SGU vs Australia for Med School

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Hey All,

I have been browsing all the forums/threads and most of you have been very informative/helpful.

Here is my situation, I hope people can shed some light or advice me on my future plan.

I have started my undergrad @ 17, at one university in Ontario, Canada. I ended up with a dismal 2.0 GPA (just about).

I changed to a different university, different program (4 years) and the first three years, I had a GPA of 3.9, 4.0 and 3.8.. (My fourth year is clinical rotations at a hospital and hence I don't know if GPA has an effect on my overall calculations).

My MCAT score is 33R.

I applied to few schools in US and did not receive an interview. Same with Canada. Hence I applied to SGU in carribean and couple of Australian schools. I got into SGU and one in Australia (and waiting to hear from U of Queensland).

My intention is to do residency in US (Internal medicine or family med with/wo fellowship) and practice in the US for a little while.

As a Canadian, I understand the difficulties of matching into a residency program as a FMG.

I'm leaning towards attending SGU.

What do you think?

Thank You
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Would it not be safer to go to Australia, b/c doesn't being a citizen of a commonwealth country give you some better chance at an Australian residency, in case you somehow can't get one in the US? I am just thinking...

Also, which school is cheaper?

If you have no desire to do Canadian residency or Australian residency at all, then I would think that St. George would give you as good a shot at US residency as an Australian med school...I don't think there are any hard data comparing the match rates for Australian grads vs. St. George grads, though, so we are probably all just going to be speculating on here.

If you really desire US residency, it might be easier to get one if you get to do some clinical rotations in US. I think some of the Australian med schools offer that, while others don't.

Also, just to point something out...family practice in the U.S. really doesn't have discrete subspecialty fellowships the way that internal medicine does. Sometimes fp residents do an extra 1 year "certficate of added qualifications" or something I think, in things like obstetrics or sports med, but I hear they can be somewhat hard to get, and also they aren't real recognized subspecialty fellowships like internal medicine has. Whether you go family practice or general internal medicine, unless things change a lot in future years in the U.S., you'd have a lot of job offers when you get done training. It's not hard to get a job in outpatient primary care, or as a hospital doctor, at least right now. Getting into some of the internal medicine specialties in the US, such as cardiology, GI and allergy/immunology, is pretty competitive, especially for foreign grads...but not necessarily impossible.
 
If you don't mind doing family medicine in the US, either will be fine. You will definitely get a residency since family medicine always has a plethora of spots left open
 
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You have a 3.9gpa over the last 3 years and a 33R MCAT and you didnt get a single interview in NA!?!?!!?! Am I missing something!?!?!
 
Just a few points I'd like to Add:

The first thing you really have to decide is where you would like to do your residency as I think it will be key point in your decision making process, and you also have to consider which residency you're interested in.

If you mainly want to do a residency in the US then my recommendation would be SGU because they are one of the more reputable schools (in the caribbean), and thus you know they have a good match rate as well as good US clinical rotations.

If you want the option of a residency in Australia then of course an Australian school will give you a better chance, however in the next few years this will be more difficult to obtain because of increasing numbers of local Australian students. Though this is also the case with the US. Now matching into a Canadian residency will be difficult for either, but I think you may have a slight advantage being from Australia. I can tell you from experience that getting into Family medicine/GP in Australia as an Australian graduate is almost 100% at this stage.

Personally if you are interested in a Family medicine residency and you can get into it in Australia then this would be your best bet, for a number of reasons. First it's recognised in Canada and though you would still have to write the LMCC (but not the USMLE) many provinces will give you a job the moment you have finished your FRACGP. After you have completed your CFPC exams you can then move to the more demanding provinces (Ontario). The other advantage is that the pay is much better as a Family medicine resident in Australia vs. the US or Canada - especially when you take into account the RRIPS (I've posted links to all of this in the Australian forums if you're interested).

Getting into a specialty program is also a lot easier if you are an Australian grad (in Australia of course) though SGU graduates from what I've read aren't excluded from speciality programs (when trying to match in the US). However in your case being a Canadian and not a US Greencard holder/Citizen will make it difficult for you to apply to the more competitive programs (and even some of the less competitive ones). Getting licensed as a specialist in Canada with training from the US is occasionally tricky - because the lengths of the two training programs may not match up. All Austrailan post-graduate training is recognised currently, though they still require you to write the Canadian fellowship exams (+ the LMCC), and the accreditation process can be lengthy. There are many Australian trained specialists working in Canada -and the current head of the U of T pathology department is an Australian trained pathologist.

One thing I can say is that you will be much better prepared for the USMLE from SGU then from Australia as the focus in Australia is mainly for the Australian system...whereas in SGU it's for American residency/training. You'll have to put in more self directed learning in Oz, though again from what I've read the pass rates are pretty good.

