So confused about the Carib schools

[whateva07]

So I need some basic help...

-Which schhools are the best in the caribbean?

-My background: I have a 3.63 GPA, 26MCAT and I have applied two times in the US got two interviews at my state schools and I was not successful. Now I'm looking at caribb and Do schools...and I want to know which caribbean school should I apply to and how does the whole process work

-Please any advice especially about DO vs. Caribbean. Is it true DO's are picked before caribb grads for residencies?

Thanks!

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[dragonfly99]

Hmmm
I'm not an expert on Caribbean schools, b/c I'm a US grad.
However, it seems that St George's and Ross are the ones with the longest h/o matching people in the US. I actually was thinking of Ross or SABA years ago, when I at first had trouble getting in the US.
It seems that you would have a shot at the US if your MCAT score was a little higher. Have you taken a course like Princeton Review and/or Kaplan and really done all the homework, etc. and practice tests? I'm just trying to be helpful...and that is what helped me.
Also, good letters of recommendation are essential, and it helps to have one from someone who has some connection to a medical school or two. Sometimes if you get a job at a medical school, like in someone's lab, they can help you get in to school. Also the volunteer work is important, as you know I'm sure.

If you go to a Carib school, make sure you get the lowdown on what their residency placement rate actually is...what % of students who enter actually graduate, and at what point do they fail out, if they do. What %go all the way through and still don't get a residency. VERY important is what is the pass rate on the US medical licensing exam part 1 and 2...you HAVE to pass that test to get a US residency, and if the school is teaching the right stuff and only accepting people who can actually pass, the pass rate really should be 90% or more.

What about the premed advisor at your undergrad? Can they help you? If your school has one, that can be helpful. They may have ideas about what schools have taken students from your undergrad....

You have to be careful about these Caribbean schools...if you go down there you have no margin for error, because if you go and borrow 80k or 160k and then you fail out or can't match into a residency, you are hosed. That is the problem. And I can tell you from experience here in the US even the schools don't necessarily pay that much attention to the students...and they only have 120 per class. Some of these Carib schools have hundreds per class, and I would wonder if they can provide the teaching. I think if you go there and you do well, and pass all the USMLE medical license exams and do well on them, then you could pretty easily get some kind of residency in the US. The problem is it might be some specialty that you don't really want to do, or in some hospital where the working conditions are not very good. That is what you need to consider.

I'm not an expert on DO schools either, but I can say that DO's match at US allopathic/MD hospitals AND they have their own residencies as well. If I were you and I wanted dermatology or radiology, then I would go try to get in to a DO school, since chances of getting radiology or derm or something like plastic or orthopedic surg after going to the Caribbean would not be good (would probably not get in to a US allopathic OR a US DO residency). If you want to do some primary care specialty, then probably could get in to those residencies from either a DO or Caribbean school. The thing is, there are more and more DO schools opening in the US, which I'm assuming will need students. I honestly don't know what I'd do in your situation, but I would consider running the number r.e. how much it will cost you for each option. I don't think I'd be willing to pay a lot more money to go to a Carib school just to get MD after my name...trust me it's painful paying back those student loans later and it limits your lifestyle, etc. long after you graduate. It's something to consider.

Also, consider if you like other health professions. I just finished medicine residency and there are NP's and PA's who have been making way more than me x MANY years...some still are. Also the pharmacists do well and I think some of them do more clinical stuff now...I mean stuff with patients. Also, physical therapy and optometry. PT is good if you like sports med, etc. and optometry if you want to be an eye doc but don't care about doing eye surgery. I'm not saying this to totally try to change your mind, but lots of these folks are still laughing all the way to the bank, while 5 years out of med school I'm still 130k in debt while having steadily paid my loan payments each month! I don't regret my decision to go to med school but it sure was a bigger one that I realized at the time.

 

[whateva07]

Wow thanks for taking the time to write that out! Some good advice in there. Thanks.

I'm open to other opinions as well if there is anyone else who would like to respond.

 

[facetguy]

There are tons of "DO vs. Carib MD" discussions throughout SDN, so try a search if you haven't already. Also, try ValueMD.com for more Carib school discussions. The general consensus (at least from what I've gathered) seems to be that, unless you have an aversion to the DO letters after your name, going DO is a less complicated route. Your stats would indicate that you've got a decent shot at a DO school. Good luck.

 

[whateva07]

There are tons of "DO vs. Carib MD" discussions throughout SDN, so try a search if you haven't already. Also, try ValueMD.com for more Carib school discussions. The general consensus (at least from what I've gathered) seems to be that, unless you have an aversion to the DO letters after your name, going DO is a less complicated route. Your stats would indicate that you've got a decent shot at a DO school. Good luck.

