Some real questions for EVERYBODY posting on the Caribbean forum...

[Shinken]

The problem is that the majority of those "foreign-trained" physicians in the US are not US citizens that graduated from Caribbean schools. They're non-US citizens that trained outside the US.

Look at Table 1 of the Charting Outcomes in the Match for International Medical Graduates (from the ACGME website). Generally speaking, although US grads of foreign schools outperform foreign-grads in some specialties (mainly primary care specialties...except IM), the more competitive specialties (including IM) are dominated by non-citizen grads.

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[Skip Intro]

The problem is that the majority of those "foreign-trained" physicians in the US are not US citizens that graduated from Caribbean schools. They're non-US citizens that trained outside the US.

Look at Table 1 of the Charting Outcomes in the Match for International Medical Graduates (from the ACGME website). Generally speaking, although US grads of foreign schools outperform foreign-grads in some specialties (mainly primary care specialties...except IM), the more competitive specialties (including IM) are dominated by non-citizen grads.

I actually said...

Way too much to try to unpack on this thread. Most of it is subjective and opinion. You have to answer your assertions (whatever they are) with data.

So, for now, here's an irrefutable fact:

Roughly 1/4th of all practicing physicians in the U.S. are foreign-trained, and not all of them are "true" IMGs. This is unlikely to change, based on current trends, for the foreseeable future. And, it has certainly been meted out by the Match data over the past several cycles.

-Skip

I didn't say none of them are. You were inferring something else that was not in dispute.

(Okay... guess it's time for more beating of the dead horse...)

There are over two dozen new medical schools and/or campuses in the U.S. conferring either the M.D. or D.O. degree since I attended 2001-2005. How is this bad for the potential student?

That said, the very report you reference says the following:

"Fewer U.S. citizen and non-U.S. citizen students and graduates of international medical schools (IMGs) registered for the Match than in 2017"​

That said...

"Of the 5,075 U.S. IMGs who submitted rank order lists of programs, 2,900 matched to a PGY-1 position for a match rate of 57.1 percent. Of the 7,067 non-U.S citizen IMGs who submitted rank order lists of programs, 3,962 matched to a PGY-1 position for a match rate of 56.1 percent. The PGY-1 match rates for U.S. citizen IMGs and non-U.S. citizen IMGs were the highest since 1993."
​

So, take home messages:

• Fewer U.S. (and non-U.S.) grads registered which, I would argue, is in large part to the 28% increase in U.S. medical school spots since 2002 that again provides more opportunities for "near misses" than in the past - good for applicants, bad for Caribbean schools.
• US IMGs still out-matched non-US IMGs. Yes, there are more applicants - and it's a close call - but both do very well in the match.
• 42.3% of the 2018 matches were USIMG and the match rates were the highest since 1993. There is, and always has been, a larger pool of non-US IMGs vying for those spots, don't miss the bigger picture

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Main-Match-Result-and-Data-2018.pdf​

Like I said, this thread is WAY all over the place. There is too much going on in here to discuss all of it. But, the point was 1/4th of the doctors practicing in the U.S. are foreign-trained, and it's been this way for a long time. Some of them are non-U.S. citizens. But, the opportunity for U.S. citizens to (1) have better chances to go to school in the U.S. because of increasing enrollment and (2) still have a good chance of matching if they go outside of the U.S. are there.

That's the bigger picture.

-Skip

 

[JohnWood15]

Assuming the 66% figure is correct (and for SGU and Ross, I expect it's about right), let's be 100% honest about the outcomes:
Don't go to SGU, 0% chance of being a doctor. Debt is unchanged.
Go to SGU:
66% chance of matching, great career as physician. All is good (ignoring that you might not get the field you fall in love with)
34% chance of not matching. Now you could be an additional 100K+ in debt, and no way to pay it off, and you can't discharge it in bankruptcy. If you had a cosigner, they are just as responsible. If they actually completed all 4 years and then can't match (worst case scenario), they could easily be 400K in debt.

That's the key issue here. If someone has 200K to blow and they want to try medical school, I think everyone here would say it's their choice. The concern is that everyone going to the carib is certain they won't be the one to fail out, and hence is certain the financial risk is reasonable.

I don't think most serious people who post here want to "try medical school out." I think there are enough people who, if given the opportunity, want to COMPLETE medical school. The notion that St. George's at least is soooo difficult and soooo much a gamble is really not warranted. This comes back to the 900 students that matched last week.

I feel that you're talking to every single student that thinks they can cut it as a doctor. I'm not even bringing that group into this discussion. If that group could even make it out of basic sciences, I highly doubt third and fourth year would work in their favor. I'm strictly talking about that group, the group that has all the pieces of the puzzle, but just can't catch a break with admission to a US program. That group should be able to make it at a school like SGU.

I think the important part of my argument is that I am already filtering out those students who should know better that they are just not cut out for medical school. I highly doubt every SGU student has a 3.0 and sub 500 MCAT. I have no sympathy for anyone that just goes to SGU because SGU said they could. I'm talking about that percentage of students who are legitimate pre-med students.

Remember, the GPA to enter medical school in 1980 was a 3.0. I encourage anyone to look at that data. The point of that is you don't need a 3.8 or 518 MCAT to survive a US medical school. I think you would agree with that. So those legitimate pre-med students who just won't get a spot in a US program should absolutely pursue this career if there is another avenue that, as far as I can tell, is legitimate as well.

I think we should try and separate prospective Caribbean students into two different groups and give advice accordingly. That's my point.

 

[JohnWood15]

I want to keep this on track because I see some posters bringing in all types of data which I don't even care about right now for this discussion. This discussion is strictly about SGU, legitimate pre-med students, and the idea that there is a legitimate pathway to becoming a doctor for anyone that can't seem to become a doctor stateside.

I've heard the argument for the past decade that it's getting harder and harder to match for IMG's. That very well might be a valid argument but why are we bunching all IMG's together? This is a Caribbean thread/forum and we all know that not all of those schools are exactly the same, each school accepts a different caliber of student, and each school is connected back to the states in different ways. The SGU student with a 230 is absolutely not in the same boat as some no-name IMG's with 220's. Even an SGU grad with a 220 should be able to secure at least a few interviews somewhere in FM. We can't say that about some of these other schools. So why don't the IMG's from the no-name programs with lower scores worry about the fear of succeeding and let's be real and let other students who were smart or privileged to pick SGU worry a little less about that and more about getting into the top half of their class where they will most probably succeed somewhere.

I don't think people should be giving advice on success to students who are really looking at this path as an option when those people know very little about who is matching from a school like SGU and where they are matching. If you're program doesn't look at IMG's, that's fine but what exactly is the point?

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

I want to keep this on track because I see some posters bringing in all types of data which I don't even care about right now for this discussion. This discussion is strictly about SGU, legitimate pre-med students, and the idea that there is a legitimate pathway to becoming a doctor for anyone that can't seem to become a doctor stateside.

I've heard the argument for the past decade that it's getting harder and harder to match for IMG's. That very well might be a valid argument but why are we bunching all IMG's together? This is a Caribbean thread/forum and we all know that not all of those schools are exactly the same, each school accepts a different caliber of student, and each school is connected back to the states in different ways. The SGU student with a 230 is absolutely not in the same boat as some no-name IMG's with 220's. Even an SGU grad with a 220 should be able to secure at least a few interviews somewhere in FM. We can't say that about some of these other schools. So why don't the IMG's from the no-name programs with lower scores worry about the fear of succeeding and let's be real and let other students who were smart or privileged to pick SGU worry a little less about that and more about getting into the top half of their class where they will most probably succeed somewhere.

I don't think people should be giving advice on success to students who are really looking at this path as an option when those people know very little about who is matching from a school like SGU and where they are matching. If you're program doesn't look at IMG's, that's fine but what exactly is the point?

I am still not sure whether or not you are someone who is just trying to start yet another debate about Caribbean medical schools, or if you are someone who is actively considering taking this route (in which case it seems like you are likely just looking for reassurance). Do not delude yourself which the notion that there are students in the Caribbean who are not trying to succeed and that some are "better" than others. Every single person is there because they did not have the academic credentials to get into a stateside school. You can also rest assured that every person at SGU or any Caribbean school for that matter is giving it their all. No sane person would move to a foreign country and risk taking on all that debt if this was not the case. Still, many people still do end up dropping/failing out each term. While this is partly due to a overall lower quality student that attends such an institution, it is likely also due to a significant lack of resources. Put it this way, it you struggle at a US MD or DO program, your school will basically shepherd you through whatever difficulties you are facing to ensure that you graduate and match on time. At a Caribbean school they will completely cut you off if you fail to meet whatever mark they feel like setting. While every student who heads to the tropics thinks that they will be at the top of their class, it is really hard to predict where you will stand. I have seen students with terrible undergraduate credentials excel, and others with higher GPAs/MCATs fail and repeat several terms. SGU is still a offshore school no matter how many people try to put in on a pedestal. It was founded/exists under the same for-profit marketing principles that every other medical school in the Caribbean that caters to Americans operates under. If you do make it down to Grenada and see what your education is like for the first two years, it should be no surprise why most programs do not consider its graduates. The whole curriculum is basically just a 2 year step 1 review class and those of us heading to clinicals this fall undoubtably have a subpar working knowledge of the material compared to our stateside counterparts. If this is something you really want to do, you need to approach this as pragmatically as possible.

