Students and Faculty on admissions committees: how and when are applicants' IAs/criminal records considered in the process?

[confidential.burrow]

As an applicant with a criminal record long in my past, who made mistakes, took responsibility, and turned things around, I am thankful that I have obtained a few interview invitations this cycle.

I am wondering, though, how this might come up again. Will my record, which made it past the interview screeners, be considered again when my application goes before the full committee? Or do committees make an up-or-down determination before II and then disregard the record/IA for the rest of the process? Are certain committee members blinded to an applicant's record/IA? In general, how does it work at your school?

At one school, I was told that one of the interviewers had access to IAs (they didn't say anything about criminal records, though I assume they are lumped together), but that interviewer did not ask me anything about my record. They seemed very busy and I wouldn't be surprised if they just didn't notice it. This worries me only because, besides what's on my AMCAS or secondary, I haven't had an opportunity to directly address any concerns before my app goes to committee. I am also wondering if I should volunteer information about the research I have done regarding my eligibility for licensure, etc, if that information was not already provided in my primary or secondary applications?

I know each school will be different, thus I am hopeful to hear a variety of responses to get a sense for the different ways that things are done. I ask because I am as much interested in creating information for future applicants as I am about my own situation. Thank you very much for your time.

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[Mr.Smile12]

Not only will each school handle such issues differently, the nature of charges may be handled differently according to legal advice.

 

[Goro]

At my school, it's not at the level of Admissions Dean, except for felonies, especially those of crimes against persons. Full stop reject.

Everything else is up to the interviewers and Adcom.

 

[Goro]

Hiw long ago was the transgression, how old were you and what was the nature of the transgression?

 

[LunaOri]

Really bad stuff (assuming it is disclosed) gets the application rejected without getting to the interview stage. Garden-variety IA’s and misdemeanors are discussed by the admissions committee, which reviews the full application after the interview. Significant issues that are not disclosed, and are uncovered by the background check, would result in an acceptance being rescinded.

 

[xffan624]

Really bad stuff (assuming it is disclosed) gets the application rejected without getting to the interview stage. Garden-variety IA’s and misdemeanors are discussed by the admissions committee, which reviews the full application after the interview. Significant issues that are not disclosed, and are uncovered by the background check, would result in an acceptance being rescinded.

Out of curiosity, what usually qualifies at this level? Any DUI? Multiple DUIs? Assaults (I would assume yes)? Most DUIs are misdemeanors in most states but I think general SDN wisdom is it's not the same as any other conviction.

Of course, with the disclaimer this is specific to your school.

 

[Goro]

Out of curiosity, what usually qualifies at this level? Any DUI? Multiple DUIs? Assaults (I would assume yes)? Most DUIs are misdemeanors in most states but I think general SDN wisdom is it's not the same as any other conviction.

Of course, with the disclaimer this is specific to your school.

Great questions for @Moko @Mr.Smile12 , @Angus Avagadro , @GoSpursGo , @Doctor-S @Pathdocmd , @lord999 @Med Ed @gyngyn @LizzyM, @HuskyMD Emeritus

 

[confidential.burrow]

Great questions for @Moko @Mr.Smile12 , @Angus Avagadro , @GoSpursGo , @Doctor-S @Pathdocmd , @lord999 @Med Ed @gyngyn @LizzyM, @HuskyMD Emeritus

Wow thank you for tagging everyone! My hope with this post is to try and leave some information behind for others who have made mistakes and have IAs/criminal history and are navigating the process without much guidance. I especially am wondering the ways it gets taken into account at various stages of the review process. I don't condone criminal behavior but I do believe that some records are worth a redemption arc (that being said, other records are decidedly not). For myself I am mainly trying to assess how different schools vet at different stages; IE if some has 8 interview invites will some end up in WL/R even if their stats and interview were great, because their IA/record wasn’t thoroughly vetted until the full committee met? and similar concerns. But mainly interested in getting information out there for others who might have similar backgrounds given this opaque process. Thank you all in advance

 

[Mr.Smile12]

First

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[Goro]

IE if some has 8 interview invites will some end up in WL/R even if their stats and interview were great, because their IA/record wasn’t thoroughly vetted until the full committee met? and similar concerns.

There is a current SDNer who had been arrested for felony hard possession, maybe with Intent to sell as well.

The charges got knocked down, and I think that despite stellar stats, he only got into a single school, and not one of the Teally Top Ones.

