Southern California programs

[DoctorWannaBe]

Has anyone interviewed in Southern California yet? I've done interviews at UCLA, UCI, UCSD, Loma Linda, and I have some scheduled at CHOC and Harbor. I was thinking about cancelling my interviews at CHOC and Harbor because I don't want to live in L.A., I've heard CHOC residents are really overworked. Can someone give their impressions of CHOC and Harbor so I can decide if I want to do my interviews there?

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[165808]

xxxx

 

[CrazyPeds527]

So i have interviews at both scheduled; i would be curious to know your impression of UCI.

I have a friend at CHOC who has said she loves her training but feels like she has been worked very hard. She has said they are making changes to lighten the intern's workload like having an extra senior on call to take admits, but that even so, interns are admitting 10-15 pts per night and that it is busy. Cap for interns is 12 pts on wards, 8 in NICU (at least so i have been told).

FWIW i'm gonna go check it out anyway; i didn't apply to L.A proper because i'm not a fan of L.A, but i felt like irvine and OC were different enough; but if you are not jazzed to live in L.A or orange county, why bother going if you aren't really going to want to be there? save yourself the trouble of putting on the "interview face" and let someone in off the wait list; you might make someone's day!

My 2 cents, not worth any more that that

 

[izzy08]

I just finished interviews at UCSD, UCLA, CHOC, CHLA and the bay area programs so I can give my impressions from the day. However, since I am from the midwest I could make only one trip to cali and this has been a crazy two weeks for me

CHOC: I was just there today and honestly I am kind of scared to be an intern I am not sure I can do 15 admissions a night And every resident agreed that they are overworked however, they all seem very happy and say they love it there. I think that you would see good bread and butter peds and all the high acuity stuff too. The only thing is seems to lack is solid organ transplant and trauma in the ED.

CHLA: These residents seem even more overworked than CHOC, I wanted to tell the resident doing the tour to stop saying how hard it is and that we better be ready to work (9 months on call). They do have subsidized housing and everything is there. Residents did not seem quite as happy as other places I have been. Everything is electronic whych us nice.

UCLA: I was not as impressed as I thought I would be with this program. They will be moving to a new hospital which is beautiful but currently they did not have some things I thought they would like online orders. I was there on a sat so maybe it was just a weird day but not many residents wre around to talk to, I hope to make it to their social event to actually meet some of them. Overall, I has everything and good research opportunities but not my favorite so far.

UCSD: They just made a big change to the way their words are run and I seems to be alot better than before. I love san diego so I think this made me give this program more of a chance than if it was in a different place. They have a new clinic which is very nice and they deem to have a good balance of work and free time. The chair is really into research but most of the residents don't do much.

Well I hope my ramblings help I feel like so many cali programs will give you a great education and I am going to have a hard time making my list. If anyone has any other questions let me know. I am also interested to hear what other people think. Good luck everyone!

 

[Tone2002]

Hey!! I start the interview trail on Monday and would love some input on the programs you've interviewed at!!

I did work with one second-year CHOC resident while she was doing an away at the same place I was doing an extramural and can confirm they work REALLY hard there. Every other sentence out of her mouth was telling me not to go there. Said they admit an absurd amount of kids overnight, never get a wink of sleep, work like dogs with basically no cap on patients they carry individually, and on and on. 80 hour work week is foreign there. Two weeks with her, and I'm scared to death of the place. I still plan on interviewing because I want to give them a chance to change my mind, say they're changing things. Who knows. Part of what she thought was wrong is that they have too few residents for the amount of traffic through that place, but they refuse to hire any more. I'm interested to hear what people's impressions were of CHOC for this interview cycle.

And everywhere else in Cali, for that matter!!

I know an intern there and they are q4 for like 11 months to my understanding. He feels like a walking zombie at times. Good luck.

 

[emroyka]

That's unfortunate - I'd heard about them being overworked a couple years ago and was hoping there'd be more of a change by now. I have UCI too so I'll still go, but I really liked the fact that CHOC's one central location since I'm not much of a driver.

 

[izzy08]

I know an intern there and they are q4 for like 11 months to my understanding. He feels like a walking zombie at times. Good luck.

