Suggestion of reasonable NYC programs

[nycsicko]

just make sure you interview at any program you like and see that it feels good and that they see a lot of material.

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[LADoc00]

OMG, Sleestak reference!

you have my attention now.

 

[sinaility]

Everyone, please be careful as to the "gossip" that goes on in this forum. I find that this kind of talk is very juvenile and more of a penis-measuring-contest. People tend to listen to gossip and, without thinking, spread it. I guess they are attempting to seem well informed, even if they have never seen direct evidence. This is where things border on slander. Also, there tends to be a lot of "hero" worshipping in this forum. Every academic department has relative big names in something. I really don't think this will directly make you a great pathologist or make your career. The constant mention of "Big Names" seems very subjective, pretentious, and passive to me. I personally don't feel fulfilled eating scraps from the academically elite dinner table.

I'm a resident at Mt. Sinai and can say that my program is probably one of the most NYC-controversial programs. A lot of what LA DOC says about NYC having funding issues is true. I have many friends in various clinical and surgical programs here in the city and they have to do many more blood draws, medication administrations, etc. than other programs in the country. The same applies for pathology; lots of very expensive real estate and ancillary staff salaries to pay. Now add 150,000 species a year to that picture.

However, Mount Sinai has great case volume, specialized attendings, and well organized didactics. There are organizational issues with an understaffed histology lab and secretary's office. So, in sum, the average Mt. Sinai resident probably works harder than residents at other programs (educational work and some noneducational work). Lastly Mt. Sinai has a unique place in regards to its status. It's a first class medical school and medical center with over 1,500 beds and specialty clinics that encompass all of Park, Madison, and 5th Ave, as well as Jersey, other boroughs, Long Island, Upstate, and Connecticut. Its similar to Mayo or Cleveland Clinic as it has no major university backing (NYU just stamps the diploma). So, its exceptionally strong in its clinical training, but the basic science research aspect is, for some reason, confined mostly to the school of biological sciences. The attendings are involved with these projects, but the residents are mostly restricted to clinical projects (low impact factor). I have to say though that it is a superb place for diagnostic and practical training with very few rivals.

I know several path residents from Cornell and can say they are very happy. Additionally, the ones that I personally know are exceptionally trained. Also, I feel one should be very careful mentioning possible career moves and/or attacking individual attendings in a forum such as this. Without direct personal knowledge, I consider this sabotage and slander. Pathology is a very small community and gossip in rampant. In my experience, most of it is untrue. However, people seem to believe what they hear. Most of it is out of jealousy combined with poor social skills. Overall, it's a very dangerous and unprofessional practice.

Trying to elaborate on what LA Doc was getting at, I think NYC programs require their residents to troubleshoot and other cities don't impose this on their residents as much. Now, this can be viewed as a plus or a negative. I personally think this is an advantage, even though I'm pissed off about it sometimes. At the end of this rat race, I need to be able to provide top-notch patient care. Adhering to the "do no harm philosophy", the most dangerous aspect of pathology is not knowing what can go wrong. From the clinician's office to the microscope are many pitfalls that can result in "harm" done to the patient. Many "cush" programs don't bother their residents with this tedious stuff. In pathology, we must be excellent administrators as well as physician/scientists. We have to catch mistakes, understand the consequences of our diagnoses, and fully grasp the financial / billing / cost aspects of everyday practice. Unless you are content with signing out cases for someone elses's department / lab your entire career, you need to know these things if you ever want to be the captain of your own ship. In the end, I know I will appreciate my NYC-pathology training and will feel comfortable starting my own lab or division, since administration responsibilities are built into my program. Again, even though it frustrates the hell out of me sometimes, but I do go out in this great city every Friday and Saturday night.

Lastly, very few places can match MSKCC in terms of faculty, case load, research, or reputation. I don't care what anyone says, I do know that this is a nationwide consensus.

 

[Matte Kudesai]

Also, I feel one should be very careful mentioning possible career moves and/or attacking individual attendings in a forum such as this. Without direct personal knowledge, I consider this sabotage and slander. Pathology is a very small community and gossip in rampant. In my experience, most of it is untrue. However, people seem to believe what they hear. Most of it is out of jealousy combined with poor social skills. Overall, it's a very dangerous and unprofessional practice.

This is a valuable statement. Frankly the level of character assassination and slander that prevails in academic medicine is ridiculous.

 

[yaah]

This is a valuable statement. Frankly the level of character assassination and slander that prevails in academic medicine is ridiculous.

Indeed. I would like to think our generation is above the backbiting, competitiveness, etc that characterizes a lot of people in academic medicine (although obviously there are also lots of people who don't fit this description and are clear role models), but I don't think it will ever change. There will always be people who go into academic medicine who measure success in ways that result in others being made to feel smaller. It's sad, since one main purpose of academic medicine is to teach the next generation as well as further scientific advancement (with cooperation being an important factor). Academic medicine doesn't exist to glorify one's own personality.

The criticism you will hear of this from many is that it is naivity and this is "just the way things are." Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be. You don't have to buy into it. I think every resident knows attendings at their institution who they gravitate to because of their personalities, dedication to teaching, collegiality, etc, but they also know attendings who they may have a grudging respect for but they avoid because the atmosphere around them is somewhat less pleasant. For some reason, though, many residency graduates still end up being like the latter category.

 

[nycsicko]

just make sure you interview at any program you like and see that it feels good and that they see a lot of material.

 

[nycsicko]

Everyone, please be careful as to the "gossip" that goes on in this forum. I find that this kind of talk is very juvenile and more of a penis-measuring-contest. People tend to listen to gossip and, without thinking, spread it. I guess they are attempting to seem well informed, even if they have never seen direct evidence. This is where things border on slander. Also, there tends to be a lot of "hero" worshipping in this forum. Every academic department has relative big names in something. I really don't think this will directly make you a great pathologist or make your career. The constant mention of "Big Names" seems very subjective, pretentious, and passive to me. I personally don't feel fulfilled eating scraps from the academically elite dinner table.

I'm a resident at Mt. Sinai and can say that my program is probably one of the most NYC-controversial programs. A lot of what LA DOC says about NYC having funding issues is true. I have many friends in various clinical and surgical programs here in the city and they have to do many more blood draws, medication administrations, etc. than other programs in the country. The same applies for pathology; lots of very expensive real estate and ancillary staff salaries to pay. Now add 150,000 species a year to that picture.

However, Mount Sinai has great case volume, specialized attendings, and well organized didactics. There are organizational issues with an understaffed histology lab and secretary's office. So, in sum, the average Mt. Sinai resident probably works harder than residents at other programs (educational work and some noneducational work). Lastly Mt. Sinai has a unique place in regards to its status. It’s a first class medical school and medical center with over 1,500 beds and specialty clinics that encompass all of Park, Madison, and 5th Ave, as well as Jersey, other boroughs, Long Island, Upstate, and Connecticut. Its similar to Mayo or Cleveland Clinic as it has no major university backing (NYU just stamps the diploma). So, its exceptionally strong in its clinical training, but the basic science research aspect is, for some reason, confined mostly to the school of biological sciences. The attendings are involved with these projects, but the residents are mostly restricted to clinical projects (low impact factor). I have to say though that it is a superb place for diagnostic and practical training with very few rivals.

I know several path residents from Cornell and can say they are very happy. Additionally, the ones that I personally know are exceptionally trained. Also, I feel one should be very careful mentioning possible career moves and/or attacking individual attendings in a forum such as this. Without direct personal knowledge, I consider this sabotage and slander. Pathology is a very small community and gossip in rampant. In my experience, most of it is untrue. However, people seem to believe what they hear. Most of it is out of jealousy combined with poor social skills. Overall, it's a very dangerous and unprofessional practice.

