Sexism in Medicine

[Wordead]

Board scores aren't patient outcomes though.

Board scores are a widely looked at metric for the quality of your program.

Patient outcomes are so multifactorial it would be worthless to look at in this context.

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[twospadz]

Its funny how people say only test scores should be a measure. You don't need the highest IQ to practice medicine. A lot of medicine is formulaic. The best doctor is one who will address the needs of the patient that will result in the best outcome. Trusting your doctor is a big part of medicine. Soft factors like gender and race play a factor. You don't need to be a genius to be competent in medicine. Intelligence isn't correlated with integrity either which Ive seen lacking in many doctors who have put patients health at harm as a result.

 

[deleted480308]

Its funny how people say only test scores should be a measure. You don't need the highest IQ to practice medicine. A lot of medicine is formulaic. The best doctor is one who will address the needs of the patient that will result in the best outcome. Trusting your doctor is a big part of medicine. Soft factors like gender and race play a factor. You don't need to be a genius to be competent in medicine. Intelligence isn't correlated with integrity either which Ive seen lacking in many doctors who have put patients health at harm as a result.

Try and use that line if hospitals in vermont stop hiring anyone who isn’t white, it doesn’t fly

 

[twospadz]

Try and use that line if hospitals in vermont stop hiring anyone who isn’t white, it doesn’t fly

And this is one out of many reasons why Vermont is such an unattractive place to live and is in a way begging working professionals to come live there. It has no diversity. I wouldn't wanna live in Vermont (once im done with residency) alone by the demographics. Hopefully it will learn to change its ways or else the state is going to continue to shrink.

New laws, 2019: Vermont pays people $10K to move there, internet taxes, pet protection, more

 

[deleted480308]

And this is one out of many reasons why Vermont is such an unattractive place to live and is in a way begging working professionals to come live there. It has no diversity. I wouldn't wanna live in Vermont (once im done with residency) alone by the demographics. Hopefully it will learn to change its ways or else the state is going to continue to shrink.

New laws, 2019: Vermont pays people $10K to move there, internet taxes, pet protection, more

You think race is why vermont is not popular?

 

[dpmd]

I guess it depends on how you define “best.” In my mind, if you don’t meet the standard by passing boards, I don’t want you touching me or my family. I don’t particularly care about bedside manner; if I have to choose between that and competence I will always choose the latter.
And having worse procedural skills is unlikely in my opinion. In my field for example, step scores correlate with passing oites and boards... and you can’t pass the boards unless you can operate.


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You can be very good procedurally and fail the boards. You can also do very well on the in training exams and fail the boards. You can also be a marginal proceduralist and still pass the boards. It isn't like they watch you operate. Just being able to regurgitate the steps of a procedure doesn't mean you will be proficient at it.

 

[twospadz]

You think race is why vermont is not popular?

Reading comprehension is essential "And this is one out of many reasons why Vermont is such an unattractive place...". .

 

[deleted480308]

Reading comprehension is essential "And this is one out of many reasons why Vermont is such an unattractive place...". .

I don’t think race is a factor at all. Why do you think it is?

 

[twospadz]

I don’t think race is a factor at all. Why do you think it is?

If your older than 22 years old and you don't think race is factor in this country, I'm not gonna waste my time and explain it you. You've had more than enough chances in your lifteime to understand. I'm done with this thread.

 

[deleted480308]

If your older than 22 years old and you don't think race is factor in this country, I'm not gonna waste my time and explain it you. You've had more than enough chances in your lifteime to understand. I'm done with this thread.

That felt a lot like not wanting to back up a failed premise that couldn’t withstand a challenge

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

You can be very good procedurally and fail the boards. You can also do very well on the in training exams and fail the boards. You can also be a marginal proceduralist and still pass the boards. It isn't like they watch you operate. Just being able to regurgitate the steps of a procedure doesn't mean you will be proficient at it.

Our oral boards are not “regurgitating steps.” They look at everything, your fluoro shots, your documentation; your conversations with the family; and the quality of your work. So yes, bad technique can and does fail you.


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[OrthoTraumaMD]

If your older than 22 years old and you don't think race is factor in this country, I'm not gonna waste my time and explain it you. You've had more than enough chances in your lifteime to understand. I'm done with this thread.