I could have been misinformed on my interview day but they told us that they are only q4 for 5.5-6 months. They also mentioned that they are trying to make changes to make the residents less overworked. How well that is going I have no idea. Anyone feel free to correct me

 

[jsauce]

a bit of feedback:
i'm an intern at chla right now, and i can confirm the fact that we work hard. however, having done the interview trail myself, and having listened to the same crap you all get shoveled all over the country, i have to wonder what "overworked" really means. i mean, if you want to be a doctor, you're going to have to work hard no matter where you go, and if you're not working hard, then what kind of program are you really in?
there are places where you admit 3 or 4 kids a night and have all the time to research what's going on with them. and there are places, like chla, where you will probably admit 8 and have to read about some of the stuff later. that's a personal decision and one that has to do more with one's own learning style more than breeching some fabricated line of 'working too hard.'
what i do know is this: year after year, our program self-selects some of the most dedicated, brightest kids in the country from some of the best medical schools and it does it with the promise that, when you hand in your pager, you will truly be able to handle anything that walks through the door. and along the way your attendings (a ton of whom trained here), seniors, and co-interns are going to have your back every step of the way.

 

[CookieCrisp]

will post edited, completed post soon....!

 

[E2W]

I am in intern at CHOC, and 100% agree with jsauce. I knew going into CHOC that I would work hard, but I felt prepared from my med school experience. I have always learned better from doing and seeing things, than from reading about it, so for me it seemed that it was at my advantage to see as much as possible. Being in a program where the average admit per night is 3-4 may be nice and relaxing, but I usually had more admits as a med student Peds Sub-I, and wanted to see and experience more. I just remember things better, when I've actually seen it. As for our call schedule, we are q4 for 6-6.5 months (one of which is our NICU month). For 3 months we are on backup (only called if another intern is sick).
My favorite parts of the program: my intern class, our program director, beautiful southern California (including being able to take advantage of the Disneyland annual pass - yes we do get free time), the "Children's" hospital, unexpected gifts to show appreciation (some say 'much diserved'), and did I mention my intern class

If you think you can hang...
...then keep us in mind.

 

[DoctorWannaBe]

I am in intern at CHOC, and 100% agree with jsauce. I knew going into CHOC that I would work hard, but I felt prepared from my med school experience. I have always learned better from doing and seeing things, than from reading about it, so for me it seemed that it was at my advantage to see as much as possible. Being in a program where the average admit per night is 3-4 may be nice and relaxing, but I usually had more admits as a med student Peds Sub-I, and wanted to see and experience more. I just remember things better, when I've actually seen it. As for our call schedule, we are q4 for 6-6.5 months (one of which is our NICU month). For 3 months we are on backup (only called if another intern is sick).
My favorite parts of the program: my intern class, our program director, beautiful southern California (including being able to take advantage of the Disneyland annual pass - yes we do get free time), the "Children's" hospital, unexpected gifts to show appreciation (some say 'much diserved'), and did I mention my intern class

If you think you can hang...
...then keep us in mind.

E2W: Do you feel that you are overworked in comparison to other residency programs, or is your workload managable? 6.5 months of call doesn't seem too bad compared to some of the other programs I've seen, although it sounds like those call months may be more grueling. It sounds like you get 2.5 call free months (counting vacation), right? Is it true what some of the other posts say here, regarding no cap and 10-15 admissions a night? Also, do you know anything about how CHOC compares to UCI in terms of reputation, quality of program, etc? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm really trying to sort out all these California programs!

 

[mangotango]

I guess I'm echoing some of the things already said, but CHLA & CHOC- I don't know if I can handle Q4 for so long. And UCI - commuting between two campuses in LA traffic (I'm a LA native BTW) is too much for me. Living is HellAy is expensive as is, no need to add traffic stress and gas expenses to that bill.
Honestly though, I think the fit and location really matter as well as learning style. I learn from taking care of patients, but I also need good chunk of time for text-book learning to retain information, so Q4 for 9 months is sorter out of the question for me.

 

[izzy08]

can anyone let me know what they thought of ucla, I was there on a sat and didn't have time for a second look. Thanks!

 

[drbetty]

can anyone let me know what they thought of ucla, I was there on a sat and didn't have time for a second look. Thanks!

bump

 

[nocalinsocal]

Hi everyone,

As a [happy] resident at CHOC, I thought I'd comment on some of the things I've read in the above thread...

