should I take the mcat a 4th time? looking for advice

[trueheater43]

My MCAT history:
Sept 2022: 500 (125/125/125/125)
May 2023: 508 (125/125/130/128)
Mar 2024: 507 (129/125/125/128)

cGPA is 3.38, sGPA is 3.16. No upward trend, my GPA fluctuated a lot over the last 2 years.
Ive gotten advice that I should apply DO, which I plan to do. But I would also like to apply to MD schools, and I feel very strongly that this recent 507 score was a fluke. Had my bio/biochem score stayed the same, I would have gotten a 512.
Ive considered that my bio/biochem score decreased from last year likely because I put in a lot of effort to get my chem/phys score up, and I underestimated the amount of bio/biochem practice I would have to do this time. And for CARS, I need to improve it by doing an hour of practice at a time to mimic the exam conditions for the CARS section, rather than one passage at a time where I usually score near perfect and overestimate myself.

Will it look bad for me to take the exam a fourth time? I already have the may 4th date scheduled, and plan on cancelling ahead of time or voiding it on test day if my FL scores leading up to it aren't >95th percentile. I know I can do better but I have heard there is the risk that some schools will look down on the exam being taken a fourth time, even though I've seen stories of other people who got admitted with a 4th mcat. I feel like my situation with my score history is really unique though, since other people usually stay at a plateau for 3 times and then the 4th time is the charm.
I know emory college in georgia screens out people who have 3+ mcat attempts, but I don't know of any other schools that do so. I also know there are some schools that do a superscore with all of an applicant's best subsections from their attempts, so that does help me a little if I decide to not take it.
Would greatly appreciate advice on how to proceed. Thank you.

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[Calizboosted76]

My MCAT history:
Sept 2022: 500 (125/125/125/125)
May 2023: 508 (125/125/130/128)
Mar 2024: 507 (129/125/125/128)

cGPA is 3.38, sGPA is 3.16. No upward trend, my GPA fluctuated a lot over the last 2 years.
Ive gotten advice that I should apply DO, which I plan to do. But I would also like to apply to MD schools, and I feel very strongly that this recent 507 score was a fluke. Had my bio/biochem score stayed the same, I would have gotten a 512.
Ive considered that my bio/biochem score decreased from last year likely because I put in a lot of effort to get my chem/phys score up, and I underestimated the amount of bio/biochem practice I would have to do this time. And for CARS, I need to improve it by doing an hour of practice at a time to mimic the exam conditions for the CARS section, rather than one passage at a time where I usually score near perfect and overestimate myself.

Will it look bad for me to take the exam a fourth time? I already have the may 4th date scheduled, and plan on cancelling ahead of time or voiding it on test day if my FL scores leading up to it aren't >95th percentile. I know I can do better but I have heard there is the risk that some schools will look down on the exam being taken a fourth time, even though I've seen stories of other people who got admitted with a 4th mcat. I feel like my situation with my score history is really unique though, since other people usually stay at a plateau for 3 times and then the 4th time is the charm.
I know emory college in georgia screens out people who have 3+ mcat attempts, but I don't know of any other schools that do so. I also know there are some schools that do a superscore with all of an applicant's best subsections from their attempts, so that does help me a little if I decide to not take it.
Would greatly appreciate advice on how to proceed. Thank you.

So, this may come off as rude and it isnt meant to be. Stop taking the MCAT. Apply with you scores. I know you say you "know" you can score higher if you take it again but if that was the case you would have on the 3rd attempt. Honestly the fact that you retook a 508 and went down would be a red flag to me. If you took it another time and you scored the same or even lower again this would look poorly on you. Not only from a score perspective but from a decision making capacity as well. Honestly I dont think retaking it is a good idea and frankly with your mediocre GPA I would be surprised if there arent questions raised as to why you would retake a 508 as it is.

Everyone "Knows" they can do better on the next attempt and as you have experienced its not as easy to do better as you think it is. Regardless, goodluck. Im going to tag @Goro to see if he will chime in and give you some advice as well.

 

[chilly_md]

MD is off the table unless you happen to live in a small state that interviews the majority of in-state residents at the state school.

Do not retake the MCAT.

 

[Goro]

MD is indeed off the table with your GPA, OP.

Quoting the wise Homeskool: Taking the MCAT is like getting married: ideally you only do it once, and the more times you do it the worse you start looking to suitors with good judgment.

Look. You may have batted .1000 in batting practice, but in a real ball game, you didn’t go 10 for 10. You performed at your actual level. It's easy to hit .300 in batting practice.

So give up the conceit that “I can do better” because, no, you didn’t. And a high MCAT won't remediate a weak GPA, wither.

