workforce (aka white/Asian) but are otherwise differentiated from the typical medical student (LGBT+, poor, first-gen college, rural, underserved areas) are likely to benefit significantly.

Schools will seek diversity by shifting to heavier weights on interviews, essays, family history and away from test scores, GPAs and identified race.

Focus on stats isn't going away

 

[Stoasty]

Social status is bigger than race. In general People would prefer want to hang out with a Black doctor than a low wage White person. Chronic racist people are really a minority, but since they make noise this issue is amplified. In general society evolves to respect all, especially on who contributes to higher economic output. Unfortunately this higher economic output is correlated with social status as well.

Unfortunately, race is a part of social status in America. Intersectionality is a thing. I can assure you there are many places where the low wage white person would be less discriminated against than the Black physician, and speaking from my own experiences being the only black kid growing up in my classes K-12, they didn't care how much money my mother made.