First of all, let me just say that I love CHOC! It has such a warm, friendly, family-like feeling. Dr. Korb sets the tone - how many program directors do you know of who invite residents to their house for Thanksgiving? We have a great group of residents, who are not only super smart and talented but also a lot of fun to hang out with and a great support system. It's just a very cool group of people to spend your days with. The attendings are great too - approachable and very enthusiastic about teaching. We see a variety of patients - bread & butter peds and a lot of tertiary care as well.

It's a busy place for sure, but I think it's making me a better pediatrician. I want to be able to recognize the "zebras" when I'm out in practice on my own, and the only way I'll be able to do that is to see one (or two or three) as a resident. I guess it depends on your learning style, and I learn best by doing. Last winter was a little crazy, even for me, but Dr. Korb and the administration listened to the residents and brainstormed and came up with some solutions that have made a huge difference this year. There is now a 3rd admitting team on each night, so each intern is only admitting every 3rd patient from 7 pm to 7 am, instead of every other (so nice!). There's also an overflow team during the day so that the teams' lists don't get too long. Interns absolutely cap at 12 post-call, 8 pre-call, and the 80 hour week is strictly enforced. There's a new admissions system too, with nurses taking the initial triage calls and pretty much handling everything except the MD to MD communication. It's freed the seniors up a lot so that they can spend more time going over their patients with their interns and teaching.

A lot of our applicants have been asking about the affiliation with UCI, and I know there are some rumors floating around out there about it. The affiliation was approved last week, but it's my understanding that it won't really affect this year's applicants. According to Dr. Korb, the earliest a joint CHOC-UCI program could be approved by ACGME is for 2009-2010. This year's applicants who end up at CHOC will still do all their rotations at CHOC and gaduate from CHOC, and the same goes for applicants who end up at UCI. If the combined program is approved for 2010-2011, then those interns would probably spend 80-85% of their time at CHOC, and the rest at Miller's. The purpose of the affiliation, by the way, wasn't to bail anyone out or because either of the programs was broken. It's more of an institutional thing, which will have the benefit of expanding CHOC's research opportunities and maybe increasing it's presence on a national level. I think the fact that the combined program will mostly be at CHOC speaks volumes to the resources we already have.

I'd encourage anyone who's considering CHOC to look at the website (since a lot of false information can get passed around via heresay) and email Dr. Korb or the chief residents if anything's not clear.

Good luck!

 

[165808]

A lot of our applicants have been asking about the affiliation with UCI, and I know there are some rumors floating around out there about it. The affiliation was approved last week, but it's my understanding that it won't really affect this year's applicants. According to Dr. Korb, the earliest a joint CHOC-UCI program could be approved by ACGME is for 2009-2010. This year's applicants who end up at CHOC will still do all their rotations at CHOC and gaduate from CHOC, and the same goes for applicants who end up at UCI. If the combined program is approved for 2009-2010, then those interns would probably spend 80-85% of their time at CHOC, and the rest at Miller's. The purpose of the affiliation, by the way, wasn't to bail anyone out or because either of the programs was broken. It's more of an institutional thing, which will have the benefit of expanding CHOC's research opportunities and maybe increasing it's presence on a national level. I think the fact that the combined program will mostly be at CHOC speaks volumes to the resources we already have.

As a UCI intern, I have to say this is not entirely true from the UCI standpoint. I don't want to start a long UCI-CHOC thread, because I honestly don't know all the details yet. The above may hold true if you match at CHOC, but if you match at UCI, you will be doing rotations at CHOC during your intern year. What's more, about half of the current UCI interns will be doing a rotation at CHOC this year.

As of now, it is not a joint program, it is an affiliate site as far as UCI is concerned. With the building of the new UCI hospital, there is no pediatric or PICU area, so we have joined with CHOC as an affiliate site. We still do most of our rotations at Miller's (only about 2 per year will be at CHOC; more if you choose to do electives over there, too), and this will not change. I'm not sure what will happen once the merger goes through, but Miller's is a primary site for the UCI residents, and I highly doubt that we will be doing most of our rotations over at CHOC.

Again, the details of the merger have not been hammered out, and all I can tell anyone is what the plans are for the rest of this year and the upcoming year. If you have more questions, you can feel free to ask. Or you can ask during your interview day -- there'll be tons of info on that, at least at UCI!