 

[JohnWood15]

I am still not sure whether or not you are someone who is just trying to start yet another debate about Caribbean medical schools, or if you are someone who is actively considering taking this route (in which case it seems like you are likely just looking for reassurance). Do not delude yourself which the notion that there are students in the Caribbean who are not trying to succeed and that some are "better" than others. Every single person is there because they did not have the academic credentials to get into a stateside school. You can also rest assured that every person at SGU or any Caribbean school for that matter is giving it their all. No sane person would move to a foreign country and risk taking on all that debt if this was not the case. Still, many people still do end up dropping/failing out each term. While this is partly due to a overall lower quality student that attends such an institution, it is likely also due to a significant lack of resources. Put it this way, it you struggle at a US MD or DO program, your school will basically shepherd you through whatever difficulties you are facing to ensure that you graduate and match on time. At a Caribbean school they will completely cut you off if you fail to meet whatever mark they feel like setting. While every student who heads to the tropics thinks that they will be at the top of their class, it is really hard to predict where you will stand. I have seen students with terrible undergraduate credentials excel, and others with higher GPAs/MCATs fail and repeat several terms. SGU is still a offshore school no matter how many people try to put in on a pedestal. It was founded/exists under the same for-profit marketing principles that every other medical school in the Caribbean that caters to Americans operates under. If you do make it down to Grenada and see what your education is like for the first two years, it should be no surprise why most programs do not consider its graduates. The whole curriculum is basically just a 2 year step 1 review class and those of us heading to clinicals this fall undoubtably have a subpar working knowledge of the material compared to our stateside counterparts. If this is something you really want to do, you need to approach this as pragmatically as possible.

I appreciate you trying to contribute but you have admitted that you completed basic sciences and you are in "good shape." You might have second thoughts about your decision to attend SGU but don't assume that's how every prospective student will feel as well.

I don't think it's also fair to say that all of your classmates at SGU are US rejects due to academics. You don't even know that so you can't assume that. There very well might be a good number of students there that DO HAVE THE NUMBERS but lack a good reason as to why they want to become doctors in the first place.

You're also comparing US and All Caribbean programs and all you really have experience with is SGU. Right?

The discussion was not about what SGU was like, the discussion was about why you have 900 people matching from SGU and why that has been rather consistent. That deserves an explanation and that's not what is talked about on this forum.

My question to you is why would you continue with SGU if you obviously are not happy with their product?

 

[JohnWood15]

you are likely just looking for reassurance).

If every pre-med student did not need "reassurance," there would be no SDN. So I don't think it's that.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

I appreciate you trying to contribute but you have admitted that you completed basic sciences and you are in "good shape." You might have second thoughts about your decision to attend SGU but don't assume that's how every prospective student will feel as well.

I don't think it's also fair to say that all of your classmates at SGU are US rejects due to academics. You don't even know that so you can't assume that. There very well might be a good number of students there that DO HAVE THE NUMBERS but lack a good reason as to why they want to become doctors in the first place.

You're also comparing US and All Caribbean programs and all you really have experience with is SGU. Right?

The discussion was not about what SGU was like, the discussion was about why you have 900 people matching from SGU and why that has been rather consistent. That deserves an explanation and that's not what is talked about on this forum.

My question to you is why would you continue with SGU if you obviously are not happy with their product?

You are correct in saying that I only have personal experience at one school. I can tell you though that I too did my research both before and during the basic sciences and these are the conclusions I have drawn. You may be correct in saying that there are other reasons why someone could end up in the Caribbean aside from academics but they aren't exactly good ones (think MAJOR red flags such as cheating, criminal record, absolutely no understanding of admissions process/profession, ect). To answer your question, I'll continue with SGU because I have already spent two miserable years living in a place I absolutely despised and am (possibly) less than 2 years away from putting this terrible chapter of my life behind me. At the stage I am at, it doesn't make any sense to do anything else. But since the main goal of this thread (and just about all other ones on this topic) seem to be focused towards premeds who have yet to begin medical school, I stand by the advice I gave earlier in that it is best to stay in this country for your training. You will have a better life/future and will be able to match into the specialty you actually want to practice.

 

[JohnWood15]

You are correct in saying that I only have personal experience at one school. I can tell you though that I too did my research both before and during the basic sciences and these are the conclusions I have drawn. You may be correct in saying that there are other reasons why someone could end up in the Caribbean aside from academics but they aren't exactly good ones (think MAJOR red flags such as cheating, criminal record, absolutely no understanding of admissions process/profession, ect). To answer your question, I'll continue with SGU because I have already spent two miserable years living in a place I absolutely despised and am (possibly) less than 2 years away from putting this terrible chapter of my life behind me. At the stage I am at, it doesn't make any sense to do anything else. But since the main goal of this thread (and just about all other ones on this topic) seem to be focused towards premeds who have yet to begin medical school, I stand by the advice I gave earlier in that it is best to stay in this country for your training. You will have a better life/future and will be able to match into the specialty you actually want to practice.

I can understand that going to the Caribbean, be it SGU or any other place, may not be ideal for just every student but I feel like you also are doing a disservice for prospective students because there are some people that could actually care less about the island life or even SGU's curriculum. Those are your opinions and you cannot speak for everyone. Case in point, you said Grenada is a third world country but that's not true. Post a few pictures of the campus here, let us decide if those are third-world conditions. Now if you're comparing Grenada to the US, then sure; it's different but I find it hard to believe that you are walking over there amongst filth or starving.

And again, maybe you should comment after two more years because I just find it hard to believe that you'll graduate with a sad face.

I'm still waiting for some people to explain why the school is producing 900 graduates per year and why that is an opportunity that should be avoided. And no, that's not playing the lottery.

 

[mcat_taker]

I appreciate you trying to contribute but you have admitted that you completed basic sciences and you are in "good shape." You might have second thoughts about your decision to attend SGU but don't assume that's how every prospective student will feel as well.

I don't think it's also fair to say that all of your classmates at SGU are US rejects due to academics. You don't even know that so you can't assume that. There very well might be a good number of students there that DO HAVE THE NUMBERS but lack a good reason as to why they want to become doctors in the first place.

You're also comparing US and All Caribbean programs and all you really have experience with is SGU. Right?

The discussion was not about what SGU was like, the discussion was about why you have 900 people matching from SGU and why that has been rather consistent. That deserves an explanation and that's not what is talked about on this forum.

My question to you is why would you continue with SGU if you obviously are not happy with their product?

You are 100 percent looking for reassurance in going. And you have literally deflected everything away from yourself in trying to talk about the Caribbean in some abstract manner without actually asking anything or mentioning your own personal situation in going but creating dozens of responses in this thread from lots of well respected posters. You also have a student here responding to you who is probably THE BEST POSSIBLE person to talk to in @Small Cell Carcinoma -- a current student who is successfully getting through the curriculum but has real reservations about recommending it to you. He is up to date on the school and he isn't someone who failed out who might have bias and an ax to grind. Yet you've already dismissed him twice.

You keep bringing this 900 MDs number up in looking for reassurance and you keep asking why-- yes DUH when you have a massive medical school with thousands of students there will be a lot of graduates pumped out by nature of that. Yes everyone knows you can become a legitimate licensed doctor by going there. We all know caribbean graduates. You still don't know the denominator. Why is this so difficult for you to understand.

And yes you can probably safely assume that no one at SGU had a U.S. acceptance in their hand. Thinking they chose SGU for some other reason is just false. And then you are looking down at other no name medical schools because those students were "not as smart" or "privileged enough" to get into SGU whatever that means or whatever a "legitimate premed student" is to you in your other rant. I know plenty of no name Caribbean medical graduates in residency too I'm not sure how you managed to become an expert on which IMGs should be worried about matching and which ones shouldn't.

No one is lumping SGU with every other fly by night medical school in the Caribbean so I'm not sure why you are trying to differentiate it for all of us then and defending it. Going to a big 4 is well established as the best route if one has to go to the Caribbean.

 

[deleted480308]

I can understand that going to the Caribbean, be it SGU or any other place, may not be ideal for just every student but I feel like you also are doing a disservice for prospective students because there are some people that could actually care less about the island life or even SGU's curriculum. Those are your opinions and you cannot speak for everyone. Case in point, you said Grenada is a third world country but that's not true. Post a few pictures of the campus here, let us decide if those are third-world conditions. Now if you're comparing Grenada to the US, then sure; it's different but I find it hard to believe that you are walking over there amongst filth or starving.

And again, maybe you should comment after two more years because I just find it hard to believe that you'll graduate with a sad face.

I'm still waiting for some people to explain why the school is producing 900 graduates per year and why that is an opportunity that should be avoided. And no, that's not playing the lottery.

lottery:
1:1,000,000 you make millions
999,999:1,000,000 you lose $1

SGU:
60:100 you match in the US and get at least a year of residency in and can get a license in most states
40:100 you have no residency, can't work in the states as a doctor and are $100k-400k in debt depending on when you washed out

you are correct that it is not the lottery. 900 people had a great year this year, but ~800ish (math in my head might be off a tad) did not get to that celebratory day and all they have to show for their efforts is debt. Everyone assumes they will be the 900 residents, it's important remember the group of almost the same size that didn't make it

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

I can understand that going to the Caribbean, be it SGU or any other place, may not be ideal for just every student but I feel like you also are doing a disservice for prospective students because there are some people that could actually care less about the island life or even SGU's curriculum. Those are your opinions and you cannot speak for everyone. Case in point, you said Grenada is a third world country but that's not true. Post a few pictures of the campus here, let us decide if those are third-world conditions. Now if you're comparing Grenada to the US, then sure; it's different but I find it hard to believe that you are walking over there amongst filth or starving.

And again, maybe you should comment after two more years because I just find it hard to believe that you'll graduate with a sad face.

I'm still waiting for some people to explain why the school is producing 900 graduates per year and why that is an opportunity that should be avoided. And no, that's not playing the lottery.

Well I really have to disagree with you there. Sure the campus may be barely tolerable on the few days when all facilities are actually working, but when they kick you off campus after you first year because you didn't win the housing "lottery" you will be commuting from some shack in the middle of nowhere with the rest of the locals. Roughly 70% of the population lives below the poverty line and roughly half of all people are unemployed. Going to KFC is considered a special occasion by most people and owning a car is rare luxury. The island is also quite dangerous as drugs and crime are a very serious problem. I myself got attacked and robbed by some panhandling drug addict in my second term because I refused to give him any money. Does this sound third world enough for you? I too thought that I wouldn't be bothered by the environment and would "care less" about where I was living. Believe me, after the first couple of weeks, the brutal heat, lack of convenience, and overwhelming isolation begins to take its toll.