Yea I have loooked around and it seems that to be the case, but there a few ppl I know personally who think caribbean is the better option and these are ppl who I trust and are telling me straight what they think. But I'm thinking as DOs are only the minority of doctors that there is still a lot not known about DOs, bc the ppl I know have told me that they know ppl personally who were successful coming from the caribbean. So its a get a bit confusing. I am applying to DO and I'll see how that works out, but I still want to make sure that I'm doing what I feel is best for me.

 

[McGillGrad]

Like stated above, do your best to get into the US with a MCAT retake or other options because the Carib is a sink or swim situation.

Only consider 4 schools: AUC, SGU, Ross or Saba.

You will be locked out of the highly competitive specialties (Derm, Ortho, Optho, Urology etc) but people have matched them in the past and it really depends on your scores and connections. Other medium competitive specialties are within reach as long as you score accordingly and apply widely.

DO Vs. Carib comes down to ONE thing. What two letters do you want after your name...

 

[whateva07]

Like stated above, do your best to get into the US with a MCAT retake or other options because the Carib is a sink or swim situation.

Only consider 4 schools: AUC, SGU, Ross or Saba.

You will be locked out of the highly competitive specialties (Derm, Ortho, Optho, Urology etc) but people have matched them in the past and it really depends on your scores and connections. Other medium competitive specialties are within reach as long as you score accordingly and apply widely.

DO Vs. Carib comes down to ONE thing. What two letters do you want after your name...

I dont care about the letters. If I can get a better option of residencies through DO then hands down thats the way I want to go, but the ppl Ive been talking to know a lot of ppl from the caribbean placing into decent residences i guess, neurology, allergies. So I think ok DO seems logical to be the better, but then sometimes I just get somewhat confused. I guess I'm on here looking for some reassurance.

 

[J ROD]

Here's my input!

DO is a better option if you do not care about your initials. It is still in the US, better chances at residency, etc.

Caribbean MD can still get you there as long as you are willing to jump through the hurdles; especially with the Big 4. There is more risk, period.

Personally, for me, I want to be a MD and not have to explain my initials to patient or even hospital staff. I have been asking around and many nurses, etc are not even sure what DO's are where I am from. Granted, it is the South, lol!!

I am sure as DO's become more prevalent that this will diminish. But, I want MD after my name and I like to gamble. So, I think I could get there with the Caribbean MD.

It really is a hard decision all around.

I would give the MCAT one more round really hard because you can jump 2-3 points pretty easy with a test that plays to your strength. Nothing beats US MD!!

 

[dragonfly99]

To the OP,
I am not sure who was telling you Carib > DO. If they are older docs or older/middle aged type people, I think that perhaps it is because in the past there was more prejudice in the medical world against DO's. Perhaps in the past their admissions standards and teaching, etc. were not very similar to allopathic schools, and they had some beliefs long ago about not using medications, etc. that goes back to the history of patent medicines in the 19th and early 20th centuries that were toxic, I believe. Also, a lot of people don't believe in the osteopathic manipulation treatments (not sure I do either, but my impression is it's not used or taught quite as much any more as it was in the past). It seems that recently, the DO schools are just more similar to the MD ones, while the MD ones have also drifted perhaps closer to the DO schools, in terms of emphasizing interpersonal skills and treating the "whole person" a little more in recent years.

I think that for someone who strongly wants the MD route and is a good test taker, Carib might work out, since with a high US med licensing exam score you'd have a better shot at a decent US residency. However, if standardized tests aren't your thing so much, then DO might be better b/c you'd get to go to school here in the US, and my impression is the DO residencies are not as much sticklers about whether someone did great on the USMLE vs. not, plus they have their own DO accreditation exams. You might want to post on one of the DO threads to get info from the DO students on how they like their schools, and which ones might have reasonable tuition, etc.

I think you should run the numbers to see how much it will cost you to go to school DO in the US vs. MD in the Caribbean. It does matter somewhat...not if it's 10k difference, but what if it's 60k?

 

[whateva07]

I would give the MCAT one more round really hard because you can jump 2-3 points pretty easy with a test that plays to your strength. Nothing beats US MD!!

I've taken the MCAT 3 times, and I studied for several months again and was scoring 30+ on my tests consistently even...and I ended up getting a 26 again. So it was disappointing, but I decided not to take the MCAT a third time bc I was afraid I was taking a risk and my score would go down and taking it the fourth time could not possibly look great. It really sucks, bc I wouldve even taken a 2 point increase but it didnt happen. So I have to do with what Ive got, and if I actually got an MD interview this year I know I'm lucky as hell to get that...but I'm pretty positive that it wont happen.