Finally take into account the cost of tuition - since the Australian dollar is weaker then the Canadian and US dollars at the moment it might be cheaper overall for you to study there.

Both are good choices and you'll have to wade through all the information to see what's best for you. Whatever you choose make sure you think about your plans for after graduation, because which school you choose will have different implications, with some overlap.
 
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Dear all,
thanks for the replies. That certainly helps.

redshifteffect, thanks a lot for shedding the light.

I'm interested in practicing in the US in the long term (and eventually heading back to India, my native country).

I'm quite serious with my residency choices (Internal medicine or Family medicine). If at all, I would like to do a fellowship in hematology or Infectious D or cardio.

With regards to funding, SGU has offered me $65K US in financial aid (mostly scholarship, some loan). So I'll be spending about 240 K CAD for the whole education for SGU, which is somewhat similar to how much I'll need in Australia (UofQueensland).

I understand as a Canadian its going to be harder to get into competitive programs from SGU but I just want to make sure I won't have a hard hard time getting into primary care residencies.
 
While both schools do offer a good quality of education, both are kinda risky in terms of what will happen after medical school. As mentioned SGU matches alot of people in the US, howeverthere is the visa issue, along with length of training issues compared to canada. Oz offers a really good quality of education too, as well as possible post-grad opportunities...but no one will give you a straight answer as to how available these will be when you graduate.
240K is alot of money. If youre borrowing all that, its a huge risk to spend and not be able to pay it off.
How are you borrowing that much? Are you putting cosigner on the line too?
(If you have that kinda cash, might as well, call up mac or queens offering a donation in exchange for admission).

Furthermore, since youve done pretty well recently, and have good MCATs it may be worth while applying in the US next cycle. Going to a US school would put you in the first iteration for carms, and give you a great shot at matching your specialty of choice.

best of luck
 
Australia is the way to go 100%. Australia is highly competitive to get into for medicine, and the quality of teaching at Australia medical schools is universally regarded as first class on par with NA. A Tufts PD specifically had told that Australian grads and Royal College Grads (SA, Great Britain) and Israeli medical graduates are regarded on the same level as DO applicants, and that even the best carribean student from SGU would take a back seat. Why? Simply because when they publish their residents and the medical schools attended, no program has any hesitation saying some of their residents are from Australia (and thus not losing AMG attention and prestige) but there is a stigma against Carribean. However, carribean is the better option as compared to where majority of the FMG's come from (India, Pakistan)

ALL AUSTRALIA MEDICAL SCHOOLS have extremely stringent admission requirements and simply the fact is majority dont get in. Carribean is simply pay the application fee and get accepted.

Now DO vs. Australia is a different debate, and it is your preference. Are you open to possibly practicing in Australia, or practically anywhere in the world? Then Australia is your key. If the US is all where you want to practice and be closer to home (relatively), then DO.
 
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Agreed with the above post. Most Australian medical schools require MCAT and GPA. Those that dont require MCAT, require a very high GPA (3.8+) if not applying with MCAT. The current UCSF dean is from Australia.

As for outcomes in Australia, everyone again got a position this year. Once an internship position is acquired (which pays well mind you), all interns gets a residency. Now a residency in surgery, or the super specialization fields are extremely competitive to get after internship. However, fm, pediatrics, obgyn, and em are very easy to obtain and 80% of interns get these spots with the remaining 20% going into super specializations.

As for coming to the US. An Australian graduate will certainly be looked above any carribean graduate, with the same USMLE score. There are still programs (like in Chicago, NYC) in fields like anesthesiology which are predominantly IMG's since AMG's simply do not want to go there. Being an Australian graduate, they will take you in a heartbeat. Now why do Australia grads not go to these programs. Simpply because they are at the same programs where most AMG's are or decided to stay in Australia. The country and its people really grows on you fast.

There is no question you should go to Australia. Certainly over any carribean. As for the australia vs Do argument. I'm not going there as its very debatable and each has its pro's and con's. But with your scores, I would try an American medical school for one more round

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-that-can-fix-internships-20121217-2bj7v.html
 
USMLE and Australia? Yes, Australia has very high pass rates (above 80% from what I recall). But thats not because of the teaching, but the self-directed learning from these students. Again, they take competitive students in the first place, so the motivation is unquestioned. And the USMLE preparation books go into slightly more depth than the way the Australia medical school basic science curriculum is constructed, so actually studying the USMLE books is more than enough to pass the exams. Not kidding. So in a way, if you have the motivation and desire to succeed, if you dont go to an American medical school, this is simply the best next step down.

USMLE step 2 is no question. I think its near a 98% pass rate for that. The clinical teaching in the hospital wards is first class. And most Australia medical schools now are giving students the option to take an exam called the iFOM (international Foundations of Medicine), which is very similiar to Step 2.

