St. Luke of Liberia (and Ghana)

[poly]

From http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1881494&nav=168XNGkc

Gardner says Andrew Michael did what a lot of people do. He applied for a fake degree from a foreign medical school, in this case, St. Luke's Medical School in Liberia, Africa. But investigators traced the headquarters of the school to a rundown apartment in Los Angeles, with a makeshift sign on the door.

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[pjm]

that article is from a TV news station. Here's a much better article:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Dec-08-Mon-2003/news/22741125.html

Gardner stated in court documents that authorities learned Michael is enrolled at St. Luke's Medical School, a private institution in Liberia, Africa.

St. Luke's worldwide office is in Los Angeles, but the school is not accredited by the American Medical Association and does not qualify in Nevada for licensure, Gardner said.

Gardner also wrote in his bail motion that Michael's admission to St. Luke's was based on his "purported degree from Hamilton University, a Wyoming-based Internet institution that has been described as a `diploma mill' in recent national news stories."

This article doesn't describe St. Luke's as fake, but the school does not appear to look too closely at credentials.

 

[mellantro]

oh my that is SCARY. that dude has some SERIOUS problems.

 

[Energon]

What about this place? http://www.uhsa.ag/index2.htm

They can turn general dentists and vets into physicans.

 

[wsr497]

I read the crap on this article supposedly on St. Luke. But, it is really about some con man, who had taken advantage of St Luke admissions. I do not know what the validity issues are, but I thought this forum was mainly comprised of traditional med students.

Why are we talking about potentially fraudulent schools? If someone goes there, they have probably researched it thoroughly. This is such a f#** waste of time. Aren't there forums for students going to alternative schools, like europe or carribean schools.

 

[poly]

I read the crap on this article supposedly on St. Luke. But, it is really about some con man, who had taken advantage of St Luke admissions. I do not know what the validity issues are, but I thought this forum was mainly comprised of traditional med students.

Why are we talking about potentially fraudulent schools? If someone goes there, they have probably researched it thoroughly. This is such a f#** waste of time. Aren't there forums for students going to alternative schools, like europe or carribean schools.

Okay, so where does one go to research "potentially fraudulent schools" thoroughly?

And what does "thoroughly" comprise of?

 

[8744]

I read the crap on this article supposedly on St. Luke. But, it is really about some con man, who had taken advantage of St Luke admissions. I do not know what the validity issues are, but I thought this forum was mainly comprised of traditional med students.

Why are we talking about potentially fraudulent schools? If someone goes there, they have probably researched it thoroughly. This is such a f#** waste of time. Aren't there forums for students going to alternative schools, like europe or carribean schools.

Come on, man. It's in freaking Liberia fer cryin' out loud. That should be enough to scare you off. Don't you all read the papers? Liberia is just now coming out of a 14-year civil war in which most of the intelligentsia (the so-called "Americo-Liberians" who were descendents of freed American slaves) has either fled the country or been killed. I have been there (as a Marine) back in the early nineties and the country had fallen apart. Sort of like Somalia but not as well organized.

Why anybody thinks they will get a good medical education there is beyond me. The fact is that people who are desperate to get into medical school, any medical school, will "apply" there. I say "apply" because the school probably has zero to no entrance standards. If you are so desperate that you need to do a mail-order medical school in Liberia then maybe you actually don't have the intelligence to be a physician or you need to take a couple of years to study harder to improve your credentials.

 

[Jasminegab]

If you are so desperate that you need to do a mail-order medical school in Liberia then maybe you actually don't have the intelligence to be a physician or you need to take a couple of years to study harder to improve your credentials.

And you show what kind of intelligence a physician should have? Hmmmmm

As for mail order medical school, That's new to me. Didn't know that anyone could get their medical degree through the mail. But it dang sure sounds nice I'm just that desperate that I'll be the first to sign up.

 

[merlin17]

http://www.africaatthemillennium.com/Health.htm

this is interesting. it is a real place and might improve health care in liberia.

i think it is really low, though, to try to con americans into taking the courses by saying that graduates are eligible to take our licensing boards when they couldn't get licensed to practice here without a residency.

the website is really sketchy. they have some very questionable looking lecture outlines...very strange. again, great thing for liberia if it can improve their health system!