 

[nocalinsocal]

Jendizzle brings up a good point - details of the proposed joint program are certainly not set in stone yet, and I'm sure there will be much negotiating. She's correct that when the Peds units at UCI Orange close this spring, a couple UCI residents will start rotating through CHOC's inpatient service.

The most important thing for applicants to realize is that there is no joint residency program yet. They should judge each program on its own merits. From CHOC's perspective, if they match at CHOC they will do all their rotations at CHOC for all three years and graduate from CHOC's residency program.

 

[165808]

Jendizzle brings up a good point - details of the proposed joint program are certainly not set in stone yet, and I'm sure there will be much negotiating. She's correct that when the Peds units at UCI Orange close this spring, a couple UCI residents will start rotating through CHOC's inpatient service.

The most important thing for applicants to realize is that there is no joint residency program yet. They should judge each program on its own merits. From CHOC's perspective, if they match at CHOC they will do all their rotations at CHOC for all three years and graduate from CHOC's residency program.

Agreed!

Nocalinsocal, I just may be one of the first interns rotating at CHOC, so maybe I'll see you there. Depending on how fast this stuff gets arranged, of course....

 

[twilburys]

Any new thoughts from current residents, people who interviewed this year, or medical students who have rotated at the different hospitals?

I am especially interested in the whole CHOC-UCI affiliation and thoughts on CHLA.

Thanks!

 

[165808]

I am especially interested in the whole CHOC-UCI affiliation

As far as the whole CHOC-UCI affiliation thing....pretty much still the same as above. Two of our interns and a third year are starting the first block there in March. It seems like CHOC has instituted a lot of really nice changes to their system since last interview cycle that will lighten the load on the ward teams, so most of us here at UCI are a little more positive about the affiliation.

Do you have any questions in particular? That may be easier, because I'm not sure what your specific questions are. Between me and the CHOC residents that are on this forum, we should be able to answer your questions.

And, of course, feel free to PM me any questions you have. Really, anything. I promise my candid info and opinions

 

[bjackrian]

There are new posts on several SoCal programs at the SDN Residency Feedback link at the top of the page (at least new since I last looked meaning sometime in November!).

 

[yay4peds]

does anyone know the exact call schedule breakdown for UCI and UCLA?? (wards, PICU, NICU, backup call, cross cover during electives, etc..) Any info would be greatly appreciated! Good luck everyone on getting your first choices!!

 

[165808]

does anyone know the exact call schedule breakdown for UCI and UCLA?? (wards, PICU, NICU, backup call, cross cover during electives, etc..) Any info would be greatly appreciated! Good luck everyone on getting your first choices!!

I can speak for UCI....at least for the intern year schedule. I pulled this off our website and put what sort of call is entailed in parentheses:

--Hematology/Oncology: 1 rotation (mercenary call = 5 calls during block)
--Ambulatory Pediatrics/Urgent Care: 2 rotations (urgent care is back-up call, ambulatory peds at The Children's Clinic is mercenary call)
--Elective: 3 half-rotations (if paired with 2 weeks of vacation, it's call-free; if two electives together in one block, mercenary call)
--Community Pediatrics: 1 half-rotation (same as above; usually call-free paired with vacation, but can be mercenary if paired with an elective)
--Vacation: 2 half-rotations (obviously call-free!!)
--Inpatient Pediatrics: 5 rotations (at Miller's, nightfloat [three blocks usually] one week with one Saturday and one Sunday call; at CHOC [two blocks usually], you're q4)
--Neonatal Intensive Care: 1 rotation (q4 call)
--Term Nursery: 1 rotation (used to be q4 when UCI wards existed, now it's more like mercenary/back-up; unsure what they're going to do with call during this rotation)

Hope that made sense. We're only q4 for three rotations, we have two totally call-free blocks, one back-up, the rest night float or mercenary as above.

 

[yay4peds]

Thanks Jendizzle for your awesome breakdown. Could you clarify what you cover for mercenary call and from what times till what time? Thanks!

 

[twilburys]

does anyone know the exact call schedule breakdown for UCI and UCLA?? (wards, PICU, NICU, backup call, cross cover during electives, etc..) Any info would be greatly appreciated! Good luck everyone on getting your first choices!!