 

[J ROD]

I've taken the MCAT 3 times, and I studied for several months again and was scoring 30+ on my tests consistently even...and I ended up getting a 26 again. So it was disappointing, but I decided not to take the MCAT a third time bc I was afraid I was taking a risk and my score would go down and taking it the fourth time could not possibly look great. It really sucks, bc I wouldve even taken a 2 point increase but it didnt happen. So I have to do with what Ive got, and if I actually got an MD interview this year I know I'm lucky as hell to get that...but I'm pretty positive that it wont happen.

Since you are not DO opposed, I would go with the DO option and look into that. I think it is your best option at this point.

FYI: When I was reading some threads earlier, I saw a guy that took the MCAT 4 times and got a 22,26,26,33. So, you never know!!

All it takes is one, good day!

My in-state school told me that did not care how many times I took it as long as I got a competitive score on one of them. They think the MCAT is overrated as a judging tool. But, I still need to get close.

 

[McGillGrad]

I am a "big-4" Carib student but I would have considered DO if I weren't Canadian.

If the initials do not bother you and the lower USMLE pass rate (for DO students) is not a big deal then go for it b/c DO's have their own residencies plus allopathic residencies to apply for, in the end.

The most important things to keep in mind is to go in a direction you will be comfortable with (i.e. thick skinned Carib grad or confident DO grad) and make sure you have the unstoppable drive and motivation necessary to complete your journey.

Doubt cannot play a part in your goals once they have been set.

 

[whateva07]

I am a "big-4" Carib student but I would have considered DO if I weren't Canadian.

If the initials do not bother you and the lower USMLE pass rate (for DO students) is not a big deal then go for it b/c DO's have their own residencies plus allopathic residencies to apply for, in the end.

The most important things to keep in mind is to go in a direction you will be comfortable with (i.e. thick skinned Carib grad or confident DO grad) and make sure you have the unstoppable drive and motivation necessary to complete your journey.

Doubt cannot play a part in your goals once they have been set.

DOs have a lower USMLE pass rate?????

 

[J ROD]

DOs have a lower USMLE pass rate?????

Compared to US MDs

 

[whateva07]

Compared to US MDs

Well I guess that makes sense...but by how much? I know a lot of MD schools boast about a 95-99% pass rate, but I'm wondering how much is it for DO schools.

 

[J ROD]

Well I guess that makes sense...but by how much? I know a lot of MD schools boast about a 95-99% pass rate, but I'm wondering how much is it for DO schools.

I think it is somewhere in the 70%-lower 80%'s for DO's. Not sure but I think I remember reading it somewhere on here. Do a search and you probably can find it. Caribbean MD overall was lower than that.

 

[McGillGrad]

I think it is somewhere in the 70%-lower 80%'s for DO's. Not sure but I think I remember reading it somewhere on here. Do a search and you probably can find it. Caribbean MD overall was lower than that.

Actually Carib schools have a higher pass rate than DO's. But IMG's in general have a lower rate. It is mostly based on the fact that Carib school have internal exams that you need to pass before taking step 1. So the pass rate is really high b/c only the ones who can pass take it.

 

[pdeco1]

Why is it either/or? Research the schools. That is going to be easier with the Carib schools since there are only 3, maybe 4 that are options. LECOM and LECOM B have good reputation as does the DO school in Fort Worth.

Apply to the best schools that accept students of your caliber and try to get into the best one. In the end your a doctor and that is what is most important.

 

[dragonfly99]

The thing you have to remember about USMLE pass rates and DO schools is that the USMLE is optional for DO students. The DO programs have their own exam (not called USMLE but it's their equivalent) that one would have to pass to practice as a DO, from what I understand. Therefore the DO schools wouldn't necessarily be teaching you, or testing you, on all the things that are on the USMLE. THe other thing is that some DO Schools take students who don't score as well on standardized tests, which means it's not surprising that these same students would have a lower pass rate on the USMLE, which is a fairly difficult standardized test.

Agree with the above post, it's not an either/or situation. One could apply to some MD Schools (like your state schools, etc.) and some DO schools and the Caribbean at the same time, or wait a few months after applying US MD/DO and if no results then go to the Caribbean.

 

[dragonfly99]

You should be able to perhaps investigate also, and find out the USMLE pass rates for various schools, including DO schools. Not sure where this would be but I'll bet it's publicly available. If potentially getting an MD residency is important to you, then you could investigate and find out which DO schools have students who do well on USMLE.

 

[whateva07]

You should be able to perhaps investigate also, and find out the USMLE pass rates for various schools, including DO schools. Not sure where this would be but I'll bet it's publicly available. If potentially getting an MD residency is important to you, then you could investigate and find out which DO schools have students who do well on USMLE.

I have a friend who did DO and got an allopathic residency, and says if you a bigger hospital base for your residency than allopathic is the way to go. So I guess I will see, but I just want to make sure I still have the option of allopathic residency.

