(Serious) Why do 4th year students need supervision but midlevels don't?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
New PAs just out of school are watched like a hawk for their first few years. I embraced this with wide open arms when I first finished. We were not really as autonomous as you might think during this time. Experienced PAs are given the appropriate amount of latitude commensurate with their experience, sometimes that latitude is great, but make no mistake, it is earned. This system mostly regulates itself. The reason a 3rd or 4th year medical student is not given the autonomy is the same reason a PA with 1 or 2 years of experience is not given real autonomy, all the seriously sick patients would be dead meat.

Not the case everywhere... and.. NPs practice independently.
Doesn’t an NP have to have worked as a nurse for X number of years? Also simply to get into nursing school, isn’t there a bare minimum of hours where they have work NA jobs where they learn how to do things like fill vials (hence learn to divide 8/3), etc? I also felt PAs had a similar robust clinical requirement.

Well when an NP has to ask me what I meant by "s/p lap chole day 5" , that kind of proves the point that the RN experience didn't mean anything.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Doesn’t an NP have to have worked as a nurse for X number of years? Also simply to get into nursing school, isn’t there a bare minimum of hours where they have work NA jobs where they learn how to do things like fill vials (hence learn to divide 8/3), etc? I also felt PAs had a similar robust clinical requirement.
For the well established programs... Online NP schools are popping in every corner now and they don't require any experience...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Not the case everywhere... and.. NPs practice independently.


Well when an NP has to ask me what I meant by "s/p lap chole day 5" , that kind of proves the point that the RN experience didn't mean anything.

Aw come on, you know that’s not fair. Like we didn’t even know what that meant at one point. They probably just say the whole thing or say gallbladder removal. It’s kind of like us when we go to a consult service and don’t know what abbreviations like LIMA are, etc ...but then learn it all in a day.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Aw come on, you know that’s not fair. Like we didn’t even know what that meant at one point. They probably just say the whole thing or say gallbladder removal. It’s kind of like us when we go to a consult service and don’t know the jingo...but then learn it all in a day.
If you're a 4th year med student or a graduating midlevel and don't know what that means, I have some bad news.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Aw come on, you know that’s not fair. Like we didn’t even know what that meant at one point. They probably just say the whole thing or say gallbladder removal. It’s kind of like us when we go to a consult service and don’t know the jingo...but then learn it all in a day.
This is kind of unbelievable to me. How could you not understand what a lap chole is?

Also, I am an ICU/Stepdown RN. We generally think of many floor nurses as idiots. And don't get me started on doctors office or nursing home RNs. Not ALL of them... but.. yeah..

I have cussed out several floor charge nurses or patients primary nurses to the point of crying when responding to a code because they're plain NEGLIGENT. Pisses me off. Im taking no chest compressions, standing outside the room. "What the F ARE YOU DOING?!" "Uhhhhh calling the doctorrrr". WTF IS THE DOCTOR GOING TO DO? It makes me MAD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
If you're a 4th year med student or a graduating midlevel and don't know what that means, I have some bad news.
Any RN should know what status post, lap, and chole all mean.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
If you're a 4th year med student or a graduating midlevel and don't know what that means, I have some bad news.

Didn’t I spell out what it meant in my next sentence? I’m not really impressed with jingo. I’ll be graduating soon and didn’t know what 2/2 meant in a note and had to look it up now I do. The math is a bit more troubling.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Any RN should know what status post, lap, and chole all mean.
Not exactly the case in real life or the NP wouldn't have asked me that. I have many other examples that are similar with a variety of midlevels and also RNs. You just never see this at all with fresh new interns.
 
Not exactly the case in real life or the NP wouldn't have asked me that. I have many other examples that are similar with a variety of midlevels and also RNs. You just never see this at all with fresh new interns.
The thing is, residents may know the lingo etc, but I feel like they freeze in stressful situations. During codes, the residents often get pushed out of the room unless they're more experienced. My favorite pulmonologist- I quote "I don't want to see any residents in here! GET OUT" or "I DONT WANT TO SEE ANOTHER GD RESIDENT TONIGHT! (Speaking to the RNs) DONT LET THEM NEAR ME".

on surgical ICU we had residents come to a code where the patient wasn't breathing and had a difficult airway and told the same well respected pulmonologist that they didn't plan on intubating when he told them "You got the RSI kit ready?". He got PISSED and said "WHAT THE F AM I DOING HERE THEN?! YOU HANDLE IT!" and the respiratory therapists were like "Really?! Cant we intubate?! Come on!"
 
Not the case everywhere... and.. NPs practice independently.