 

[JohnWood15]

lottery:
1:1,000,000 you make millions
999,999:1,000,000 you lose $1

SGU:
60:100 you match in the US and get at least a year of residency in and can get a license in most states
40:100 you have no residency, can't work in the states as a doctor and are $100k-400k in debt depending on when you washed out

you are correct that it is not the lottery. 900 people had a great year this year, but ~800ish (math in my head might be off a tad) did not get to that celebratory day and all they have to show for their efforts is debt. Everyone assumes they will be the 900 residents, it's important remember the group of almost the same size that didn't make it

I don't think you're understanding. I could care less about those who didn't make it. I'm asking you why 900 ARE MAKING IT. It's a for-profit school, I would assume most people know that "for-profit" means "screw you." Ever heard of a private vs. for-profit hospital? Same thing here.

You guys keep bringing up this debt number and again you don't explain or elaborate on the various scenarios. The med school debt whether you succeed or don't succeed is through federal loans for US students that choose to take that route. You can get federal loans discharged, forgiven, and even written off over time...you do agree with that right? Do you think an SGU student who doesn't match goes back home and sits on their thumbs for the rest of their lives lol? That's how you make it out to be. They most probably get back up and go do something else and I guarantee you it's not working at the Golden Arches. So, let's be more realistic and less dramatic with these types of issues. Nobody is going to the poor house by going to SGU or any of these schools unless you do something totally against the norm like pass STEP 1 and then deliberately fail STEP 2 or show up drunk to an interview.

Are you saying you would be pro-Caribbean if they had a 100% pass rate then? That's like saying you won't like the world until there is world peace.

900 graduate and that's on paper. My argument is we should focus more on getting the right student into one of those spots instead of telling them to keep applying stateside when the odds are actually more stacked against them. Nobody is telling anyone to pick SGU as their absolute first choice of medical school.

 

[JohnWood15]

Well I really have to disagree with you there. Sure the campus may be barely tolerable on the few days when all facilities are actually working, but when they kick you off campus after you first year because you didn't win the housing "lottery" you will be commuting from some shack in the middle of nowhere with the rest of the locals. Roughly 70% of the population lives below the poverty line and roughly half of all people are unemployed. Going to KFC is considered a special occasion by most people and owning a car is rare luxury. The island is also quite dangerous as drugs and crime are a very serious problem. I myself got attacked and robbed by some panhandling drug addict in my second term because I refused to give him any money. Does this sound third world enough for you? I too thought that I wouldn't be bothered by the environment and would "care less" about where I was living. Believe me, after the first couple of weeks, the brutal heat, lack of convenience, and overwhelming isolation begins to take its toll.

That's a subjective assessment. That's the equivalent of me telling someone to avoid the University of Rochester because it's too cold and someone stole my lunch money. Those are not reasons to not attend a school.

BTW, why am I supposed to care if Grenadians live below the poverty line or if they prefer KFC? I'm missing your point. I would be going there to study medicine, not socialize with the locals.

 

[deleted480308]

I don't think you're understanding. I could care less about those who didn't make it. I'm asking you why 900 ARE MAKING IT. It's a for-profit school, I would assume most people know that "for-profit" means "screw you." Ever heard of a private vs. for-profit hospital? Same thing here.

You guys keep bringing up this debt number and again you don't explain or elaborate on the various scenarios. The med school debt whether you succeed or don't succeed is through federal loans for US students that choose to take that route. You can get federal loans discharged, forgiven, and even written off over time...you do agree with that right? Do you think an SGU student who doesn't match goes back home and sits on their thumbs for the rest of their lives lol? That's how you make it out to be. They most probably get back up and go do something else and I guarantee you it's not working at the Golden Arches. So, let's be more realistic and less dramatic with these types of issues. Nobody is going to the poor house by going to SGU or any of these schools unless you do something totally against the norm like pass STEP 1 and then deliberately fail STEP 2 or show up drunk to an interview.

Are you saying you would be pro-Caribbean if they had a 100% pass rate then? That's like saying you won't like the world until there is world peace.

900 graduate and that's on paper. My argument is we should focus more on getting the right student into one of those spots instead of telling them to keep applying stateside when the odds are actually more stacked against them. Nobody is telling anyone to pick SGU as their absolute first choice of medical school.

"we" don't need to focus on anything. You look at the deal your way, I'll continue with mine until I see a better argument.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

That's a subjective assessment. That's the equivalent of me telling someone to avoid the University of Rochester because it's too cold and someone stole my lunch money. Those are not reasons to not attend a school.

BTW, why am I supposed to care if Grenadians live below the poverty line or if they prefer KFC? I'm missing your point. I would be going there to study medicine, not socialize with the locals.

First, @Small Cell Carcinoma is probably the best expert we have on this forum, many of the "experts" are like a few years out of the school and match and honestly it changes a lot in just a few years so their info may not be as current no matter where they work or what they do, unless they're a program director.

As for this quote, I have several friends who went to SGU, I chose to stay in the US and go to med school. I will be honest, the one thing they all kept telling me was.....you survive the island and you're ok. That is the goal, survive the first 2 years, pass the USMLE and head into rotations. You may think living conditions and other things like that don't matter but I'm sure a good percentage of people will say they retain more info in a comfortable setting not in a setting where there is a risk for theft, no basic amenities that Americans take for granted, and so on.

If you're looking for reassurance, SGU will make you a doctor, how good of one I can't say, as for me, I work with facts available and the fact that I am unable to find the incoming numbers each year compared to the residents that come out of that same year 4 years later worries me. It is easy to say "oh they take 500 kids in August" and quite another to see the proof and then see the results 4 years later from that individual class (NOT THE NRMP DATA LUMPING IT ALL TOGETHER). Just remember those 900 matched students, 100 could be from last years class and still 100 from two years ago, we just don't know. Experts on here will say otherwise but I have my doubts as everyone has some natural bias to the path they chose.

Bottom line: We are fortunate enough to have some actual students here, reach out, don't trust only the info you want to read/hear.....read and absorb it all.....good luck

 

[JohnWood15]

"we" don't need to focus on anything. You look at the deal your way, I'll continue with mine until I see a better argument.

lol, you do that then. But I have a feeling you have made up your mind regardless.

 

[JohnWood15]

First, @Small Cell Carcinoma is probably the best expert we have on this forum, many of the "experts" are like a few years out of the school and match and honestly it changes a lot in just a few years so their info may not be as current no matter where they work or what they do, unless they're a program director.

As for this quote, I have several friends who went to SGU, I chose to stay in the US and go to med school. I will be honest, the one thing they all kept telling me was.....you survive the island and you're ok. That is the goal, survive the first 2 years, pass the USMLE and head into rotations. You may think living conditions and other things like that don't matter but I'm sure a good percentage of people will say they retain more info in a comfortable setting not in a setting where there is a risk for theft, no basic amenities that Americans take for granted, and so on.

If you're looking for reassurance, SGU will make you a doctor, how good of one I can't say, as for me, I work with facts available and the fact that I am unable to find the incoming numbers each year compared to the residents that come out of that same year 4 years later worries me. It is easy to say "oh they take 500 kids in August" and quite another to see the proof and then see the results 4 years later from that individual class (NOT THE NRMP DATA LUMPING IT ALL TOGETHER). Just remember those 900 matched students, 100 could be from last years class and still 100 from two years ago, we just don't know. Experts on here will say otherwise but I have my doubts as everyone has some natural bias to the path they chose.

Bottom line: We are fortunate enough to have some actual students here, reach out, don't trust only the info you want to read/hear.....read and absorb it all.....good luck

I think we're splitting hairs here on this subject. This is not about me, it's not about you, it's not about anybody actually. This is about this particular pathway and becoming an MD. I'm trying to keep this thread grounded despite others trying to take it off the rails. I personally don't need anyone's advice. I'm capable of making my own decisions. I could decide to apply to SGU, I could apply stateside, or I can even be happy down the PA route. Your opinions would not influence my final decision. That's not the point however.

The point is that there very well may be some student on this site that is actually a great candidate for SGU but most of the people here are offering biased advice, anecdotal advice, wrong advice, and/or don't even know what they are talking about. How is that fair to anyone?

900 is 900 man, you can try to explain that any which way you want but those are 900 individual people who matched. That could be anyone.

And no, current students are not the best source of advice as is the case with the poster above who is more worried about where the Grenadians are getting their dinner from. I was looking for advice from the program directors and SGU grads but interestingly those posters have been somewhat mum on this issue.

The discussion is still open if you want to chime in. I'm interested to hear their input.

 

[mcat_taker]

I think we're splitting hairs here on this subject. This is not about me, it's not about you, it's not about anybody actually. This is about this particular pathway and becoming an MD. I'm trying to keep this thread grounded despite others trying to take it off the rails. I personally don't need anyone's advice. I'm capable of making my own decisions. I could decide to apply to SGU, I could apply stateside, or I can even be happy down the PA route. Your opinions would not influence my final decision. That's not the point however.

The point is that there very well may be some student on this site that is actually a great candidate for SGU but most of the people here are offering biased advice, anecdotal advice, wrong advice, and/or don't even know what they are talking about. How is that fair to anyone?

900 is 900 man, you can try to explain that any which way you want but those are 900 individual people who matched. That could be anyone.

And no, current students are not the best source of advice as is the case with the poster above who is more worried about where the Grenadians are getting their dinner from. I was looking for advice from the program directors and SGU grads but interestingly those posters have been somewhat mum on this issue.

The discussion is still open if you want to chime in. I'm interested to hear their input.

