Study on yelling

[Fan_of_Meehl]

But it's a pretty effective way to get short term behavior change, thus it's popularity. It's a tool of the shortsighted, with many harmful and lasting side-effects, as this study clearly shows.

And, often, yelling is 'intended' as a 'punishment' (or cathartic release by the yeller) that actually *functions* as a reinforcer of the behavior upon which it is made contingent.

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[ClinicalABA]

And, often, yelling is 'intended' as a 'punishment' (or cathartic release by the yeller) that actually *functions* as a reinforcer of the behavior upon which it is made contingent.

Yep- i've worked with many a child for whom any attention was better than the typical "no attention" that they got.

 

[calimich]

And, often, yelling is 'intended' as a 'punishment' (or cathartic release by the yeller) that actually *functions* as a reinforcer of the behavior upon which it is made contingent.

Yep- i've worked with many a child for whom any attention was better than the typical "no attention" that they got.

sad but true

Parenting is by far the hardest thing I've ever done.

 

[ClinicalABA]

sad but true

Parenting is by far the hardest thing I've ever done.

It may be my memory, but we have a new puppy and I recall the infant children being a little less work!

 

[Sanman]

sad but true

Parenting is by far the hardest thing I've ever done.

Definitely. I'm aware this thread is on childhood verbal abuse but are there any studies on the emotional impact of having an infant/toddler that smacks you across the face, steals your glasses, and then laughs about it? Asking for a friend....

 

[calimich]

Definitely. I'm aware this thread is on childhood verbal abuse but are there any studies on the emotional impact of having an infant/toddler that smacks you across the face, steals your glasses, and then laughs about it? Asking for a friend....

or any about navigating triangulation after 2nd born kicks grandma in the face at the park and she retorts with 'I'm never bringing you to the park again'? also asking for a friend

 

[ClinicalABA]

or any about navigating triangulation after 2nd born kicks grandma in the face at the park and she retorts with 'I'm never bringing you to the park again'? also asking for a friend

Somewhat depends on age of "2nd born"- if they are a teenager or older, grandma needs to up her game a little bit.

 

[Sanman]

or any about navigating triangulation after 2nd born kicks grandma in the face at the park and she retorts with 'I'm never bringing you to the park again'? also asking for a friend

Those second born kids...

 

[futureapppsy2]

Punishment is not a great way to get long term behavior change. Overreliance on threatening, frightening, and intimidating methods - without compensating with care, empathy, and love (without being too sappy) - is likely to be more harmful than helpful., especially to children who are relatively powerless.

Plus, punishment doesn't actually teach what TO do, just what NOT to do. It's why other methods, like differential reinforcement, are more effective for behavior change.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Plus, punishment doesn't actually teach what TO do, just what NOT to do. It's why other methods, like differential reinforcement, are more effective for behavior change.

Definitely, but I do see an over-reliance on DRO (Differential Reinforcement of Other behaviors), which can be non- constructive and doesn't pass the "Dead Man's Test" (i.e, if the client should die during the procedure, would they still meet criteria for earning the reinforcer). A bit morbid, but a very useful heuristic. I refer to lazy behavior analysts who ALWAYS suggest a DRO as "DRObots." Don't be a DRObot!

A combination of (mostly) good antecedent (discrimination stimuli and- maybe more importantly- motivating operations) based interventions, combined with constructive differential reinforcement (e.g., DRA/DRI) is the way to go. You can augment with infrequent, well-timed, closely monitored "non biblical" punishment, such as a disapproving look or mildly disapproving statement (because punishing contingencies DO exist in the natural world, and kids gotta get used to them).

 

[futureapppsy2]

Definitely, but I do see an over-reliance on DRO (Differential Reinforcement of Other behaviors), which can be non- constructive and doesn't pass the "Dead Man's Test" (i.e, if the client should die during the procedure, would they still meet criteria for earning the reinforcer). A bit morbid, but a very useful heuristic. I refer to lazy behavior analysts who ALWAYS suggest a DRO as "DRObots." Don't be a DRObot!

