Should we have single-payer healthcare?

[coldcase331]

Medicare was passed in 1965, the next (failed) opportunity for health reform was Nixon's proposal in 1974, but Ted Kennedy walked away thinking he could get something better if he waited. Almost 20 years later we had a shot at Hillarycare 1.0, which also failed. The ACA was signed in 2010 but only after threading a legislative needle (remember Scott Brown?).

So basically it took almost half a century to get from Medicare to the ACA. We aren't starting over again any time soon.

I agree with that, but I don't think forcing people to have health insurance is ethical. Plus it ended up hurting everyone, because those that originally fell in the middle area between the poverty line and being able to afford insurance weren't helped. Most of them are getting stuck with the penalties because they can't afford the premiums because of a lack of signups on the exchanges. Plus many insurance companies are withdrawing from the exchanges because they lost so much money. United lost approximately one billion dollars from the exchange. I just find it fascinating when politicians believe that healthcare is magically excluded from the laws of economics.

If we really want to look at the root of the WHOLE problem, I think it's our education system. Unfortunately we've developed into a society that has created a two party belief system. One side has heartfelt intentions, but with the economic literacy of a hamster. The other side has strong economic policy, but use religion and stubbornness to block social equality. I say we put healthcare on the back burner and spend money to fix K-12, that way we can make a new generation that can align with strong economic policy AND social equality to fix healthcare 30 years from now.

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[Mad Jack]

This impulse to compare the VA, which goes back through numerous administrations, to what a national system would look like is just bizarre.

Yes, because CMS, DHHS, the Joint Commission, etc just will stop existing in addition to whatever godforsaken NHS-like bureaucracy results. It'll be a damn mess.

 

[justreachforthesky]

I agree with that, but I don't think forcing people to have health insurance is ethical. Plus it ended up hurting everyone, because those that originally fell in the middle area between the poverty line and being able to afford insurance weren't helped. Most of them are getting stuck with the penalties because they can't afford the premiums because of a lack of signups on the exchanges. Plus many insurance companies are withdrawing from the exchanges because they lost so much money. United lost approximately one billion dollars from the exchange. I just find it fascinating when politicians believe that healthcare is magically excluded from the laws of economics.

By the same token you can argue that taxes are unethical... and that car insurance is unethical.. etc. But these evils make it possible for a society function. When things go wrong and an uninsured isn't.. well... insured... then everyone else foots the bill.

If we really want to look at the root of the WHOLE problem, I think it's our education system. Unfortunately we've developed into a society that has created a two party belief system. One side has heartfelt intentions, but with the economic literacy of a hamster. The other side has strong economic policy, but use religion and stubbornness to block social equality. I say we put healthcare on the back burner and spend money to fix K-12, that way we can make a new generation that can align with strong economic policy AND social equality to fix healthcare 30 years from now.

I would argue that although a two party system is not perfect, it is better than the alternatives. I've seen every example and then some (poli sci major) and a two party democratic system is just the best we have. If you don't think so, show me a viable alternative in the globalization era that has been attempted and succeeded. Michio Kaku reiterates these points much more eloquently than I can, do a google search or look it up on YouTube if you really want the other side of the argument.

 

[heebeejeebies]

Explain to me why the well-off Canadians come here for their medical needs? We have medicaid for the underserved and we can help deliver care to more underserved population if more states would agree to the medicaid expansion. However, imposing state-owned healthcare on me when I am satisfied with my private HMO is unethical and violates my autonomy.

Explain to me why some well-off Americans are voting for Trump? Because some people are stupid. Beyond that, some Canadians travel to avoid waiting times for elective procedures (which are a problem, yes, but not one solved by a multipayer system) or to satisfy the perception/logical fallacy that if a service costs more it is undoubtedly of higher quality, that's really the bulk of it. Lastly, the border hoppers are really a very exaggerated occurrence.

Being imposed upon, violations of autonomy... oh boy, cry me a river. Maybe we should privatize the police and firefighter forces, that way you can pay an annual fee to a company that maintains your autonomy. You should have the option of subscribing to law enforcement and firefighting services that fit your needs! Silver spoon meet butt.

I'm not sure why I'm surprised so many medical hopefuls are opposed to universal healthcare. Most of you are the sons and daughters of the wealthy and have probably had this notion instilled in you from birth. Or alternatively it's to line your pockets. Oh well.