Lol at you being tough and "not needing anyone's advice". You created this thread for one reason only. Then you proceeded to disagree with @Small Cell Carcinoma , who actually lives in Grenada, on what the living situation is actually like and how it doesn't affect your ability to study medicine despite you never setting foot down there. We know you're an expert because you've studied the shiny brochures from SGU showing off the campus. Enjoy your time in Grenada.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You seem to have interpreted my summary in a negative light. That's not what I am intending at all.

You keep mentioning the 900 matches from SGU every year, and asking for some sort of explanation. The explanation is easy -- those people passed everything, graduated, and matched. They are very likely to be successful physicians in the US. This is good for everyone -- the people who matched, the programs they matched to, and the patients they will ultimately treat. I'm not certain what you're looking for as an explanation. SGU and Ross (and some others) are not a "scam", they actually generate a large number of successful graduates. Going to SGU is not a mistake. Lots of people (apparently 70%) do just fine.

The "problem", if you see it that way, is the 30% who don't graduate or match. You mentioned:

I think the important part of my argument is that I am already filtering out those students who should know better that they are just not cut out for medical school.

This is the tough part. If we could tell whom would be successful and whom not up front, then this decision would be much easier. But I don't think this is as easy as you think. And, if it really was that easy to tell whom would be successful, and SGU was admitting people that it was certain would fail, that says something pretty terrible about their business model. My take is that it's not so easy to tell who will do well and who will not, so they accept their class and let those that can't make it fail out. As I mentioned, whether you see this as "giving everyone a fair shot" or "exploiting the dreams of naive college grads" depends upon your world view. The truth is probably somewhere in between the two extremes.

You guys keep bringing up this debt number and again you don't explain or elaborate on the various scenarios. The med school debt whether you succeed or don't succeed is through federal loans for US students that choose to take that route. You can get federal loans discharged, forgiven, and even written off over time...you do agree with that right? Do you think an SGU student who doesn't match goes back home and sits on their thumbs for the rest of their lives lol? That's how you make it out to be. They most probably get back up and go do something else and I guarantee you it's not working at the Golden Arches. So, let's be more realistic and less dramatic with these types of issues. Nobody is going to the poor house by going to SGU or any of these schools unless you do something totally against the norm like pass STEP 1 and then deliberately fail STEP 2 or show up drunk to an interview.

This is somewhat oversimplified. Yes, no one goes to the "poor house" anymore. You can get your fed loans discharged, but that takes at least 10 years to do. During that time you'll be making some sort of income based repayment, so the payments should not be catastrophic. But it's a huge hit to your life plan, and can be hard to recover from both financially and emotionally. Students who fail/drop out of medical school can try to rebuild their careers on the basis of their undergraduate degree. And unfortunately some number of SGU students fail to get fed loans and then get a cosigner, who becomes liable for the debt. Sure, these are the people you're referring to who probably shouldn't go in the first place, but as I mentioned earlier it's hard to determine that in advance. I'm sure that some people who require cosigners for loans do just fine and everything works out OK.

Last, some of us get upset that a school like SGU can fail 30% of their students, keep their federal tuition dollars. If the debt is "forgiven", that just means that you and I are paying for it. That makes me angry.

 

[JohnWood15]

You may be correct in saying that there are other reasons why someone could end up in the Caribbean aside from academics but they aren't exactly good ones (think MAJOR red flags such as cheating, criminal record, absolutely no understanding of admissions process/profession, ect).

That's a rather big accusation. If you have some real data to back that up, I personally would love to see it. I just feel like it's easy to say something like that since you are already trying to portray that environment in a negative way. I have heard of FACULTY who have sketchy pasts who teach at some of these Caribbean schools but I don't think I would say students with the same type of pasts end up at these schools. Again, send me your data.

I stand by the advice I gave earlier in that it is best to stay in this country for your training. You will have a better life/future and will be able to match into the specialty you actually want to practice.

This really makes no sense. So you only figured out recently that you would not be able to match into the specialty of your choice? You didn't know that going in to SGU? And what do you mean by "have a better life?" That again, is subjective. And again, this coming from someone who has admitted that they made it through basic sciences. So you are succeeding but finding a way to not enjoy your success? Maybe you should take a term off.

 

[JohnWood15]

You seem to have interpreted my summary in a negative light. That's not what I am intending at all.

You keep mentioning the 900 matches from SGU every year, and asking for some sort of explanation. The explanation is easy -- those people passed everything, graduated, and matched. They are very likely to be successful physicians in the US. This is good for everyone -- the people who matched, the programs they matched to, and the patients they will ultimately treat. I'm not certain what you're looking for as an explanation. SGU and Ross (and some others) are not a "scam", they actually generate a large number of successful graduates. Going to SGU is not a mistake. Lots of people (apparently 70%) do just fine.

The "problem", if you see it that way, is the 30% who don't graduate or match. You mentioned:



This is the tough part. If we could tell whom would be successful and whom not up front, then this decision would be much easier. But I don't think this is as easy as you think. And, if it really was that easy to tell whom would be successful, and SGU was admitting people that it was certain would fail, that says something pretty terrible about their business model. My take is that it's not so easy to tell who will do well and who will not, so they accept their class and let those that can't make it fail out. As I mentioned, whether you see this as "giving everyone a fair shot" or "exploiting the dreams of naive college grads" depends upon your world view. The truth is probably somewhere in between the two extremes.



This is somewhat oversimplified. Yes, no one goes to the "poor house" anymore. You can get your fed loans discharged, but that takes at least 10 years to do. During that time you'll be making some sort of income based repayment, so the payments should not be catastrophic. But it's a huge hit to your life plan, and can be hard to recover from both financially and emotionally. Students who fail/drop out of medical school can try to rebuild their careers on the basis of their undergraduate degree. And unfortunately some number of SGU students fail to get fed loans and then get a cosigner, who becomes liable for the debt. Sure, these are the people you're referring to who probably shouldn't go in the first place, but as I mentioned earlier it's hard to determine that in advance. I'm sure that some people who require cosigners for loans do just fine and everything works out OK.

Last, some of us get upset that a school like SGU can fail 30% of their students, keep their federal tuition dollars. If the debt is "forgiven", that just means that you and I are paying for it. That makes me angry.

I'm satisfied with this response. Now you know why I was waiting for you to respond lol.

My outlook on this issue is this. This whole world is corrupt, everything is about what you can do, how much money you have, and what you can do for "me." And yes, I am not looking at the 30%. They took the risk, they didn't make it, it's their problem and life goes on. I promise you they will not end up on the streets because of SGU and if anything that experience will light a fire inside of them. I agree that preying on a certain demographic of students is not ethical but that's just life. That's really no different than the US graduate who overbills you for their services just because they are a US grad who has a thriving practice. I would say that is wrong as well; but that's life too.

I do see where you are coming from and the difference with where I am coming from certainly comes down to world view as well as accountability. I don't think anybody is forced to go to SGU. I think you have to research that option and I honestly believe this site is one of the best places to go to get information from others who have gone down that path. So when I keep seeing advice that I know is wrong, I wanted to get some clarity and to help others see that it most certainly is not a dead end but it's also not something they should take very lightly. The right person will succeed at SGU and I hope that person is allowed to make that decision knowing all the facts minus the bias. That's all. I keep bringing up the 900 because that should motivate someone who wants this really bad and maybe SGU is their final lifeline.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

That's a rather big accusation. If you have some real data to back that up, I personally would love to see it. I just feel like it's easy to say something like that since you are already trying to portray that environment in a negative way. I have heard of FACULTY who have sketchy pasts who teach at some of these Caribbean schools but I don't think I would say students with the same type of pasts end up at these schools. Again, send me your data.



This really makes no sense. So you only figured out recently that you would not be able to match into the specialty of your choice? You didn't know that going in to SGU? And what do you mean by "have a better life?" That again, is subjective. And again, this coming from someone who has admitted that they made it through basic sciences. So you are succeeding but finding a way to not enjoy your success? Maybe you should take a term off.

You don't know what you are interested in going into before you start medical school. I myself became interested in urology early on, but quickly realized this field is completely out of reach to IMGs regardless of board scores. You may say that you have no problem with going into FM, IM, psych, ect but that may quickly change once you actually start learning about medicine. Only thing is that if you go to the Caribbean and find yourself interested in a competitive specialty, it will be too late for you. As for having a better life, I mean that you will not have to get up everyday with a debilitating feeling of uncertainty as to what your future holds in this career if you stay in the US.

 

[JohnWood15]

You don't know what you are interested in going into before you start medical school. I myself became interested in urology early on, but quickly realized this field is completely out of reach to IMGs regardless of board scores. You may say that you have no problem with going into FM, IM, psych, ect but that may quickly change once you actually start learning about medicine. Only thing is that if you go to the Caribbean and find yourself interested in a competitive specialty, it will be too late for you. As for having a better life, I mean that you will not have to get up everyday with a debilitating feeling of uncertainty as to what your future holds in this career.

If you went into SGU thinking you were coming out going into urology, you have no business giving ANY advice on this topic...not even about Grenadians and their dinner choices. And I'm not being funny.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

If you went into SGU thinking you were coming out going into urology, you have no business giving ANY advice on this topic...not even about Grenadians and their dinner choices. And I'm not being funny.

I give up........... Clearly with anything I try to tell you on this issue you are just going to either ignore or take it completely out of context. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do and like I said, you are more than welcome to PM anytime with questions about this school if you do seriously consider attending.

 

[premedbrah]

This is the Caribbean thread to end all Caribbean threads

*queue Duel of the Fates*

 

[JohnWood15]

I give up........... Clearly with anything I try to tell you on this issue you are just going to either ignore or take it completely out of context. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do and like I said, you are more than welcome to PM anytime with questions about this school if you do seriously consider attending.

Yeah, I might PM you maybe if I put in the application.