A combination of (mostly) good antecedent (discrimination stimuli and- maybe more importantly- motivating operations) based interventions, combined with constructive differential reinforcement (e.g., DRA/DRI) is the way to go. You can augment with infrequent, well-timed, closely monitored "non biblical" punishment, such as a disapproving look or mildly disapproving statement (because punishing contingencies DO exist in the natural world, and kids gotta get used to them).

Yep, I always tell my students that DRO usually isn't practical clinically when go over differential reinforcement and that other types of DR are usually better choices.

 

[cara susanna]

Definitely, but I do see an over-reliance on DRO (Differential Reinforcement of Other behaviors), which can be non- constructive and doesn't pass the "Dead Man's Test" (i.e, if the client should die during the procedure, would they still meet criteria for earning the reinforcer). A bit morbid, but a very useful heuristic. I refer to lazy behavior analysts who ALWAYS suggest a DRO as "DRObots." Don't be a DRObot!

A combination of (mostly) good antecedent (discrimination stimuli and- maybe more importantly- motivating operations) based interventions, combined with constructive differential reinforcement (e.g., DRA/DRI) is the way to go. You can augment with infrequent, well-timed, closely monitored "non biblical" punishment, such as a disapproving look or mildly disapproving statement (because punishing contingencies DO exist in the natural world, and kids gotta get used to them).

Is this also true for animals? If so, what would you suggest?

 

[tr]

Yep, I always tell my students that DRO usually isn't practical clinically when go over differential reinforcement and that other types of DR are usually better choices.

What are the other options? I'm not keeping up with the acronyms here.
DRI is DR of an Incompatible behavior?
What's DRA? Acceptable alternative?

 

[ClinicalABA]

What are the other options? I'm not keeping up with the acronyms here.
DRI is DR of an Incompatible behavior?

Yep

What's DRA? Acceptable alternative?

specific Alternative(s), typically (and desirably) functionally equivalent to the problematic behavior you're trying to decrease.

Those are the most common, but you can also reinforce low (DRL) or diminishing (DRD) rates of the problematic behavior, as well as specific rates (or above minimum rates) of an alternate or incompatible behavior (DRH, with the H generally standing for High). There are also variations/parameters on when reinforcement is available or delivered (e.g. momentary vs. whole-interval DRO; spaced-responding with a DRL). Choosing the correct interval (e.g., based on average baseline inter-response times is also crucial for effective use of any interval-based DR procedure) is also crucial. Additionally, as the DR program is often meant to be implemented by someone other than a behaviorally trained clinician, knowledge of the research regarding social validity, ease of implementation, and treatment fidelity can't be overlooked.

I don't say all this to sound smart, but more to emphasize that that differential reinforcement in a lot more complicated a topic than most non-behaviorally trained clinicians realize. It represents a major portion of the semester in graduate training in ABA. Sure, you can accomplish a lot with just a DRA/I, but knowledge of other concepts and applications is crucial for optimizing treatment effectiveness and efficiency. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people label and entire DR program as ineffective (often as a step to implementing something more aversive) or conclude that a reinforcer is ineffective, when in fact it's just a matter of adjusting the interval to increase/decrease access to reinforcers or switching to a momentary schedule to make the program more likely to be implemented properly.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Is this also true for animals? If so, what would you suggest?

As far a we know, these behavioral procedures are effective with all organisms. You are somewhat limited by species specific repertoires (there's a reason we teach rats to press bars and pigeons to peck keys), and defense responses (look up some of the earlier "anxiety" research related to tonic immobility in chickens!), as well as the abilities of the organism to respond to environmental stimuli within a certain period of time (think plants, where you can change their behavior by controlling access to sunlight, but it's a really slow process). ABA principles are typically derived from EAB studies on non-humans, with recent work including computer work with computer adaptive neural networks. I'm also seeing more stuff being done with those giant cockroaches, which is kinda cool. As an aside- I once worked with a kid who's on a program where the reinforcer was that he got to put one his African Hissing Cockroaches on the top of my bald head!