 

[pokerslut]

So I need some basic help...

-Which schhools are the best in the caribbean?

-My background: I have a 3.63 GPA, 26MCAT and I have applied two times in the US got two interviews at my state schools and I was not successful. Now I'm looking at caribb and Do schools...and I want to know which caribbean school should I apply to and how does the whole process work

-Please any advice especially about DO vs. Caribbean. Is it true DO's are picked before caribb grads for residencies?

Thanks!

That is a really tough question to answer.

This is coming from a 5th semester student at SMU.

St. George has the best reputation, but you will easily be in $300,000+ in debt. The school is real expensive.

Ross is a less expensive, but the island and academics are a common complaint of the students.

AUC is kinda middle of the road with regards to cost and academics; but a lot of people don't like that Carribean is in the name of the school. Hey, it is important to some people. Also, depending on your personality, the island that AUC is on has many distractions; like casino's, ***** houses, and strip clubs.

St. Matthew's is on a modern island with no casinos, ***** houses or strip clubs, and the professors are great; but the economy has caused the island to have school loan issues. But in the next two years SMU and AUA, plus a few others will get chapter 4 loans. SMU is owned by the same people that own SABA and another school.

SMU is not approved in all 50 states.

Depending on when you want to start; a lot of things are changing in the Carribean school route. Apparently, Ross is moving to the Bahamas in the next year or so. SMU will be getting title 4 loans within the next year or two-- and maybe California licensure.

This is strictly speculation on my part; but I think the move for Ross to the Bahamas is a strategic one, because SMU is likely to get California soon; and if this happens Ross will loose a lot of money, because the island is the biggest negative for potential students.

Valuemd.com is a great resource for potential carribean students.

If I can do it all over again with regard to choosing a carribean school; I would still go to SMU. This is because I can get money for school since I am doing an MBA concurrently through Davenport University. Not something for everybody; but I am managing well with it and the MD stuff. The MBA costs money to do, but the lower tuition kinda pays for itself if you go to a different school, like Ross for example.

The island is very modern and the professors are great. Tuiton is about 8,000 a semester.

Final tidbit. A few doctors warned me about the amount of debt you might owe after school. My attitude about it at the time was that I'll make good money to pay it off.

But when you actually see it or experience, that is a different story. It is somewhat scary. There is not much of a difference between 220,000 versus 250,00 (kinda). But 350,000 is a lot bigger hole to dig out of. Common sense stuff I know, but depending on where you go that is what you are looking at. INTEREST is thekey word here.

Please feel free to drop a line anytime this week as I am on break, if you have any questions. Hope this helps.

 

[gmacpac]

I just went through this entire process.

DO is hands down a better option than Carribean. You can match into any residency program you want, and if you get accepted to a low tuition program you will save $$$ by going the DO route.

They myth that no one knows about DO's is completely false. I have been a clinician for 5 years now, and trust me when I tell you this......DO's are very well known, and very well respected. I have shadowed DO's at Harvard affiliated hospitals. You cant get better than that. Keep in mind that there are NO carribean grads currently at Harvard. This alone should tell you the difference between DO vs. Carribean.

Carribean is an off shore school. Yes, it will get you into a Internal med residency, but 50 yrs down the road, are you really going to take pride in a Carribean education????


Just my 2cents, take it for what its worth.

 

[AngryBaby]

I just went through this entire process.

DO is hands down a better option than Carribean. You can match into any residency program you want, and if you get accepted to a low tuition program you will save $$$ by going the DO route.

They myth that no one knows about DO's is completely false. I have been a clinician for 5 years now, and trust me when I tell you this......DO's are very well known, and very well respected. I have shadowed DO's at Harvard affiliated hospitals. You cant get better than that. Keep in mind that there are NO carribean grads currently at Harvard. This alone should tell you the difference between DO vs. Carribean.

Carribean is an off shore school. Yes, it will get you into a Internal med residency, but 50 yrs down the road, are you really going to take pride in a Carribean education????


Just my 2cents, take it for what its worth.

I guess you're not counting the SGU grad practicing as a radiation oncologist at Harvard??

You DO kids don't know what you're talking about. Do some research or don't post on the topic, please.

There are some DO schools I would have attended over SGU and some of them I wouldn't have. Sure some DOs are very well respected, just like some aren't. Same as Carib grads.

Carib grads have to be more competitive re: grades, board scores, LOR's, etc than US allo grads and most DO grads (except the new DO schools) and some would prefer to go to a low-tier DO school and/or train at a low-tier DO residency in the specialty of their choice instead of going to a top 3 Carib school. Good for them. Not good for me.

Anyway, point is you should know what you're talking about first.