Trying to elaborate on what LA Doc was getting at, I think NYC programs require their residents to troubleshoot and other cities don't impose this on their residents as much. Now, this can be viewed as a plus or a negative. I personally think this is an advantage, even though I'm pissed off about it sometimes. At the end of this rat race, I need to be able to provide top-notch patient care. Adhering to the "do no harm philosophy", the most dangerous aspect of pathology is not knowing what can go wrong. From the clinician's office to the microscope are many pitfalls that can result in "harm" done to the patient. Many "cush" programs don't bother their residents with this tedious stuff. In pathology, we must be excellent administrators as well as physician/scientists. We have to catch mistakes, understand the consequences of our diagnoses, and fully grasp the financial / billing / cost aspects of everyday practice. Unless you are content with signing out cases for someone elses's department / lab your entire career, you need to know these things if you ever want to be the captain of your own ship. In the end, I know I will appreciate my NYC-pathology training and will feel comfortable starting my own lab or division, since administration responsibilities are built into my program. Again, even though it frustrates the hell out of me sometimes, but I do go out in this great city every Friday and Saturday night.

Lastly, very few places can match MSKCC in terms of faculty, case load, research, or reputation. I don't care what anyone says, I do know that this is a nationwide consensus.

HOSTILE MY NECRCOTIC ASS
yes yes yes we know
Sinai = volume
Cornell = housing
Columbia = Harlem
Einstein = Bronx
NYU = FMG's
MSKCC = fellowship only

so boring, please add something new.
and its only slander if its not true. Look it all up on the internet. Almost everything I said is fact checkable.

by the way i happen to be a BIG fan of Sinai pathology

 

[LADoc00]

HOSTILE MY NECRCOTIC ASS
yes yes yes we know
Sinai = volume
Cornell = housing
Columbia = Harlem
Einstein = Bronx
NYU = FMG's
MSKCC = fellowship only

so boring, please add something new.
and its only slander if its not true. Look it all up on the internet. Almost everything I said is fact checkable.

by the way i happen to be a BIG fan of Sinai pathology

Hmm so are NYU's reports in Mandarin or Catonese? Or should I say Guan or Yue? I would assume Wu, Xian, Xiang, Hakka, Gan, Hindi, Tamil, Sanskrit, Urdu and Punjabi are not options, but I dont know for sure.

 

[yaah]

As a reminder, please keep things civil. If they deteriorate, we close threads.

 

[nycsicko]

Hmm so are NYU's reports in Mandarin or Catonese? Or should I say Guan or Yue? I would assume Wu, Xian, Xiang, Hakka, Gan, Hindi, Tamil, Sanskrit, Urdu and Punjabi are not options, but I dont know for sure.

I'm not claiming these things are valid (of course the locations are true), I'm just saying those are the labels that get attached to those programs. I have no idea how many FMG's are at NYU but I know they have a lot of strong attendings and a good work volume.

 

[LADoc00]

As a reminder, please keep things civil. If they deteriorate, we close threads.

call the thunder, you get the lightning.

 

[gbwillner]

As a reminder, please keep things civil. If they deteriorate, we close threads.

Why? I was already enjoing some popcorn on this thread. If only that emoticon was available...

 

[KCShaw]

Keep in mind too that a pathology residency program's "prestige" may or may not have anything to do with their resident teaching.

Some may be "famous" because of research (which may be completely separate from residency, even in another building on another block run by uninvolved faculty), or a well-published name (who may or may not be much of a teacher, or may spend most of their time away at meetings, etc.), or a high volume (potentially a lot of opportunity, but also a lot of work and the risk of gruntworking more than seeing cases), or reknowned programs in -clinical- medicine (which may not translate to the path department), etc. Others are probably very justified in being considered "prestigious" by the masses, while some less famous programs may be absolute hidden gems in terms of the resident training, despite having fewer residents, a lower volume, fewer attendings, fewer local fellowships, gosh-darn fr'ners (never quite understood this reckless fear of FMG's, not to be confused with FMB's), in smaller cities, and affiliated with less reknowned medical schools/hospitals/universities.

Certainly a "big name" program can usually help you land a "big name" fellowship -- big names tend to have connections with one another -- and they usually do offer at least solid training, but it isn't the end-all-be-all of pathology. Don't confuse fame with great teaching -- it may, or may not, be there. Go, ask, and see for yourself as best you can, as many have already said.

 

[sinaility]

I think the reason this thread keeps appearing over and over again under different titles is for one simple reason.

Every time someone from an NYC program comments on the state of pathology in NYC (usually positive), others (not from NYC) jump in and comment to the contrary. The result is that applicants looking at NYC programs are most likely confused. Everyone knows that the application process for residency and fellowship training is very anxiety ridden. Unsubstantiated "blanket statement" posts just makes applicants even more anxious. Thus... the constant "NYC Programs" threads that are created every 4-6 months. These discouraging posts can be in the form of the subtle backhanded comments that NYC programs are overshadowed by the programs to the east, south, and the west. I guess the only reason that "north" isn't included is because that would pretty much mean Canada. I mean, is this statemement supposed to be perceived as fact with no bias? I've seen it posted by Yaah at least 4-5 times. So I guess there is at least an attempt to make people feel that it is a fact.

Then others comment that NYC is in shambles with only FMG residents and attendings. Now these statements aren't even true. Maybe NYC was full of FMGs back in the 80s-early 90s, but that is definitely not the case now. And... If it were still FMG heavy, I don't see why FMG status would be a negative. Also, of course there is going to be alot of regional bias in reputation. East coast people are more impressed with the east coast institutions. Midatlantic people are more impressed with midatlantic institutions. West coast people are more impressed with the west coast institutions, etc. It only makes sense because that is what they are most familiar with. To be honest, in my experience, the vast majority of people in NYC aren't even really familiar with the month-to-month specifics of other NYC programs, let alone places even as far out as Philly. At least not enough to make open statments about them in a public forum, of which this website is an example.

Now comments like, "NYC is way to expensive", are fair and legitimate comments to make about NYC and possible reasons for looking elsewhere. NYC is more expensive than say Houston, Cleveland, or Rochester, but it isn't much more expensive than Chicago, Boston, SF, or LA.

I think most of the "NYC program" comments in this forum posted by actual NYC people are nonpolitical, objective, and honest (subtracting the recent Cornell bash with no mention of the poster's institution). Most of these posts list the positives and the negatives. These people are taking the time to give direct insight about their institutions. That should be enough, respected, and left alone. Comments stemming from third or fourth hand knowlegde aren't very helpful (i.e. I was told by a Program Director who was told by a friend who left NYC 5 years ago says to stay away from NYC programs). Instead it tends to belittle the actual posters with first hand experience. I've been told to stay away from numerous "big name" places in the midwest and the south from "reliable" sources repeating to me third hand information. I don't post these comments or imply that these institutions "have problems" or that they fall into some 2nd or 3rd tier (whatever that means). I don't personally have proof, and to make these claims in a forum that is accessible to everyone is unprofessional and gossip. That is why SDN allows you to create threads asking NYC people about NYC programs, or to ask direct questions by sending private messages to people who have revealed their institution. And I really don't think a person looking at east coast programs is going to PM a person from the west coast. In making the big decision of what program to rank, I would want to get info directly from the horse's mouth.

This forum, while informal, has potential to be very dangerous and damaging. Unless you feel comfortable revealing your real name, making comments about an individual attending's career plans and/ or attacking specific people by their real name is cowardly and reckless.

Lastly, I think many individuals looking at programs in NYC are confused by the constant posted controversy of whether NYC programs are career gold or career suicide. That is why these "NYC" threads always end in a heated tone with New Yorkers usually being frustrated. I suggest applicants listen to the posters with first hand knowledge. Also, whoever posted that MSKCC is second tier, is hilarious. Come on, now that is definitely not objective good advice. I've actually been there before. Second tier, Hilarious!!!!

Sorry, but that's my two cents.

 

[yaah]

Indeed, I don't think MSKCC is second tier to anybody.

