Supervising mid-level providers: Good or bad thing?

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goldsummer

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I'm job hunting. Some job have mandatory mid-level supervision. Some do not.

The ones that make it mandatory offer an extra something for it (one example: $7,000 extra a year)

My current thoughts: supervision is not worth it, considering the time it would take to review the charts of encounters I wasnt involved in and sign off, thereby increasing my liability with no significant monetary benefit... am I right or am I missing something? Especially being that I'll be a new attending and learning to be efficient myself with my own practice...


Do any of you supervise mid-levels? What are your thoughts?

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Supervising a mid level is worth about 60k per year or more depending, 7k is a joke and absolutely not worth your license
 
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7k! Lol

You can do 4-5 12hrs shift/year in an urgent care and make 7k.
 
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LOL mine was worth about $4k per year. Separate contract (Midlevel supervision is paid by the hospital directly, and not part of my regular employment contract through the healthcare organization). I told them to take a hike, and I’m glad I did.
 
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There are too many variables left unanswered by the OP to provide an insightful answer here. NPs and PAs operate under different statutes by state. Your responsibilities in supervision will depend on these statutes, the experience of the NP or PA, the type of clinic you are working within, your experience with supervision, and will change as you work with the same team over time.

The 2 NPs that I supervise require no more supervision than any physician that I have supervised at this point. I was a preceptor for them as students, hired them for their first job, and provided more intensive direct supervision and training in the first year. My professional life is highly satisfactory at this time and a large part of this can be attributed to the team I work with. I receive no income supplement for my supervisory roles.

If you make income your primarily variable for employment decisions, many factors that are vital to professional satisfaction may be left up to chance.
 
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Short answer, no, don't do it.
Somewhat longer answer, can you put a price on your license?
There's a big movement towards midlevels brought on by a lot of lobbying from nursing associations and administration, physicians are not recognizing this and will pay the price for it eventually. Primary care first.
 
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Short answer, no, don't do it.
Somewhat longer answer, can you put a price on your license?
There's a big movement towards midlevels brought on by a lot of lobbying from nursing associations and administration, physicians are not recognizing this and will pay the price for it eventually. Primary care first.

wrong. midlevels were only necessary because there was a shortage of docs in certain areas, but not others. NP's have already gotten full practice authority in almost half the states, yet in those states, they don't replace anybody, because they are slower, more liable, and riskier for hospitals to hire without physician oversight, unless the hospital is so down in the dumps and in a poor area they are forced to hire midlevels.

They can lobby all they want, the public, and congress, view them as simply nurses and the public views nursing as a job most people can do- but an important job none the less. As a result they view NP as an extension of nursing aka a job that is manual labor without thinking and a job most people could have done. They don't view physicians that way.
 
There are too many variables left unanswered by the OP to provide an insightful answer here. NPs and PAs operate under different statutes by state. Your responsibilities in supervision will depend on these statutes, the experience of the NP or PA, the type of clinic you are working within, your experience with supervision, and will change as you work with the same team over time.

The 2 NPs that I supervise require no more supervision than any physician that I have supervised at this point. I was a preceptor for them as students, hired them for their first job, and provided more intensive direct supervision and training in the first year. My professional life is highly satisfactory at this time and a large part of this can be attributed to the team I work with. I receive no income supplement for my supervisory roles.

If you make income your primarily variable for employment decisions, many factors that are vital to professional satisfaction may be left up to chance.

That's insane. You take all the liability and you get nothing in return?
 
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That's insane. You take all the liability and you get nothing in return?
Not to mention selling out the profession and screwing over the next generation of docs
 
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Not to mention selling out the profession and screwing over the next generation of docs

These types of arrangements set bad precedents for future.

*job interview*

Doc: "Hello Mr. MBAbossmansir. I look forward to getting started, although I do have a reservation about the midlevel supervision clause. What is the compensation per midlevel supervised?"

Mr. MBABossmansir: "Nothing extra. It is all included in your regular compensation"

Doc: "None?"

Mr. MBABossmansir: "That is correct. All of our employed physicians providers work the same way..."

Doc: "What if more midlevels are hired to accommodate increasing clinic volumes? Will I be expected to supervise even more with no increase in pay?

Mr. MBABossmansir: "well..."

Doc: "I don't think I can take this offer as is."

Mr. MBABossmansir: "All of our midlevels providers are exceptional. I can introduce you to simpler2 who would speak on behalf of our excellent nurse practitioners. None of the other doctors have any problems with the arrangement. Why is this such a concern for you? All of our providers are expected to work collaboratively in our team culture. We don't like disruptive individuals who aren't team players."