And quoting the ^, the country really becomes a part of you. I know 2 students personally who matched into US programs and were given internships in Australia, and decided to choose Australia. The stress both during medical school, residency, and actual practice is much more substantially in the US. Now they also said they both married Australian medical students and that was another reason, but I have an inkling that they themselves fell in love with the country.
 
Also if your goal is to eventually practice in India, the best thing to do is training in a commonwealth country. India is very familiar with commonwealth countries training but is still simply trying to understand the US system.

And programs are opening up which are ACGME-i accredited yet still familiar with countries like India. One program that comes to mind is the medical residency program at Hamad Medical Corporation in Qatar. You need to do an internship before applying for a residency, just like the commonwealth countries do, yet is ACGME accredited. HMC offers both internship positions and residencies

http://site.hmc.org.qa/cme/InternshipSelectionProcessAnnouncement.pdf

http://www.hmc.org.qa/en/images/FAQ.pdf

Coming from Australia will certainly give you an upperhand than the other applicants applying for this program. But the best bet for you if your ultimate goal is to practice in India is to do residency training in a commonwealth country such as Australia, Ireland, Canada, UK. Countries like US, Germany, France, Japan where you did training is also highly regarded but second rated to commonwealth training, simply because India knows about commonwealth training because of their long history and medical talent trade within these countries that has happened for at least a hundred years
 
as for affording Australia, if you are US Citizen you can obtain student loans through FAFSA. The commonwealth countries are eligible for FAFSA aid. Also private student loans, through major lenders such as Sallie Mae (which give now the nice smart student plan which allows you to not accumulate interest on the loan if you pay a monthly 150 dollars) and others are still available also for students.

Do carribean schools qualify for student loans? NO other than SGU. Student loans dont get dispensed to the students but rather to the school itself, and loans can only get dispensed to schools with a school code. The school has to have a school code approved by the USDE to get a student loan. Clearly the Dept of Education has deemed commonwealth countries institutions fit to obtain student loans, while it has not approved Carrib schools.My point is that there is a credibility for commonwealths schools that does not exist for carrib schools, and if you are a US Citizen, you are lucky per say to be able to attend these schools if admitted.
 
Im not to aware of the Canadian system at which you are looking at, but from personal experience I can say at least for this match cycle, coming from the UK is no problem. I went to the University of Manchester for medical school, and my older brother went to the University of Tasmania Medical School in Australia. We are both US Citizens who are from South Carolina. My brother is now a radiology resident in the United States, and I'm currently in the midst of interviewing for integrated vascular surgery residency programs. The USMLE score is crucial to the application, but getting a good score on that and coming from a respectable medical school, and having some connections (my father trained in a surgery at one of the programs I interviewed at where he was Chief Resident of which they talked about, and I have an inkling they will rank me highly) opens all doors at least for the United States thus far.

From my personal experience, its a little strange that I'm getting plenty of interviews from very well known places but not many interviews from somewhat slightly unknown programs such as major state university programs excluding my own which are regarded less competitive. Thats the only thing I have noticed, and that maybe because I'm a FMG? I dont know, but nonetheless, with the # of interviews I have gotten, I'm nearly sure at this point that I will either match into a VS or a categorical surgical program.

Same thing with my brother. He received rad interviews at some really prestigious institutions, but did not receive rads interviews at not terrible but somewhat lower programs (mostly major state university programs). I think the super lowly programs which are all FMG dominated, and the ultra-prestigous places look favorably upon commonwealth country applicants. However, those upper middle tier state university programs which are predominantly AMG, I think tend to prefer AMG's and DO's.
 
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I think the admission standards speak for themselves. It is very competitive to get into Australia schools. I would say its slightly more difficult than DO, as DO schools tend to have grade forgiveness and take into account extenuating circumstances. Australian schools simply go to the bread and butter. They are looking for a very high undergraduate GPA, and if you do not have that high (3.8+), you'll need to take the MCAT and get about a 30. Its that simple. They do not care about extenuating circumstances, your CV (other than if you have research experience which is regarded very highly since all these medical schools tend to be research powerhouses). I would go and say that Australian schools are as competitive as the lowest tier US md schools. But hey, thats not a bad deal considering the cards you've been dealt if you get accepted to an Australian school.

The word on the street about 2 years ago is the average applicant without an MCAT had a 3.83 GPA, and those applicants who had an MCAT had an average GPA of 3.4 and an average MCAT of 29.
 
In all complete sincerity, I think you're slightly foolish for even considering SGU when you have an Australian medical school acceptance. Think about it- they gave you a scholarship to attend SGU.. ie meaning you are one of the most competitive applicants to SGU for that cycle. I would expect that of every single admitted student to any Australian medical school.