Thank you for your comments - however I would disagree that second hand knowledge is irrelevant or unnecessary. A lot of times that is all applicants have to go on, and people make decisions all the time by evaluating things that others say. In an ideal world, you evaluate everything for yourself, of course, and I think that is what everyone here continues to say and recommend. And there are many people with experience in these programs who don't have flattering things to say. I'm sorry, that's the way it is. My comments about NYC programs being overshadowed don't come from the fact that I don't like the city or I heard one guy say that once. I'm glad other people come on to post the contrary though, because it's important to hear alternative viewpoints. What is the best program for an individual depends on many many factors.

And of course what constitutes a "good" or "great" program is also open to interpretation and many have very little relevance to an individual applicant. That also sucks for the applicant because it makes it harder to evaluate, but it's an important thing to recognize. I think applicants come on here a lot looking for black and white answers to their questions, which often don't exist. But the more participation and expertise we get, the more helpful things can be. Even inflammatory comments can be somewhat revealing and helpful in their own way, at times.

And I agree that commenting about individuals' supposed career plans (particularly in a negative fashion) is suspect and probably unwise.

I think we all wish that more people would come on here and post advice/experiences about programs they are familiar with. Oftentimes we don't get that - people only jump in when they perceive a slight or a bias, or alternatively because they have an axe to grind. It's unfortunate but such is a fact of life in internet discourse. Personally, I don't mean to disparage programs in NYC, I am just presenting my opinion which I am entitled to do. If you don't agree with me, then post the contrary, which I'm glad you did.

 

[raider]

I agree saying MSKCC is second tier is a huge joke. Those guys get consults not only from all over the states, but from all over the world.
Regarding the FMG issue, some of the best pathologists are FMGs e.g. Fletcher, Rosai , Unni, Huvos etc. Anyone who belittles there contribution to pathology is not just looking at facts.
FMG or AMG, excellence is an individual not geographic thing.
In the end, good teachers and a good institution, help a lot. But the ultimate result depends on the individual.
If you are good at what you do and more importantly enjoy what you do, you will be recognized and rewarded.
I have trained with people who came from residency programs all over the states. They included people from the top programs and people from completely unrecognized programs. I learnt one thing from my experience, the only difference between exceptional pathologists and mediocre ones was intelligence and interest. The best ones simply loved what they did.
Being a good or even great pathologist is totally upto you. And trust me , mature people recognize excellence irrespective of nationality or institutional pedigree.
Cornell, Columbia etc. are all excellent institutions. It totally depends on your effort and what you want to get out of these institutions. As long as you see a lot and keep on increasing your knowledge base, you will be a success.

 

[nycsicko]

as the person who I suppose is meant to be the cornell "basher" i would only like to say.
1) I have said from the beginning that the most important thing for applicants to do is not take anything anyone says at face value and to look into things for themselves. You must also not accept it when people tell you a place is "great" just as you must not accept it when someone tells you it sucks.
2) I happen to think Cornell is honestly only an average program. I just had to write when people were saying it was the 'most prestigious" program in nyc. For the reasons I have stated previously, this CAN NOT be true. They simply do not have the volume of specimens or range and depth of attending expertise to compete with the larger programs. More importantly, if you are looking for good all around training regardless of the "prestige" you should go elsewhere. How are you supposed to learn about heart transplants when your hospital doesn't do heart transplants. How are you supposed to learn bone pathology when your hospital doesn't to neoplastic orthopedic surgery? Etc etc etc. You can't and this is what I mean when I encourage people to apply criteria when judging how strong a program is.
3) Honestly I was trying to poke a little fun at the cornell poster because he made a big comment about the housing which is seriously always the first thing you hear them talk about. This is to be sure a blessing, particularly here in NYC, but does not make a program prestigious.
4) I think if you read my posts they are generally positive. I have pointed out the flaws in the cornell program and I dared to suggest that UVA is not as strong as Emory and thats about it for the negativity.
5) Of course MSKCC is a powerhouse....duh...who said it wasn't?
6) I love FMG's. Who doesn't?

sooooo suck it

 

[sinaility]

Indeed. I would like to think our generation is above the backbiting, competitiveness, etc that characterizes a lot of people in academic medicine (although obviously there are also lots of people who don't fit this description and are clear role models), but I don't think it will ever change. There will always be people who go into academic medicine who measure success in ways that result in others being made to feel smaller. It's sad, since one main purpose of academic medicine is to teach the next generation as well as further scientific advancement (with cooperation being an important factor). Academic medicine doesn't exist to glorify one's own personality.

The criticism you will hear of this from many is that it is naivity and this is "just the way things are." Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be. You don't have to buy into it. I think every resident knows attendings at their institution who they gravitate to because of their personalities, dedication to teaching, collegiality, etc, but they also know attendings who they may have a grudging respect for but they avoid because the atmosphere around them is somewhat less pleasant. For some reason, though, many residency graduates still end up being like the latter category.

I think the reason many in academia are backbiting and slanderous is because it slowly creeps up on us. Its not like we become insecure, slanderous, monsters over night. You have to always be aware of your actions and fight to maintain our integrity and character, even if we are in competition with those who will do anything to get what they want. Its a slippery slope and people unintentionally slowly creep over to the dark side. For example, I think Yaah is a very intelligent and honest person that most likely is not trying to slander any program by repeating hearsay, but trying to provide applicants with information. The thing is, gossip is very tempting and contagious. I catch myself repeating these kinds of things all of the time. The biggest problem with hearsay is that it is almost always one-sided and since it is spread third or fourth hand, the motivations of the original statement are not known. Think of the childhood lesson of the "telephone game". By the time the story makes it to the last person, it is a totally different statement. If respected people of this forum spread hearsay gossip as advice, the entire forum falls rapidly into the gossip and slander of high school antics/politics.

 

[LADoc00]

what do you want you guys want?

Do you want people who have been through the process to contribute their thoughts OR do you only want the facts like surg path accession # that anyone can get by calling up the path offices?

As far as MSKCC, that is immaterial because AFAIK residents do not train there, only fellows. I dont think anyone would argue with the fact it is top notch world class cancer referral hospital, but that IS what it is, not more. (if that makes sense...)

Many people are not interested in training in NYC hospitals for a huge host of reasons, not limited to the following:
High cost of living
Perceived lack of job contacts outside the NY area
Perceived lack of quality interaction between trainees and high caliber faculty
Percieved lack of caring programs have for trainees

That is it, there isnt much to add. You can debate those points ad nausem. Why these threads keep reappearing is likely due to the apprehension and therefore posting needs applicants have. I dont think this is a conspiracy-driven attempt to bash NYC or NE in general.

 

[yaah]

Why these threads keep reappearing is likely due to the apprehension and therefore posting needs applicants have. I dont think this is a conspiracy-driven attempt to bash NYC or NE in general.

These threads also keep reappearing because every few months someone posts a "can anyone provide info about NYC path prgms?" thread. We would all be well served if more people came BACK to this forum once they do get into residency instead of restricting their visits to a couple of posts asking brief questions and then making themselves scarce. I think we have all seen how helpful it is to have those with experience with programs posting about them. I'm glad there are more people here from NY programs now.

Hearsay can of course be misleading, but it can also be revealing.

Now if we can just get more people to post about the Texas and Florida programs (I thank those of you that are here from there that do participate) that an equal number of threads get created about!

 

[raspberry009]

Now if we can just get more people to post about the Texas and Florida programs (I thank those of you that are here from there that do participate) that an equal number of threads get created about!

aaaah yes, wonderful Texas. Like I mentioned to the PA folks, be careful you might get sucked in. I used to refer to it as the "armpit of America" but I'm telling you, I can easily see myself here for the rest of my life. The southern hospitality is wonderful here. I don't think I have opened my own door in quite a long time.

One of the reasons we don't speak up is that we want to keep it all to ourselves. I don't mind outsiders thinking of Dallas and Houston as suboptimal cities cause then we can keep the low cost of living and gentleman all to oureslves...