I get you. But I am only speaking about PAs here. And in the several places I've worked at over the years, conferences I've attended, colleagues I've met around the country, this is a fairly uniform experience with new grad PAs. If you asked around to other PAs, you'd probably get a similar story. But yes, I'm sure there's some outliers somewhere, it's a big country. Sounds to me that what you're really upset about is NPs working independently. I can't really comment there because I am not an NP, but I have never met a cowboy among them in an actual patient care scenario. The experienced NPs I've met have been more than ready to punt to the Doc when things get outside their comfort zone. I would hope they have a similar culture for their new grads. Maybe a former NP now Doc can add something here.
 
The thing is, residents may know the lingo etc, but I feel like they freeze in stressful situations. During codes, the residents often get pushed out of the room unless they're more experienced. My favorite pulmonologist- I quote "I don't want to see any residents in here! GET OUT" or "I DONT WANT TO SEE ANOTHER GD RESIDENT TONIGHT! (Speaking to the RNs) DONT LET THEM NEAR ME".

on surgical ICU we had residents come to a code where the patient wasn't breathing and had a difficult airway and told the same well respected pulmonologist that they didn't plan on intubating when he told them "You got the RSI kit ready?". He got PISSED and said "WHAT THE F AM I DOING HERE THEN?! YOU HANDLE IT!" and the respiratory therapists were like "Really?! Cant we intubate?! Come on!"
...okay...? Procedural competency & confidence comes with time. RNs are there to help, not to do the procedure. When the burden is lower, the stress is as well.

And that attending is a *****. It's the fragmented intraprofession arguing that has allowed midlevels to expand. The ICU attending hates on residents and now we have NPs in the ICU of all places.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
...okay...? Procedural competency & confidence comes with time. RNs are there to help, not to do the procedure. When the burden is lower, the stress is as well.

And that attending is a *****. It's the fragmented intraprofession arguing that has allowed midlevels to expand. The ICU attending hates on residents and now we have NPs in the ICU of all places.
Hes actually an amazing CCMS doc, hes everyones go to doc. The other one, people are worried will get someone killed. He actually sent a corpse to surgery once... didn't realize they were dead. And yes he was present. Didn't bother to look.
 
...okay...? Procedural competency & confidence comes with time. RNs are there to help, not to do the procedure. When the burden is lower, the stress is as well.

And that attending is a *****. It's the fragmented intraprofession arguing that has allowed midlevels to expand. The ICU attending hates on residents and now we have NPs in the ICU of all places.
You realize RNs and RTs can intubate right? And I disagree. Its this country's really shoddy healthcare system imo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
You realize RNs and RTs can intubate right? And I disagree. Its this country's really shoddy healthcare system imo.
Of course. But very few places allow them to and for good reason.
 
The scope has been being encroached for some time. Do you realize it hasn't been long that RNs have been permitted to give IM injections or even take blood pressures? Its going to continue. I only seek MD for the knowledge and personal satisfaction. Its a poor financial choice, even though MD only will cost me 80-100k.
 
Most RN would not defend NP practice right with the fervent that med students are doing here. Almost all my RN friends don't trust NP to take care of their family member. Strange!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
The scope has been being encroached for some time. Do you realize it hasn't been long that RNs have been permitted to give IM injections or even take blood pressures? Its going to continue. I only seek MD for the knowledge and personal satisfaction. Its a poor financial choice, even though MD only will cost me 80-100k.
No it isn't

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Most RN would not defend NP practice right with the fervent that med students are doing here. Almost all my RN friends don't trust NP to take care of their family. Strange!
It really fluctuates on forums. Most of the time, students oppose NP rights.

Sometimes (like this thread) you get the politically correct students/residents/doctors who wouldn't say a word even if they had to take orders from a midlevel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Most RN would not defend NP practice right with the fervent that med students are doing here. Almost all my RN friends don't trust NP to take care of their family. Strange!
My main turnoff with the nursing profession is that its run by a bunch of old gossipy wenches that do nothing but turn everything into male vs female, and act like its some social revolution. That doesn't work for me. Bullshting my way through school is extremely hard.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
When you figure I have to pay the 80-100k, I will have 8 years of lost wages where I will make NOTHING, make chump change as a resident, and perhaps as a fellow, all the while incruing debt,

when I currently make 105-120k a year when im not a full time student like I am now, I don't think its my wisest choice financially. That's how I know its my passion. I want to do it anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I’m really enjoying the classic overly cocky 4th year medical student talk here.

Also the 100% stereotypical know it all nurse that everyone is surely excited to work with...

A truly great thread
 
  • Like
Reactions: 13 users
I’m really enjoying the classic overly cocky 4th year medical student talk here.

Also the 100% stereotypical know it all nurse that everyone is surely excited to work with...