To put it into perspective, I had a GPA of 3.2 undergrad, a 3.9 GPA masters gpa from the medical program at University of Cincinatti, and an MCAT of 32. I applied to Australian and US MD schools. I got into one US MD school and did not get into any australian schools. One admissions representative was kind enough to tell me why I was not accepted to this particular Australian school. He said that the only basis they can evaluate you, is from your undergraduate GPA and MCAT, and my u GPA did not meet their cutoff of a 3.3. He had said that in the future, there is some inclination to possibly give some weight to a masters GPA, but said that is not the policy currently and even if it will be implemented in the near future it will not erase a certain minimum undergraduate GPA cuttoff

So if my personal anecdote gives any insight into what you should do, the answer is beyond a shadow of a doubt. Go to Australia.
 
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Graduating from an Australian medical school simply gives you a degree from a commonwealth country medical school. There is not one country in the world, including the US, which does not appreciate the value of that degree. Australian medical graduates (regardless of whether you are or not an Australian citizen) can apply for internships in Australia, and again this past year 100% of students, regardless of their citizenship, got an internship. Australia is a global first world country. The carribean is in a condition which is 4th world essentially. Australia has diversity and simply the carribean doesnt (having a whole class of Pakistani's with a few caucasians and asians sprinkled in between does not make it diverse). Australian professors are very accomplished- in fact Australia is the most difficult place in the world to get a academic teaching faculty position because the government pays very well to academics more so than anywhere else in the world excluding the elite private institutions in the US, which are also very difficult to get a job in. Carribean teachers themselves can not speak English and most have not passed Step 1 or 2 themselves.

Sorry for ranting, but I simply cannot fathom to believe why you are even considering the carribean when you have an Australian medical school acceptance. The only other viable option for you is to reapply to US schools because your stats are good, but taking the chance you may not get into this Australian school next cycle if the US school application cycle does not pan out. Than SGU is prob where you will end up. They will take you again and again :laugh:
 
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If I manage to finish med school in Australia and obtain full registration as a specialist. Do I have to redo my residency in the USA if I want to come back and work in the USA?

Thanks
 
cgkc said:
If I manage to finish med school in Australia and obtain full registration as a specialist. Do I have to redo my residency in the USA if I want to come back and work in the USA?

Thanks
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Well, yes or possibly no. Much more likely yes, but there are exceptions and the exceptions are generally granted to commonwealth attendings. The key is to find an academic institution who is ready to hire you, AND finding malpractice insurance. The 2nd is actually harder than the first. But if you are able to do these two things,

then you can apply for the pilot program in different fields which eliminates the need to do residency in the US. Completing a fellowship is all that is necessary. For example, if you are able to find an institution ready to sponsor you, find malpractice insurance, and you have completed a radiology residency in a commonwealth training program, you can apply for noncompetitive fellowships like breast radiology fellowships which I'm guessing only a handful of applicants that I can count on my fingers apply for. Thus after completing that fellowship, you can get full institutional license to practice per say as a radiologist in academic teaching institutions. But there are drawbacks to this. You cannot go into private practice without spending at least 10 years practicing as a full attending in an academic institution. And if you are able to find medical malpractice insurance, your premiums will be much higher than someone who has a clean record and completed a training program in the US.

If you are considering this option solely because you are worried you may not make it through a US residency program, as commonwealth countries residency programs are notoriously known to be far more lax, than you wont survive as an attending in the US and you'll get hit with medical lawsuits left and right. In that case, you're better off staying in Australia.

And if you really want to practice in the US, do a residency in the US. The best most secure pathway to practicing in the US, especially with the new healthcare laws being passed every day. If you have completed Step 1 and 2, being an Australian graduate, you will be considered for most programs which AMG's consider. So if your worry is going from gorgeous Melbourne to inner city Bronx, or rural South Dakota for residency, the chance of that is slim as you'll probably get far better interviews than those carrib and FMG programs. Thats not to say not to apply to those programs (every FMG should honestly), but chances are good you'll receive interviews which carrib and FMG's could only wish for, especially if you are a US Citizen.

Fair or not for the carribs and FMGs? Well, not everything is fair in this world and this is just one of many examples.
 
If you are looking for programs to apply to, Sackler posts its match list and its a good way to gauge where commonwealth country applicants are looked upon highly. Israel is the only exception in the world when it comes to FMG's, that despite being a noncommonwealth country, it is looked as equal to a commonwealth country applicant for obvious political and economic reasons which I wont divulge in.

But this match list should give an idea to which fields and places a commonwealth US citizen applicant should apply for

For Flinders last year, they had 28 students apply through the US match and all 28 students matched. One that was impressive was one matching into ENT at Wash U. in St. Louis. That stood out to me because of my interest in ENT, but there were other very impressive matches

http://medicine.tau.ac.il/english/index.php/ny/whysackler/residency-match-by-specialty-class-of-2011
 
I think the above comment meant no but possibly yes.