 

[yaah]

Texas isn't the armpit, Connecticut is the armpit.

 

[raspberry009]

That is one small armpit if you ask me....

 

[sinaility]

what do you want you guys want?

Do you want people who have been through the process to contribute their thoughts OR do you only want the facts like surg path accession # that anyone can get by calling up the path offices?

As far as MSKCC, that is immaterial because AFAIK residents do not train there, only fellows. I dont think anyone would argue with the fact it is top notch world class cancer referral hospital, but that IS what it is, not more. (if that makes sense...)

Many people are not interested in training in NYC hospitals for a huge host of reasons, not limited to the following:
High cost of living
Perceived lack of job contacts outside the NY area
Perceived lack of quality interaction between trainees and high caliber faculty
Percieved lack of caring programs have for trainees

That is it, there isnt much to add. You can debate those points ad nausem. Why these threads keep reappearing is likely due to the apprehension and therefore posting needs applicants have. I dont think this is a conspiracy-driven attempt to bash NYC or NE in general.

Ok, to objectively answer your questions applying them to Mt. Sinai:

1) High cost of living: True, but no worse than Boston, Chicago, LA, or SF

2) Perceived lack of job contacts outside the NY area: Not true in terms of Sinai. Many grads have taken up residence at academic institutions all of the country. However, many Mt. Sinai grads do tend to want to stay in NYC or elsewhere in the east coast, which seems to never be a problem.

3) Perceived lack of quality interaction between trainees and high caliber faculty: Not true. Yes our faculty are very busy, but Sinai has an open door policy for all of its residents and fellows.

4) Percieved lack of caring programs have for trainees: Maybe. Many of the resident complaints are not effectively addressed. However, the resident group (to an extent) changes every year and I have to say that it would be impossible to constantly shuffle policy around and effectively manage all 150,000 cases. I will say though that nobody is let go without getting the fellowship or job that they want. Even when people leave Sinai for a fellowship elsewhere, Sinai pulls strings to get their residents and fellows the positions they want. So... loyalty is not a problem usually.

Hope this helps.

 

[nycsicko]

oook
I just have one question.

ARE THERE ANY MEDICAL STUDENTS READING THIS THREAD??????

 

[Tiki]

oook
I just have one question.

ARE THERE ANY MEDICAL STUDENTS READING THIS THREAD??????

I am. I've applied to Mt. Sinai, Cornell, Columbia and NYU. I already attended my Mt. Sinai interview and enjoyed my day. I feel like it a strong program.

Ultimately I'd like to end up in the mid-atlantic area when I'm done with residency, so a NYC program would probably help with that. I'm just not sure I want to deal with the cost of living issue, so I'm checking out some of the programs in the South as well.

 

[Neddy]

Ok, to objectively answer your questions applying them to Mt. Sinai:

1) High cost of living: True, but no worse than Boston, Chicago, LA, or SF

At the risk of being nitpicky, I've lived in NYC, Boston (and Connecticut, by the way, screw you Yaah ) in the last three years, and this is simply not true. The cost of living (i.e. rent) for comparable neighborhoods in Boston is 25-50% lower than NYC. Nowhere outside of California comes close.

 

[mcfaddens]

Texas isn't the armpit, Connecticut is the armpit.

You got that right!

 

[nycsicko]

I am. I've applied to Mt. Sinai, Cornell, Columbia and NYU. I already attended my Mt. Sinai interview and enjoyed my day. I feel like it a strong program.

Ultimately I'd like to end up in the mid-atlantic area when I'm done with residency, so a NYC program would probably help with that. I'm just not sure I want to deal with the cost of living issue, so I'm checking out some of the programs in the South as well.

congrats on your interviews. you can't go wrong with Sinai. It doesn't make up for the tremendous cost of living but for what its worth NYC programs do pay more (sometimes significantly more) that programs outside NYC. Just decide if you would like the experince of living here and if not there are great places elsewhere. I have a friend in OH who bought a big house as a 1st year.

let us know how your interviews go.

 

[mlw03]

oook
I just have one question.

ARE THERE ANY MEDICAL STUDENTS READING THIS THREAD??????

yeah, i'm an MS4, but i'm reading this thread for entertainment value only. i didn't apply to any NYC programs. but seeing everyone go ape **** on each other is amusing.

 

[Sean2tall]

I keep checking back on this thread - I feel like the illegitimate father of it or something, since I originally posted it, although I ended up not really needing to add more NYC programs.

 

[Brougham]

Wow, I guess I need to check this site more often. Over the past couple of years I have usually refrained from responding to the Cornell smack-downs that seem to occur at least once an interview cycle. My reasons for this are not that I don’t have pride and loyalty to the institution at which I trained (I finished my AP/CP training at Cornell in July and am currently a fellow at MSKCC) but for several other reasons. First, these post have in no way hurt Cornell’s ability to recruit excellent residents year after year. Second, the posts are typically opinion that people are, of course, entitled to express even if many of their claims are untrue (I’ll come back to this point with some FACTS for Nycsicko a little later). Finally, it seems that responding to these posts generally results in absolutely no real useful discussions and the threads degenerate into discourse reminiscent of something written by Trey Parker and Matt Stone. However, because I know we have soooo many South Park/ Team America fans out there I will forge on and jump on board as this thread goes down in a blaze of grade school-esque insults and penis references.

Let me start with a couple of observations about this particular thread. It all started, as they all do, with a simple question about pathology residency programs in New York City. Straight forward enough. In the spirit of not completely highjacking this thread I’ll give you my OPINION about that general question before I get to my main point. I agree with the overall gist of LADoc’s statement about NYC programs as a group (this of course includes Cornell), “I WOULDNT PUT ANY [NYC] PROGRAM IN THE CATEGORY OF UCSF, STANFORD, BWH, HOPKINS, WASHU, PENN, EMORY, UVA, MICH OR EVEN UW-SEATTLE POST-ASSASSINATION”. Now I don’t have first hand knowledge of all of the programs LADoc listed but I want to be clear that I realize that Cornell, as good of a program as I know it is, is not among the giants in pathology if one is talking about all the training programs in the U.S. Cornell, is however, among the strongest programs in the NYC area. This, I think, is all that CornellDerm was trying to say with his comment, “I STRONGLY RECOMMEND CORNELL IF YOU ARE SURE YOU WANT TO BE IN NYC. THE ONLY OTHER PROGRAM THAT IS ABOUT ON PAR WITH US IN MY OPINION IS COLUMBIA (OUR SISTER HOSPITAL). THE MAJOR ADVANTAGE OF CORNELL IS THE HOUSING AND LOCATION.”

Now, I actually think it’s pointless to try and rank programs simply because, as has been posted ad nauseam in numerous threads, it’s too subjective. In fact, in one of the rare moments when I was moved to post previously on this board I made this exact statement, see that post on this thread from a few years back...http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=79284

If I were to go through the silly exercise of ranking the programs in the NYC area I can definitely say I disagree with some parts of Nycsicko’s ranking, “SERIOUSLY CORNELL IS FAR BELOW COLUMBIA, SINAI, AND NYU AND DOWNSTATE AND MORE EQUAL TO MONTIFIORE AND LENOX HILL BUT STILL BETTER THAN ST. VINCENT”. The parts I disagree with are that Cornell is below Columbia and better than St. Vincent’s. The basis of my disagreement is that I think most reasonable people agree that ranking programs is useful for individuals but that one persons list may differ DRAMATICALLY from another persons list based on a myriad of highly personalized factors (ultimate career goals, geography, “the vibe” of the program, family/spouse/ friends, etc, etc.). That is not to say that there are not objective criteria that can be used to rank programs and that’s why certain programs (MGH, Stanford, Brigham, JHU, Michigan, UCSF, and others) always seem to be somewhere on almost everyone’s top 10 pathology programs list.