 

[trueheater43]

@Calizboosted76 @chilly_md @Goro
Hi all,
I appreciate the bluntness. Now I do feel a lot more screwed than I did before reading this lol but I guess its necessary to face the reality. Even though some schools do superscore mcats so I guess thats a silver lining. I would also like to ask if you guys have advice on how I can proceed to make my application more competitive.
My ECs are the following:
Shadowing: ~50 hrs
Clinical experience: ~230 hrs as a hospital volunteer (across 2 different hospitals), lots of patient interactions
Research: ~150 hrs as a research assistant
Teaching/Tutoring: ~80 hrs as a Teaching assistant

I already graduated from college within the past year, so my GPA is set in stone. I mostly got B's and a few A's in my prereqs. 2 C's (Ochem I and statistics). Would a post bacc or an SMP give me any chance of getting into an MD school? Or is that outcome 100% off the table?
I was also considering getting certified as a medical assistant because I've heard some people on forums say hospital volunteering isn't involved enough with patient care to count as clinical experience, but I've also heard others say the opposite.

 

[DO2015CA]

@Calizboosted76 @chilly_md @Goro
Hi all,
I appreciate the bluntness. Now I do feel a lot more screwed than I did before reading this lol but I guess its necessary to face the reality. Even though some schools do superscore mcats so I guess thats a silver lining. I would also like to ask if you guys have advice on how I can proceed to make my application more competitive.
My ECs are the following:
Shadowing: ~50 hrs
Clinical experience: ~230 hrs as a hospital volunteer (across 2 different hospitals), lots of patient interactions
Research: ~150 hrs as a research assistant
Teaching/Tutoring: ~80 hrs as a Teaching assistant

I already graduated from college within the past year, so my GPA is set in stone. I mostly got B's and a few A's in my prereqs. 2 C's (Ochem I and statistics). Would a post bacc or an SMP give me any chance of getting into an MD school? Or is that outcome 100% off the table?
I was also considering getting certified as a medical assistant because I've heard some people on forums say hospital volunteering isn't involved enough with patient care to count as clinical experience, but I've also heard others say the opposite.

Go to one with a linkage that is strongly tied to an MD school. They’re easy to find on this forum. You seem to be stuck on going MD so swing for the fences. Don’t want you making a thread in 9 months about “should I go to this DO school or should I reapply?”

 

[AJS59]

@Calizboosted76 @chilly_md @Goro
Hi all,
I appreciate the bluntness. Now I do feel a lot more screwed than I did before reading this lol but I guess its necessary to face the reality. Even though some schools do superscore mcats so I guess thats a silver lining. I would also like to ask if you guys have advice on how I can proceed to make my application more competitive.
My ECs are the following:
Shadowing: ~50 hrs
Clinical experience: ~230 hrs as a hospital volunteer (across 2 different hospitals), lots of patient interactions
Research: ~150 hrs as a research assistant
Teaching/Tutoring: ~80 hrs as a Teaching assistant

I already graduated from college within the past year, so my GPA is set in stone. I mostly got B's and a few A's in my prereqs. 2 C's (Ochem I and statistics). Would a post bacc or an SMP give me any chance of getting into an MD school? Or is that outcome 100% off the table?
I was also considering getting certified as a medical assistant because I've heard some people on forums say hospital volunteering isn't involved enough with patient care to count as clinical experience, but I've also heard others say the opposite.

You're probably best served filling out a WAMC, particularly with more details (there's a format around here somewhere if you go the MD Forums...)

Anyways, from your brief description here's my notes:
-Shadowing and research (and the teaching) are fine
-Clinical is largely fine, but the more you can accumulate, the better
-Do you have any non-clinical volunteering or work experience? And by non-clinical I don't mean tutoring...I mean working with underprivileged populations in an area like food distribution, shelter work, job/tax prep, housing rehab, or transport services? Even if your scores and GPA were much better, your app would still be dead at nearly every MD school and a good chunk of DOs as well. You need at least 150 hours in this category before you apply.

As for the academic dilemma: Given that you completed your coursework successfully without any major failures, whatever you lean into (post-bacc or SMP) will require upper-level courses. Note that while a post-bacc can boost your GPA numbers, the SMP will not as it is counted as graduate coursework. Likewise, both (but especially the SMP) are high risk, high reward options. Should you do well, you can boost your profile up for MD schools. Perform mediocre to poorly, and you run the risk of being shut out altogether — this can happen, especially because many SMPs mirror first year courses in med school. Not to mention, SMPs are not cheap and imo it's not worth it taking on a lot of debt for a degree that doesn't carry a lot of weight outside of boosting your med school profile.

The biggest question in my mind though is this: Why not just focus on DO? Your academic profile as is, while subpar for most MD schools, would be fine at most DO schools. If you focus on your DO applications and strengthen up your hours, you may very well save yourself a fair bit of money and stress in the long run.