Well I work with the residency selection committee, and our program has had its share of experiences with Australian graduates. Please note that this is just a viewpoint of myself, and should not be used as a reflection upon all australian graduates.

I am in a specialty residency program which primarily draws American Medical Graduates. We used to take IMG's, but it was always applicants from Commonwealth countries. We had internally established an idea that we would not have a problem at all that 33% of our residents could be from commonwealth countries. But now we have stopped taking commonwealth graduates, unless they are all ready practicing attendings in their home country.

There was one big reason for this. It's easy to get swayed when a PD gets a application from a US Citizen who attended a commonwealth country medical school, had great step scores, an impressive resume. But as we came to know, thats not difficult to attain for a US citizen who attends a commonwealth country medical school. From talking to an Australian graduate, majority of the students find the Australian curriculum simply too easy, and complement their daily studying with USMLE prep books which gets them good grades in class while fulfilling their purpose of studying for USMLE. Also the Australian curriculum allows an incredible amount of independent study/extra curricular time, so a majority of these students would actually study less than their american counterparts on a daily basis based simply on the sheer number of hours studying, study more productively by using USMLE books when studying, and then involve themselves in many extracurriculars/research that Australian medical schools offer. Also, to be blunt, majority of Australian medical graduates come from privileged families in the first place so the silver spoon has been offered, and all they have to do is eat it (which means doing well on USMLE, which in hindsight is not difficult to do, given the opportunities they have). Also, clinical rotations are a mini-vacation for Australian graduates all while exposing these students to common pathologies seen in medical practice, and add in time to study for Step 2, they obviously perform very well on step 2. Finally, a lot of premier institutions have collaborations with commonwealth countries, so these students simply apply and get some aways in the US and get fabulous American LOR's accompanied with their Australian LOR's.

This is just not the case in Australia but all commonwealth countries. So that constructs a very impressive resume for all applicants applying to US residencies from commonwealth countries, and PD's get easily swayed by the impressive credentials. And yes, there is a subtle acceptance within all PD's that commonwealth country medical graduates are equal in global eyes as compared to their AMG counterparts. This leads to excellent residency placements, comparable to that of american medical schools.

HOWEVER, we consistently saw that fresh commonwealth graduates struggled mightily in our residency program. The biggest problems was simply talking to patients and writing notes/history/taking H&P, arriving late, leaving early, not understanding that everyone deserves equal respect and that teamwork is essential starting from the medical techs, to the nurses, to the psychologist.

This is not done deliberately but simply because of their environment in medical school they have trained in. Patients in Australia, as one Australian resident said, basically take every word as the complete accurate fact which the doctor says. Patients in the US, have come in with prior research and essentially self-diagnosed themselves which the US doctor needs to understand and come to terms with. The curriculum in US medical schools focuses heavily on communication, which based on my experiences the commonwealth countries simply dont. Also talking to patients in Australia is a one-way communication with the doctor telling the patient what to do, while talking to patients in the US is a dynamic conversation which commonwealth country medical graduates, including US Citizens at these schools, struggle with mightily

H&P's are also surprisingly a major struggle for commonwealth country students. Arriving late is not acceptable, and this was a chronic problem with commonwealth country students. The OR in Australia from what I hear starts at 8 for goodness sake. There are pre-K's in the US which start earlier than 8, so it was not appreciated when these students would arrive late. And on top of that, the commonwealth residents would always be the first ones to leave early dumping the work on the other residents. Finally, there maybe a hierarchy that exists in medical care in the commonwealth countries, but teamwork is essential in the US and these students dont have a concept of teamwork with the medical techs, nurses, lab technicians, etc. because of some ego they developed while in the commonwealth curriculum.

All these flaws are genuinely not a flaw of the students but of the system they were taught in. So while these students when applying for residency, had very impressive resumes and they were considered "average students" in their respective schools (I cant even begin to think how impressive the resumes were of the excellent students in the school), the curriculum allows students to attain such kinds of resumes which the US schools you really have to work for. So whats seen on paper is half the story, and there are many PD's who will still take commonwealth graduates over DO's and maybe even over US med students, but extraneous information needs to be collected such as their experience taking H&P's etc.

Our program is regarded as one of the most competitive programs in the Midatlantic, but we recently decided that we will stray away from taking commonwealth medical graduates directly out of medical school because from our experience they are not ready for the rigors of residency. We've got to maintain our reputation among the other departments but more importantly among our patients, and there were many patient complaints (>90%) which were solely directed towards commonwealth fresh medical graduates. However, commonwealth applicants who were attendings in these countries are absolutely fabulous and a delight to work with. That simply comes with a culture of years of hard work, and these applicants are regarded still on the same level as excellent US medical students for selection consideration
 
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one key difference is the australian medical schools allow you to practice in Australia. This year, as a post stated, 100% of graduates regardless of their citizenship got an internship. Getting an internship, essentially guarantees you a position in FM, obgyn, EM.