 

[Jasminegab]

http://www.africaatthemillennium.com/Health.htm

this is interesting. it is a real place and might improve health care in liberia.

i think it is really low, though, to try to con americans into taking the courses by saying that graduates are eligible to take our licensing boards when they couldn't get licensed to practice here without a residency.

the website is really sketchy. they have some very questionable looking lecture outlines...very strange. again, great thing for liberia if it can improve their health system!

Let me comment that SLUSOM does not misrepresent anything on it's website. For you information, students have taken the USMLE 1,2,3 and CS licensing boards and have done very well. They also have taken ECFMG another Licensing test which all foriegn medical graduates have to take. There are students doing rotations in the US and Africa as well as India. Last I was aware, before you can do rotations one must pass USMLE 1. Also, SLUSOM does have students here in residency which requires an FMG to have passed all licensing boards test. So how is this misrepresentation?

Lastly, how do you know what are lessons are like unless your a student? No one can access the lessons without a student id name and password. It's becoming funny how so many people are trying so hard to make SLUSOM out to be what's it's not all because students can take their basic science online. This is just another example how people try to use misunderstood information to prove a point. In fact, it only shows how little information you have against SLUSOM because you have gone to thier website and taken information which you clearly don't understand and try to build a case against SLUSOM. It's sad, really sad.

 

[moo]

I don't know how one can do med school online, even if it's the first two years. I mean, you still need to take courses like physical exam and stuff. What are you gonna do, practice on your mom while reading these online notes? I believe one can learn the basic sciences through reading books and notes, but how can you substitute practicing your physical exam skills by reading online notes????

 

[Jasminegab]

I don't know how one can do med school online, even if it's the first two years. I mean, you still need to take courses like physical exam and stuff. What are you gonna do, practice on your mom while reading these online notes? I believe one can learn the basic sciences through reading books and notes, but how can you substitute practicing your physical exam skills by reading online notes????

Are you serious? Yeah I practice on my cat when he's not trying to escape. I normally hunt him down and have to tie him up so that I can practice phsyical exams. When that doesn't work, I go next door and do a physical exam on my neighbor, she's always willing to help.

 

[group_theory]

The 2 years learning medicine via long-distance (internet) might pose a problem come licensure time

Many states, including New Jersey, New York, Texas, and California, require that there be physical residence during those first 2 years. I know of no examples of students from St. Luke's denied licensure (and it would be great if I am proven wrong by showing me an example of a St. Luke grad getting licensure) ... but follow the perils of IUHS and St. Christopher (both of which are sorta unique).

IUHS also offers an internet-based medical school. (in no way am I comparing St. Luke to IUHS in terms of location/academics/reputation). The internet-pathway has so far lead to no licensure that I am aware of (and in some cases, the state board has asked for proof of physical resident during medical education in order to get licensure).

St. Christopher is not internet based ... but is in a unique situation. It is chartered in Senegal but the actual location of instruction is in England. So far, it is running into trouble with its grads getting licensure because the site of education differs from the country of charter. The fact that New Jersey, a FMG friendly state, has taken the position against St. Chris is "interesting"

However, I suggest you visit other forums (Caribbean) and www.valuemd.com to read and ask to see if what I have said is true or not (or things may have changed)


Pennsylvania, I believe, has taken the same stance as California/New Jersey/New York/Texas when it comes to physical presence in the country of charter. It stems from this little rule

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter17/chap17toc.html
? 17.1. License without restriction

(b) An applicant who is a graduate of an unaccredited medical college, who files an application for a license after December 31, 1988?the application is not considered filed with the Board until it is complete?shall, in addition to satisfying the requirements in subsection (a), have completed:

(1) Four academic years totaling at least 32 months and 4,000 hours of instruction in medical curriculum. Regular attendance shall be verified. Credit will not be given toward this requirement for instruction obtained in other than an accredited or unaccredited medical college, except for clinical rotations assigned under the auspices of the medical college in which the applicant was enrolled while participating in the clinical rotations.

(2) Seventy-two weeks of clinical rotations in an institution which has a graduate medical training program in the clinical area for which credit is sought, or, if the institution is not within the United States, is either a part of a medical college or has a formal affiliation with a medical college.