 

[coldcase331]

Explain to me why some well-off Americans are voting for Trump? Because some people are stupid. Beyond that, some Canadians travel to avoid waiting times for elective procedures (which are a problem, yes, but not one solved by a multipayer system) or to satisfy the perception/logical fallacy that if a service costs more it is undoubtedly of higher quality, that's really the bulk of it. Lastly, the border hoppers are really a very exaggerated occurrence.

Being imposed upon, violations of autonomy... oh boy, cry me a river. Maybe we should privatize the police and firefighter forces, that way you can pay an annual fee to a company that maintains your autonomy. You should have the option of subscribing to law enforcement and firefighting services that fit your needs! Silver spoon meet butt.

I'm not sure why I'm surprised so many medical hopefuls are opposed to universal healthcare. Most of you are the sons and daughters of the wealthy and have probably had this notion instilled in you from birth. Or alternatively it's to line your pockets. Oh well.

The fact that you think all of us are wealthy and spoiled is completely rediculous, it's just basic economics. If we are investing all this time and have a high opportunity cost to pursue this field, we should be compensated accordingly.


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[justreachforthesky]

Zero qualifications? You might be surprised at the credentials of some of the people who work in those offices. Now I'm not a big fan of a lot of congressmen but they are on 2 year contracts.

Lol. There are 19 physicians that are currently serving in congress. It pales in comparison to the number of businessmen and lawyers. Physicians have a case of underrepresentation, the nursing unions have put physicians to shame.. relative to cost of education, time spent educating, etc, nurses got doctors beat. That is just one example of how political power does not equal credentials. Get your head out of the sand.

 

[heebeejeebies]

The fact that you think all of us are wealthy and spoiled is completely rediculous, it's just basic economics. If we are investing all this time and have a high opportunity cost to pursue this field, we should be compensated accordingly.


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It's not basic economics. It's a system that is broken. I agree that physicians should be paid according to the difficulty of the work and the great length of their training. That was never the purpose of my comments. The fact is, on the whole most of you are wealthy or from wealthy roots, it's not just me spouting bitter lies:

For fun, just look at the median household income of medical school matriculants compared to that of the regular household. Pretty astonishing disparities. Physicians should demographically reflect the population they serve. My research is in health economics and the appraisal of financial barriers to access to medical services, you'd be astonished at the stories the data tells.

 

[justreachforthesky]

The fact that you think all of us are wealthy and spoiled is completely rediculous, it's just basic economics. If we are investing all this time and have a high opportunity cost to pursue this field, we should be compensated accordingly.


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Although I agree that physicians should be compensated a lot better (amongst many other things), economics does NOT state a relationship like that. Rather, it is centered around a simple concept: supply and demand.. there are PhDs who used to make a killing and now aren't paid jack. You can have 10 PhDs and it does not mean you are going to be paid accordingly. I'm going to keep reiterating my point that psychology on the MCAT should be replaced with economics for the good of all future physicians.

 

[Med Ed]

I agree with that, but I don't think forcing people to have health insurance is ethical.

I will let the Heritage Foundation field this one. In 1989 they published a proposal entitled "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans," which was written by Stuart M. Butler, Ph.D. You can find the full text online if you look for it. That little ditty was the site of origin for the individual mandate. Here is the relevant part:

Mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance.
Many states now require passengers in automobiles to wear seat belts for their own protection. Many others require anybody driving a car to have liability insurance. But neither the federal government nor any state requires all households to protect themselves from the potentially catastrophic costs of a serious accident or illness. Under the Heritage plan, there would be such a requirement.

This mandate is based on two important principles. First, that health care protection is a responsibility of individuals, not businesses. Thus to the extent that anybody should be required to provide coverage to a family, the household mandate assumes that it is the family that carries the first responsibility.

Second, it assumes that there is an implicit contract between households and society, based on the notion that health insurance is not like other forms of insurance protection. If a young man wrecks his Porsche and has not had the foresight to obtain insurance, we may commiserate but society feels no obligation to repair his car. But health care is different. If a man is struck down by a heart attack in the street, Americans will care for him whether or not he has insurance. If we find that he has spent his money on other things rather than insurance, we may be angry but we will not deny him services - even if that means more prudent citizens end up paying the tab. A mandate on individuals recognizes this implicit contract. Society does feel a moral obligation to insure that its citizens do not suffer from the unavailability of health care. But on the other hand, each household has the obligation, to the extent it is able, to avoid placing demands on society by protecting itself.