If you become a dual US-Australian citizen, by marrying an Australian (and trust me, even Australian medical students who come in all ethnicities are just mouth drop gorgeous because they come from upper middle class families who can afford to look good) then you have a gazillion doors open for eternity. As of the current moment December 2012, regardless of your citizenship, if you graduate from an Australian medical school the gazillion doors are open to you as well just as it is to any Australian citizen, but in the future (i think in ~10 years), nonaustralian citizens who attend Australian medical school will have the same unmatch rate as that of US Med students applying for US residencies ie 6% of Us medical graduates last year failed to match so it would be about 6% of Australian medical graduates who are not Australian citizens fail to get an internship position. If you are particular about things being certain, the only way that can done is getting Australian citizenship. The easiest way- marry an Australian medical student. And no, thats not a bad deal at all considering how much better the Australian medical student looks as compared to the average medical student :laugh:
 
I am a Canadian attending med school in Australia. I would like to do my residency in the USA. Will it be much harder for me to get a residency spot since I would need a visa?

Thanks
 
cgkc said:
I am a Canadian attending med school in Australia. I would like to do my residency in the USA. Will it be much harder for me to get a residency spot since I would need a visa?

Thanks
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ehh I don't think it will be MUCH harder but it will be harder. You'll still be put above US citizens attending carrib schools, but will probably lose out to a US Citizen attending a commonwealth country medicals school or a DO applicant. Why don't you keep the Australia option open as well? Again, this past year, regardless of citizenship everyone got an internship spot. You can also look at Hamad medical Corporation residency programs which are ACGME-i accredited. I have seen the applicants to that program, and again they are all from India/Pakistan/or the Middle East and being an Australian graduate will instantly put you on top of the totem pole.
 
san2 said:
ehh I don't think it will be MUCH harder but it will be harder. You'll still be put above US citizens attending carrib schools, but will probably lose out to a US Citizen attending a commonwealth country medicals school or a DO applicant. Why don't you keep the Australia option open as well? Again, this past year, regardless of citizenship everyone got an internship spot. You can also look at Hamad medical Corporation residency programs which are ACGME-i accredited. I have seen the applicants to that program, and again they are all from India/Pakistan/or the Middle East and being an Australian graduate will instantly put you on top of the totem pole.
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Yes, I will definitely keep the Australia option open. But from what I have read so far, even if I get fully licensed in Aus, there is a 10-year moratorium restriction on my license because I am still considered an IMG for licensing purpose ( any student who is not a PR or Aus citizenship when they first started med school in Aus.).

So it looks like the USA has the least restrictions if I can manage to get a residency there.

Thanks again for all the helpful information.
 
cgkc said:
Yes, I will definitely keep the Australia option open. But from what I have read so far, even if I get fully licensed in Aus, there is a 10-year moratorium restriction on my license because I am still considered an IMG for licensing purpose ( any student who is not a PR or Aus citizenship when they first started med school in Aus.).

So it looks like the USA has the least restrictions if I can manage to get a residency there.

Thanks again for all the helpful information.
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It would be the same as in the US though. You would be an attending on a H1 or J1 visa. You need to take Step 1 and 2, and do well on them (at least attaining the average USMLE score of an AMG of the year you apply). PD's are well aware of the quality of Australian graduates, and a good USMLE score will compound that belief.

As for Australia, as a post above had said everyone got internships, and an internship essentially guarantees you get a FM, EM, or OBGYN position. The super specializations are still very tough to get after an internship, but thats both for australian and nonaustralian citizens. But thats where the moratorium kicks in. After internship, when you apply for residencies per say, if by that time you are not an Australian citizen (which I think you should be if you applied) then your residency positions would have to be in rural parts of Australia and the moratorium has been reduced to 5 years now. So a 3 year GP training in Australia would leave with 2 years left to be a full attending in rural Australia and then you are set free from the moratorium. And to be honest, working 2 years in rural Australia (where doctors earn close to 800k Australian Dollars), and then moving anywhere is not a bad deal at all as compared to physicians in the big cities earning near 250-300k. The moratorium is good in a way, because it ensures that all interns will at least get a residency spot in FM at the very least.

Also, you have the option to not participate in the 5 year moratorium, and you can go anywhere in Australia for training and/or being an attending, but you would have to pay back the government the same fees that they intended to pay you during your training. Now not many people would wanna do that and just provide underserved areas for 5 years and get paid while doing it. Also Western Sydney (which is the immigrant hub of Sydney) itself is considered underserved, and actually thats where majority go to complete their moratorium so there is still a massive shortage in mid and western Australia. In the extreme shortage places, the pay from recent estimates I have seen is doctors as residents earning near 80k and attendings earning near 1.2 million.