 

[trueheater43]

Go to one with a linkage that is strongly tied to an MD school. They’re easy to find on this forum. You seem to be stuck on going MD so swing for the fences. Don’t want you making a thread in 9 months about “should I go to this DO school or should I reapply?”

I dont have a preference between DO or MD, but I do want to make my application as competitive as possible (at least as much as I can given my fixed GPA and awkward recent MCAT).

 

[chilly_md]

@Calizboosted76 @chilly_md @Goro
My ECs are the following:
Shadowing: ~50 hrs
Clinical experience: ~230 hrs as a hospital volunteer (across 2 different hospitals), lots of patient interactions
Research: ~150 hrs as a research assistant
Teaching/Tutoring: ~80 hrs as a Teaching assistant

I already graduated from college within the past year, so my GPA is set in stone. I mostly got B's and a few A's in my prereqs. 2 C's (Ochem I and statistics). Would a post bacc or an SMP give me any chance of getting into an MD school? Or is that outcome 100% off the table?
I was also considering getting certified as a medical assistant because I've heard some people on forums say hospital volunteering isn't involved enough with patient care to count as clinical experience, but I've also heard others say the opposite.

Shadowing experience is fine, the rest is fairly barebones for your app, especially considering your GPA and repeated MCAT scores. You can pursue some non-clinical volunteering as mentioned above by AJS59, but that is not going to move the needle for MD considering where you are stats wise.

Post-bacc will take a year's worth of time and you'd still be limited by your MCAT score. An SMP with linkage would be an option, but those are expensive and there are fewer ones that still have a conditional acceptance. Those that offer a guaranteed interview may ultimately not get past your MCAT scores and you will likely be unable to increase your hours for your clinical experience and non-clinical volunteering during the school year.

 

[wysdoc]

to be frank, I think you have reached a plateau with your MCAT and should focus on making some great DO school lists and applying DO this year.

 

[trueheater43]

You're probably best served filling out a WAMC, particularly with more details (there's a format around here somewhere if you go the MD Forums...)

Anyways, from your brief description here's my notes:
-Shadowing and research (and the teaching) are fine
-Clinical is largely fine, but the more you can accumulate, the better
-Do you have any non-clinical volunteering or work experience? And by non-clinical I don't mean tutoring...I mean working with underprivileged populations in an area like food distribution, shelter work, job/tax prep, housing rehab, or transport services? Even if your scores and GPA were much better, your app would still be dead at nearly every MD school and a good chunk of DOs as well. You need at least 150 hours in this category before you apply.

As for the academic dilemma: Given that you completed your coursework successfully without any major failures, whatever you lean into (post-bacc or SMP) will require upper-level courses. Note that while a post-bacc can boost your GPA numbers, the SMP will not as it is counted as graduate coursework. Likewise, both (but especially the SMP) are high risk, high reward options. Should you do well, you can boost your profile up for MD schools. Perform mediocre to poorly, and you run the risk of being shut out altogether — this can happen, especially because many SMPs mirror first year courses in med school. Not to mention, SMPs are not cheap and imo it's not worth it taking on a lot of debt for a degree that doesn't carry a lot of weight outside of boosting your med school profile.

The biggest question in my mind though is this: Why not just focus on DO? Your academic profile as is, while subpar for most MD schools, would be fine at most DO schools. If you focus on your DO applications and strengthen up your hours, you may very well save yourself a fair bit of money and stress in the long run.

Thanks for the advice as well as the WAMC recommendation, and I will definitely look into non-clinical experience with an underserved population. Although I do have a slight concern about it: the application this cycle opens on May 5th, I feel like they wouldn't consider the experience sincere since it would be too short (Since theres only 2 to 3 weeks to accumulate hours and experiences to write about, whereas my other experiences took place over several months, sometimes years).
I have already decided to apply DO, but I do just feel embarrassed by my recent MCAT...I really did not expect my bio/biochem score to go down as it did, and still know I can do better...but from the other advice I've received here it would show poor judgement. I still can't shake the feeling that DO schools will see my 508-->507 and reject me for the 1 point decrease, and I feel like I need to do something to make up for that. Although it seems like there isn't anything I can do about it. (It is what it is)

 

[wysdoc]

Thanks for the advice as well as the WAMC recommendation, and I will definitely look into non-clinical experience with an underserved population. Although I do have a slight concern about it: the application this cycle opens on May 5th, I feel like they wouldn't consider the experience sincere since it would be too short (Since theres only 2 to 3 weeks to accumulate hours and experiences to write about, whereas my other experiences took place over several months, sometimes years).
I have already decided to apply DO, but I do just feel embarrassed by my recent MCAT...I really did not expect my bio/biochem score to go down as it did, and still know I can do better...but from the other advice I've received here it would show poor judgement. I still can't shake the feeling that DO schools will see my 508-->507 and reject me for the 1 point decrease, and I feel like I need to do something to make up for that. Although it seems like there isn't anything I can do about it.