 

[McGillGrad]

The fact that you have no idea what you're talking about removes any creditbility you may have had as a proponent of DO schools.

The only thing more pathetic than a Carib grad with low self-esteem is a DO with a caribbean chip on their shoulder.

There are at least two Caribbean grads teaching at Harvard THAT I PERSONALLY KNOW.

lol

I just went through this entire process.

DO is hands down a better option than Carribean. You can match into any residency program you want, and if you get accepted to a low tuition program you will save $$$ by going the DO route.

They myth that no one knows about DO's is completely false. I have been a clinician for 5 years now, and trust me when I tell you this......DO's are very well known, and very well respected. I have shadowed DO's at Harvard affiliated hospitals. You cant get better than that. Keep in mind that there are NO carribean grads currently at Harvard. This alone should tell you the difference between DO vs. Carribean.

Carribean is an off shore school. Yes, it will get you into a Internal med residency, but 50 yrs down the road, are you really going to take pride in a Carribean education????


Just my 2cents, take it for what its worth.

 

[J1515]

DOs have a lower USMLE pass rate?????

DOs only have to take the COMLEX to get licensed and have similar pass rates for that exam as MDs have for the USMLE.

 

[McGillGrad]

DOs only have to take the COMLEX to get licensed and have similar pass rates for that exam as MDs have for the USMLE.

DO's have significantly lower USMLE pass rates than US MD's. It is 77%, to be exact. The COMLEX is not equal to the USMLE so don't try to make it seem like they are equal.

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2007.html

 

[Gloogle]

You have to be careful about these Caribbean schools...if you go down there you have no margin for error, because if you go and borrow 80k or 160k and then you fail out or can't match into a residency, you are hosed. That is the problem. And I can tell you from experience here in the US even the schools don't necessarily pay that much attention to the students...and they only have 120 per class. Some of these Carib schools have hundreds per class, and I would wonder if they can provide the teaching.

There is no more than 30 people per class where I attend school.

 

[Taurus]

The general rule is:
US MD > DO >> Carib MD.

Hey, it's your life and money. Do whatever you want with it.

 

[McGillGrad]

It depends on who you're asking.

Your opinion is only one jaded opinion.

The general rule is:
US MD > DO >> Carib MD.

Hey, it's your life and money. Do whatever you want with it.

 

[Taurus]

It depends on who you're asking.

Your opinion is only one jaded opinion.

It's from experience as well. I have interacted with more DO's while at well known institutions than I have with Carib grads. Probably at least 10:1 or more ratio. DO's don't have as great of a stigma as Carib grads as some believe.

 

[dragonfly99]

Argh.
Does this have to degenerate into another DO vs. Caribbean thread?
My only point in the post above was that I felt the OP would have an easier time with his/her career, and perhaps (though not necessarily definitely) get a better education if she/he could stay in the US and go the traditional MD route. I have had an attending once who was a cardiologist and had gone to a Caribbean med school (though I didn't know it until later), so it does happen that people go there and succeed, and some even enter competitive fields like cardiology in the US. Similarly, I worked with a totally awesome DO anesthesiology resident when I was a med student (@ a major academic allopathic/MD medical center). I just think that both the DO and the Caribbean schools tend to be more expensive and probably have in general less options for residency, and some I think are understaffed in terms of their ability to provide teaching during the 3rd and 4th years/clinical years, and some of the Caribbean schools have really big class sizes, which in my experience detracts from the teaching.

Since the OP seems to be "on the cusp" in terms of being competitive for a US MD school, and it seems he/she started out being interested in the MD rather than DO route, I was just suggesting he/she try again at US MD school(s) with some strategizing such as trying to raise the MCAT score a little.

 

[McGillGrad]

Opinion springs from one's own experiences.

I have nothing against DO's, btw. We're all in this together against lower experienced health practitioners trying to get the same pay/repsect for less training/education.

It's from experience as well. I have interacted with more DO's while at well known institutions than I have with Carib grads. Probably at least 10:1 or more ratio. DO's don't have as great of a stigma as Carib grads as some believe.

 

[Taurus]

Opinion springs from one's own experiences.

I have nothing against DO's, btw. We're all in this together against lower experienced health practitioners trying to get the same pay/repsect for less training/education.

I have nothing against either DO's or Carib MD's. I am neither. However, if the OP is going to make a life changing decision like this, he should have as much information as possible. I am not kidding when I say I have met DO's at top 25 programs in ortho, anesthesiology, radiology programs. To be honest with you, the only Carib grads I have met were during my family medicine rotation.

 

[McGillGrad]

I have nothing against either DO's or Carib MD's. I am neither. However, if the OP is going to make a life changing decision like this, he should have as much information as possible. I am not kidding when I say I have met DO's at top 25 programs in ortho, anesthesiology, radiology programs. To be honest with you, the only Carib grads I have met were during my family medicine rotation.