But you do realize you will probably even after being an attending in the US have to work in a rural area/medically underserved area because of your visa for a minimum amount of years. I think its actually more than the 5 year moratorium requirement, and the moratorium requirement can be fulfilled depending on the length of your residency program. The US has somewhat a similiar moratorium policy, but the policy doesnt take into affect until after residency, so the length is actually longer in the US. And the rural/medically underserved areas of the United States are far worse and infinetly more dangerous than the rural/medically underserved areas in Australia.

I would recommend you take step 1 and 2 if you havent all ready done so, and if your USMLE score is at the US average you will get interviews at institutions similiar to US Med grads. If your USMLE score is lower than the US average of the year you are applying, you will be interviewing in IMG places, and you will be at top of their totem pole but they are generally in very undesirable locations, and you yourself may then opt to do an internship in Australia and giving up the residency position offer in the US.

The beauty of attending an Australian medical school is exactly just that. The chance of major success is reasonable, and if you are not able to achieve major success, then your fallback option is still something very good (Australia) which is just a great position to be in. My advice to everyone who is going to Australia as international students is that the students they select are intelligent and mature students who are very career driven. But a lot of times these students forget the advantages of being an Australian citizen, so these students should be at least open to the idea of marrying an medical student with Australian citizenship within the class if they are not involved in extracurricular dating. Eventually everyone is bound to get married, so why not to a medical student in your medical school class who has Australian citizenship. That would automatically put you as an Australian citizen (even more optimal a dual US-Australian citizen), and then with that along with being an Australian medical graduate, I think the possibilities are endless. Its something that more international students need to consider. Anyways, best of luck to you
 
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And also you should consider, the fact that if you out of convenience for family reasons want to work in a government hospital in Australia, the life is absolutely too easy. yes you get a major paycut as compared to working in a private hospital, but the lifestyle is just too relaxed. A private hospital's workload is equivalent to that of any hospital in the US in a mid-size city. Another major difference between the US and Australia. I like that option as well, as it allows one to dictate his/her own life
 
I think as a current student in an Australian medical school, I can give some input. I wont disclose which school I am attending, as that will give away who I am, especially because I'm the only "Khanna" in my school. :laugh:

I went to college in the US, and was in one of the top bschools in the country and graduated with a major in business administration. Our school had a "premed" minor available, and thus that was my minor. I graduated with a GPA of about a 3.5, and an MCAT of 31, and came to Australia for medical school. I did not apply to Carribean, and quite frankly dont know much about it other than the negative stigma and publicity it gets but to be fair I cannot give you a comparison on whats better, as my knowledge of Carribean schools is very limited.

But I just finished my third year here (in a 5 year degree program), and have just completed Step 1 and plan to take Step 2, next year at this time or early 2014 before year 5 begins. My Step 1 score was much lower than I had hoped for (227), so I hope to do better on Step 2.

But regardless of my disappointing performance on Step 1 (as my class average is near a 235), coming to Australia was the best decision I have ever made. I made friends of a lifetime, the country is just a joy to be in, and the scenic beauty is second to none. Majority of these comments that have been made are correct. You really have to put in some independent self-study time for the USMLE. At least in my school that was easy to do, as we had all purchased Board Review Series USMLE books and used it as a primary textbook for our courses, and we went way beyond what our professors required us to know for exams. In a way that really helped us, but it needs self-discipline. The australian preclinical curriculum is not adequate enough for the USMLE.

The diversity in my class is absolutely stunning. We have students from all over the world who were very accomplished, as well as native Australians who were the most brilliant students in their graduating classes. But contrary to what you would think, our cohort is probably one of the most social medical classes in the entire world. We have 3x annually campus wide festivals, performances as well as the biweekly social events the school sets up. There is no denying that studying is quite a lot, but there is still ample time to involve in activities, and again if your goal is to take Step 1, you will be quite busy studying majority of the time. But studying for Step 1 has a direct translation to school performance, so the professors know the US students as the academic overachievers which is a motivator by itself to study more ;)

Having finished half of our clinical clerkships, our hospitals are quite amazing with ground-breaking technology and sanitation and prevention being the highest priority of our hospitals. I will finish the other half of our clinical clerkships in year 4, and year 5 is primarily reserved for electives and a quick rotation in emergency medicine. Our school gives us the opportunity to do electives anywhere in the world, including the US. The US offers electives for international medical students still currently in medical schools at select locations. Upperclassmen have done rotations at Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, Mount Sinai, Penn, Uchicago, and some others which I can't currently recall of the top of my head. These electives, you get a grade for, and is actually a clinical clerkship similiar to what US medical students complete in their 3rd/4th year depending on their specialty they are interested in. This is different than observerships. I actually plan to do a research elective rather than a clinical elective, as I'm interested in research and plan to continue on my research which I started in college regarding Malaria in pregnancy. I'm actually leaning towards doing a research elective in a university in Cape Town, but social pressures are pressuring me to do a research elective in the US instead, so lets see how influential they are :sleep:

We've always had an impressive match every year from students applying to the US, with a 100% match rate since my first year. The most impressive last year was a US Citizen getting orthopedic surgery at University of Alabama, which is known for having one of the best ortho departments in the United States. This is just one out of many decent matches, but wanted to mention this one as this match will not be forgotten in a long time.