Now before you yell at me for misinterpretating the law, contact the Board of Medicine ... it is their administrative responsibility to develop and interprete the laws that the State Legislature pass ... so they have the final say on this (and also because your interpretation or mine interpretation is meaingless). So contact them for the final word

State Board of Medicine
P.O. Box 2649, Harrisburg, PA 17105-2649
Phone - (717) 783-1400
Fax - (717) 787-7769
[email protected]



Now, even though this post seems like I'm bashing St. Luke, I'm not. But I have some concerns ... and I want current students as well as potential students to be aware of all possibilities (both postive and negative) before making a decision. If after going through all the information, you decide to pursue your education at St. Luke ... then I wish you the best of luck and hope you'll return to SDN as a great success story

 

[poly]

Let me comment that SLUSOM does not misrepresent anything on it's website. For you information, students have taken the USMLE 1,2,3 and CS licensing boards and have done very well. They also have taken ECFMG another Licensing test which all foriegn medical graduates have to take. There are students doing rotations in the US and Africa as well as India. Last I was aware, before you can do rotations one must pass USMLE 1. Also, SLUSOM does have students here in residency which requires an FMG to have passed all licensing boards test. So how is this misrepresentation?

...

Ummm, I think you are very wrong here (especially the highlighted in bold).

First of all, the Liberia school started year 2000. That means their first students (if any) should be just finished. And you are saying that they have done Step 3 already? Really?

Secondly, ECFMG tests are the USMLE steps 1, 2ck, 2cs and 3.

Third, one need not do step 3 to begin residency.


In addition, tell us how many SLU students are in US residency and where?

 

[Jasminegab]

(1) Four academic years totaling at least 32 months and 4,000 hours of instruction in medical curriculum. Regular attendance shall be verified. Credit will not be given toward this requirement for instruction obtained in other than an accredited or unaccredited medical college, except for clinical rotations assigned under the auspices of the medical college in which the applicant was enrolled while participating in the clinical rotations.

I have called the board and already ok'ed it with my state board. What this stands for is that a medical student must have 32 months totaling 4,000 hours of medical instruction. What it is saying, based on my conversation with the board, is that a student who attends a medical school for less than 32 months and less than 4,000 hours of instruction will not qualify for licensure in the state of PA. You cannot go to medical school and get your degree in less than 3yrs. Credit will not be given for students who attend Chiropractic School and transfer (Advanced credit) to medical school and graduate in 2yrs. Your attendence at medical school will be verified to reflect that you have met this requirement. It is not saying that you must have 32 months totaling 4,000 hours at the physical location of the school.

PA is not adopting the same laws as California and the states that follow after California. Nor is it forseen in the future due to the number of physician leaving our state because of malpractice insurance rates. If they were to adopt such a law, this state would be in serious trouble in terms of physician patient ratio which we are close to now. Out of many big states such as California, we have the highest malpractice insurance rates in the US and physicians are closing their practices in droves. California and the other state that follow after California are not in this situation. In fact, they are experiencing the opposite of physicians coming to their state in droves.

 

[Jasminegab]

Ummm, I think you are very wrong here (especially the highlighted in bold).

First of all, the Liberia school started year 2000. That means their first students (if any) should be just finished. And you are saying that they have done Step 3 already? Really?

Secondly, ECFMG tests are the USMLE steps 1, 2ck, 2cs and 3.

Third, one need not do step 3 to begin residency.


In addition, tell us how many SLU students are in US residency and where?

Poly, I'm not going to argue with you. This was taken from ECFMG website:

If you are an international medical graduate and wish to enter an ACGME-accredited residency or fellowship program in the United States, you must be certified by ECFMG before you can enter the program. You must also be certified by ECFMG if you wish to take Step 3 of the three-step United States Medical Licensing Examination? (USMLE?). ECFMG Certification is required to obtain a license to practice medicine.

You must be certified before taking step 3 or becoming licensed. You can't take step 3 without being certified first. How do you get certified? You must pass step 1 and 2 and your school must be listed with WHO/IMED. You are correct in saying you don't need step 3 to begin residency. And after reading my school's newsletter, I stand corrected. Some of SLUSOM students have taken step 1 and 2 are in residency, they have not taken step 3 yet.