Lmao.


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[dpmd]

Our oral boards are not “regurgitating steps.” They look at everything, your fluoro shots, your documentation; your conversations with the family; and the quality of your work. So yes, bad technique can and does fail you.


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Interesting. Our boards don't do that. Instead there is stuff like what would you do for person with (classic surgical problem with operation that isn't really done anymore because now it is managed with meds) or (cancer that you may or may not treat). I retract my statements as they apply to any specialty with board like yours instead of like mine

 

[Winged Scapula]

Interesting. Our boards don't do that. Instead there is stuff like what would you do for person with (classic surgical problem with operation that isn't really done anymore because now it is managed with meds) or (cancer that you may or may not treat). I retract my statements as they apply to any specialty with board like yours instead of like mine

Ortho boards are like Ob/Gyn and PRS where they submit a caselog etc. so there may be something to the claim in those fields that BC relates to quality (as much as it can be measured by subjective reviewers and cases).

 

[Winged Scapula]

If your older than 22 years old and you don't think race is factor in this country, I'm not gonna waste my time and explain it you. You've had more than enough chances in your lifteime to understand. I'm done with this thread.

So far this thread has been civil and professional. I've contemplated moving it to SPF but didn't because everyone was behaving themselves.

Insulting others is a TOS violation and will result in the thread being closed and/or moved.

 

[dpmd]

Ortho boards are like Ob/Gyn and PRS where they submit a caselog etc. so there may be something to the claim in those fields that BC relates to quality (as much as it can be measured by subjective reviewers and cases).

I knew about the submitting a case log part and that it would affect what you get asked but I didn't realize the detail involved. I thought it was more like ah you do mostly xyz so I will focus on those hypotheticals.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I knew about the submitting a case log part and that it would affect what you get asked but I didn't realize the detail involved. I thought it was more like ah you do mostly xyz so I will focus on those hypotheticals.

I can't speak for Ortho but I'm pretty familiar with PRS and they can and do pick apart management of cases and even if you do mostly, say breast recon, you will still get asked about craniofacial. Amirite @MediCane2006 ?

 

[twospadz]

That felt a lot like not wanting to back up a failed premise that couldn’t withstand a challenge

You actually blew me mind. You know what your right. Your views do make sense. You have a real convincing viewpoints. You need to spread the world in real life and enlighten others just like you did me. Whatever hospital you work at as a attending or resident, spread that gospel to your patients, colleagues and everyone! Be genuine. I know you can do it. Change the world one step at a time. And I know success as a result will be in your future. Your a crusader for the people. The next Dr. Eugene Gu! Hooray!

 

[deleted480308]

You actually blew me mind. You know what your right. Your views do make sense. You have a real convincing viewpoints. You need to spread the world in real life and enlighten others just like you did me. Whatever hospital you work at as a attending or resident, spread that gospel to your patients, colleagues and everyone! Be genuine. I know you can do it. Change the world one step at a time. And I know success as a result will be in your future. Your a crusader for the people. The next Dr. Eugene Gu! Hooray!

Still feels like I haven’t seen a defense for that premise

 

[MediCane2006]

I can't speak for Ortho but I'm pretty familiar with PRS and they can and do pick apart management of cases and even if you do mostly, say breast recon, you will still get asked about craniofacial. Amirite @MediCane2006 ?

Yes, for PRS 1/3 of the exam is focused on your cases but the other 2/3 is a grab bag including stuff like complex craniofacial and hand. On my exam there was at least one case I had literally never seen or read about before.

I will say that in my limited experience the PRS orals really seem to test both your surgical skill set as well as your mental approach to cases. Partly this is because in plastics there is usually more than one right way to do things, so it’s not so much whether you know the right obscure operation, but rather how you think through a case and whether you can approach a difficult case with a thoughtful and safe algorithm.

Anecdotally, I know a ton of very good, thoughtful surgeons who have failed the general surgery oral boards and who I would let operate on me without question. On the other hand the people I know who failed the plastics boards I would not let operate on a dog.