Plus it ended up hurting everyone, because those that originally fell in the middle area between the poverty line and being able to afford insurance weren't helped.

The ACA subsidizes premiums for those earning up to 400% of the poverty line, which is over $88,000 for a family of four, with a cap at 9.5% of income.

I'm not here to defend the ACA, btw, but if history is any guide we will be living with it for some time.

 

[MDProspect]

Explain to me why some well-off Americans are voting for Trump? Because some people are stupid. Beyond that, some Canadians travel to avoid waiting times for elective procedures (which are a problem, yes, but not one solved by a multipayer system) or to satisfy the perception/logical fallacy that if a service costs more it is undoubtedly of higher quality, that's really the bulk of it. Lastly, the border hoppers are really a very exaggerated occurrence.

Being imposed upon, violations of autonomy... oh boy, cry me a river. Maybe we should privatize the police and firefighter forces, that way you can pay an annual fee to a company that maintains your autonomy. You should have the option of subscribing to law enforcement and firefighting services that fit your needs! Silver spoon meet butt.

I'm not sure why I'm surprised so many medical hopefuls are opposed to universal healthcare. Most of you are the sons and daughters of the wealthy and have probably had this notion instilled in you from birth. Or alternatively it's to line your pockets. Oh well.

I am by no means well-off, and I am considering voting for Trump, because I am tired of being lied to and getting screwed. I've been in this country since Clinton was in office and since then there wasn't a single candidate who was for the middle-class. I am aware that Trump is a clown and would be the worst president ever, but I am expecting the system to implode because of him and America going through major reforms for the better.

The fact that I would have to wait a month or more to see a doctor just because the gov't doesn't think that my condition isn't an emergency is utterly ridiculous.
An EMT would be equivalent to a cop or to a fire fighter, but not a doctor. The amount of training and self-sacrifice that a doctor undergoes puts them in their own category.

Lining my pockets? So by your logic, doctors don't deserve to get compensated based on amount of stress, skill, emotional and physical involvement that the job requires. Let's just give all the power to the people who have no idea how any of this works so we can help the underserved, even though, under the current system, everyone can still see a doctor and get any procedure done regardless of their ability to pay.

 

[heebeejeebies]

I am by no means well-off, and I am considering voting for Trump, because I am tired of being lied to and getting screwed. I've been in this country since Clinton was in office and since then there wasn't a single candidate who was for the middle-class. I am aware that Trump is a clown and would be the worst president ever, but I am expecting the system to implode because of him and America going through major reforms for the better.

The fact that I would have to wait a month or more to see a doctor just because the gov't doesn't think that my condition isn't an emergency is utterly ridiculous.
An EMT would be equivalent to a cop or to a fire fighter, but not a doctor. The amount of training and self-sacrifice that a doctor undergoes puts them in their own category.

Lining my pockets? So by your logic, doctors don't deserve to get compensated based on amount of stress, skill, emotional and physical involvement that the job requires. Let's just give all the power to the people who have no idea how any of this works so we can help the underserved, even though, under the current system, everyone can still see a doctor and get any procedure done regardless of their ability to pay.

The idea that you would let your country burn in order for it to be rebuilt is astonishing and pathetic.

No one waits for a month for anything remotely necessary, stop being a fool. Self-sacrifice... man don't make doctors out to be medical martyrs battling for the health and well-being of the sick and destitute. The S-Class in their driveway doesn't lend well to that idea.

Doctors do deserve to be compensated, and they ARE. Doctors, even in Canada, are MORE than fairly reimbursed for their work, and they know it full well. You literally have 0 understanding of the purpose of insurance in the realm of health economics and how universal systems have some key advantages in that regard (not least of all the risk pooling benefit), so this conversation is farcical and based on personal anecdotal experiences.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Lol. There are 19 physicians that are currently serving in congress. It pales in comparison to the number of businessmen and lawyers. Physicians have a case of underrepresentation, the nursing unions have put physicians to shame.. relative to cost of education, time spent educating, etc, nurses got doctors beat. That is just one example of how political power does not equal credentials. Get your head out of the sand.