So, how would I “rank” the NYC pathology programs that Nycsicko mentioned in the quote above? Well, I think the most important (albeit subjective) evidence I could use in such a ranking would be to evaluate all the people that I have worked with in various capacities (i.e. rotating residents, co-fellows, attendings who train(ed) at these various NYC institutions). If I did that, then I can honestly say that all the programs listed in the above quote seem to produce their fair share of hard-working, well-trained diagnostic pathologists. That being said I guess I would then have to… well sorta cop-out and say that all of above mentioned programs (Columbia, Cornell, Mount Siani, NYU, MontEfiore, Lenox Hill, Downstate, and St.Vincent’s) are essentially equivalent in regards to their ability to train good pathologists. I would also add St. Luke’s- Roosevelt to my list as I have met some excellent diagnosticians who trained there. Ultimately, I am of the opinion that if you’re an intelligent, motivated person that any of the above programs would be a fine choice if you want/ need to be in NYC. As Yaah has frequently said, “YOU MAKE YOUR OWN PRESTIGE”.

In reading Nycsicko’s posts I also noticed that he/she is obsessed with FACTS and I also picked up on the backhanded slam on Lenox Hill, Montefiore, and St. Vincent’s. After all, Nycsicko refers to Cornell as “CornHell” and then proceeds to say two of these institutions are equivalent to it and the other is actually worse. Well, here are some FACTS in the form of examples of excellent, well-known pathologists I have worked with that trained (did their residencies) at just one of these institutions-- Lenox Hill: Cristina Antonescu- Soft Tissue Att., MSKCC; Scott Ely- Hempath Att., Cornell; Volkan Adsay, Director of Surg Path, Emory. I could go on with examples from the other institution mentioned above but I think I made my point. Looking at the quality of the graduates from a program is a valid way of comparing programs given that they are the “final product” of a given training system. So, to address the OP (Sean2tall) any of the programs listed above would be “reasonable” options given the criteria you mention as important to you.

In reviewing this thread I also noticed that a few of the poster’s seemed confused as to Nycsicko’s home institution. I am not sure why she/he would hide this bit of information Actually, I am not sure he/she is hiding or if she/he simply neglected to mention it. It turns out that not everything Nycsicko writes is completely FACTually inaccurate as it is clear to me that she/he is at Columbia based on this statement in his/her first post of the thread, “ONE CYTOLOGIST IS COMING BACK…” which is true of a Cornell cytopathologist who is moving to Columbia. This particular attending did her residency at Cornell, a surg path fellowship at Columbia and a cytology fellowship at Penn. She then was an attending at Columbia for a year before coming to Cornell and she’s now going BACK to Columbia. In fact, I heard—though I am not sure if it’s true—that she’s going to be the Director of Cytolopathology at Columbia. Is this true Nycsicko? Are you sure you want someone who trained at your “community program” to direct your cytopathology division? In all seriousness though, this attending is an excellent cytopathologist. I have learned A TON from her and losing her is a loss for Cornell but a big PROMOTION for her…. maybe the promotion is why she left….. I guess the flames, pitchforks, and Saddam Hussein might have had something to do with it, it is “CornHell” after all?

All right, I’ll get to my main points. First off Nycsicko, you would be wise to listen to some of the more seasoned posters, like Sinality, Yaah, Matte, etc. in regards to what you decide to post on this site. In your brief studentdoctor career, in fact in a single thread, you have managed to insult almost every single program (and by association you have insulted the people who train(ed) at those programs) in the very city in which you reside. While you may be personally anonymous you are representing your program (Columbia) a great institution with a strong history in the development of surgical pathology as a field in this country. Frankly, you should be embarrassed. As a graduate of a NYC pathology program I definitely don’t want you as my spoke person. You are perpetuating the negative stereotypes that have plagued academic medicine in the Northeast and NYC via your thoughtless and ignorant comments (don’t worry Nycsicko the FACTS about Cornell are comin’). I am friends with several Columbia graduates, attendings, fellows and residents and I can assure everyone out there that this person DOES NOT represent the maturity level or character of the typical Columbia trainee or graduate.

The primary reason I am posting this very, very long diatribe is that I feel a few of the completely and utterly false statements made by Nycsicko in this thread need to be addressed. Here are the UNTRUE quotes and the real FACTS.

1. “Dr. Yantiss is leaving for private practice.”
I don’t know where you got this but it is not true. A junior GI attending did leave a while back for private practice (and a HUGE raise) but Dr. Yantiss is not going anywhere. The GI fellowship at Cornell is combined with the GI fellowship at MSKCC (6 months at each institution) so I see Dr. Yantiss on occasion at conferences and what not and there isn’t even a hint of a suggestion of a rumor that she is leaving (other than the baseless rumor you posted above).

2. “…NO renal pathologist”.
There are two medical renal pathologists at Cornell (Dr. Seshan, Dr. Ahktar). It is true that Dr. Seshan signs out pretty much all of the cases, Dr. Akhtar occasionally covers the service. Both are great teachers, extremely well-read and genuinely nice people.

3. “…NO gu pathologist.”
Yaah got this one right. Mark Rubin is the primary GU pathologist at Cornell. Additionally, Dr. Akhtar and Dr. Tu (who did her residency and fellowship at Columbia…does that make her acceptable Nycsicko?) are also GU pathologists.

4. “NO head and neck pathologist.”
There is a head and neck pathologist at Cornell (her name is Dr. Sconomiglio). Someone posted a comment earlier about the very true phenomenon that some very famous pathologist are horrible teachers/ diagnosticians and some of the best teachers/ diagnosticians are people who’s names you may have never heard. Dr. Sconomiglio fits into the latter category. Plus, she’s young so I could see her becoming a big player in head and neck (especially thyroid) in the not too distant future.

5. “…only one neuropatholgist who only does autopsy brains because all the tumors are sent to Columbia.”
It is true that Cornell only has one neuropathologist but all tumors are sent to Columbia?!!? They must have some really good crack up there in Washington Heights either that or things have drastically changed at Cornell in the four months since I left. Generally, when Dr. Lavi (he does sign out tumors) is out of town, most of the cases are signed out by any number of the other attendings at Cornell, because…big shock here… many of the attendings at Cornell can actually sign out cases in areas that aren’t necessarily their subspecialty interest. If the cases are unusual or difficult they are usually taken to the neuropathologists at MSKCC, or NYU, not Columbia.

Now in regards to the relationship between Cornell and MSKCC I am bit confused by nycsicko’s comments. Initially, he/she made it sound like it was a bad thing as in statements like…”ASK QUESTIONS LIKE, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A TOUGH CASE AND THERE IS NO IN HOUSE SPECIALIST?” This statement implies that not having an expert in the physical building is a tremendously horrendous thing. Well, in general these difficult cases are taken to MSKCC which is right across the street from Cornell (it’s actually connected via tunnels you don’t even have to go outside)…is this a bad thing? Given that some of the very large institutions in this country, like MD Anderson, are as big as small cities having to only walk across the street to show an expert a case ain’t that bad. The consensus on this board seems to be that MSKCC is a pretty solid institution. Heck, even you nycsicko said, “OF COURSE MSKCC IS A POWERHOUSE....DUH...”.

MSKCC and Cornell are affiliated with each other in many ways (most of the residency programs at Cornell, including pathology, have electives at MSKCC). From an administrative and physical point of view the pathology departments are completely separate. However, the derm fellowship and the GI fellowship are combined MSKCC/Cornell programs. Additionally, we have combined grand rounds at which Cornell residents present. This is a great format for opening the doors for the competitive combined and subspecialty fellowships at MSKCC. Finally, LADoc made a comment that as far as he knew MSKCC doesn’t have path residents. This is true, however, as a third year resident I got to spend three months at MSKCC as an acting fellow (i.e. grossing, actual responsibility for cases, presenting at tumor boards, etc.). This elective option was, in fact, one of the major reasons I chose to go to Cornell in the first place. The reality is that—as it pertains to resident training, teaching, and research –the lines between MSKCC and Cornell are blurred. This FACT pretty much invalidates (at least in a real world, day-to-day way) the claim that Cornell has no bone and soft tissue pathologist(s) (Dr. Edgar, Dr. Antonescu--MSKCC) and no lung pathologist (Dr. Travis, Dr. Klimstra—yes he signs out thoracic too, Dr. Moreria, Dr. Zakowski…all MSKCC).