Yes, DO's so manage to get great spots more often than Carib grads (as a group). And the majority of Carib grads do go into FM and IM. Facts are facts.

 

[J1515]

DO's have significantly lower USMLE pass rates than US MD's. It is 77%, to be exact. The COMLEX is not equal to the USMLE so don't try to make it seem like they are equal.

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2007.html

Have you taken both? I have.

 

[Wet Coma]

What's a DO?

 

[Wet Coma]

OK I know what a D.O. is, but seriously, some one right now get off the computer and ask someone what a D.O. is, and I bet they will not get a well-defined answer. Most people outside the medical profession do not know exactly what a D.O. is. And let's face it, is seems like everyone asks that question. What is DO?

 

[J1515]

OK I know what a D.O. is, but seriously, some one right now get off the computer and ask someone what a D.O. is, and I bet they will not get a well-defined answer. Most people outside the medical profession do not know exactly what a D.O. is. And let's face it, is seems like everyone asks that question. What is DO?

I've been through approximately 20 different hospitals so far throughout my rotations and haven't been asked that question once. Even if the time comes when I do get asked that, who cares?

Edit: Sorry...It actually came up once when a patient asked where I went to medical school. Didn't effect my H&P or treatment of the patient in the least. I'm not sure what the big deal is.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

I just went through this entire process.

DO is hands down a better option than Carribean. You can match into any residency program you want, and if you get accepted to a low tuition program you will save $$$ by going the DO route.

They myth that no one knows about DO's is completely false. I have been a clinician for 5 years now, and trust me when I tell you this......DO's are very well known, and very well respected. I have shadowed DO's at Harvard affiliated hospitals. You cant get better than that. Keep in mind that there are NO carribean grads currently at Harvard. This alone should tell you the difference between DO vs. Carribean.

Carribean is an off shore school. Yes, it will get you into a Internal med residency, but 50 yrs down the road, are you really going to take pride in a Carribean education????


Just my 2cents, take it for what its worth.

In NYC no one knows what a DO is. Every doctor or nusre I speak to knows of SGU and thinks its a good school, about half of the doctors or nurses have heard of ross.

I do not think badly of DO's and I am not saying its not the better option, I am saying thou, that it is hard to even get an opinion on it in NYC because people are not familiar with them.

 

[dragonfly99]

I find it hard to believe that a lot of people in the medical profession do not even know what a DO is. But I guess I believe you if you say so. I have never lived in NYC.

Are you saying you want to live and practice only in NYC in the future? If that is the case and they all appear familiar with SGU, then it might be an OK choice. Perhaps the better way to answer the questions you have about Carib MD vs. DO is to craft a short, polite email to program directors (i.e. doctors who administer various residency programs such as internal medicine or surgery, etc.) and send it to several people in the New York area. Ask them the question of whether they would rather accept
a) a DO graduate from a US DO school, or
b) an MD graduate from a Caribbean medical school, or SGU specifically
into their residency program if the people had identical USMLE scores.
Some of them might not answer, but I bet some would.
I am almost 100% positive that if you asked this question in the Midwest, the answer would be a DO graduate. But I am not discounting the fact that it might be different in NYC, particularly since I know that St George rotates their students through the New York area on clinicals.

IMHO, I still would not go to Ross because the USMLE board pass rate is too low. US DO schools have a generally lower USMLE pass rate than US allopathic schools, but it's still much better than most of the Caribbean schools, and that's even after a bunch of them flunked out tons of their students or didn't let them take the test at all. The DO's also have their own licensing exams, so they don't even HAVE to take the USMLE if they don't want.

I think there is a difference between one DO school and another as well...some are more "pro-DO" I'll bet, and might not like students to go into nonprimary care areas or do residency in non-DO schools. A lot of them probably won't care if you do, honestly, and might even help you set up clinical rotations at allopathic/MD residencies when you are a 4th year med student. I also think that a lot of US academic medical centers will accept visiting US 4th year med students (either MD or DO) to do elective rotations in their last year of school, and I'll bet they have more restrictions on taking IMG's (including from st George).

Speaking from 20/20 hindsight, I also think you are underestimating the importance of having a larger choice of residencies to do. You (premed) don't really know what specialty you're going to end up wanting to do, and it would be frustrating to get shut out totally. People from Carib schools basically cannot do things like derm, plastic surgery, orthopedic surgery because they can't get in. A DO probably would never get those residencies in an MD institution, but they have their own residency system so one could do ortho, etc. in a DO hospital. I can't comment on the training there but I have met DO dermatologists before but never saw a Caribbean graduate who is one.