I'll say it again, think what you want to think, this goes for you Poly and whoever else out there that thinks SLUSOM is a scam/fraud. I know different and what I know is not based upon what others think of the school but what the facts say about the school. This is becoming a waste of my time with me going back and forth with people who know nothing about my school. I rather spend my time talking with medical students who can share their experience with me rather than go back and forth. With this said....Have fun trying to tear down SLUSOM. You'll have a long way to go.

 

[MD Rapper]

Jasminegab,

This is probably like the 5th board I've seen you on arguing about the same old thing. Please don't take any of the following comments personally...

I just kind of find it strange that you go to such great lengths to defend St. Lukes. I'm not here to question it's legitimacy, but it seems like you have some insecurity issues about your situation. I mean, by talking about it so much on these boards and arguing miniscule points you are trying to justify that you made the right decision to yourself more than anything else.

Why have you put so much time into defending this school? Is it a daily ritual for you to log onto SDN and spend countless hours talking about the credibility of St. Lukes? Shouldn't you be studying? Why didn't you just go to a Caribbean school? Why have you taken such a gamble with your medical education?? You might learn everything that any other med student does, but what is it worth if you have to deal with this endless cycle of justification to your colleagues, other friends, or patients!?

Like everyone else on SDN, I am trying to give you some sound advice... the game is over... stop being so mad/angry/defensive and please take control of your life before you screw up your education any more. I think you should drop out and get to a good Caribbean school ASAP! I'm thinking AUC, St. Georges or Ross. And if you don't meet the requirements, maybe you should work on 'em before jumping into medicine full force. Trust me, if you stay on this path, you will not be a happy person for the rest of your professional life! I'm sure many others will agree with me...

 

[moo]

Why anyone would want to attend a school that's been around only since 2000 (accepting Americans) is beyond me. If you can't get into MD/DO onshore, try the Caribbean. There are three schools down there and I don't think it's hard at all to get into one of those more legit schools. I mean, why RISK your future like that? If everything works out for you, fine. But if there's even a remote chance (and I can tell you that there is... especially judging from the comments of SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE) that this thing doesn't pan out, you will be out a lot of money and will have wasted four years of your life.

 

[merlin17]

Let me comment that SLUSOM does not misrepresent anything on it's website. For you information, students have taken the USMLE 1,2,3 and CS licensing boards and have done very well. They also have taken ECFMG another Licensing test which all foriegn medical graduates have to take. There are students doing rotations in the US and Africa as well as India. Last I was aware, before you can do rotations one must pass USMLE 1. Also, SLUSOM does have students here in residency which requires an FMG to have passed all licensing boards test. So how is this misrepresentation?

Lastly, how do you know what are lessons are like unless your a student? No one can access the lessons without a student id name and password.

I'm sorry, but from what I can see, I was the first person to imply that the school was real and not a fake...but thanks for the hostile response implying that I know nothing about medical school!

I am very doubtful that a school that started in 2000 has someone doing a residency in the US, but if they do, it would be great to know that! I may have mispoke but the website implies that with a degree from SLU you could practice in the US...I'm just highly doubtful that you could get a residency. I'm not sure how I have "taken information from their website that I clearly don't understand" by my post.

If you look at the website, it has sample lessons. That is how I know what the lessons look like although I'm not a student. I assumed that if they have sample lessons, they are probably there to represent what actual lessons might look like.

I didn't realize there was someone on the board that attended the school. I'm sorry if I offended you.

 

[Jasminegab]

I'm sorry, but from what I can see, I was the first person to imply that the school was real and not a fake...but thanks for the hostile response implying that I know nothing about medical school!

I am very doubtful that a school that started in 2000 has someone doing a residency in the US, but if they do, it would be great to know that! I may have mispoke but the website implies that with a degree from SLU you could practice in the US...I'm just highly doubtful that you could get a residency. I'm not sure how I have "taken information from their website that I clearly don't understand" by my post.

If you look at the website, it has sample lessons. That is how I know what the lessons look like although I'm not a student. I assumed that if they have sample lessons, they are probably there to represent what actual lessons might look like.