LOL. You just made my point. 19 physicians in congress? A bunch of lawyers and businessmen? Sounds like a far cry from having "zero credentials" as MadJack suggested. You would think those 19 physicians along with the AMA could do a better job. Do nurses have some special witchcraft powers? Heard of Rand Paul and Ben Carson? There is no reason physicians could not do a better job especially given the importance of healthcare as an issue in this country.

As to your prior comment, sure, 174K sounds pretty good. But not for 2 year contracts in one of the most expensive cities to live in the USA. Certainly not close to a very dependable 225-250K (omn the low end) for 25-35+ years.

 

[justreachforthesky]

LOL. You just made my point. 19 physicians in congress? A bunch of lawyers and businessmen? Sounds like a far cry from having "zero credentials" as MadJack suggested. You would think those 19 physicians along with the AMA could do a better job. Do nurses have some special witchcraft powers? Heard of Rand Paul and Ben Carson? There is no reason physicians could not do a better job especially given the importance of healthcare as an issue in this country.

As to your prior comment, sure, 174K sounds pretty good. But not for 2 year contracts in one of the most expensive cities to live in the USA. Certainly not close to a very dependable 225-250K (omn the low end) for 25-35+ years.

If you think 19 physicians in congress is going to solve this countries health care problems, then your head is deeper in the sand than I thought.

EDIT: I just realized I should let you know this, because it dawned on me that you probably don't: congress, and most of politics in general, is made up of politicians that don't necessarily have M.D.s, D.O.s, PhDs, etc. You don't need a degree in something fancy to get elected, and this is how the cookie usually crumbles.

 

[Nietzschelover]

If you think 19 physicians in congress is going to solve this countries health care problems, then your head is deeper in the sand than I thought.

I think you may need to get some fresh air. The point is that there is some representation and please offer a credible reason why physicians should not have a more influential lobby, and excatly why the profession is incapable of that.

 

[justreachforthesky]

I think you may need to get some fresh air. The point is that there is some representation and please offer a credible reason why physicians should not have a more influential lobby, and excatly why the profession is incapable of that.

Do me a few favors first:

1) Point out where I stated that physicians shouldn't have a more influential lobby
2) Stop making things up
3) Stop procrastinating on your intro chem classes or whatever you're doing on these boards

BY THE WAY, I informed you that there are only 19 physicians in congress to show you how LITTLE representation there is, not that "there is some representation." You're a guy on a message board that has no freaking clue what he's talking about. It's like trying to listen to a 4th grader tell me about sex.

 

[Mad Jack]

By the same token you can argue that taxes are unethical... and that car insurance is unethical.. etc. But these evils make it possible for a society function. When things go wrong and an uninsured isn't.. well... insured... then everyone else foots the bill.



I would argue that although a two party system is not perfect, it is better than the alternatives. I've seen every example and then some (poli sci major) and a two party democratic system is just the best we have. If you don't think so, show me a viable alternative in the globalization era that has been attempted and succeeded. Michio Kaku reiterates these points much more eloquently than I can, do a google search or look it up on YouTube if you really want the other side of the argument.

How about the European multiparty system that often awards representatives in proportion to the amount of the popular vote their party captures?

 

[coldcase331]

It's not basic economics. It's a system that is broken. I agree that physicians should be paid according to the difficulty of the work and the great length of their training. That was never the purpose of my comments. The fact is, on the whole most of you are wealthy or from wealthy roots, it's not just me spouting bitter lies:

For fun, just look at the median household income of medical school matriculants compared to that of the regular household. Pretty astonishing disparities. Physicians should demographically reflect the population they serve. My research is in health economics and the appraisal of financial barriers to access to medical services, you'd be astonished at the stories the data tells.

Well the problem is that to get into medical school, one must go through undergrad as well. So it will never reach a point where doctor's economic backgrounds will truly reflect that of the overall population. And providing college to everyone to "counteract" this effect only makes the value of a college degree worthless.

 

[justreachforthesky]

How about the European multiparty system that often awards representatives in proportion to the amount of the popular vote their party captures?

Although I admire the recently acquired standards of living enjoyed there, these countries are just not as politically or financially stable as the U.S. Take, for example, the euro:

In little more than a decade, a lot of policies have shifted the economy in directions that a two party system involved in a tug of war would have never allowed. Yes, the U.S. political climate is two extremes, but we have systems that really correct themselves while other systems will be slow to do so. It is a much more complicated discussion than what can go on SDN, but democracy is the best option and there are plenty of arguments for its variations.