Yes, there are Adcom members who believe in redemption. And yes, the more time that passes between infraction and application, the better, especially when one was young at time of infraction.

It seems to me that most MD schools will screen prior to IIs. DO schools seem less willing to do that.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Out of curiosity, what usually qualifies at this level? Any DUI? Multiple DUIs? Assaults (I would assume yes)? Most DUIs are misdemeanors in most states but I think general SDN wisdom is it's not the same as any other conviction.

Of course, with the disclaimer this is specific to your school.

It’s really hard to answer because it’s the details that matter. In particular, the time since the offense matters a lot. You say “long ago,” so if we’re talking 5-10 years ago that’s much different from 2-3 years ago

 

[LunaOri]

Violence, sexual assault, racist actions, multiple DUIs or drug offenses, and other crimes that suggest having you on campus could create an unsafe environment are likely to get you instantly rejected. One DUI, moving violation, or minor drug offense, are much less likely to be problematic.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I need to point out clinical locations require background checks. Guidance on what is acceptable or not comes from their general input. In the end these judgments are meant to protect the public given the privilege of practicing medicine or being in healthcare.

There are simple checks early in screening, but it doesn't mean discussion of the IA/BC is over and done. Depending on the availability of clinical leaders and legal, it could take time if a precedent has not been set. In the near future I expect AI to help with pattern detection among populations that may have had these issues (retrospective analysis).

I agree with @LunaOri and will add any situations that endanger patients in any clinical setting you may have including early clinical settings in your preclinical years. Your file is always subject to discussion until a decision is made on your IA/BC disclosure.

TL/DR: if you couldn't pass a background check for clinical sites, you won't get admitted. When that happens depends on the process. Trust the process.

The Guide to HealthCare Background Checks

We take a close look at healthcare background checks, which play an essential role in ensuring the competence of medical professionals and keeping patients safe.

www.backgroundchecks.com

P.S. Any review should also include legal and JEDI experts familiar with racial and socioeconomic bias and systemic issues among those who are disciplined or incarcerated. Guess which populations tend to receive more disciplinary sanctions in schools. We cover this in Becoming a Student Doctor.

 

[GoSpursGo]

One other thing to piggyback on @Mr.Smile12 —schools that rotate through a VA tend to have much more inflexible requirements. Because federal government

 

[confidential.burrow]

One other thing to piggyback on @Mr.Smile12 —schools that rotate through a VA tend to have much more inflexible requirements. Because federal government

This is interesting. I have heard that the VA actively tries to help rehabilitate folks. Lots of reports of people working at the VA with extensive criminal history. In fact some are calling for a crack-down: VA hired hundreds of employees with drug-related criminal history, putting veterans at risk: watchdog

But the process for medical trainees is more stringent. From what I can glean on this site, the typical papers used in the VA's onboarding process for trainees - SF-85 (for non-sensitive positions) and this form, only ask about records from the past 5-7 years. This would be an issue for a conviction 2 years before med school but wouldn't affect someone who has been out of trouble for 7+ years. Does this line up with your experience? When have you seen this be an issue for trainees?

The obvious exceptions being a record for things like espionage, treason, child abuse, violence, conspiracy against the government, etc., and nobody with a record like that should apply or be admitted to medical school.

PS- if it seems like I know an awful lot about this, it's because I wanted to do as much research as possible to know that I could actually practice medicine before I made the jump. Despite the research I've done, there's so little information out there and it all varies state-by-state so I advise any applicant with a record to seek professional advice in the state(s) in which you are hoping to attend med school and residency.

 

[confidential.burrow]

I need to point out clinical locations require background checks. Guidance on what is acceptable or not comes from their general input. In the end these judgments are meant to protect the public given the privilege of practicing medicine or being in healthcare.

There are simple checks early in screening, but it doesn't mean discussion of the IA/BC is over and done. Depending on the availability of clinical leaders and legal, it could take time if a precedent has not been set. In the near future I expect AI to help with pattern detection among populations that may have had these issues (retrospective analysis).

I agree with @LunaOri and will add any situations that endanger patients in any clinical setting you may have including early clinical settings in your preclinical years. Your file is always subject to discussion until a decision is made on your IA/BC disclosure.

TL/DR: if you couldn't pass a background check for clinical sites, you won't get admitted. When that happens depends on the process. Trust the process.