I am cautious to comment make specific suggestions for animal training because (a) it's not my area; and (b) I just give my puppy attention and treats when she looks at me cute, independent of any specific behaviors she may or may not be engaging in!

 

[smalltownpsych]

Yep

specific Alternative(s), typically (and desirably) functionally equivalent to the problematic behavior you're trying to decrease.

Those are the most common, but you can also reinforce low (DRL) or diminishing (DRD) rates of the problematic behavior, as well as specific rates (or above minimum rates) of an alternate or incompatible behavior (DRH, with the H generally standing for High). There are also variations/parameters on when reinforcement is available or delivered (e.g. momentary vs. whole-interval DRO; spaced-responding with a DRL). Choosing the correct interval (e.g., based on average baseline inter-response times is also crucial for effective use of any interval-based DR procedure) is also crucial. Additionally, as the DR program is often meant to be implemented by someone other than a behaviorally trained clinician, knowledge of the research regarding social validity, ease of implementation, and treatment fidelity can't be overlooked.

I don't say all this to sound smart, but more to emphasize that that differential reinforcement in a lot more complicated a topic than most non-behaviorally trained clinicians realize. It represents a major portion of the semester in graduate training in ABA. Sure, you can accomplish a lot with just a DRA/I, but knowledge of other concepts and applications is crucial for optimizing treatment effectiveness and efficiency. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people label and entire DR program as ineffective (often as a step to implementing something more aversive) or conclude that a reinforcer is ineffective, when in fact it's just a matter of adjusting the interval to increase/decrease access to reinforcers or switching to a momentary schedule to make the program more likely to be implemented properly.

See, I told you that you knew way more about this than me. I could definit ely benefit from a bit more training in this to be honest. I use a lot of behaviorism and tend to be the expert in the room compared to the rest of the clinicians, but some of my implentation is guided more by intuition and as I have seen with other aspects of clinical intervention, intuition is good and useful and needed but is much improved with increased technical knowledge. One thing I liked about Dr. Linehan is that at the workshops I have been to is how much she emphasizes and integrates fundamental behavioral principles. I aspire to that myself and also think the field as a whole has moved a little too far away from behaviorism to our detriment. The vast majority of therapists I have worked with have no better understanding of behaviorism than the average person. some of them have been pretty well trained and competent, I just don’t think they get much more info on it past Intro to Psych.

 

[clausewitz2]

Yep

specific Alternative(s), typically (and desirably) functionally equivalent to the problematic behavior you're trying to decrease.

Those are the most common, but you can also reinforce low (DRL) or diminishing (DRD) rates of the problematic behavior, as well as specific rates (or above minimum rates) of an alternate or incompatible behavior (DRH, with the H generally standing for High). There are also variations/parameters on when reinforcement is available or delivered (e.g. momentary vs. whole-interval DRO; spaced-responding with a DRL). Choosing the correct interval (e.g., based on average baseline inter-response times is also crucial for effective use of any interval-based DR procedure) is also crucial. Additionally, as the DR program is often meant to be implemented by someone other than a behaviorally trained clinician, knowledge of the research regarding social validity, ease of implementation, and treatment fidelity can't be overlooked.

I don't say all this to sound smart, but more to emphasize that that differential reinforcement in a lot more complicated a topic than most non-behaviorally trained clinicians realize. It represents a major portion of the semester in graduate training in ABA. Sure, you can accomplish a lot with just a DRA/I, but knowledge of other concepts and applications is crucial for optimizing treatment effectiveness and efficiency. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people label and entire DR program as ineffective (often as a step to implementing something more aversive) or conclude that a reinforcer is ineffective, when in fact it's just a matter of adjusting the interval to increase/decrease access to reinforcers or switching to a momentary schedule to make the program more likely to be implemented properly.