Australia has been a great experience, and I'm torn everyday now between whether I want to return to the US or stay here in Australia for internship and residency. Its a great country (minus the expensive cost of real estate here which is a strong enough reason to consider returning to the US). Admission is very competitive. It is truly a "bread and butter" kind of admissions policy, where extenuating circumstances at least are not heavily looked at, and at my school a masters or PhD GPA is not considered. While the MCAT is not required at my school, its heavily recommended for applicants not having a 3.75 GPA. But then, having a GPA of about 3.75 and having some research experience, or having a GPA of 3.4 and an MCAT score of 29+ is nearly a guarantee you will get in, so not having medically relevant experiences is no biggie if at all when it comes to admissions.

You'll have a great time here, a great educational experience here, and most importantly you'll make friends of a lifetime. If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me :)
 
it should be very clear to you by now that the best carribean school is far inferior to any australian school.

I'm going to be bold, at the expense of being massively shunned and criticized, that its better than DO school. Its debatable, and the fact that its debatable means that they are both good options. But I would not want the stigma of being a DO, and in that regard, Australia is better but you have to pay a price for it and that price is going far away from family and US friends. The cost of tuition is actually remarkably similiar, as private DO schools actually charge slightly more than Australian schools. Its the cost of living which can vary greatly. Expect the cost of living in Australia to be very similar to living in LA.
 
san2 said:
ehh I don't think it will be MUCH harder but it will be harder. You'll still be put above US citizens attending carrib schools, but will probably lose out to a US Citizen attending a commonwealth country medicals school or a DO applicant. Why don't you keep the Australia option open as well? Again, this past year, regardless of citizenship everyone got an internship spot. You can also look at Hamad medical Corporation residency programs which are ACGME-i accredited. I have seen the applicants to that program, and again they are all from India/Pakistan/or the Middle East and being an Australian graduate will instantly put you on top of the totem pole.
Click to expand...

They state they are in the process of obtaining certification but ACGME-I notes that the only programs that have obtained certification in *any* speciality are in Singapore.
 
the_samrat said:
Dear all,
thanks for the replies. That certainly helps.

redshifteffect, thanks a lot for shedding the light.

I'm interested in practicing in the US in the long term (and eventually heading back to India, my native country).

I'm quite serious with my residency choices (Internal medicine or Family medicine). If at all, I would like to do a fellowship in hematology or Infectious D or cardio.

With regards to funding, SGU has offered me $65K US in financial aid (mostly scholarship, some loan). So I'll be spending about 240 K CAD for the whole education for SGU, which is somewhat similar to how much I'll need in Australia (UofQueensland).

I understand as a Canadian its going to be harder to get into competitive programs from SGU but I just want to make sure I won't have a hard hard time getting into primary care residencies.
Click to expand...

Maybe you don't have the right ECs? You need volunteering at the minimum to be interviewed by many schools. If you apply to the U.S as a Canadian you will likely need to take a year off between med school and residency just due to timing and the fact that you need ECFMG certification and possibly step 3 finished before you start residency. Also you will need to get a visa which many hospitals won't provide. It is a long and hard road if you go IMG and i wouldn't recommend it if you have a shot at NA schools.
 
To be honest, starting 2015 it is going to be EXTREMELY difficult to obtain a US residency position as an IMF/FMG due to the cuts in position and increasing number of USMG applicants, even in the lesser competitive specialties such as psych, IM and FM. I wish you the best of luck but I just wanted to let you know what the real situation is going to be in the next upcoming years. Maybe you should go to a school that will give you the best opportunity to obtain residency training somewhere with a better chance.
 
It's also pathetic how many of you seem to undermine the USDO degree, they might be slightly less preferred than an USMD ( even this might not be mostly true in most specialities and programs in the US these days), buy they will ALWAYS ALWAYS be given preference over an IMG whether they be from the carribeans, Australia, India or wherever. For every success story you hear from these schools, there are a 100 more at DO schools. I'm not trying to start anything, but if you guys check out the other sections of SDN and talk to american pre med advisers, they will say the same exact thing. For the OP, try retaking the classes you failed or did bad in and try for US DO ( many DO schools accept Canadian students, such as Michigan State College of Osteopathic Medicine) you will be much much much better off. These off shore options might have been viable five to ten years ago, but not anymore.
 
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