Doc: *thinks of their student loans and their spouse that just got a good job in town. Also thinks about how the employer runs 80% of the hospitals in town and that refusing this offer might jeopardize their chances of getting a job in town...*

*sighs*

"Well...I guess its OK."

*signs contract*

*somewhere someplace an angel dies*
 
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wrong. midlevels were only necessary because there was a shortage of docs in certain areas, but not others. NP's have already gotten full practice authority in almost half the states, yet in those states, they don't replace anybody, because they are slower, more liable, and riskier for hospitals to hire without physician oversight, unless the hospital is so down in the dumps and in a poor area they are forced to hire midlevels.

They can lobby all they want, the public, and congress, view them as simply nurses and the public views nursing as a job most people can do- but an important job none the less. As a result they view NP as an extension of nursing aka a job that is manual labor without thinking and a job most people could have done. They don't view physicians that way.

Lol. I'm going to go off your position on the ladder.. you need to actually be in the position of a working physician and deal with admin before you make an assumption like the above, as a medical student. Whats worse is whomever is actually teaching you the above is doing you a huge disservice because that's exactly what they need to do to make it happen. Grass roots manipulation = no resistance when you're faced with the scenario as you see that as the 'norm'.

@qwerty89 has basically given you a great example of what i'm talking about in her/his post.

If you still aren't convinced, talk to docs who are faced with supervising midlevels to see how they feel about it. I could have given you great examples that break your rebuttal of how the public & congress sees them, but I won't, simply because, if you search about 4-5 threads below this one you'll see many posts about this. Another thing to think about, you need to look at how many midlevels (don't get me started on this, but they're fighting against this term as well) are actually going into primary care to 'fill in the cracks', vs. going into derm, cardio etc. etc. Anecdotal as much, but ALL of the nurses that I worked with in the hospital who went to do "np school", did NOT go into primary care.
 
Lol. I'm going to go off your position on the ladder.. you need to actually be in the position of a working physician and deal with admin before you make an assumption like the above, as a medical student. Whats worse is whomever is actually teaching you the above is doing you a huge disservice because that's exactly what they need to do to make it happen. Grass roots manipulation = no resistance when you're faced with the scenario as you see that as the 'norm'.

@qwerty89 has basically given you a great example of what i'm talking about in her/his post.

If you still aren't convinced, talk to docs who are faced with supervising midlevels to see how they feel about it. I could have given you great examples that break your rebuttal of how the public & congress sees them, but I won't, simply because, if you search about 4-5 threads below this one you'll see many posts about this. Another thing to think about, you need to look at how many midlevels (don't get me started on this, but they're fighting against this term as well) are actually going into primary care to 'fill in the cracks', vs. going into derm, cardio etc. etc. Anecdotal as much, but ALL of the nurses that I worked with in the hospital who went to do "np school", did NOT go into primary care.

Supervising Nurse Practitioners

"Nurse practitioners are one of the fastest-growing fields of primary care medicine in Texas, where more than 16,000 are currently practicing, and around the country, where the number of nurse practitioners has doubled to more than 200,000 in the past decade alone. As they have become more prevalent, nurse practitioners have started pushing to become increasingly independent practitioners of medicine. So far they are autonomous in the District of Columbia and 22 states — but not Texas. But there has been a pronounced effort to give nurse practitioners the right to practice to the “full extent of their license and education” in recent years.

This has been met with frustration and anger by medical doctors, who insist nurse practitioners are good at what they do but should not be allowed to work independently since they have less medical training and their education is handled in an entirely different way. (It’s such a controversial subject that most of the doctors the Houston Press spoke to for this story agreed to do so on condition of anonymity, because they say they could lose their jobs.)

...

Memorial Hermann has replaced primary care physicians with nurse practitioners in its clinics, according to Houston doctor Latisha Rowe (she was replaced by a nurse practitioner when she left one of the Memorial Hermann clinics, she says), and Houston Methodist already has a special emergency team that is led by nurse practitioners, according to its website. The U.S. Department of Labor Statistics predicts that nurse practitioners will be used even more in coming years since they are cheaper to hire and help both hospitals and medical offices cut costs while increasing the number of medical providers.

Dr. Kara Baker (not her real name) is a hospitalist, a doctor who sees patients only in hospitals, in the Memorial Hermann Health System. Baker says that Memorial Hermann has been quietly considering moving to a system in which each physician will oversee two or three nurse practitioners at a time both in hospital emergency rooms and within the hospital system itself.