507 and 508 are the same within the range of error.
don't look back, look forward

 

[AJS59]

Thanks for the advice as well as the WAMC recommendation, and I will definitely look into non-clinical experience with an underserved population. Although I do have a slight concern about it: the application this cycle opens on May 5th, I feel like they wouldn't consider the experience sincere since it would be too short (Since theres only 2 to 3 weeks to accumulate hours and experiences to write about, whereas my other experiences took place over several months, sometimes years).
I have already decided to apply DO, but I do just feel embarrassed by my recent MCAT...I really did not expect my bio/biochem score to go down as it did, and still know I can do better...but from the other advice I've received here it would show poor judgement. I still can't shake the feeling that DO schools will see my 508-->507 and reject me for the 1 point decrease, and I feel like I need to do something to make up for that. Although it seems like there isn't anything I can do about it. (It is what it is)

With regard to the non-clinical if you could feasibly accumulate 50 hours minimum that's at least worth considering. Also, DO schools are a bit more lenient on timing; you don't need to submit right on the 1st day.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I don't know the dates of when you took your MCAT, but if they all came within the last 5 years, you have baked your performance. Many schools average your scores for screening to discourage taking the MCAT like the SAT. Besides, you have 7 lifetime attempts to take the MCAT.

I have to look at MSAR to know which schools do super-scoring (like the SAT) after the screening. Many say they take either your highest score or your latest. In this case neither option helps you much more. (I think it's mythology among those who want to apply college undergraduate admissions principles to medical school admissions, but I don't know any data supporting super scoring on the MCAT.)

If specific mitigating circumstances prevented you from doing your best all three times, then you may want to take a break of a few years (wait until all the scores expire in 4 years) before retaking it.

I appreciate that you finally posted a WAMC and will continue commenting there.

WAMC/School list

23 ORM. MCAT history: Sept 2022: 500 (125/125/125/125) May 2023: 508 (125/125/130/128) Mar 2024: 507 (129/125/125/128) cGPA is 3.38, BCPM GPA is 3.16. BCP GPA is 3.24. No upward trend, my GPA fluctuated a lot over the last 2 years. Graduated college about 6 months ago. ECs: Clinical...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Goro]

to be frank, I think you have reached a plateau with your MCAT and should focus on making some great DO school lists and applying DO this year.

I agree 100% with my wise colleague.

 

[dial1010usa]

Are you out of your mind or what? If you were not able to hit 510 in 3 try's what magic will happen on 4th time? What if you score 500 on your 4th try? Add DO schools and try to get in. Maybe try scribe or MA kinda work or non-clinical. More hours look better. Apply on 1st day at least add one school when the apps open, once your app is approved then you can add more schools. Try my school TUNCOM, I'm sure you will get in with that MCAT score. I wouldn't suggest going ZSMP/linkage program because you will get in somewhere.

 

[DO2015CA]

Are you out of your mind or what? If you were not able to hit 510 in 3 try's what magic will happen on 4th time? What if you score 500 on your 4th try? Add DO schools and try to get in. Maybe try scribe or MA kinda work or non-clinical. More hours look better. Apply on 1st day at least add one school when the apps open, once your app is approved then you can add more schools. Try my school TUNCOM, I'm sure you will get in with that MCAT score. I wouldn't suggest going ZSMP/linkage program because you will get in somewhere.

you will realize over time there are plenty of people that “have no problem going DO” but then are the ones making the “should I accept DO or reapply” threads. You’ll get a thermometer for it over time. It’s just us older jaded folks that have seen it time and again that are recommending a linkage. I agree with you that they should apply DO and move on with it. Heck for me, they should’ve applied after the 508 and saved themselves potentially 2 years. And knowing that tells me there may be an issue with going DO. They’ve already spent 2 extra years to try for MD (granted if they were still in UG then perhaps not although most people take their first mcat attempt jr/sr year so I was making an assumption). I mean many people still get into some school with a 500. They could’ve applied solely DO with that while studying for a retest and maybe had luck (keeping the argument of new schools vs established out of it).

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You need to decide if you want to be a doctor or if your priority is to have an MD after your name. So far you've wasted 2 years on the MCAT and will be losing another year applying. You could easily be an M-3 at this point in your life looking into what specialty and residency is right for you. However, if you're here to persist on the MD, I would recommend not only retaking but doing some kind of masters with linkage due to the low science GPA. Anything less than achieving >510 and a 3.7 in that program and you'll likely be back to square 1 and you'll have lost additional years and money with the masters