Anyway, I am not quite sure where the animosity that Nycsicko appears to have for his/her fellow-NYC programs comes from and honestly it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to address the FACTS which Nycsicko refers to in her/his posts as his/her version of the FACTS reminded me of one my favorite quotes from a great American…”It’s been widely reported and that makes it fact-esque.”- Stephen Colbert.

 

[nycsicko]

1. "Dr. Yantiss is leaving for private practice."


2. "…NO renal pathologist".


3. "…NO gu pathologist."


4. "NO head and neck pathologist."


5. "…only one neuropatholgist who only does autopsy brains because all the tumors are sent to Columbia."



MSKCC and Cornell are affiliated with each other in many ways (most of the residency programs at Cornell, including pathology, have electives at MSKCC).

that was AWESOME. Its good to protect the homeland. I would too
unfortunately for you I know people at both Cornell and MSKCC. I think the biggest point is that MSKCC is NOT CORNELL AND CORNELL IS NOT MSKCC and doing a Cornell residency is not the same and doing one at Cornell/MSKCC so its not really acurate to list MSKCC attendings as your attendings. I suppose Jaun Rosai is a Cornell attending too?!!? That is awesome!

I will freely admit I am not sure about a few things but its my undertstanding (because I was interested in the MSKCC GI fellowship at one point) that the Cornell and Sloan Kettering GI fellowships were never really joined. Its also my understanding that the MSKCC rotations are no longer available but that comes HEAVILY in the catagory of I just think i hear that and applicants should ask for themselves because that would be a big bonus.

I stand corrected 1) I was told the GI attending was leaving and I assumed it was Yantiss, I did not realize there was more than one. Turns out its another one who of course ONLY left for money (I would too) 2) Got some bad info in the renal pathologist, I looked it up and as the poster said they do have one. Time for a party 3) ok, only MOST of the brain tumor patients are sent to Columbia or MSKCC.

Does Dr. Rubin sign out GU? I was told that he did not. Maybe i was wrong. I happen to know the other two people you mentioned and also happen to know they are not fellowship trained GU pathologist and YES you can still be a rockin' GU pathologist (or any kind of specialist) and not have done a fellowship but most people would say it makes a difference. I happen to know Dr. Tu quite well and she is awesome but she is a GYN fellowship at Columbia NOT a GU fellowship but she rocks and does have an interest in GU (she just had a molecular GU paper in Modern Path). I have not met or heard Dr. Scognamiglio, she must be new. Where did she train? There is still no lung, liver, heart, bone, soft tissue, pediatric, lung, or head and neck patholgist there. Let's face it these are complicated and fundamental areas of pathology and you would benefit from training someplace where you could find these things. Really Cornell, no LUNG path??? LIVER??? HELLOOOO? Shame! Again applicants, the best thing to do if you are interested is apply, interview, and ask for yourself!!! By the new academic year things could be totally different. That's the way things go. I would add that I think Cornell has the stongest hemepath in NYC followed by Einstein and Columbia. They also have strong GYN/BREAST service and ok cytology. But maybe i got that wrong too.

I'm sorry you are so hurt by these things but I think that applicants should know that in most areas Cornell is really just very average and i don't think you should pretend that the MSKCC attendings are your attendings because they clearly are not. MSKCC HAS NO RESIDENTS. ALL FELLOWS!!! Look it up! Bringing cases to MSKCC when your in house attendings can't handle it doesn't count. Sorry (sad face). And I don't care what you say, having one neuropathologist is not standard for a top program. Nooo Dr. Rosenblum doesn't count but NICE TRY CORNELL!!! I have to thank you for once again bringing up Cornell housing. You all CRACK ME UP.
I never said I was at Columbia and I have had good things to say about many of the NYC programs (including Cornell).

LASTLY, are you telling us that Cornell is NOT a better training program than Lenox Hill or St. Vincent's?????????? Really? Thank Jesus for housing!

 

[nycsicko]

ok sorry if I am overposting but my friend was just reading the Cornell post and pointed out something I just HAVE TO LAUGH at. Do you Cornell, think that having tunnels connecting you to another building makes you the same place??? OHHHH OK. I get it. OF COURSE Cornell rocks! It has tunnels!!!! I take back anything bad I might have said. Tunnels! Mole people take note! Cornell is for you.

 

[DW]

I'm glad to see the petty Cornell-Columbia rivalry doesn't just stop with medical school, but extends into the postgraduate medical education realm.

Peace,
DW
Graduate of "The worst medical school on the planet according to everyone at Columbia", 2007

 

[LADoc00]

this is shaping up to be the mother of all pathology SDN threads
wow, just read that uber post by the Cornell guy above, impressed. Im getting a serious "Timmah vs. Jimmy" fight feeling here. Awesome, keep it coming.

 

[sinaility]

that was AWESOME. Its good to protect the homeland. I would too
unfortunately for you I know people at both Cornell and MSKCC. I think the biggest point is that MSKCC is NOT CORNELL AND CORNELL IS NOT MSKCC and doing a Cornell residency is not the same and doing one at Cornell/MSKCC so its not really acurate to list MSKCC attendings as your attendings. I suppose Jaun Rosai is a Cornell attending too?!!? That is awesome!

I will freely admit I am not sure about a few things but its my undertstanding (because I was interested in the MSKCC GI fellowship at one point) that the Cornell and Sloan Kettering GI fellowships were never really joined. Its also my understanding that the MSKCC rotations are no longer available but that comes HEAVILY in the catagory of I just think i hear that and applicants should ask for themselves because that would be a big bonus.

I stand corrected 1) I was told the GI attending was leaving and I assumed it was Yantiss, I did not realize there was more than one. Turns out its another one who of course ONLY left for money (I would too) 2) Got some bad info in the renal pathologist, I looked it up and as the poster said they do have one. Time for a party 3) ok, only MOST of the brain tumor patients are sent to Columbia or MSKCC.

Does Dr. Rubin sign out GU? I was told that he did not. Maybe i was wrong. I happen to know the other two people you mentioned and also happen to know they are not fellowship trained GU pathologist and YES you can still be a rockin' GU pathologist (or any kind of specialist) and not have done a fellowship but most people would say it makes a difference. I happen to know Dr. Tu quite well and she is awesome but she is a GYN fellowship at Columbia NOT a GU fellowship but she rocks and does have an interest in GU (she just had a molecular GU paper in Modern Path). I have not met or heard Dr. Scognamiglio, she must be new. Where did she train? There is still no lung, liver, heart, bone, soft tissue, pediatric, lung, or head and neck patholgist there. Let's face it these are complicated and fundamental areas of pathology and you would benefit from training someplace where you could find these things. Really Cornell, no LUNG path??? LIVER??? HELLOOOO? Shame! Again applicants, the best thing to do if you are interested is apply, interview, and ask for yourself!!! By the new academic year things could be totally different. That's the way things go. I would add that I think Cornell has the stongest hemepath in NYC followed by Einstein and Columbia. They also have strong GYN/BREAST service and ok cytology. But maybe i got that wrong too.

I'm sorry you are so hurt by these things but I think that applicants should know that in most areas Cornell is really just very average and i don't think you should pretend that the MSKCC attendings are your attendings because they clearly are not. MSKCC HAS NO RESIDENTS. ALL FELLOWS!!! Look it up! Bringing cases to MSKCC when your in house attendings can't handle it doesn't count. Sorry (sad face). And I don't care what you say, having one neuropathologist is not standard for a top program. Nooo Dr. Rosenblum doesn't count but NICE TRY CORNELL!!! I have to thank you for once again bringing up Cornell housing. You all CRACK ME UP. How's Magro working out for you? She stab anyone yet?