The Guide to HealthCare Background Checks

We take a close look at healthcare background checks, which play an essential role in ensuring the competence of medical professionals and keeping patients safe.

www.backgroundchecks.com

P.S. Any review should also include legal and JEDI experts familiar with racial and socioeconomic bias and systemic issues among those who are disciplined or incarcerated. Guess which populations tend to receive more disciplinary sanctions in schools. We cover this in Becoming a Student Doctor.

Thank you for this info! So it sounds like admissions committees have checked with legal professionals to ensure that an accepted applicant ought to be able to practice medicine, at least in the state where the med school is located? Would it be reasonable in most cases for an applicant to assume that if they are admitted, they won't have any issues in the future?

The reason I ask is the heartbreaking story of Leigh Sundem. She had multiple felonies as I recall, so a very significant record, despite her inspiring turnaround. But she was accepted to a med school (Rochester I believe) and failed to match into residency, likely because hospitals, rotation sites, and even the DEA would not allow her to practice unrestricted. I hope schools have taken more steps to ensure they are only admitting people who will be able to match and then practice. Fear of ending up in her situation is what has driven me to do as much research as I can and share information with others who made mistakes in their past.

I also could see massive pitfalls with using AI. Especially given all the known problems with AI bias. I would think if AI is used more in applications then applicants with records would be at a disadvantage. Especially considering, as you already touched upon, applicants with records may tend to come from socioeconomic and racial backgrounds that are already at a disadvantage.

 

[eigen]

Not medical school, but a little over a decade ago I remember a case making news when a student who had served time for killing a former professor was admitted to law school after being released from jail.

It made waves where I was at the time, and sparked a lot of discussions in graduate and professional admissions folks broadly with an eye towards how to handle cases of rehabilitation while weighing safety and perceived safety of other people at the institution.

 

[GoSpursGo]

This is interesting. I have heard that the VA actively tries to help rehabilitate folks. Lots of reports of people working at the VA with extensive criminal history. In fact some are calling for a crack-down: VA hired hundreds of employees with drug-related criminal history, putting veterans at risk: watchdog

But the process for medical trainees is more stringent. From what I can glean on this site, the typical papers used in the VA's onboarding process for trainees - SF-85 (for non-sensitive positions) and this form for federal employment, only ask about police records from the past 5-7 years. This could certainly be an issue for someone with a conviction 2 years before med school but wouldn't affect someone who has been out of trouble for 7+ years. Does this line up with your experience? When have you seen this be an issue for trainees?

The obvious exceptions being a record for things like espionage, treason, child abuse, violence, conspiracy against the government, etc., and nobody with a record like that should apply or be admitted to medical school.

PS- if it seems like I know an awful lot about this, it's because I wanted to do as much research as possible to know that I could actually practice medicine before I made the jump. Despite the research I've done, there's so little information out there and it all varies state-by-state so I advise any applicant with a record to seek professional advice in the state(s) in which you are hoping to attend med school and residency.

This level of detail is definitely beyond my level of expertise. But again, the bottom line is the details of what you did and when you did it are likely important, and the schools affiliated with a VA may have less flexibility to be charitable for certain kinds of offenses. That is not to say that you can’t get into a school affiliated with a VA if you have a record, but just that there may be some red lines that may or may not apply to you.

 

[Goro]

This is interesting. I have heard that the VA actively tries to help rehabilitate folks. Lots of reports of people working at the VA with extensive criminal history. In fact some are calling for a crack-down: VA hired hundreds of employees with drug-related criminal history, putting veterans at risk: watchdog

But the process for medical trainees is more stringent. From what I can glean on this site, the typical papers used in the VA's onboarding process for trainees - SF-85 (for non-sensitive positions) and this form, only ask about records from the past 5-7 years. This would be an issue for a conviction 2 years before med school but wouldn't affect someone who has been out of trouble for 7+ years. Does this line up with your experience? When have you seen this be an issue for trainees?

The obvious exceptions being a record for things like espionage, treason, child abuse, violence, conspiracy against the government, etc., and nobody with a record like that should apply or be admitted to medical school.

PS- if it seems like I know an awful lot about this, it's because I wanted to do as much research as possible to know that I could actually practice medicine before I made the jump. Despite the research I've done, there's so little information out there and it all varies state-by-state so I advise any applicant with a record to seek professional advice in the state(s) in which you are hoping to attend med school and residency.