If that happens, Baker says, she will have no choice but to take on nurse practitioners — and the liability that comes with any mistakes they may make — because it is in the contract Memorial Hermann has doctors sign.
But it will be difficult, she says, because so much of what nurse practitioners do is vaguely defined."


I understand why the individual docs are afraid to release their real names. The fear of retribution is huge. Fear that their hospital employer will fire them. Fear that the nursing clan will find ways to make their life miserable at work. Tons of nasty reviews on online review sites. Extra pages at work. Getting written up for any perceived slight.
 
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These types of arrangements set bad precedents for future.

*job interview*

Doc: "Hello Mr. MBAbossmansir. I look forward to getting started, although I do have a reservation about the midlevel supervision clause. What is the compensation per midlevel supervised?"

Mr. MBABossmansir: "Nothing extra. It is all included in your regular compensation"

Doc: "None?"

Mr. MBABossmansir: "That is correct. All of our employed physicians providers work the same way..."

Doc: "What if more midlevels are hired to accommodate increasing clinic volumes? Will I be expected to supervise even more with no increase in pay?

Mr. MBABossmansir: "well..."

Doc: "I don't think I can take this offer as is."

Mr. MBABossmansir: "All of our midlevels providers are exceptional. I can introduce you to simpler2 who would speak on behalf of our excellent nurse practitioners. None of the other doctors have any problems with the arrangement. Why is this such a concern for you? All of our providers are expected to work collaboratively in our team culture. We don't like disruptive individuals who aren't team players."

Doc: *thinks of their student loans and their spouse that just got a good job in town. Also thinks about how the employer runs 80% of the hospitals in town and that refusing this offer might jeopardize their chances of getting a job in town...*

*sighs*

"Well...I guess its OK."

*signs contract*

*somewhere someplace an angel dies*

I laugh because it’s so true. I bucked the trend and passed on the midlevel supervision. Luckily it worked out well for me.
 
Supervising Nurse Practitioners

"Nurse practitioners are one of the fastest-growing fields of primary care medicine in Texas, where more than 16,000 are currently practicing, and around the country, where the number of nurse practitioners has doubled to more than 200,000 in the past decade alone. As they have become more prevalent, nurse practitioners have started pushing to become increasingly independent practitioners of medicine. So far they are autonomous in the District of Columbia and 22 states — but not Texas. But there has been a pronounced effort to give nurse practitioners the right to practice to the “full extent of their license and education” in recent years.

This has been met with frustration and anger by medical doctors, who insist nurse practitioners are good at what they do but should not be allowed to work independently since they have less medical training and their education is handled in an entirely different way. (It’s such a controversial subject that most of the doctors the Houston Press spoke to for this story agreed to do so on condition of anonymity, because they say they could lose their jobs.)

...

Memorial Hermann has replaced primary care physicians with nurse practitioners in its clinics, according to Houston doctor Latisha Rowe (she was replaced by a nurse practitioner when she left one of the Memorial Hermann clinics, she says), and Houston Methodist already has a special emergency team that is led by nurse practitioners, according to its website. The U.S. Department of Labor Statistics predicts that nurse practitioners will be used even more in coming years since they are cheaper to hire and help both hospitals and medical offices cut costs while increasing the number of medical providers.

Dr. Kara Baker (not her real name) is a hospitalist, a doctor who sees patients only in hospitals, in the Memorial Hermann Health System. Baker says that Memorial Hermann has been quietly considering moving to a system in which each physician will oversee two or three nurse practitioners at a time both in hospital emergency rooms and within the hospital system itself.

If that happens, Baker says, she will have no choice but to take on nurse practitioners — and the liability that comes with any mistakes they may make — because it is in the contract Memorial Hermann has doctors sign.
But it will be difficult, she says, because so much of what nurse practitioners do is vaguely defined."


I understand why the individual docs are afraid to release their real names. The fear of retribution is huge. Fear that their hospital employer will fire them. Fear that the nursing clan will find ways to make their life miserable at work. Tons of nasty reviews on online review sites. Extra pages at work. Getting written up for any perceived slight.

Oh I know about HM and MHMG!
I considered these two players when I moved to Houston for employment. That's basically what I saw. HM was also very "driven" by admin, ended up not signing with either.
 
For me to supervise a mid-level, I'd have to hire one. That ain't happening.
 
Just a premed here but interested in FM so I'm curious. What is the consensus on autonomy for NPs/PAs? Should there be more so the liability falls on them and the institutions that hire them rather than a supervising doc?

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