I wasn't trying to offend you with that last post. I just don't understand why anyone would think you could go to SGU and come out as anything other than a primary care doc or prelim surgery? They have a match list dating back like a decade that is rather consistent with the idea that you will most probably end up in primary care and or get the prelim surg spot. There's a few anesthesia, EM, and rads mixed in there for some flavor but I would say those are still not the norm even at SGU. I don't even need to attend there to understand that, it's on the website for all to see.

 

[Domperidone]

Yeah, I might PM you maybe if I put in the application.

I wasn't trying to offend you with that last post. I just don't understand why anyone would think you could go to SGU and come out as anything other than a primary care doc or prelim surgery? They have a match list dating back like a decade that is rather consistent with the idea that you will most probably end up in primary care and or get the prelim surg spot. There's a fenmw anesthesia, EM, and rads mixed in there for some flavor but I would say those are still not the norm even at SGU. I don't even need to attend there to understand that, it's on the website for all to see.

They're also saying that maybe you thought you could do FM or IM etc. That you knew the risks. As premed it's easy to go I just want to be a doctor. You've never actually experienced anything yet. But what could happen is that when you rotate you may realize FM etc is not for you or you're suited for it. Reality of working in medicine is different.


Maybe you'll be the lucky minority that does something competitive. But there's no guarantee of that. Not for anyone.

If you went into SGU thinking you were coming out going into urology, you have no business giving ANY advice on this topic...not even about Grenadians and their dinner choices. And I'm not being funny.

This is harsh. Unnecessarily.
If you're wanting to change the tone of a forum, try to be nicer to posters taking time out to try to talk to you. not hurtful.

 

[Skip Intro]

This thread has turned into a "convince me I'm wrong" circle-jerk. #out

-Skip

 

[JohnWood15]

Way too much to try to unpack on this thread. Most of it is subjective and opinion.

Like I said, this thread is WAY all over the place. There is too much going on in here to discuss all of it.

This thread has turned into...

This was not a "thread critique" Skip. It's actually a real thread with a real question.

 

[JohnWood15]

This is harsh. Unnecessarily.

No, that's actually being very up front and very real.

 

[JohnWood15]

They're also saying that maybe you thought you could do FM or IM etc. That you knew the risks. As premed it's easy to go I just want to be a doctor. You've never actually experienced anything yet. But what could happen is that when you rotate you may realize FM etc is not for you or you're suited for it. Reality of working in medicine is different.

I'm not too sure that you're familiar with the IMG route or if you have spoken with many IMG's at your program but the student that matches into Ortho, Neuro, Urology, and Derm is incredibly RARE. That is not something to aim for if you go to any one of these schools. Before you post again, I would encourage you to research the Caribbean match list at the top two or three schools and then the match list of some lesser schools.

If someone comes up to me and says they are going to SGU do "become a dermatologist" I will stop talking to that person because I know that person does not know what they are talking about.

And that's kinda how you sound right now TBH.

 

[Domperidone]

No, that's actually being very up front and very real.

No it is not. It was mean. You're mocking them when they were trying to help you and you are correct about one thing - it's not funny. There is no justification for this. I don't care what you think you're doing.

Okay...
I really shouldn't have participated in this thread or tagged anyone.
Crystal clear to me now, probably should have been from the first. My apologies for the tagging earlier, to everyone I tagged on OP's behalf, truly, I'm very much regretting this now.

This has definitely gone too far.
Feel free to respond OP. I'm just not going to read it.

Good luck in the Caribbean.
Or not. Can't tell if you're actually applying or trolling. At this rate I would say troll, well played. I can't believe I thought I was helping out a premed. Then again, it's the internet. Hell if I know what I'm doing.

 

[Shinken]

This is so entertaining, and the whole reason why I frequent this forum (seedy bar, indeed).

So many people here get their undergarments in a bunch (yes, including myself!). Perhaps Skip should try to engage in a decent argument instead of trying to nitpick every single word. There's nothing anyone can post in this forum that he won't nitpick and complain about, unless you're agreeing with him.

However, as entertaining as this forum is, it's also extremely frustrating. It angers me to see so many young kids fall for the Carib marketing trap, and see posters in here that were lucky to have made it actually recommend the Carib to them. It's almost bordering on unethical or immoral.

I really shouldn't care at all. I graduated from a US DO med school, and I'm doing quite well as a primary care physician and program director for an ACGME residency program. Yet, because for some stupid reason I do care, this forum really bothers me sometimes.

 

[Mikkus]

I was reading through these threads and well, I have some questions...
...

St. George's University recently graduated 900 or so MD's a few days ago. I'm just curious how some of you guys come up with an explanation for that. You obviously don't know those 900 graduates on a personal level let alone know anything about their stats or the PD's that gave them the green light so who's to say some prospective student cannot one day be in that cohort if some cohort of Caribbean medical students is obviously succeeding?

Some students are succeeding. I was one of them. But many did not. I would not be comfortable recommending carib to an incoming student will a 40% chance of them not graduating or matching. Also take into account the prelim matches are most likely dead ends.



I think a lot of the successful grads don't want to touch this post with a 10 foot pole. Why would we waste our time arguing if the cup is half full or half empty? We can only share our experiences, which you don't seem to care about. Small Cell has given a lot of time to you on this thread, and you seem to shoot her down on every post.
My thoughts- would I recommend the Carib to a student now? I would say they should only go if it is a last resort. If they have applied to DO and MD for 2-3 years unsuccessfully, and are prepared to have a good chance of failing. That 60% number doesn't sound that bad, but wait until you actually know the people that are failing out. That guy sitting next to you gets sick/messes up/chokes during an exam, he's done. That father of 4 who uprooted his family's whole life can't pass the steps, also done with 400k in dept. I think watching your friends drop out is something that sets people who went through SGU apart from those just spouting numbers, until you have seen how this can wreck a person, you just cannot understand. I have watched multiple people who have dropped out hit rock bottom. One lives at home with no job, one moved overseas, one is doing research for 25k a year, it might not be your rock bottom, but these were people who thought they would be doctors by now.
The thought that your fine once you get off the island is a misnomer as well. I personally know of 10+ people who did not match, all with passing step scores from 210-240. Just getting interviews is not enough, you will be below US grads just because of your school. You need to be smart with your applications, interviews, ect, and there is a lot that can go wrong. There is also a very tiny chance for soaping for IMG's as well, so if you don't match, your screwed. Also, what % of those 900 matches are prelim years? I have more friends that got prelims, completed them, but are now stuck with nothing.

As far as living on the island, I think incoming students should take a hard look at whether they feel they will be successful in that environment as well. It is a 3rd world country, I have no idea why you keep saying it is not. Going without milk or butter for months was a normal occurrence. Loosing water and electric was also quite common. Want to eat out? make sure you choose carefully, one term a large amount of people got food poising before finals from incorrectly prepared food from a local joint. Many apartment complexes have security and barbed wire fences. Public flogging is an acceptable form of punishment. Minimum wage is $2, rent is around $800-$1,200. 90% of the population lives without electricity or running water. Even small things, like the inability to buy a box of mac and cheese without bugs in it can be to much for some. Try running without getting attacked/chased by dogs. Try going on a walk without being followed/catcalled. Little things that add up on the already stressful medical school environment.

 

[JohnWood15]

Some students are succeeding. I was one of them. But many did not. I would not be comfortable recommending carib to an incoming student will a 40% chance of them not graduating or matching. Also take into account the prelim matches are most likely dead ends.



I think a lot of the successful grads don't want to touch this post with a 10 foot pole. Why would we waste our time arguing if the cup is half full or half empty? We can only share our experiences, which you don't seem to care about. Small Cell has given a lot of time to you on this thread, and you seem to shoot her down on every post.
My thoughts- would I recommend the Carib to a student now? I would say they should only go if it is a last resort. If they have applied to DO and MD for 2-3 years unsuccessfully, and are prepared to have a good chance of failing. That 60% number doesn't sound that bad, but wait until you actually know the people that are failing out. That guy sitting next to you gets sick/messes up/chokes during an exam, he's done. That father of 4 who uprooted his family's whole life can't pass the steps, also done with 400k in dept. I think watching your friends drop out is something that sets people who went through SGU apart from those just spouting numbers, until you have seen how this can wreck a person, you just cannot understand. I have watched multiple people who have dropped out hit rock bottom. One lives at home with no job, one moved overseas, one is doing research for 25k a year, it might not be your rock bottom, but these were people who thought they would be doctors by now.
The thought that your fine once you get off the island is a misnomer as well. I personally know of 10+ people who did not match, all with passing step scores from 210-240. Just getting interviews is not enough, you will be below US grads just because of your school. You need to be smart with your applications, interviews, ect, and there is a lot that can go wrong. There is also a very tiny chance for soaping for IMG's as well, so if you don't match, your screwed. Also, what % of those 900 matches are prelim years? I have more friends that got prelims, completed them, but are now stuck with nothing.

As far as living on the island, I think incoming students should take a hard look at whether they feel they will be successful in that environment as well. It is a 3rd world country, I have no idea why you keep saying it is not. Going without milk or butter for months was a normal occurrence. Loosing water and electric was also quite common. Want to eat out? make sure you choose carefully, one term a large amount of people got food poising before finals from incorrectly prepared food from a local joint. Many apartment complexes have security and barbed wire fences. Public flogging is an acceptable form of punishment. Minimum wage is $2, rent is around $800-$1,200. 90% of the population lives without electricity or running water. Even small things, like the inability to buy a box of mac and cheese without bugs in it can be to much for some. Try running without getting attacked/chased by dogs. Try going on a walk without being followed/catcalled. Little things that add up on the already stressful medical school environment.

Your post is more dramatic than it is factual or even objective.

If you ask ten other students from there, I guarantee you they would have a differing opinion. Why should I believe you? I also find it odd that the ones criticizing that route are the ones that are oddly succeeding down that route. So how exactly did you want the outcome to be different? Again, Grenada or least where the campus is located is not "third-world." You cannot have that type of infrastructure in a "third-world" country lol. I suggest you actually watch some videos on what a "third-world" country should look like instead of trying to intimidate others.