Here's what I remember from my interview day.....The wards at Mattel are Q5, but I think everything else is Q4. Sick call is a point based system, rather than a pay-back system. I don't remember anything about cross covering during electives. It was really hard to keep track of how everything is run at the 4 different sites. Also, it sounded like they were still deciding how to run things over at the Santa Monica site.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Perhaps someone else will chime in......

 

[165808]

Thanks Jendizzle for your awesome breakdown. Could you clarify what you cover for mercenary call and from what times till what time? Thanks!

Sure....mercenary call for now is just at Miller's. You and the night float team are covering all the patients that the ward teams have, along with any hem-onc admits/emergencies. You get there at 5pm, help the day team get out, then when the night team comes at 7pm, you either help admit or do crosscover depending on you and your senior. You do not stay to present in the morning, and are out between 6:30 and 7am (last admit stops at 6:15am, then you wait to signout to the day teams when they arrive).

If you are on Hem-Onc or another Miller's elective, you go there and round and go home usually before noon. If you are on outpatient or term nursery, you go home. The rule of thumb is that if you are on a rotation that is at Miller's and is not outpatient (where all you see are new kids), you stay to round; otherwise, you get a nice post-call day to do as you please

As of now, we do not provide mercenary coverage for CHOC, nor do I anticipate that we'll be doing that next year. When the two programs officially merge, I'm sure some changes will be made.

 

[yay4peds]

Thanks for the helpful info, Jendizzle and Twilbury

 

[waldenwoods]

Here's what I remember from my interview day.....The wards at Mattel are Q5, but I think everything else is Q4. Sick call is a point based system, rather than a pay-back system. I don't remember anything about cross covering during electives. It was really hard to keep track of how everything is run at the 4 different sites. Also, it sounded like they were still deciding how to run things over at the Santa Monica site.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Perhaps someone else will chime in......

I don't know the big picture, either. Hopefully a resident currently at UCLA will be able to elaborate! In the meantime, let me add a little bit to what twilburys wrote.

A resident told me that people on outpatient/elective rotations at Mattel do take call, and that's how they get the 5th person in the call schedule so that the schedule works out to be Q5. Also, during call you handle issues on the floors. For admissions, there is a night team (which is definitely not being "on call" but I believe it may be of interest to yay4peds because you're there all night).

Just a general question--have you stratified programs on your rank list based on the call schedule? I'm curious because I'm mostly set on the order of programs on my rank list, and it never came down to the call schedule.

 

[twilburys]

Just a general question--have you stratified programs on your rank list based on the call schedule? I'm curious because I'm mostly set on the order of programs on my rank list, and it never came down to the call schedule.

So far, I have tried to evaluate programs based on how I felt about the interview day, social event, and the opportunities a program will give me to explore my interests. I'm also factoring in how the program is reputed to treat its residents. However, in the middle of my list I have a chunk of programs that I just can't decide between....so I have resorted to looking at call schedules- but that still isn't helping all that much .

 

[waldenwoods]

Thanks for replying!

I am looking at the way I wrote my last post containing the quote. It looks like I was just asking twilburys; however, I had intended to ask the collective "you"--anyone participating in this year's match. I'd had yay4peds in mind, though, since he or she was the one who originally asked about the call schedules.

I'm also trying to get the middle of my list in the right order. Opportunities to explore interests and how the programs treat residents are two qualities that I also think are important, but it may be difficult to compare them because it seems very subjective. I feel as well, not making any progress.

 

[twilburys]

Thanks for replying!

I am looking at the way I wrote my last post containing the quote. It looks like I was just asking twilburys; however, I had intended to ask the collective "you"--anyone participating in this year's match. I'd had yay4peds in mind, though, since he or she was the one who originally asked about the call schedules.

I took it as a collective "you" when you wrote the question and was hoping other people would reply as well. Maybe they still will.......

BTW: We have 1 week to figure this stuff out, ackkk!

 

[waldenwoods]

I'll be obsessing about it until then. Well, truthfully, I hope I make my mind up sooner.

I think I'll go out that evening so that I cannot make any last-minute changes.

 

[skittles2017]

UCLA: not impressed as I thought I would be with this program. I was there on a sat so maybe it was just a weird day but not many residents wre around to talk to, I hope to make it to their social event to actually meet some of them. Overall, I has everything and good research opportunities but not my favorite so far.