 

[Mad Jack]

Do me a few favors first:

1) Point out where I stated that physicians shouldn't have a more influential lobby
2) Stop making things up
3) Stop procrastinating on your intro chem classes or whatever you're doing on these boards

BY THE WAY, I informed you that there are only 19 physicians in congress to show you how LITTLE representation there is, not that "there is some representation." You're a guy on a message board that has no freaking clue what he's talking about. It's like trying to listen to a 4th grader tell me about sex.

He's a psychologist

 

[heebeejeebies]

Although I admire the recently acquired standards of living enjoyed there, these countries are just not as politically or financially stable as the U.S. Take, for example, the euro:

View attachment 202082

In little more than a decade, a lot of policies have shifted the economy in directions that a two party system involved in a tug of war would have never allowed. Yes, the U.S. political climate is two extremes, but we have systems that really correct themselves while other systems will be slow to do so. It is a much more complicated discussion than what can go on SDN, but democracy is the best option and there are plenty of arguments for its variations.

The Euro's performance vs the dollar is a piss poor way to appraise the efficacy of those multiparty representative governments with socialist leanings, and you know it. The Euro is driven by the economies of 19 countries with separate and discordant political systems. The two party system is broken. Just look at the filibustering that goes on anytime the opposition controls the Senate. How's the Supreme Court Justice nomination stuff going in this best-we-have system of yours? Oh right.

 

[justreachforthesky]

He's a psychologist

I don't care, then tell him to go back to seeing his patients then. He makes things up and puts words into mouths. I don't even see his verification, this is the internet and this is the right place to take things with a huge grain of salt.

 

[Mad Jack]

Although I admire the recently acquired standards of living enjoyed there, these countries are just not as politically or financially stable as the U.S. Take, for example, the euro:

View attachment 202082

In little more than a decade, a lot of policies have shifted the economy in directions that a two party system involved in a tug of war would have never allowed. Yes, the U.S. political climate is two extremes, but we have systems that really correct themselves while other systems will be slow to do so. It is a much more complicated discussion than what can go on SDN, but democracy is the best option and there are plenty of arguments for its variations.

Their economic stagnation is a result is overspending on socialist programs, which are simply a result of their favoring liberal politics over conservative ones. Given that the majority of Americans are fiscally conservative, I highly doubt such a failure would occur here

 

[justreachforthesky]

The Euro's performance vs the dollar is a piss poor way to appraise the efficacy of those multiparty representative governments with socialist leanings, and you know it. The Euro is driven by the economies of 19 countries with separate and discordant political systems. The two party system is broken. Just look at the filibustering that goes on anytime the opposition controls the Senate. How's the Supreme Court Justice nomination stuff going in this best-we-have system of yours? Oh right.

Then move to Europe and enjoy being paid the same as a teacher. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Their economic stagnation is a result is overspending on socialist programs, which are simply a result of their favoring liberal politics over conservative ones. Given that the majority of Americans are fiscally conservative, I highly doubt such a failure would occur here

You have no idea what you're talking about, stick to psychology bud. The pre-med forums are a joke here, no wonder the residents and physicians hate the neurotic pre-meds.

 

[heebeejeebies]

Then move to Europe and enjoy being paid the same as a teacher. Put your money where your mouth is.

I'm in Canada, which just so happens to also have a multiparty parliamentary system, planning on staying here to avoid the likes of you.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Do me a few favors first:

1) Point out where I stated that physicians shouldn't have a more influential lobby
2) Stop making things up
3) Stop procrastinating on your intro chem classes or whatever you're doing on these boards

BY THE WAY, I informed you that there are only 19 physicians in congress to show you how LITTLE representation there is, not that "there is some representation." You're a guy on a message board that has no freaking clue what he's talking about. It's like trying to listen to a 4th grader tell me about sex.

Maybe you can clarify your point(s) again so that I'm not "making things up." I thought you were arguing that physicians are systemically screwed and could never advocate for their profession in a single payer system. Then you told us there is actually some representation in congress. It takes one congressperson to introduce legislation, adjustments, etc. Those 19 also might be effective consulting with a greater number of their colleagues in congress to gain even more support if they have credible arguments.

Finally, how about showing just smidge of respect for your fellow posters instead of flying off half-cocked with insults.