You look like you're trying to discredit every aspect of the school that gave you an MD and I find that a bit odd.

The rest of your "input" is essentially a rehash of what I have been saying. When you want to contribute something new, let me know.

 

[JohnWood15]

This is so entertaining, and the whole reason why I frequent this forum (seedy bar, indeed).

So many people here get their undergarments in a bunch (yes, including myself!). Perhaps Skip should try to engage in a decent argument instead of trying to nitpick every single word. There's nothing anyone can post in this forum that he won't nitpick and complain about, unless you're agreeing with him.

However, as entertaining as this forum is, it's also extremely frustrating. It angers me to see so many young kids fall for the Carib marketing trap, and see posters in here that were lucky to have made it actually recommend the Carib to them. It's almost bordering on unethical or immoral.

I really shouldn't care at all. I graduated from a US DO med school, and I'm doing quite well as a primary care physician and program director for an ACGME residency program. Yet, because for some stupid reason I do care, this forum really bothers me sometimes.

Do you have a problem with the 900 graduates from SGU or just the school itself? That's really what the thread was about; the graduates from the program. Since you are a program director, would you like to share you thoughts on how you view that group? Are they legitimate doctors to you or something else? I mean you're calling the school a trap, unethical, etc. so it would be nice to see how someone like you really feels about working alongside that group.

 

[JohnWood15]

I think @aProgDirector has given the most neutral and respectable response here and I appreciate that and it's the only one I can take seriously. I'm not going to waste anymore of my time arguing with posters who are trying to instigate something, continue to give subjective opinion, and or dodge the main subject of the thread rather than adding value to this thread.

I'd really like to hear from @gyngyn and see if they want to add something to this. I'd also like to hear from @Skip Intro again to see what his thoughts are regarding SGU at least. But from his posting history, I really don't know if he's for this route or against this route. His posts are the ones that appear to be all over the place and I really don't think they get to the point. That's my opinion, you might feel differently.

I'll remind you again, this thread is asking why there are 900 graduates coming out of SGU and how that statistic does not really reflect the general sentiment here on this site about a school like SGU.

If you want to contribute something POSITIVE, go ahead but deflecting the discussion to your own, biased opinion of SGU and or what you think you know about the Caribbean really is not going to fool anyone. Let's stay on point here and keep it civil.

 

[ScubaV]

OP doesn't sound like a real person with a real interest in the topic from the perspective of a prospective student (either OP or lurkers): first topic after recent join date, dismissing any contrary opinions out of hand, deflecting away from his/her goal in the thread, laser focus on "SGU and 900 graduates", attempts to play moderator despite no authority to do so. Seems more like a troll or paid "social media marketer" type than a genuine poster to me.

 

[JohnWood15]

The problem is that the majority of those "foreign-trained" physicians in the US are not US citizens that graduated from Caribbean schools. They're non-US citizens that trained outside the US.

Look at Table 1 of the Charting Outcomes in the Match for International Medical Graduates (from the ACGME website). Generally speaking, although US grads of foreign schools outperform foreign-grads in some specialties (mainly primary care specialties...except IM), the more competitive specialties (including IM) are dominated by non-citizen grads.

Lol I just saw this post. Now how am I supposed to look at something like this and come to any conclusion about what I had originally asked? You're admitting that US-IMG's OUTPERFORM foreign-grads in primary care specialties which is what you'll most probably get coming out of SGU and what we are discussing here and then you add in a piece of information that does not even apply to the topic of discussion about non-citizen IMG's. Who cares what any non-citizen grad is doing? Let them do what they want to do, you can't bunch them with Caribbean IMG's for every issue related to Caribbean IMG outcomes. Are you honestly trying to argue that if SGU grads get IM spots, there is some foreign grad who is "doing better?" Seriously? Is that what becoming a doctor is all about?

This is not even about who has the highest number of graduates lol, I'm just talking about the 900 that graduated this year from SGU. It's a very to-the-point discussion and you're turning this worldwide for some reason. At least you admit that US-IMG's perform really well in primary care and I think that means a lot coming from a PD.

 

[mcat_taker]

If you went into SGU thinking you were coming out going into urology, you have no business giving ANY advice on this topic...not even about Grenadians and their dinner choices. And I'm not being funny.

Can you read? He said he became interested in urology once he was IN medical school but also realized he would never match into it coming from SGU, NOT that he went to SGU thinking he would become a urologist. Most medical students don't really know what they will become passionate about until they start learning medicine and in rotations. Do you know how I know this? because it feels like half my class is constantly changing their mind in third year on what they want to do for the rest of their lives and it's a big stress making a career defining decision like this as a medical student.

The point @Small Cell Carcinoma is trying to make is that you don't really know what field of medicine you will want to practice until you're in medical school and you will be limited in your options as an IMG as some fields and programs are pretty much off limits or much more difficult to attain.

You obviously have never been to a third world country before. Just because SGU looks like a nice campus does not mean that Grenada is not a third world country. Think of it this way, there are many nice resorts all over the world in third world countries. That does not mean that the country is not third world. Not sure why this concept is so hard for you to understand.

I still cannot comprehend how you've managed to dismiss every SGU/carib grad or student who has commented on here who doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[JohnWood15]

@gyngyn I can see you lol.

I'm just waiting to see what you have to say. You're usually quick to respond on threads like this so I'm a bit surprised you haven't chimed in yet.

 

[Stagg737]

So much to unpack...going to address some points before explaining why I usually advise against the Carib route (yes, even SGU). WARNING, long post ahead.

OK, so you're the guy who wants to "warn" everybody not to go to the Caribbean so the schools can eventually shut down since nobody will be attending because you said not to go to the Caribbean. My argument then would be, 900 people should immediately apply to SGU because there are apparently 900 spots (as of 2018) up for grabs.

For this argument, I'm not using division, I'm using nice, round, whole numbers.

This comes back to the 900 students that matched last week.

why you have 900 people matching from SGU

I'm still waiting for some people to explain why the school is producing 900 graduates per year and why that is an opportunity that should be avoided. And no, that's not playing the lottery.

You keep using this 900 people graduated/matched/placed number and I really don't think you understand the very different implications of these words

Graduated: Means you completed med school and were deemed worthy by your school to move on to practice medicine. This means very little to nothing in terms of actually advancing your medical career. Idc if 9,000 people graduated if none of them go on to complete residencies.

Matched: Means you graduated medical school and successfully obtained a residency position through the match process. This is good, as it means that one of the places you applied to allowed you into their program and you have the opportunity to continue your medical career after medical school at a program you would have been okay attending.

Placed: Means you completed med school and gained a position in residency. This means you get to continue your career at a residency program, but it does not mean you matched. So you may get to be a doctor, but it if you only placed (through SOAP or found a position after the SOAP) but didn't match, it means you will be doing residency at a program that you didn't want to go to, likely a program with some major problems and that is terrible because the majority of decent programs will fill through the match process.

SGU did not have 930 (exact number from their website) people match, they had 930 obtain placement. They do not advertise their actual match numbers as far as I have seen like most Caribbean schools and even several US schools. There are some other very major sides to this you're either ignoring or not understanding, such as matching into a pre-lim position does not ensure one will eventually become a physician or that placing into a malignant community program in BFE can be just as bad as not matching for some people.

So your argument about "All I care about their 900 graduates/matched/whatever!!!" is flawed due to incomplete data.

So you only figured out recently that you would not be able to match into the specialty of your choice? You didn't know that going in to SGU?

If that were the case, then it would have been foolish and naive. However, last survey I saw from graduating medical students showed that about 70% of students changed their mind about their desired field from what they originally wanted to pursue. As you said, the very competitive fields are essentially off-limits to all but the most elite Carib students, but they aren't to US grads. So if you enter med school wanting FM or peds but end up liking ortho or rad onc, you're essentially screwed as a Carib grad, including SGU.

The right person will succeed at SGU and I hope that person is allowed to make that decision knowing all the facts minus the bias.

This is true. However, as others have stated it's difficult to tell who these students are. If it were easier to know which students would succeed it's very likely several of these schools would accept a smaller number of students and just not accept those they know would be very likely to fail out. That's assuming these schools are more concerned about their student's well-being and success instead of their bottom line. As aProgDirector said, this view will vary from person to person.

I wasn't trying to offend you with that last post. I just don't understand why anyone would think you could go to SGU and come out as anything other than a primary care doc or prelim surgery?

Because there are many delusional pre-meds who see that handful of Carib grads who match into fields like ortho or derm and think they can do it too. This isn't a mindset unique to Carib grads (see following thread, keep in mind several of these pre-meds got into med school), but it certainly exists.

"Funny quotes from 'less informed' pre-meds," On-Topic Edition

I think @aProgDirector has given the most neutral and respectable response here and I appreciate that and it's the only one I can take seriously. I'm not going to waste anymore of my time arguing with posters who are trying to instigate something, continue to give subjective opinion, and or dodge the main subject of the thread rather than adding value to this thread.

I'd really like to hear from @gyngyn and see if they want to add something to this. I'd also like to hear from @Skip Intro again to see what his thoughts are regarding SGU at least. But from his posting history, I really don't know if he's for this route or against this route. His posts are the ones that appear to be all over the place and I really don't think they get to the point. That's my opinion, you might feel differently.

I'll remind you again, this thread is asking why there are 900 graduates coming out of SGU and how that statistic does not really reflect the general sentiment here on this site about a school like SGU.

If you want to contribute something POSITIVE, go ahead but deflecting the discussion to your own, biased opinion of SGU and or what you think you know about the Caribbean really is not going to fool anyone. Let's stay on point here and keep it civil.

Again, 900 grads/placed needs to be put into proper context. The fact that classes start with 1,400 to 1,500 people and hundreds drop out matters. The fact that many who match can only match into certain fields or place into residency programs that most people don't want to go matters. There are many other things that matter which are completely ignored by only looking at a subset of students who attend a school, whether it's SGU or a USMD. Context matters.