Either way (as a DO or Carib grad from SGU) if you do well in your clinical rotations and your USMLE, you'll end up with a US residency if you're a US citizen. Primary care residencies or psych would not be a problem and quite a few other specialties would be within reach also.

 

[amanbano]

This is my third year of trying to find a residency... I want to ask that is there any way to apply to residency in Caribbean islands?

Whatt are the options, what can I do? Any guidance please.....???

 

[exPCM]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

US residency spots are not significantly increasing in number but US DO AND MD enrollments are growing rapidly. The typical future for a Carribean grad will be to spend a lot of money and not be able to get a US residency position. I consider anyone enrolling in a Carribean school at this time with the plan of practicing medicine in the US to be making a foolhardy decision. Apply broadly to US DO and MD schools and beef up your stats if possible if you want to practice medicine in the US. Carribean grads are much less respected than US DOs and MDs in the eyes of residency programs in general.

 

[McGillGrad]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

US residency spots are not significantly increasing in number but US DO AND MD enrollments are growing rapidly. The typical future for a Carribean grad will be to spend a lot of money and not be able to get a US residency position. I consider anyone enrolling in a Carribean school at this time with the plan of practicing medicine in the US to be making a foolhardy decision. Apply broadly to US DO and MD schools and beef up your stats if possible if you want to practice medicine in the US. Carribean grads are much less respected than US DOs and MDs in the eyes of residency programs in general.

Oh dear, I better committ ritual samuri suicide now that some biased orgnization made an estimate that has been made for the past decade about increasing seats.

 

[exPCM]

The enrollment increases are real. I am sorry if reality upsets some people.
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2008/enrollmentdata2008.pdf (see page 2)
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/college_growth_report_2008.pdf (see page 3).
Carribean schools will completely crash in 4-5 years as their graduates can not get into residency spots. Medicare capped the number of residents they will fund in 1996 http://www.amsa.org/pdf/Medicare_GME.pdf (see page 3).
With the US budget deficit situation a lifting of the cap (which has been in place for more than a decade) is not going to happen.
The family that started AUC likely opened up the Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine in part because they know the Carribean schools have no future and they wanted to get something going on the US mainland before their Carribean school shuts down. You are going to see a dip in the match rate for FMGs and IMGs in 2009 (which will accelerate in future years) as the classes that enrolled in 2005 are entering the match. Residency programs will also become more leery of Carribean grads since the US enrollment increases mean that stronger students will be more likely to find places in US allopathic and osteopathic schools and the Carribean schools will be dominated by weaker students in the coming years.

 

[McGillGrad]

So you back up biased estimates from biased organizations with more of the same?

Lame.

The enrollment increases are real. I am sorry if reality upsets some people.
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2008/enrollmentdata2008.pdf (see page 2)
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/college_growth_report_2008.pdf (see page 3).
Carribean schools will completely crash in 4-5 years as their graduates can not get into residency spots. Medicare capped the number of residents they will fund in 1996 http://www.amsa.org/pdf/Medicare_GME.pdf (see page 3).
With the US budget deficit situation a lifiting of the cap (whihc has been in place for more than a decade) is not going to happen.
The family that started AUC likely opened up the Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine in part because they know the Carribean schools have no future and they wanted to get something going on the US mainland before their Carribean school shuts down. You are going to see a dip in the match rate for FMGs and IMGs in 2009 (which will accelerate in future years) as the classes that enrolled in 2005 are entering the match. Residency programs will also become more leery of Carribean grads since the US enrollment increases mean that stronger students will be more likely to find places in US allopathic and osteopathic schools and the Carribean schools will be dominated by weaker students in the coming years.

 

[dragonfly99]

I don't get it. The AAMC is the organization that accredits medical schools in the U.S. Why do you think their statistics on how many students are enrolled in US medical schools is biased? Don't you think they have the correct date?
Just asking.

I know that the DO schools have been expanding a lot for sure, and I know of some MD schools that have expanded their 1st year spots as well. That will eventually mean more grads in the US pipeline...not a good thing for IMG and FMG's. It probably will take a few more years for that to make a significant impact, so students in the Carib now are still probably O.K. to get a primary care residency, but I would worry about someone thinking to go down there now. You better make sure it's one of the top 2 or 3 Carib schools if you do...

 

[exPCM]

So you back up biased estimates from biased organizations with more of the same?

Lame.