 

[justreachforthesky]

I'm in Canada, which just so happens to also have a multiparty parliamentary system, planning on staying here to avoid the likes of you.

Same exact concept, you are paid significantly less money without any account of how much education and time went into acquiring your skill. Here is an article for you to digest slowly:

"Canadian Doctors Still Make Dramatically Less Than US Counterparts"
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...dramatically-less-than-u-s-counterparts-study

 

[Nietzschelover]

You have no idea what you're talking about, stick to psychology bud. The pre-med forums are a joke here, no wonder the residents and physicians hate the neurotic pre-meds.

Oh, I see you're trolling after everyone. Hope you enjoyed your stay.

 

[heebeejeebies]

Same exact concept, you are paid significantly less money without any account of how much education and time went into acquiring your skill. Here is an article for you to digest slowly:

"Canadian Doctors Still Make Dramatically Less Than US Counterparts"
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...dramatically-less-than-u-s-counterparts-study

And I'm totally fine with making a more than acceptable income here, as are the thousands and thousands of other medical students, residents and physicians who believe in a system built on a basis of equity. Your greed will be your downfall.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Maybe you can clarify your point(s) again so that I'm not "making things up." I thought you were arguing that physicians are systemically screwed and could never advocate for their profession in a single payer system. Then you told us there is actually some representation in congress. It takes one congressperson to introduce legislation, adjustments, etc. Those 19 also might be effective consulting with a greater number of their colleagues in congress to gain even more support if they have credible arguments.

Finally, how about showing just smidge of respect for your fellow posters instead of flying off half-cocked with insults.

You accused me of being against physicians right to lobby, you most certainly did not read any of my posts which show the opposite. Just because I have a stance against an economics post you made doesn't make it right for you to make things up. I'm not going to get into a debate with you about politics, but 19 physicians is a relatively tiny representation if you want to get things done.

 

[justreachforthesky]

And I'm totally fine with making a more than acceptable income here, as are the thousands and thousands of other medical students, residents and physicians who believe in a system built on a basis of equity. Your greed will be your downfall.

Lol. Your buddy posted about the economics and the effect of the political system in the United States v.s. Europe. I am refuting you and your buddies claims, because frankly you guys don't know anything about economics or politics and your threads certainly show it. Your friend fabricated things that clearly weren't stated in this thread or anywhere else, and now that you have nothing you start saying things like I am greedy. Get a life.

 

[Mad Jack]

You have no idea what you're talking about, stick to psychology bud. The pre-med forums are a joke here, no wonder the residents and physicians hate the neurotic pre-meds.

I'm actually a major in the Psychic Sciences, and I'm seeing a ban in your future. Disrespectful attacks of other members (rather than their arguments) are unacceptable behavior on the forums.
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

 

[justreachforthesky]

I'm actually a major in the Psychic Sciences, and I'm seeing a ban in your future. Disrespectful attacks of other members (rather than their arguments) are unacceptable behavior on the forums.
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

Dude, just let it go already. This is the internet. If you want to make more money doing your job, you take it in the U.S. Just because most people are staying in the U.S. doesn't make me or anyone here greedy or will have "greed" be anyones "downfall." If you distort what people say or make things up like you did, they will get offended. That doesn't make someone a "troll." Politics is opinionated, agree to disagree on that point. Maybe you should stop assuming so many things and actually read what someone has written instead.

 

[Mad Jack]

And I'm totally fine with making a more than acceptable income here, as are the thousands and thousands of other medical students, residents and physicians who believe in a system built on a basis of equity. Your greed will be your downfall.

Only a person with backwards values would view wanting to provide your own family with the best life and opportunities possible as a vice, while making your family substantially worse off to help strangers to be a virtue.

 

[heebeejeebies]

Lol. Your buddy posted about the economics and the effect of the political system in the United States v.s. Europe. I am refuting you and your buddies claims, because frankly you guys don't know anything about economics or politics and your threads certainly show it. Your friend fabricated things that clearly weren't stated in this thread or anywhere else, and now that you have nothing you start saying things like I am greedy. Get a life.

Good luck on your journey to medical school, you'll certainly need it.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Only a person with backwards values would view wanting to provide your own family with the best life and opportunities possible as a vice, while making your family substantially worse off to help strangers to be a virtue.