I didn't realize there was someone on the board that attended the school. I'm sorry if I offended you.

I do apologize for my outbrust. It is obvious what people think of the school I have choosen to go and my decision. Everyone has a right to feel what they feel and it's not my job to change the way people think. I've made it a point to no longer respond to what people think about SLUSOM. I did not come here to argue or to prove people wrong. I'm more interested in sharing experiences than to keep up a debate. I'm happy with my decision that I've made and if that is a mistake, then I'm the only one who will pay for it in the end.

Again, I do apologize for my actions.

 

[8744]

Hey, if you have ever been to a harbor, you will notice that almost every ship is either registered in Panama or Liberia. You would think that Liberia must be some killer maritime country to have so many ships.

The fact is, however, that Liberia serves as a "flag of convenience" for the merchant fleets of the world. For a fee paid to whatever government is currently in power, ships can be registered and in doing so can avoid the onerous neccessity of paying the crews good wages, inspecting the hulls, and adhereing to the maritime safety standards of the Western world.

See my point?

 

[stinkycheese]

Jasmine, people voicing their opinion not to piss you off, but out of concern. We all know how it feels to want to go to medical school so badly that we would do almost anything to get there! But if your credentials are not up to snuff, then take the time to learn the material again, and do better. Go Caribbean. SGU is a great institution. Do something other than learning "medicine" over the internet, because that is not the way to become a physician, and it makes you look foolish and obsessed with the degree- while not caring about the education you'll receive.

If you're worried about a felony in your past, why not spend some years doing a MA program? Get those faculty to write you nice letters and ask them to comment on your personality. You can show you've overcome!

Just don't get this fake degree and then think that you will be happy!

 

[box29]

Something interesting I found in the Asia forum...you might want to look into this...

This was quoted from DocTan:

To be fully licensed in the US: Your school must be in the IMED (international medical education directory) the WHO is no longer used. Although, all Philippine schools made it to the IMED list, I think they changed it because lots of Caribbean and Mexican schools where fraudulent. Must pass USMLE step 1, 2 ck and cs, have a diploma and verified transcript(this is a new requirement by ECFMG). If you have all of these things done, congrats your ECFMG certified.

 

[Yahweh]

Something interesting I found in the Asia forum...you might want to look into this...

This was quoted from DocTan:

To be fully licensed in the US: Your school must be in the IMED (international medical education directory) the WHO is no longer used. Although, all Philippine schools made it to the IMED list, I think they changed it because lots of Caribbean and Mexican schools where fraudulent. Must pass USMLE step 1, 2 ck and cs, have a diploma and verified transcript(this is a new requirement by ECFMG). If you have all of these things done, congrats your ECFMG certified.

So it was written.

 

[poly]

The following was written: You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

I feel bad for saying this. But Jasmine, you need to think about this more carefully.

NOT one online medical school has been successful in getting their graduates licensed. Most of them have gone out of business come licensing time, which usually takes about 7 years.

You can take Step 1, Step 2, and Step 3 without being able to be licensed. You can also do a residency.

But if you do an online school, you will not get licensed! Do an Internet search on IUHS and other schools that have followed this vain.

If your spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on your medical education without getting an MD, than you will have ruined your life! The average profession does not have the earning power to withstand heavy debt.

So, think hard. I don't want to sound harsh or mean. It's just the truth.

Ask yourself why there has never been one Internet medical school that was successful? This alone should make you reconsider.

You don't have to go this way. There are schools in the Caribbean that will take you as long as you have finished your premed requirements - St. Eust, St. Matthews, MUA. These schools are set up correctly and can get you licensed in most states.

It would be wise to reconsider your choices.

 

[muhammd]

well Jasmine my advice to you study online business administration "easy to learn and cheap tuition" good luck.

 

[pjm]

well Jasmine my advice to you study online business administration "easy to learn and cheap tuition" good luck.

Did you notice that this is a old, dead thread? Jasminegab recently dropped out of St. Luke's after finding out the tough way that when something sounds too good to be true, it usually is:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=154421

 

[muhammd]

Oh yeah right that why B is good for her

 

[muhammd]

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Oh yeah that why business is good for her