Are there any good textbooks or general overviews of the nitty gritty accessible to us non-ABA trained types? Even just telling a few of my patients about the concept of extinction bursts in a non-technical way has been incredibly helpful for them dealing with the more difficult people in their lives so I can't help but feel a better grasp on this stuff would be useful. Plus it sounds fascinating.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Are there any good textbooks or general overviews of the nitty gritty accessible to us non-ABA trained types? Even just telling a few of my patients about the concept of extinction bursts in a non-technical way has been incredibly helpful for them dealing with the more difficult people in their lives so I can't help but feel a better grasp on this stuff would be useful. Plus it sounds fascinating.

Applied Behavior Analysis (Cooper,
Herron, and Heward?) is an awesome tome/text. I have the 2nd edition but I think there's a 3rd edition now.

 

[cara susanna]

I know, I even have an article published in a behaviorism journal, but ClinicalABA makes me feel like I know nothing

 

[ClinicalABA]

Applied Behavior Analysis (Cooper,
Herron, and Heward?) is an awesome tome/text. I have the 2nd edition but I think there's a 3rd edition now.

Yep- this is the go to for a text. Should be understandable for anyone post-bachelors. It's a pretty dense tome. Most recent edition recommended. Primary sources include Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis (back issues used to be available through PubMed) and Behavior Analysis in Practice. I'm a big proponent of Doctoral Level folks using primary sources.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I know, I even have an article published in a behaviorism journal, but ClinicalABA makes me feel like I know nothing

It's what I teach, so I'm kinda forced to know it!

 

[clausewitz2]

Yep- this is the go to for a text. Should be understandable for anyone post-bachelors. It's a pretty dense tome. Most recent edition recommended. Primary sources include Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis (back issues used to be available through PubMed) and Behavior Analysis in Practice. I'm a big proponent of Doctoral Level folks using primary sources.

Oh, for sure re: primary sources, but when I start educating myself about an area I know very little about I like to start with a textbook just to orient myself to the broader picture before getting into the weeds.

 

[borne_before]

There are obvious limitations to doing this in humans, but really a wealth of cross-fostering studies in animals (mice, rats, macaques) that demonstrate a variety of adverse behavioral outcomes in adult offspring who were cross-fostered to mothers on the low-nurturing end of the normal spectrum of maternal care. I really see no reason why these results would not apply to humans as well.



I think the retrospective self-report is definitely a huge issue and wonder whether the reason why the Emotional Abuse subscale has such strong apparent associations with behavioral outcomes is because it is the scale that has the most room for interpretation by the responder and thus a given childhood environment could be selectively 'overreported' as EA by people who are already prone to psychopathology ('orchids') and 'underreported' as EA by people who are more resilient ('daisies').

But that really doesn't explain the animal data, and I think the burden of proof would be on the person claiming that humans are unique in being unaffected by suboptimal early rearing environments that fall short of overt physical/sexual abuse.


Arguably, if the home environment is suboptimal, the kids are better off spending more time in a day care where the caregivers are well regulated and emotionally consistent. Alloparenting is an evolutionary and historical norm for our species. See Sarah Blaffer Hrdy's Mothers and Others for an enlightening perspective on this topic.


Everything's a spectrum, kids are annoying, toddlers are infuriating, and I doubt the parent exists who has never ever raised their voice.
But the bottom line is that calm, well-regulated parents generally raise calm, well-regulated children (in the long term - not talking about toddler behavior here).
Should we not acknowledge this reality lest we offend parents who fall short of that ideal?

Buy the way - alloparenting is something I’ve never considered. It actually helped me handle some of my parental guilt.

My son’s daycare teacher - was on life support and we just got word that she died tonight. Seeing her greet my boy with a hug every morning was often the best part of my day - to know that he was loved and well taken care of while I worked.

This is affecting me more than I thought it would. She was family.

Thanks for introducing me to that concept.