 

[twospadz]

Still feels like I haven’t seen a defense for that premise

The problem is your looking for validation because the real world/mainstream is refusing to give you any. I have psych patients who think the sky is green. You think Im going to waste my time and argue with them? Just cause someone has a opinion doesn't mean they need to be entertained. Having an argument with you is on level of extremely insignificant for things I have to accomplish today.

 

[deleted480308]

The problem is your looking for validation because the real world/mainstream is refusing to give you any. I have psych patients who think the sky is green. You think Im going to waste my time and argue with them? Just cause someone has a opinion doesn't mean they need to be entertained. Having an argument with you is on level of extremely insignificant for things I have to accomplish today.

Three posts so far about how you don’t have time to justify your claim, ironically taking more time than it would have taken to justify the claim

This is getting sad

 

[rokshana]

You actually blew me mind. You know what your right. Your views do make sense. You have a real convincing viewpoints. You need to spread the world in real life and enlighten others just like you did me. Whatever hospital you work at as a attending or resident, spread that gospel to your patients, colleagues and everyone! Be genuine. I know you can do it. Change the world one step at a time. And I know success as a result will be in your future. Your a crusader for the people. The next Dr. Eugene Gu! Hooray!

You were warned by a mod about your behavior on here and continued behavior would risk closing of this thread... and yet you continue to behave the same way...which I expect out of my four year old niece.

WS other than this poster, everyone else has been appropriate... seems like the poster should be reprimanded and not a thread closure.

 

[gutonc]

The problem is your looking for validation because the real world/mainstream is refusing to give you any. I have psych patients who think the sky is green. You think Im going to waste my time and argue with them? Just cause someone has a opinion doesn't mean they need to be entertained. Having an argument with you is on level of extremely insignificant for things I have to accomplish today.

Again. Personal attacks are not welcome on SDN.

 

[Raryn]

And the oral board question is beside the point - the majority of physicians are in fields where it's just a written test only. Just IM+FM+Peds is about half of physicians, and if you add in others without oral boards (I know path doesn't, neuro and psych got rid of theirs in the last few years, there's probably others). In our fields, there is probably some correlation between being board certified and being competent - but I guarantee you it's a weak one.

 

[Goro]

You think race is why vermont is not popular?

As someone who is from NYC, and who once moved to a very un-diverse city, I can tell you that once I was walking downtown and noticed something was missing. I couldn't put my finger on it at first.

Then I realized, "there's not black people here!!!"

This was a city of some 400K people, but basically, it was like living in a large small town.

So yeah, I immediately understood what twospadz was talking about.

But we've drifted far away enough from the OP to be in another time zone.

 

[rokshana]

As someone who is from NYC, and who once moved to a very un-diverse city, I can tell you that once I was walking downtown and noticed something was missing. I couldn't put my finger on it at first.

Then I realized, "there's not black people here!!!"

This was a city of some 400K people, but basically, it was like living in a large small town.

So yeah, I immediately understood what twospadz was talking about.

But we've drifted far away enough from the OP to be in another time zone.

Interestingly enough I have a friend who is black and gay say that he feels less racism in a state like New Hampshire where there is less diversity than in a more diverse city such as Richmond...he feels that there are less preconceived notions in areas where the general population have had less interaction with people of different backgrounds...different take

 

[deleted480308]

As someone who is from NYC, and who once moved to a very un-diverse city, I can tell you that once I was walking downtown and noticed something was missing. I couldn't put my finger on it at first.

Then I realized, "there's not black people here!!!"

This was a city of some 400K people, but basically, it was like living in a large small town.

So yeah, I immediately understood what twospadz was talking about.

But we've drifted far away enough from the OP to be in another time zone.

You ever check racial demographics before moving somewhere?

 

[kepler16b]

It happens in engineering too. Women study it then end up doing politics/business/fashion/etc. What a waste of a spot (at my alma mater which is an incredible engineering school). There's a huge shortage of chemE Software engineers, etc. Not many women wanna do it. It's a shame and bad for the economy

I noticed that the thread seemed to let this comment slide.

This is an insane viewpoint, not backed up by any evidence nor grounded in reality. This is sexism.

 

[deleted480308]

I noticed that the thread seemed to let this comment slide.