I never said I was at Columbia and I have had good things to say about many of the NYC programs (including Cornell).

LASTLY, are you telling us that Cornell is NOT a better training program than Lenox Hill or St. Vincent's?????????? Really? Thank Jesus for housing!

Dear Yaah,
I guess people really don't take any advice on this forum. They just like to hear themselves talk. I think this THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED, since there are too many posts slandering individual attendings by name. It just isn't professional. It's rude, petty, dangerous, and very disgusting. Just because people go into academics doesn't mean they aren't human beings worthy of respect and dignity. Would you want your real name being discussed in an open internet forum by faceless people? I really hope not! I'm very disappointed in NYCsicko. Whatever program this person is from, I'd be terrified to be his/her co-resident. His/her posts come off as being written by a very threatened individual, willing to trash anyone by name to make themselves feel more comfortable in their own skin. Very disturbing!!!! Like I said before, "this gossip only happens because of jealousy combined with poor social skills".

 

[Brougham]

Thanks sinilaity, LaDoc, and DW, I'll take it from here. First of all you should be proud of the fact your at Columbia. It's a great institution. If I were there I would be proud too...maybe not arragont like you but definitely proud.

I would first like to ask Yaah to not close this thread just yet. Unless you (Yaah) felt my last few posts were out of line. In that case go ahead and shut it down. If not, I would then like to ask everyone out there (other than Nycsiko) to not post anything more in this thread.

I will post again in this thread in 24 hours.

 

[nycsicko]

Dear Yaah,
I guess people really don't take any advice on this forum. They just like to hear themselves talk. I think this THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED, since there are too many posts slandering individual attendings by name. It just isn't professional. It's rude, petty, dangerous, and very disgusting. Just because people go into academics doesn't mean they aren't human beings worthy of respect and dignity. Would you want your real name being discussed in an open internet forum by faceless people? I really hope not! I'm very disappointed in NYCsicko. Whatever program this person is from, I'd be terrified to be his/her co-resident. His/her posts come off as being written by a very threatened individual, willing to trash anyone by name to make themselves feel more comfortable in their own skin. Very disturbing!!!! Like I said before, "this gossip only happens because of jealousy combined with poor social skills".

I don't know what you all are talking about. My point are and always have been

1) Cornell is average with delusions of being 'the best' and for reasons I think i have sufficently mentioned. It simply can not be the best. All of this was started when Yaah or someone said that cornell was the most prestigeous program in NYC. Again the facts prove otherwise.

2) LOOK FOR YOURSELF
3) LOOK FOR YOURSELF
4) LOOK FOR YOURSELF
5) LOOK FOR YOURSELF

You need help if you think I am committing slander. Slander by definition is not true. You also need to learn what an opinion is.

If I said P Rosen sticks pickles up his bubby during sign out, this would be SLANDER

If I say Cornell doesn't have a cardiovascular pathologist, this would be a FACT.

If I say Cornell is an average training program, this would be my opinion (i think at least an informed opinion)

see-slander-fact-slander-fact different!

I am sad for the future of pathology if you all represent how we think

I totally agree this BS should be SHUT DOWN! but any applicants should learn a lesson. People will viciously defend themselves despite all facts to the contrary so be weary of what residents tell you at Cornell or Columbia or NYU or ULCA or Utah orrrr

best of luck.

GO CORNELL HOUSING!

 

[nycsicko]

I hear Mt Sinai is the greatest program in the world



In my book, Cornell has probably become the "most prestigious" NYC program.

see Yaah started it not me

 

[LADoc00]

Dear Yaah,
I guess people really don't take any advice on this forum. They just like to hear themselves talk. I think this THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED, since there are too many posts slandering individual attendings by name. It just isn't professional. It's rude, petty, dangerous, and very disgusting. Just because people go into academics doesn't mean they aren't human beings worthy of respect and dignity. Would you want your real name being discussed in an open internet forum by faceless people? I really hope not! I'm very disappointed in NYCsicko. Whatever program this person is from, I'd be terrified to be his/her co-resident. His/her posts come off as being written by a very threatened individual, willing to trash anyone by name to make themselves feel more comfortable in their own skin. Very disturbing!!!! Like I said before, "this gossip only happens because of jealousy combined with poor social skills".

Let it continue I say. Although this thread has limited intellectual value now, it is highly entertaining. Would love to see actual NYC attendings come out and start dueling here.

 

[LADoc00]

I don't know what you all are talking about. My point are and always have been

1) Cornell is average with delusions of being 'the best' and for reasons I think i have sufficently mentioned. It simply can not be the best. All of this was started when Yaah or someone said that cornell was the most prestigeous program in NYC. Again the facts prove otherwise.

2) LOOK FOR YOURSELF
3) LOOK FOR YOURSELF
4) LOOK FOR YOURSELF
5) LOOK FOR YOURSELF

You need help if you think I am committing slander. Slander by definition is not true. You also need to learn what an opinion is.

If I said P Rosen sticks pickles up his bubby during sign out, this would be SLANDER

If I say Cornell doesn't have a cardiovascular pathologist, this would be a FACT.

If I say Cornell is an average training program, this would be my opinion (i think at least an informed opinion)

see-slander-fact-slander-fact different!

I am sad for the future of pathology if you all represent how we think

I totally agree this BS should be SHUT DOWN! but any applicants should learn a lesson. People will viciously defend themselves despite all facts to the contrary so be weary of what residents tell you at Cornell or Columbia or NYU or ULCA or Utah orrrr

best of luck.

GO CORNELL HOUSING!

LOL......Seriously tho Rosen is a cool guy, never seen a pickle in his hand ever.

 

[nycsicko]

Let it continue I say. Although this thread has limited intellectual value now, it is highly entertaining. Would love to see actual NYC attendings come out and start dueling here.

Won't happen. Cornell attendings can't read or write Release the hounds!

 

[desmangt]

Yeah I'm still here. Are you still at OSU? And yes, I still passionately love new york. Lastly, I really hope NYCsicko doesn't know me or work with me. If so, I better sleep with one eye open. Ha Ha!! I too think this thread has fallen into bad taste. Way too many names mentioned!!! But I'm staying out of the firing range.

 

[yaah]

I'm not going to close the thread. There isn't really any real "slander" about particular attendings. It's more just poor attempts at jokes which I would recommend not attempting. The stupid "pickle" comment, intended to be a joke but not an amusing one at all, notwithstanding, it's more just propagating unsubstantiated rumors, which is inadvisable but not slander. I would hope people would not come on to propagate unsubstantiated rumors.

nycsicko, I would ask you to please remove the comments from your threads which indirectly or directly attack specific names. I do not mean the discussions of which attending is at which hospital, etc, that's not a problem. Consider this a warning (to you and to others who are tempted to respond in kind) - personal attacks, even those aimed at people NOT on this forum, will not be tolerated.

 

[nycsicko]

wow
honestly, if you don't want to hear from me just kick me off. Its an extra 10 minutes a day I get back in my life.

You are all very odd. I haven't named a single person that was not 1st named by someone else and when I used names it was positive (see above Dr. Tu comment) or neutral. I will admit i went too far with the 'dermatopathologist' comments but the issues with her are common knowledge. Yes I made a mistake about which GI attending and didn't see that Cornell has a renal pathologist. I'm still waiting to hear what else I lied about. And if I made my points sarcastically get over it.

The Dr. Rosen comment was obviously intended to be rediculous. If you are offened that the words pickle and Rosen appeared in the same sentence you a a very sensitive creature and thats great but the statement can not be interpreted as an insult as it was given in demonstration of SLANDER and therefore a lie. I have previously stated that Dr. Rosen is a major asset to the Cornell program and of course this continues to be true.