Aw, I thought you guys were friends lol now you're "trolling" him?

 

[heebeejeebies]

Only a person with backwards values would view wanting to provide your own family with the best life and opportunities possible as a vice, while making your family substantially worse off to help strangers to be a virtue.

Substantially worse off? You're the one with backwards values. Physician wages in Canada in a single payer system are more than fair.

 

[Mad Jack]

Substantially worse off? You're the one with backwards values. Physician wages in Canada in a single payer system are more than fair.

Yes, substantially worse off. The difference between Canadian and American wages is PROFOUND, especially for specialists. Canadian anesthesiologists earn $193,906 CDN ($148,688.38 USD) while their US counterparts earn $358,000 USD. That is SUBSTANTIALLY worse off. That's over 7 million dollars plus year-over-year stock returns in difference over a working lifetime. That's enough income that, if you invested it all, your children AND grandchildren would be well taken care of via trusts, having their college paid for, etc. And if you don't have kids, that's the difference between being able to retire at 45 versus 65. That's a lot of money to lose, and is the difference between being wealthy or being a wage slave that depends on their paycheck until they die.

 

[663697]

Yes, substantially worse off. The difference between Canadian and American wages is PROFOUND, especially for specialists. Canadian anesthesiologists earn $193,906 CDN ($148,688.38 USD) while their US counterparts earn $358,000 USD. That is SUBSTANTIALLY worse off. That's over 7 million dollars plus year-over-year stock returns in difference over a working lifetime. That's enough income that, if you invested it all, your children AND grandchildren would be well taken care of via trusts, having their college paid for, etc. And if you don't have kids, that's the difference between being able to retire at 45 versus 65. That's a lot of money to lose, and is the difference between being wealthy or being a wage slave that depends on their paycheck until they die.

The difference between Canadian and American medical school tuition is also profound.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Substantially worse off? You're the one with backwards values. Physician wages in Canada in a single payer system are more than fair.

You forget that medical school in Canada costs less than 10 k a year. We've got compounding interest from the day we walk into medical school. Risk versus reward, idk.

The difference between Canadian and American medical school tuition is also profound.

What does it come out to, the difference in a year and a half U.S. salary? You're still retiring 25 years later.. ok 24 years later. I'm going to reiterate my point that economics should be put on the MCAT.

 

[heebeejeebies]

You forget that medical school in Canada costs less than 10 k a year. We've got compounding interest from the day we walk into medical school. Risk versus reward, idk.

It doesn't, but I'll take that as a sign of your unfamiliarity with the Canadian system.

 

[justreachforthesky]

It doesn't, but I'll take that as a sign of your unfamiliarity with the Canadian system.

Either way you slice it, Americans take on a much bigger risk from pre-med, to medical school, to loans, to being sued, not being reimbursed by insurance companies, etc. and etc.

 

[MDProspect]

This thread became a s*t show. Who cares about the European multiparty system and our two party democracy. We are all somewhere in medicine, not politics. If your biggest issue is the wage change that might happen with the single payer system then you shouldn't be in medicine in the first place. It seems that no one on here actually cares what's going to happen to the patients under the new system. Your salary as a physician isn't going mean a thing if you have a stroke tomorrow and won't be able to work.

 

[heebeejeebies]

This thread became a s*t show. Who cares about the European multiparty system and our two party democracy. We are all somewhere in medicine, not politics. If your biggest issue is the wage change that might happen with the single payer system then you shouldn't be in medicine in the first place. It seems that no one on here actually cares what's going to happen to the patients under the new system. Your salary as a physician isn't going mean a thing if you have a stroke tomorrow and won't be able to work.

Well by that metric, the vast majority of people in countries with single payer systems prefer their universal coverage over privatized care.

Beyond this, anytime two-tier systems come into the political forum (injected by conservative parties and pundits), the backlash is overwhelming and shuts the argument down very very quickly:

So here's the situation. In single payer, the overwhelming majority has historically and repeatedly preferred their system. In private systems, there is a growing contingent that is backing single payer, and their numbers will only grow and their voices will only get louder. I mean, Bernie Sanders will not win this year, but his health care mandate, and the support he's getting for it, speaks volumes for the direction America is trending in, whether you like it or not.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Well by that metric, the vast majority of people in countries with single payer systems prefer their universal coverage over privatized care.