The enrollment data is not hard to compile. You just add up the enrollments at each of the individual schools. What is really lame is when someone cites the USMLE data as you did above (http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2007.html) and fails to comprehend that the USMLE data shows the same upward trend in enrollments. This is clearly seen when you look at the increasing numbers of US MD and DO students taking the USMLE for the first time. In 2007 the number of US MD first time takers of the USMLE Step 1 surpassed the 17000 mark for the first time ever! This corrresponds with the AAMC data which shows that the 2005 entering class (who in general sat for the USMLE Step 1 in 2007) was the first entering class to surpasss the 17000 mark (see page 2 of http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2008/enrollmentdata2008.pdf). In addition that 2005 entering class is now entering the 2009 NRMP match. So stick your head in the sand if you must but the data is real despite your claims of "bias". I challenge you to find any objective data to show that US MD and DO enrolling is not increasing and that there is a conspiracy by the AAMC and AACOM to falsely elevate their enrollment data.

 

[McGillGrad]

The definition of an 'estimate' certainly does not escape you. Trends are affected by so many variables that you cannot seriously base the next 6 year's numbers on groups that are openly hostile to Caribbean schools.

For example, I'll explain why med school applications were down in the mid-90s until the early 2000s. It is all about the state of the economy. When the economy is doing well, people enter the workforce directly to make money. When the economy is in the crapper, people go to professional schools. When the economy picks back up, applications will drop, and debunks your "trend."

That is only one of a number of variables.

What you don't realize is that more spots have little impact on US students because those who go to the Carib of lack of spots take those new spots. Those with low stats go to the Carib anyway. That doesn't change the balance for students. The only ones that lose are the Carib schools.

You make it seem like being a LCME grad makes an applicant superior. Just as the Hopkins/Harvard/Yale grads look at you like a reject for going to lower tier school.

Or dermatologists looking down at you for sneaking into the back door via dermopath even though you are inferior and could not get derm directly.

I love the irony of how you dog on Carib students when you did essentially the same thing by achieving your goals indirectly as a dermopath fellow.

The enrollment data is not hard to compile. You just add up the enrollments at each of the individual schools. What is really lame is when someone cites the USMLE data as you did above (http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2007.html) and fails to comprehend that the USMLE data shows the same upward trend in enrollments. This is clearly seen when you look at the increasing numbers of US MD and DO students taking the USMLE for the first time. In 2007 the number of US MD first time takers of the USMLE Step 1 surpassed the 17000 mark for the first time ever! This corrresponds with the AAMC data which shows that the 2005 entering class (who in general sat for the USMLE Step 1 in 2007) was the first entering class to surpasss the 17000 mark (see page 2 of http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2008/enrollmentdata2008.pdf). In addition that 2005 entering class is now entering the 2009 NRMP match. So stick your head in the sand if you must but the data is real despite your claims of "bias". I challenge you to find any objective data to show that US MD and DO enrolling is not increasing and that there is a conspiracy by the AAMC and AACOM to falsely elevate their enrollment data.

 

[exPCM]

The definition of an 'estimate' certainly does not escape you. Trends are affected by so many variables that you cannot seriously base the next 6 year's numbers on groups that are openly hostile to Caribbean schools.

For example, I'll explain why med school applications were down in the mid-90s until the early 2000s. It is all about the state of the economy. When the economy is doing well, people enter the workforce directly to make money. When the economy is in the crapper, people go to professional schools. When the economy picks back up, applications will drop, and debunks your "trend."

That is only one of a number of variables.

What you don't realize is that more spots have little impact on US students because those who go to the Carib of lack of spots take those new spots. Those with low stats go to the Carib anyway. That doesn't change the balance for students. The only ones that lose are the Carib schools.

You make it seem like being a LCME grad makes an applicant superior. Just as the Hopkins/Harvard/Yale grads look at you like a reject for going to lower tier school.

Or dermatologists looking down at you for sneaking into the back door via dermopath even though you are inferior and could not get derm directly.

I love the irony of how you dog on Carib students when you did essentially the same thing by achieving your goals indirectly as a dermopath fellow.

I think you have headed off on a different tangent here. The enrollments are going up. I have presented factual data. If applications do happen to drop all that would mean is less students going to Carribean schools and the US schools will still be ramping up their enrollment. The fact is that top US students in general will go to US schools and not Carribean schools when given the choice. That is a fact and I am sorry if it offends you. I do agree that with the new spots the "only ones that lose are the Carib schools". I am not an AAMC insider and I do not know if one of the reasons for the enrollment increases includes the destruction of the Carribean schools but the Carribean schools will definitely lose as you stated. These enrollment figures are actual numbers and not estimates as you claim. Multiple new US medical schools are opening up and that is a fact and not an estimate. I am not going to respond to personal attacks. I will let the facts speak for themselves and the readers of this site can reach their own conclusions. I will check back at this forum after the match confirms the declining prospects for Carribean grads. P.S. I have no animosity towards Carribean grads and I have met fine doctors from Carribean schools. However, I would advise students against going to Carribean schools at this time for reasons I have stated above.