This is an insane viewpoint, not backed up by any evidence nor grounded in reality. This is sexism.

https://www.asee.org/papers-and-pub...e-profiles/15EngineeringbytheNumbersPart1.pdf

Female Engineering Students Continuing a trend of the past several years, women represented a larger percentage of Master’s and Doctoral students in 2015 than the year before. They also earned a larger share of graduate than of Bachelor’s degrees. Females were awarded 19.9 percent of all Bachelor’s degrees awarded by an engineering program in 2015 and made up 21.4 percent of undergraduates enrolled in engineering. They received 25.2 percent of Master’s degrees and 23.1 percent of doctoral degrees in 2015. Women represented 24.1 percent of students studying for a Master’s degree in

 

[kepler16b]

https://www.asee.org/papers-and-pub...e-profiles/15EngineeringbytheNumbersPart1.pdf

Great! I'm glad that women are gaining more representation in engineering school.

However, the poster I am quoting claimed, without evidence, that most women who go to engineering school don't go into engineering, and then went on to suggest that women should be barred from entering engineering programs because of this. Despite the fact that he himself went to an engineering school and did not go into engineering!!!

That is a dangerous and seriously flawed viewpoint.

 

[deleted480308]

Great! I'm glad that women are gaining more representation in engineering school.

However, the poster I am quoting claimed, without evidence, that most women who go to engineering school don't go into engineering, and then went on to suggest that women should be barred from entering engineering programs because of this. Despite the fact that he himself earned an engineering degree and did not go into engineering!!!

That is a dangerous and seriously flawed viewpoint.

1. Why Do So Many Women Who Study Engineering Leave the Field? <----they do leave the field in significant numbers

2. I don't think they suggested women be banned from engineering. I might have missed it. Mentioning it is an inefficient use of engineering degree seats isn't the same as banning women.

 

[kepler16b]

1. Why Do So Many Women Who Study Engineering Leave the Field? <----they do leave the field in significant numbers

2. I don't think they suggested women be banned from engineering. I might have missed it. Mentioning it is an inefficient use of engineering degree seats isn't the same as banning women.

The fact that you don't see this as sexist is troubling.

Here is the article that HBR (lazily) references:

Singh, Romila, et al. "Why do women engineers leave the engineering profession? The roles of work–family conflict, occupational commitment, and perceived organizational support." Human Resource Management 57.4 (2018): 901-914.

Okay, I'm out. I don't think anything productive is going to happen in this thread.

 

[gutonc]

The fact that you don't see this as sexist is troubling.

Here is the article that HBR (lazily) references:

Singh, Romila, et al. "Why do women engineers leave the engineering profession? The roles of work–family conflict, occupational commitment, and perceived organizational support." Human Resource Management 57.4 (2018): 901-914.

Okay, I'm out. I don't think anything productive is going to happen in this thread.

It took you 284 posts to realize that? It seemed pretty obvious to me from the thread title alone.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The fact that you don't see this as sexist is troubling.

Here is the article that HBR (lazily) references:

Singh, Romila, et al. "Why do women engineers leave the engineering profession? The roles of work–family conflict, occupational commitment, and perceived organizational support." Human Resource Management 57.4 (2018): 901-914.

Okay, I'm out. I don't think anything productive is going to happen in this thread.

The sexist article written by a woman?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

The fact that you don't see this as sexist is troubling.

Here is the article that HBR (lazily) references:

Singh, Romila, et al. "Why do women engineers leave the engineering profession? The roles of work–family conflict, occupational commitment, and perceived organizational support." Human Resource Management 57.4 (2018): 901-914.

Okay, I'm out. I don't think anything productive is going to happen in this thread.

So....facts are sexist. Mmmkay.


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[deleted480308]

The fact that you don't see this as sexist is troubling.

Here is the article that HBR (lazily) references:

Singh, Romila, et al. "Why do women engineers leave the engineering profession? The roles of work–family conflict, occupational commitment, and perceived organizational support." Human Resource Management 57.4 (2018): 901-914.

Okay, I'm out. I don't think anything productive is going to happen in this thread.

The sexist article written by a woman?

And the article where the first two supposed reasons are choices by the women and the third is just an perceived opinion (which happens to be wrong because engineering overwhelmingly preferentially hires women)

 

[Goro]

You ever check racial demographics before moving somewhere?