Beyond this, anytime two-tier systems come into the political forum (injected by conservative parties and pundits), the backlash is overwhelming and shuts the argument down very very quickly:

So here's the situation. In single payer, the overwhelming majority has historically and repeatedly preferred their system. In private systems, there is a growing contingent that is backing single payer, and their numbers will only grow and their voices will only get louder. I mean, Bernie Sanders will not win this year, but his health care mandate, and the support he's getting for it, speaks volumes for the direction America is trending in, whether you like it or not.

Way to link an article that gives a survey before the Affordable Care Act was implemented. Come on man, something newer than 2008 would be nice.

 

[heebeejeebies]

Way to link an article that gives a survey before the Affordable Care Act was implemented. Come on man, something newer than 2008 would be nice.

So the implementation of the ACA, which is in and of itself a tiny baby step away from a rigidly private system, might sway Canadians to prefer an American system? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Mad Jack]

It doesn't, but I'll take that as a sign of your unfamiliarity with the Canadian system.

https://meds.queensu.ca/blog/undergraduate/?p=1807

Is it a problem, or just a shrewd investment?

By the end of his or her medical education, the average Canadian graduate will owe $71,721. That amount, which has increased by about 7.3% over the past 5 years, may seem either huge or trivial depending on your perspective and stage of life. Interpretation might be enhanced with a few more details:

• 17.5% manage to get through medical school with no debt at all, a figure that has not changed over the past 5 years.
• on the other extreme, 6.2% report debts of over $200,000, which has increased from 4.1% in 2010
• 28.3% report already having debt before even entering medical school (26.4% in 2010), with an average premedical indebtedness of $7,465 or, perhaps more telling, an average of $27,094 for those who report any debt (comparing to $6,506 and $25,968 respectively for 2010).
• 32.5% report having accumulated “non-educational debt” during medical school (eg. credit cards, car loans, mortages) averaging $23,976 (comparing with $31,455 in 2010)
• 28% feel that the amount of financial assistance available to them fails to meet their needs (compared to 31.5% in 2010)
• 3.7% report “no need for financial assistance” (unchanged over the past 5 years)

https://members.aamc.org/eweb/uploa...r Graduating Medical School Students 2015.pdf

 

[justreachforthesky]

So the implementation of the ACA, which is in and of itself a tiny baby step away from a rigidly private system, might sway Canadians to prefer an American system? Is that what you're saying?

Dude, bottom line is this.. if you're going to link a survey about how doctors feel about the direction ACA is heading in, at least link one that happened after it was signed into law and made its way into their hospitals and clinics.

 

[heebeejeebies]

https://meds.queensu.ca/blog/undergraduate/?p=1807

Is it a problem, or just a shrewd investment?

By the end of his or her medical education, the average Canadian graduate will owe $71,721. That amount, which has increased by about 7.3% over the past 5 years, may seem either huge or trivial depending on your perspective and stage of life. Interpretation might be enhanced with a few more details:

• 17.5% manage to get through medical school with no debt at all, a figure that has not changed over the past 5 years.
• on the other extreme, 6.2% report debts of over $200,000, which has increased from 4.1% in 2010
• 28.3% report already having debt before even entering medical school (26.4% in 2010), with an average premedical indebtedness of $7,465 or, perhaps more telling, an average of $27,094 for those who report any debt (comparing to $6,506 and $25,968 respectively for 2010).
• 32.5% report having accumulated “non-educational debt” during medical school (eg. credit cards, car loans, mortages) averaging $23,976 (comparing with $31,455 in 2010)
• 28% feel that the amount of financial assistance available to them fails to meet their needs (compared to 31.5% in 2010)
• 3.7% report “no need for financial assistance” (unchanged over the past 5 years)

https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Education Debt Manager for Graduating Medical School Students 2015.pdf
View attachment 202095

Yeah, I don't see what your argument here. The original claim is that medical school in Canada is <10k per year... only a tiny fraction of students in Quebec (for residents of Quebec only) pay <$10,000 per year.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah, I don't see what your argument here. The original claim is that medical school in Canada is <10k per year... only a tiny fraction of students in Quebec (for residents of Quebec only) pay <$10,000 per year.

I was simply showing that there is a substantial debt difference. I mean, I'm out literally a million dollars by the time I'm done with a fellowship between opportunity costs and the 400k in loans I'll be sitting on.