I find the bolded to be very ironic. You started a thread asking for opinions about SGU and the "900" statistic and ask specifically for SGU grads and program directors what their views are. Then when SGU students and alum state that their experiences were negative you simply write them off as being biased and ask for only positive contributions. Maybe instead of seemingly changing your original questions, sidestepping criticisms, and grasping for any positive straw about the school you can you should step back and consider why these people who have already (successfully) been through the process at this school are making those negative statements.

@gyngyn I can see you lol.

I'm just waiting to see what you have to say. You're usually quick to respond on threads like this so I'm a bit surprised you haven't chimed in yet.

I'm sure if you go back and look at the posts that gyngyn has "liked", her opinions on your views would become very, very obvious.



Now, to address your initial questions about "What's the underlying message about Caribbean schools?" and "How do you account for the 900 grads/placed?", I'll explain the advice I give all pre-meds.

Yes, there are many individuals who successfully navigate Caribbean medical schools, including SGU. However, the risk and limitations of this route are many and high.

Limitations: Several fields will be unobtainable to all but the most stellar applicants. Neurosurgery, ortho, plastics, uro. The number of Carib students who match into all of those fields in a given year can be counted on your fingers. Even for moderately competitive fields like anesthesia or rads, Carribean grads have to be that much better than their US colleagues just to be considered. Additionally, many programs in even the least competitive fields won't even consider Caribbean applicants. So by attending SGU, you've basically consigned yourself to weaker residency programs in the less competitive fields. By doing so, you've also made certain career paths far more difficult to pursue (research and academia to be specific). So you have less available and you have to be much better than your competition just to be considered. Two huge negatives and something which must be considered.

Risks: The attrition rates are very high and it's difficult to tell which students will have the profile to succeed. Imo, any medical school that only graduates 75% of the students who matriculate is a school I would advise people not to attend. This is true of every Caribbean school I know of including SGU, and many have attrition rates closer to 40%. This wouldn't be an issue if dropping out of med school/getting dismissed meant they could just go on with their lives, but that's not the case. These schools charge high tuition rates which create 6 figures of debt for many who can't cut it. So the combined attrition rates with high tuition/risk of very high debt is a huge risk. Additionally, you have to take into account the risks of going unmatched or of matching into a field or locations that you don't want. For most US grads, matching into fields like FM or peds is guaranteed so long as you don't have major red flags. This isn't always the case for Carib students and I've met one or two who applied to 150+ programs (unheard of for US grads) going unmatched and having to SOAP with no red flags. The even if you manage to be successful in medical school, you're still not out of the woods. For each year someone goes unmatched, their chances of matching in successive years decreases with each failure. So the risks are substantial. Obviously, those who had 90th percentile MCATs and GPA would be fine, but those people are going to get into US schools. It's the mediocre and poor applicants (along with some international students) who end up going to the Carib schools like SGU.

The other issue with Caribbean schools is the lack of resources and support in comparison to US medical schools. Most US schools will do whatever they can to help their students get through the process, sometimes even when the person frankly shouldn't become a doctor. The is not the case at most Caribbean schools, and from what those who attend SGU have said on this site along with residents from SGU I've met irl, SGU is no exception. You also stated at one point that "med school is 4 years". This is true, but a huge number of Caribbean students take an extra semester or year to study for boards and are charged by their schools to stay enrolled. So Caribbean students often end up taking 5-6 years to graduate, whereas in the US this is very uncommon unless someone takes a year off for research or due to some medical issues (during which they are not charged tuition). That only makes the process longer and adds more debt to Caribbean students.

The final issue which is a new one is the AOA/ACGME merger which will be finalized in 2020. At this point all DOs will be applying to ACGME residency programs. Combine this with the opening of new MD and DO schools in the US and the level of competition IMGs have to deal with will only keep increasing (because residency positions are not expanding at the same rate). Whether you believe it or not, many residency programs are looking at IMGs less and less because they simply don't need to. I had a program director straight up tell me he no longer considers IMG or FMG applications because they have so many US applicants, and the current PGY-4 class at that program is mostly IMGs. Anecdotal, but I've heard similar sentiments from several PDs, and these were PDs in fields generally considered IMG friendly (psych and FM).

So I do try and encourage anyone who pursues the Caribbean route to do their best and would help them out as a colleague to succeed once they attend those schools. I'd love for them all to succeed and see their dreams come true. However, I don't sugarcoat the faults of Caribbean schools and pretend like they don't exist as it just . So is the Carib a valid route for many people? Yes. Do those people have to work harder to have less and weaker opportunities than US grads? Yes. Are those people far more likely to fail out or end up in a field/residency that is weaker or where they are miserable than a US grad? Yes. All of those reasons are why I generally advise people to avoid the Caribbean route unless they cannot see themselves doing anything other than being a physician and are willing to risk potentially taking on 6 figures of debt with no promising future careers. For the very few who fall into that category I say best of luck. For those with more at stake (like families) or who are more risk averse, I tell them to run away as fast as they can.

 

[JohnWood15]

So much to unpack...going to address some points before explaining why I usually advise against the Carib route (yes, even SGU). WARNING, long post ahead.



.

Way too long man, try and split that up next time. Nobody wants to read through that.

A couple points...

1. How familiar are you with the Caribbean pathway?
2. The AOA/ACGME merger will absolutely not affect IMG's. I'm sure you think it will but if anything, it is going to make it tougher for DO's. If you have any doubts, ask your PD or go send @aProgDirector a PM to understand how that merger actually works and who it benefits, who it makes it tougher for, and who could care less. Again, refer to my discussion early on about regionalism and IMG's. It's a real thing, no US grad is looking to take some of the positions that exist regionally that programs know will get filled by IMG's. That might however not be your area of expertise due to your region.
3. You can slice the 900 graduates/residency placements whichever way satisfies your agenda. The bottom line is that 900 people graduated from SGU last week and they will be treating patients very soon. That is a given. It's not your call to decide if you agree or disagree with the quality of those "placements." That's the student's business and they may very well be happy with where they are and what they secured. A surgical prelim, as you probably know, is not even a dead end. You enter the match again the next year and you could probably be in a categorical surgery spot or even a completely different spot and still be on your way to a successful career. You seem to think that Caribbean or SGU residency positions are not legitimate or something to that effect. You need to get away from that type of thinking as I think it's as toxic way of looking at life.
4. You have a few disgruntled "SGU students" here who oddly are succeeding at SGU but don't like SGU at the same time. They can type whatever they want but it just sounds stupid "Yeah, I'm succeeding here at SGU but don't come here because it's not like the US." Most people could care less about the two years in Grenada as long as they know they are coming back stateside. Are you even verifying who some of these people are? Are we supposed these are real students just because they say they are? Maybe some of these kids will believe anything but it's not convincing to someone who has actually spoken face to face with REAL Caribbean medical graduates. I don't need a faceless SDN member to give me the final word on an issue I have some background on. I could go seek out 100 other SGU grads anywhere in America and I would get 100 different opinions about SGU. The SDN SGU group does not get the final word on what SGU is or isn't. They get to give an OPINION just like anybody else and that's it.
5. I couldn't make it through your whole post but you are rehashing the obvious with regards to specialty placement and then you are talking about the quality of education of some of these programs when you have not attended a Caribbean school yourself so I don't know what's up with that. Restating obvious information is not going to improve your argument or make it sound better.

I'm satisfied with @aProgDirector and their response and I think it is a fair answer to the initial question that I had posted. And like I said earlier, it is the most neutral and from someone who I am confident is a REAL person. I wasn't expecting that from SDN but I will take it.

I was actually a little surprised that I didn't hear more from some of the other established users but I don't blame them; this is a tricky subject and they probably feel it's best to avoid it. I don't blame them. I was hoping to actually get an unbiased opinion from some of these guys but this is SDN and that will never happen lol.

The Caribbean is not for everybody but it is obviously a route that is producing competent MD's and you can't just dismiss that because you don't agree with it and that's really where I was going with all of this but you still have the stubborn SDN'ers who want to pretend that they can predict the future and that their opinion is gold. I didn't come here for advice, I came here to have a discussion since most of the discussion on this matter is not high quality. I'd like to see a better forum for those who are really interested in trying out the Caribbean as an option to get their MD but sadly this is the only popular place that exists and most of the posting on this subject is more subjective than objective.

Like I said, I'm satisfied with the answer I received.

 

[Stagg737]

1. How familiar are you with the Caribbean pathway?

More familiar than most. Take that however you'd like, but I'm confident in my assessments of Caribbean schools.

2. The AOA/ACGME merger will absolutely not affect IMG's. I'm sure you think it will but if anything, it is going to make it tougher for DO's. If you have any doubts, ask your PD or go send @aProgDirector a PM to understand how that merger actually works and who it benefits, who it makes it tougher for, and who could care less. Again, refer to my discussion early on about regionalism and IMG's. It's a real thing, no US grad is looking to take some of the positions that exist regionally that programs know will get filled by IMG's. That might however not be your area of expertise due to your region.

If you think it won't affect IMGs then you have little experience with actual program directors. I am fully aware of how the merger works as well as some of the administrative aspects of it that many individuals may be unaware of. It will absolutely affect DOs. However, there are more DOs that will be entering the match than new positions carried over because of the merger. If you think this won't affect IMG placement at all, you're wrong. The question isn't if the merger with affect IMGs, it's how much it will affect them.
.

3. You can slice the 900 graduates/residency placements whichever way satisfies your agenda. The bottom line is that 900 people graduated from SGU last week and they will be treating patients very soon. That is a given. It's not your call to decide if you agree or disagree with the quality of those "placements." That's the student's business and they may very well be happy with where they are and what they secured. A surgical prelim, as you probably know, is not even a dead end. You enter the match again the next year and you could probably be in a categorical surgery spot or even a completely different spot and still be on your way to a successful career. You seem to think that Caribbean or SGU residency positions are not legitimate or something to that effect. You need to get away from that type of thinking as I think it's as toxic way of looking at life.