Here's what is facing an accplicant with a questionable past. Adcoms will ask:

1. Is this the type of person we want as a student?

2. Why admit this person when there are so many other candidates without this type of record?

 

[lord999]

This is interesting. I have heard that the VA actively tries to help rehabilitate folks. Lots of reports of people working at the VA with extensive criminal history. In fact some are calling for a crack-down: VA hired hundreds of employees with drug-related criminal history, putting veterans at risk: watchdog

But the process for medical trainees is more stringent. From what I can glean on this site, the typical papers used in the VA's onboarding process for trainees - SF-85 (for non-sensitive positions) and this form, only ask about records from the past 5-7 years. This would be an issue for a conviction 2 years before med school but wouldn't affect someone who has been out of trouble for 7+ years. Does this line up with your experience? When have you seen this be an issue for trainees?

The obvious exceptions being a record for things like espionage, treason, child abuse, violence, conspiracy against the government, etc., and nobody with a record like that should apply or be admitted to medical school.

PS- if it seems like I know an awful lot about this, it's because I wanted to do as much research as possible to know that I could actually practice medicine before I made the jump. Despite the research I've done, there's so little information out there and it all varies state-by-state so I advise any applicant with a record to seek professional advice in the state(s) in which you are hoping to attend med school and residency.

VA and other government. We only ask 7 years but pull down lifetime FBI Identification Records (official term) for adjudication. Violence and offenses against children (even if you were a minor) are flagged irrespective of time if felonies. There is no such thing as expunged in those records.

Schools that are VA affiliates through Office of Academic Affiliations are not required to have the same standard, but many do to save time on reapplication later.

Medical trainees are no more stringent than other health professionals. There are the same universally and actually are lower than career service.


It depends on a case basis. My schools screen prior to II’s for anything that the state forbids for licensing…AND failure to pay child support, which is also a weird state disqualification from admission. Government including VA will screen out officer dismissal or dishonorable discharge (not OTH) as they are not credentialed under ordinary circumstances.

 

[LizzyM]

My school wouldn't waste an interview slot on someone who, on paper, would not be a candidate for admission regardless of however they come across during the interview.

If the crime would cause people at the school to say, "How on earth did you think it was a good idea to admit someone who had been convicted of that?" if it were ever to come to light, then it is likely to be a non-starter.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

As with my former school, the admissions office would screen these before interviews. I'm unsure of specific criteria, but I would not see these applicants at an interview. Legal troubles can prevent students from rotating at hospitals and licensure. I have had students pulled off rotations at hospitals for a prior unrwported DUI wo didn't pass a backround check

 

[confidential.burrow]

As with my former school, the admissions office would screen these before interviews. I'm unsure of specific criteria, but I would not see these applicants at an interview. Legal troubles can prevent students from rotating at hospitals and licensure. I have had students pulled off rotations at hospitals for a prior unrwported DUI wo didn't pass a backround check

Interesting. I imagine that DUI is one of the most common charges that applicants have in addition to MIP or marijuana possession. To be clear, was the student pulled because they didn’t report it or because they had a DUI period? I assume it was a recent DUI (perhaps during med school), but would a disclosed DUI from several years ago have raised the same concerns? If not it would be good for applicants with DUIs to avoid whatever that state / hospital system that is.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Interesting. I imagine that DUI is one of the most common charges that applicants have in addition to MIP or marijuana possession. To be clear, was the student pulled because they didn’t report it or because they had a DUI period? I assume it was a recent DUI (perhaps during med school), but would a disclosed DUI from several years ago have raised the same concerns? If not it would be good for applicants with DUIs to avoid whatever that state / hospital system that is.

Students have to pass a backround check to be on clinical rotations in hospitals. This is to allow students to interact with patients and children. I'm not sure what, if any hospitals don't require them. I know as Faculty I had to pass a backround check. If students have any legal issues they should work with an attorney to get them expunged if possible.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Interesting. I imagine that DUI is one of the most common charges that applicants have in addition to MIP or marijuana possession. To be clear, was the student pulled because they didn’t report it or because they had a DUI period? I assume it was a recent DUI (perhaps during med school), but would a disclosed DUI from several years ago have raised the same concerns? If not it would be good for applicants with DUIs to avoid whatever that state / hospital system that is.

Same refrain--it depends on the school. In general, of course and older and previously disclosed offense is less likely to be a problem than a recent offense or one that you try to hide. The given story specifically sounds like the DUI likely occurred during med school because it's unlikely they would have passed the med school entrance background check otherwise.