Nope. Didn't dawn on me.

 

[deleted480308]

Nope. Didn't dawn on me.

I don't think it would (or even should) dawn on anyone to do that

 

[atomi]

I don't think it would (or even should) dawn on anyone to do that

Making a decision to move or not to move to a certain area based on racial makeup is by definition racist. It’s funny how you are only allowed to scream racism if the person you’re screening at is white.

I see it all the time with my peers only wanting to move to big cities where there are large numbers of “brown people” (in quotes because it’s the exact phrase I hear over and over again). Nobody bats an eye. What if I publically said I only wanted to move to a city based on the number of white people there? (Edit: to be clear, I do not and don’t care how many white people there are).

 

[atomi]

Although to be fair it looks like there are limits on flagrant overt racism for everyone:

Cleveland Clinic fires doctor, 27, after rash of anti-Semitic tweets, including threat to give Jews 'wrong meds'

Of course I have a feeling this would have been front page news on the NYT and at the top of everyone’s news feed around the world if this were a white American male doctor.

 

[rokshana]

Although to be fair it looks like there are limits on flagrant overt racism for everyone:

Cleveland Clinic fires doctor, 27, after rash of anti-Semitic tweets, including threat to give Jews 'wrong meds'

Of course I have a feeling this would have been front page news on the NYT and at the top of everyone’s news feed around the world if this were a white American male doctor.

i just saw that too...CCF put out a statement even! nvm...saw that she was an intern...wouldn't her training license be worthless since she isn't at a program?

 

[atomi]

i just saw that too...CCF put out a statement even! i wonder if she completed residency they said she WAS a resident there from 2017-2018.

I think she was an intern. Her career is over.
There are LOTS of actual racists and antisemites who are physicians. Becoming a physician requires typically a very high degree of intelligence. Which is what’s unusual about this, unfortunately not that there are racist physicians, but that because she was dumb enough to post all this online. That’s a special kind of stupid.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

i just saw that too...CCF put out a statement even! i wonder if she completed residency they said she WAS a resident there from 2017-2018.

They said this:

"This individual was employed as a supervised, first-year resident at our hospital from July to September 2018...

So she was an intern for 3 months then got placed on leave and subsequently fired.

 

[rokshana]

I think she was an intern. Her career is over.
There are LOTS of actual racists and antisemites who are physicians. Becoming a physician requires typically a very high degree of intelligence. Which is what’s unusual about this, unfortunately not that there are racist physicians, but that because she was dumb enough to post all this online. That’s a special kind of stupid.

she probably could have said all of that and still kept her spot if it wasn't for the giving Jews the wrong meds statement...that;s the one that was the nail in the coffin for her medical career...how crazy to throw all that work away...

 

[atomi]

They said this:



So she was an intern for 3 months then got placed on leave and subsequently fired.

I’m gonna take a wild guess and say that her tweets weren’t the only problem her employer had to deal with. You don’t get to that level of dumb without a lot of other collateral interpersonal problems.

We see posts on here every once in a while from applicants if PDs search their social media and I always say yes, they do. BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY DON’T.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I’m gonna take a wild guess and say that her tweets weren’t the only problem her employer had to deal with. You don’t get to that level of dumb without a lot of other collateral interpersonal problems.

We see posts on here every once in a while from applicants if PDs search their social media and I always say yes, they do. BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY DON’T.

I could believe either.

 

[Emmet2301]

I don't think it would (or even should) dawn on anyone to do that

Why not so? I, for one, would like to know the level of diversity before I move to a place.

For the record, I am a minority.

 

[Raryn]

Why not so? I, for one, would like to know the level of diversity before I move to a place.

For the record, I am a minority.

I don't care about diversity of people where I live and have never looked it up.

What I have looked up is diversity of restaurants, ethnic food stores, etc. That actually affects my life. But that doesn't correlate that well to ethnic diversity - I've had excellent Laotian food in Sioux Falls, SD and recently had good Filipino food in some small town in Iowa.

 

[deleted480308]

Why not so? I, for one, would like to know the level of diversity before I move to a place.

For the record, I am a minority.

That’s sad, the race of those in town shouldn’t matter