I never said anything remotely of the sort. The fact that this is how you're interpreting so many comments in this thread speaks volumes about your own bias and how you're interpreting responses here. You may want to take a step back and re-read what people are saying, as you've made a lot of assumptions and misinterpretations which were never stated or implied.

4. You have a few disgruntled "SGU students" here who oddly are succeeding at SGU but don't like SGU at the same time. They can type whatever they want but it just sounds stupid "Yeah, I'm succeeding here at SGU but don't come here because it's not like the US." Most people could care less about the two years in Grenada as long as they know they are coming back stateside. Are you even verifying who some of these people are? Are we supposed these are real students just because they say they are? Maybe some of these kids will believe anything but it's not convincing to someone who has actually spoken face to face with REAL Caribbean medical graduates. I don't need a faceless SDN member to give me the final word on an issue I have some background on. I could go seek out 100 other SGU grads anywhere in America and I would get 100 different opinions about SGU. The SDN SGU group does not get the final word on what SGU is or isn't. They get to give an OPINION just like anybody else and that's it.

I've worked with dozens of Carib graduates irl and the majority of their experiences line up with what is conveyed on this site. Mostly along the lines of "it got me where I needed to be, but it could have been so much better." Keep in mind these people I interacted with were the ones who became residents and physicians, so they're "real faces" with similar stories. If you disagree that's fine, but your invalidation of anyone's comments who disagree with your own again speak to your own bias and come across as arrogant. Frankly, I wouldn't want to work with you.

The Caribbean is not for everybody but it is obviously a route that is producing competent MD's and you can't just dismiss that because you don't agree with it and that's really where I was going with all of this but you still have the stubborn SDN'ers who want to pretend that they can predict the future and that their opinion is gold. I didn't come here for advice, I came here to have a discussion since most of the discussion on this matter is not high quality. I'd like to see a better forum for those who are really interested in trying out the Caribbean as an option to get their MD but sadly this is the only popular place that exists and most of the posting on this subject is more subjective than objective.

What objective measures would you like? Match rates? The school should be providing that on their website but they conveniently leave it out and use "placement rates" and act like they're the same thing. 4-year graduation rates? Yet another relevant stat nowhere to be found. How about actual attrition rates? Again, no data from the schools. You're right that no one can predict the future. Maybe next year the elite neurosurgery programs will all fill with SGU grads. Who knows?! However, the best way we can look at this is to look at past data and trends. The best sources for this stuff is from NRMP reports, specifically program director surveys and Charting the Outcomes, both of which show that IMGs from any school are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to the match over their US counterparts (both MD and DO).

I'm sorry that you don't like the "quality" of conversations here. Saying "your post is too long" when someone tries to address your points makes it sound like you don't want quality conversations though, and some of your other responses make it sound like all you want is to reaffirm your pre-held beliefs. Sorry if the reality that students of SGU students, alums, and other attendings/PDs don't line up with your opinion, but if you don't want people disagreeing with you, don't bother asking. You also keep saying "how do we know these people are credible?", but we can say the same thing about you. As far as I saw you haven't identified yourself at all as a pre-med, student, or otherwise. Might want to clarify your own position before attacking the credentials of other people, otherwise you just come across as hypocritical.

 

[mcat_taker]

Way too long man, try and split that up next time. Nobody wants to read through that.
4. You have a few disgruntled "SGU students" here who oddly are succeeding at SGU but don't like SGU at the same time. They can type whatever they want but it just sounds stupid "Yeah, I'm succeeding here at SGU but don't come here because it's not like the US." Most people could care less about the two years in Grenada as long as they know they are coming back stateside. Are you even verifying who some of these people are? Are we supposed these are real students just because they say they are? Maybe some of these kids will believe anything but it's not convincing to someone who has actually spoken face to face with REAL Caribbean medical graduates. I don't need a faceless SDN member to give me the final word on an issue I have some background on. I could go seek out 100 other SGU grads anywhere in America and I would get 100 different opinions about SGU. The SDN SGU group does not get the final word on what SGU is or isn't. They get to give an OPINION just like anybody else and that's it.

You didn't come here for a discussion. Somehow your opinion as a premed student who has never set foot at a Caribbean school is worth more than actual students and grads who attended. Your arrogance will not bode well for your future endeavors as a Caribbean medical student or future physician.

No one is disputing that SGU is a legitimate school which produces legitimate doctors-- but again need to look at the denominator. Posters here are stating how many additional hurdles and risks are involved, predatory practices involved, the nature of for profit schooling, how potentially a lot of future specialty streams could be cut off to you (which you can't anticipate in how much that will affect you until you fall in love with a specialty and realize what a disadvantage you are at- for example do you really know what IM and FM practice is really like until you rotate on those services?? and whether accepting the risk is worth it.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

All I saw was Skip's circlejerk comment and that made the thread for me

 

[JohnWood15]

More familiar than most. Take that however you'd like, but I'm confident in my assessments of Caribbean schools.



If you think it won't affect IMGs then you have little experience with actual program directors. I am fully aware of how the merger works as well as some of the administrative aspects of it that many individuals may be unaware of. It will absolutely affect DOs. However, there are more DOs that will be entering the match than new positions carried over because of the merger. If you think this won't affect IMG placement at all, you're wrong. The question isn't if the merger with affect IMGs, it's how much it will affect them.
.


I never said anything remotely of the sort. The fact that this is how you're interpreting so many comments in this thread speaks volumes about your own bias and how you're interpreting responses here. You may want to take a step back and re-read what people are saying, as you've made a lot of assumptions and misinterpretations which were never stated or implied.



I've worked with dozens of Carib graduates irl and the majority of their experiences line up with what is conveyed on this site. Mostly along the lines of "it got me where I needed to be, but it could have been so much better." Keep in mind these people I interacted with were the ones who became residents and physicians, so they're "real faces" with similar stories. If you disagree that's fine, but your invalidation of anyone's comments who disagree with your own again speak to your own bias and come across as arrogant. Frankly, I wouldn't want to work with you.



What objective measures would you like? Match rates? The school should be providing that on their website but they conveniently leave it out and use "placement rates" and act like they're the same thing. 4-year graduation rates? Yet another relevant stat nowhere to be found. How about actual attrition rates? Again, no data from the schools. You're right that no one can predict the future. Maybe next year the elite neurosurgery programs will all fill with SGU grads. Who knows?! However, the best way we can look at this is to look at past data and trends. The best sources for this stuff is from NRMP reports, specifically program director surveys and Charting the Outcomes, both of which show that IMGs from any school are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to the match over their US counterparts (both MD and DO).

I'm sorry that you don't like the "quality" of conversations here. Saying "your post is too long" when someone tries to address your points makes it sound like you don't want quality conversations though, and some of your other responses make it sound like all you want is to reaffirm your pre-held beliefs. Sorry if the reality that students of SGU students, alums, and other attendings/PDs don't line up with your opinion, but if you don't want people disagreeing with you, don't bother asking. You also keep saying "how do we know these people are credible?", but we can say the same thing about you. As far as I saw you haven't identified yourself at all as a pre-med, student, or otherwise. Might want to clarify your own position before attacking the credentials of other people, otherwise you just come across as hypocritical.

I think this is how it's going to go with the Caribbean discussions here on SDN. But the bottom line is you have 900 people coming out of SGU and INTO a residency program and if you want to discredit that and spin that to your liking, you are free to do that but I personally don't see the point if you are not taking that pathway yourself. Does that make sense? I would think people come here for advice with what they want to do with their own life, not what you want to do with yours. If you are against the Caribbean and you have no plans of going down that path, why exactly give your opinion? I think I got my point across but I still haven't gotten a decent response...other than from @aProgDirector, as to why you have 900 people obtaining residencies from SGU.

Look back at that long post you just wrote, that's precisely the lack of quality I have been talking about. It's a wordy post yes but It's biased and has no substance. You essentially are telling me "You're (mine) opinion doesn't matter...but MINE (yours) does because...???" Again, we don't even know who you are or what region of the country you are in. Your best bet is to take the objective route and then maybe we could start to have a real discussion here. Are you trying to say that you're speaking for all Caribbean medical students and graduates? You keep bringing up statistics that don't even matter lol. I suspect you are doing that because you don't want to argue fact. I'll say it one last time, SGU is a for-profit school, you are going to have attrition rates that are high or even very high. That comes with the territory so to speak, it will never be a non-issue. But why should that concern you if you are well-prepared for that program? That's the idea here and the one most people choose to avoid discussing. If you're well-prepared for SGU, I'm saying you will succeed and become a practicing MD...or at least the odds will be incredibly in your favor. When you do figure out why we have 900 graduates from SGU in 2018 and why we will have 900 graduates in 2019, let me know what the explanation for that is and/or why someone should not explore this option.

 

[JohnWood15]

If you think it won't affect IMGs then you have little experience with actual program directors. I am fully aware of how the merger works as well as some of the administrative aspects of it that many individuals may be unaware of. It will absolutely affect DOs. However, there are more DOs that will be entering the match than new positions carried over because of the merger. If you think this won't affect IMG placement at all, you're wrong. The question isn't if the merger with affect IMGs, it's how much it will affect them.

This is a pretty bold statement to make so why don't we give you the floor here to explain yourself.

I'm saying the merger DOES NOT affect IMG's in any measurable way. You are saying otherwise. So explain yourself. And don't say it's a secret lol.

What region are you from anyway?

 

[bedevilled ben]

Your post is more dramatic than it is factual or even objective.

If you ask ten other students from there, I guarantee you they would have a differing opinion.

You would be, as you have been throughout this entire thread, woefully uninformed and incorrect. Everything @Mikkus and @Small Cell Carcinoma posted above is true.