I don't think you should be blocking conversations about specific people if it is done in a way that is relevent to the quality of the training program.

I will only add that my fellow residents are HAPPY to have me there. I'm not the next P. Rosen, D Knowles, or R Yantiss, but I work hard and am always there to help my freinds when they need it. Haven't stabbed a single back yet.

 

[yaah]

Nycsicko - thank you for your comments and clarification, but bear in mind that sarcasm and jokes are not always taken by some readers as such. And whether this is "their problem" or not is sometimes irrelevant. Joking about individuals who are not here to defend themselves or who haven't provoked it is often inappropriate - think about if you saw your name thrown around like that. I agree that your comments were clearly not serious, but just because they weren't serious or realistic doesn't mean they aren't harmful.

I advise you not to make this an issue that is "everyone else's fault." I think there are plenty of people here who can take a joke and who appreciate humor, but not everyone's definition of humor is the same, and in a professional forum certain things are less appropriate than they would be in other arenas. It's not that people don't want to hear from you, it's that they want comments to be more appropriately directed and less inflammatory (and I say this to everyone reading this). I encourage you to keep posting and participate when you have things to say.

We will not block comments about specific people if it is relevant, but a lot of what was posted was not relevant. I think you know the difference.

 

[Brougham]

http://www.planearium2.de/bilder/wallpaper-char-timmy-1024.jpg


Hey look everybody it's Timmy, everyone's favorite physically challenged Cornell pathology alum who is eveidently delusion for thinking "CornHell" is a good program.

TTTTTTIIIIIMMMMMMMMAAAAAHHHHHHH……..grrrabagrrrabagrrraba….TTTTTTIIIIIIMMMMAAAAHHHHHHHHH.
*Enter brougham* (timmy's alter ego)…."be quite Timmy I am trying to have an adult conversation here".

…..timmmeh

That's much better Timmy….thank you. I think I have figured out the true identity of Nycsicko. He's not in medicine at all…you see, everytime I post I feel like I have entered the "No spin zone" and we are in New York after all, home of Foxnews. Therefore, I must apologize to Nycsicko for not recognizing him earlier (because he's famous). It's Papa Bear (Bill O'Reilly)…[brougham and timmy bow to show respect]. He must be mad because he thinks I bloviate and he wants me to keep my comments pithy. Don't worry Papa Bear I promise I won't opine any longer…

TTTTTIIIIMMMMMAAAAHHHHH…grrrabagrraba….timmeh?!?

What's that Timmy?

Grrrabagrraba….timmmmmeeehhh…

Oh your right Timmy, how could I have been so stupid! Timmy just pointed out to me that he can't be Papa Bear, his vocabulary isn't good enough.

Then he must be that other uber famous Foxnews superstar from Fox and Friends…Brown Haired guy that's not Steve Doocy. He only communicates with a series of grunts and high fives.

TIMMY!!!…grrrabrraba…

Ooopppsss, my apologies for the slander, BLACK haired guy that's not Steve Doocy. Thanks again Timmy. You have once again proven yourself the smarter of the two of us. Well, it's surely clear, who ever he is, he certainly has a firm grasp on the concept of "truthiness". Now, on with the show…


I posted some comments earlier in this thread (see my very, very long diatribe above) in response to what I though was unproductive, inaccurate, unprofessional posts about the pathology program at Cornell. The perpetrator was Nysicko who after reading my post decided to persist in her/his attacks (rather than promoting and saying positive things about his own program, he/she was given the opportunity to comment and CHOSE to attack).

Now I found this rather disappointing. One of the goal of my post was to try and smooth the relationship between the programs in NYC (especially between the residents of these programs, most of whom are rather reasonable people in my experience) as there seems to be a lot of animosity flying around. To that end, I seemed to have failed…miserably (okay maybe Nycsicko deserves SOME credit for this failure). The roots of this animosity have never been completely clear to me.

Anyway, the main point of my post—or the "theme" of my post was basically that there are good people at almost every single program in the country and it simply is unprofessional to attack programs with insulting overtones. Furthermore, an excellent program will NOT make up for hard work and lot's of self study. Again to quote Yaah, "You make your own prestige".

I, by absolutely no means, think Cornell (where I did my residency) is perfect. I would be lying if I said that there where not days during my residency when I absolutely hated my job, the place I worked and some of the politics I experienced during my training. I definitely had my share of bad days. However, in talking to people from other pathology programs (this includes programs around the country , not just in NYC) I think most people have at least some "rough patches" during residency. This is, I think, normal. I would also—like Nycsicko suggested above--be very, very wary of anyone or any program that doesn't acknowledge its shortcomings.

At the end of the day, I am glad I did my residency at Cornell and stand by all of the statements I have made in this thread. There are some wonderful people there (both professional and personally) and the quality and overall character of the residents is top notch. I recommend the program, especially if you want/ need to be in NYC.

One more tidbit. I don't think anyone should be afraid to be honest about their interview experiences regarding specific programs…though I understand why people might be concerned that a bad comment may come back to bite them. That's why people like Nycsicko try an remain anonymous and deny there own clear affiliation to a program that they seem so obviously, and almost abnormally, infatuated with….because on some level this person realizes they are spewing garbage. I think the key is to be diplomatic with your posts.

When you post try to think about what you would say if you were not anonymous…I think this is the best way to reign in one's comments as people say VASTLY different things when they have to say it to someone's face or in a non-anonymous format. Try not to take pot-shots or be too sarcastic/ condescending with your posts. As an ex-Cornell resident, I can take critiques of my program when they are done in a professional way. My belief that Cornell is a strong program (I never said it was "the best" Nycsicko, did you even read my post?!?!) will not waiver even in the face of such passionate, albeit inaccurate, post to the contrary such as some of those above. That doesn't mean I won't disagree with you if you say something about Cornell that is either subjective or that I think is not correct, however. I am also sure that there ARE some people at some programs that will be vindictive (so be careful). I think Yaah's idea (see the thread on the topic) of posting through him is an excellent idea if you are at all concerned about possible repercussions stemming from program reviews.

Finally, I would like to thank Nycsicko on behalf of "CornHell" as he has provided us with a great recruitment slogan for this year…"come to cornHell, our residents are absolutely nothing like Nycsicko………………and we have housing".

That's all I have to say. Have a great Thanksgiving!

Love,
TTTTTTTIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!! and Gobbles


http://www.macscreensavers.com/images/screen_shots/timmy_shot.gif

 

[LADoc00]

I love that Gobbles episode and I often repeat lines from it at staff meetings.

Good read above.

I will say Cornell has somewhat of a special place in my heart because they do put the single best Hemepath conference there is on every year in Florida. If you are a hemepath junkie, it is a must attend honestly. At least 1 time.

 

[Thaitanium]

I agree saying MSKCC is second tier is a huge joke. Those guys get consults not only from all over the states, but from all over the world.
Regarding the FMG issue, some of the best pathologists are FMGs e.g. Fletcher, Rosai , Unni, Huvos etc. Anyone who belittles there contribution to pathology is not just looking at facts.
FMG or AMG, excellence is an individual not geographic thing.
In the end, good teachers and a good institution, help a lot. But the ultimate result depends on the individual.
If you are good at what you do and more importantly enjoy what you do, you will be recognized and rewarded.
I have trained with people who came from residency programs all over the states. They included people from the top programs and people from completely unrecognized programs. I learnt one thing from my experience, the only difference between exceptional pathologists and mediocre ones was intelligence and interest. The best ones simply loved what they did.
Being a good or even great pathologist is totally upto you. And trust me , mature people recognize excellence irrespective of nationality or institutional pedigree.
Cornell, Columbia etc. are all excellent institutions. It totally depends on your effort and what you want to get out of these institutions. As long as you see a lot and keep on increasing your knowledge base, you will be a success.

Great post!