A truly great thread
Who's being cocky? I wouldn't even trust most residents let alone students. It's all about putting things in perspective when it comes to midlevels who are somehow able to operate alone despite knowing the least.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Most RN would not defend NP practice right with the fervent that med students are doing here. Almost all my RN friends don't trust NP to take care of their family member. Strange!

I’m not defending midlevels right to practice independently. All I’m saying is that they’re probably not as stupid as we’re making them out to be and that they are better at some things initially because of the structure of their training. Just like height in gender, one group (nursing/PA/etc.) peaks first and is initially ahead, but the other catches up and has a significantly higher peak.
 
I’m not defending midlevels right to practice independently. All I’m saying is that they’re probably not as stupid as we’re making them out to be and that they are better at some things initially because of the structure of their training. Just like height in gender, one group (nursing/PA/etc.) peaks first and is initially ahead, but the other catches up and has a significantly higher peak.
Couldn't agree more. I don't like that midlevels can practice independently. But I also agree that theyre mostly not stupid. I just think that they have a better niche to fill than just trying to be a cheaper MD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I’m not defending midlevels right to practice independently. All I’m saying is that they’re probably not as stupid as we’re making them out to be and that they are better at some things initially because of the structure of their training. Just like height in gender, one group (nursing/PA/etc.) peaks first and is initially ahead, but the other catches up and has a significantly higher peak.
I am not saying they are stupid and I think they can serve a purpose if they set standards of who should be a NP.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Most schools I know of require a minimum of 2-3 years RN experience and I'm sure some complete only the minimum, but out of all of the RNs I know going to NP school (and I know quite a few. Probably in the neighborhood of a dozen), the least experience I know of is 5 years, and my best friend is graduating with his NP this May with 12 years RN experience.

I worked with several NPs who had less than 1 year of clinical experience (outside of minimal required hours to get their BSN/RN) when they were practicing. They were at a hospital so they were supervised, but I'm in a state where NPs can practice independently, so they could be seeing patient alone straight out of NP school with their <1 year of clinical experience. Most of the ones I've met don't want to practice independently, but the fact is that they legally could, which is a problem imo.

Nursing students are expected to report patient findings, interpret them superficially, and move forward.

If you weren't doing that and more as a medical student on clinical rotations then you should be questioning your clinical education. I had rotations where I was expected to perform as a resident and carry a solid patient load and basically make all the decisions (obviously with supervision), and I think more rotations should be like that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
upload_2018-3-31_23-47-26.png

This is the typical clinical curriculum of a PA school. Pretty similar to a 3rd year medical school curriculum. Once the 3rd year medical students take Step 2 CK, I think it's safe to say he/she knows a lot more than a fresh PA/NP grad.

I have had PA/NP students on rotation with me. Both are graduating in May this year and already have jobs lined up. To be honest, I am a little concerned if they are allowed to practice with minimal supervision.

I know what you mean 100%, OP. It makes no sense.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I honestly don't get this. A third year med student will have far more knowledge than a typical NP/PA. Only thing they lack is familiarity with the work setting.
So why are 4th year students supervised to such a degree yet midlevels can suddenly practice independently with a tiny fraction of the knowledge.

In more simple terms, why are students on rotations reduced to glorified shadowers when (far less competent) midlevels can go ahead and practice? The former carries so much liability risk for some reason yet the latter doesn't?

Enjoy the lack of responsibility- it’s fleeting and you will miss it one day, believe me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I honestly don't get this. A third year med student will have far more knowledge than a typical NP/PA. Only thing they lack is familiarity with the work setting.
So why are 4th year students supervised to such a degree yet midlevels can suddenly practice independently with a tiny fraction of the knowledge.

In more simple terms, why are students on rotations reduced to glorified shadowers when (far less competent) midlevels can go ahead and practice? The former carries so much liability risk for some reason yet the latter doesn't?
1) PAs do not practice independently right out of the gate, and even late in their careers work with physicians, not independent of them. Their first year or two is frequently a training period not unlike an intern. NPs are a different story.

2) An MS3 does not necessarily have “far more knowledge” than a typical PA more than a few years into practice in a particular specialty.

3) You are training to be a physician. Get over it. In a few years you will have more authority, responsibility and a higher salary than the NPs and PAs who are currently able to do more than you can as a student.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
An m3 is definitely more knowledgeable than most pas even with experience.

You don't need much to become an np, you can sign up online and be working when you're in your early 20s with zero bedside nursing experience.

That's not what bladder training is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
An m3 is definitely more knowledgeable than most pas even with experience.

You don't need much to become an np, you can sign up online and be working when you're in your early 20s with zero bedside nursing experience.

That's not what bladder training is.
Im referring to foley clamping bladder retraining.
 
lol. If I had a dollar for every time an RN asked a question or showed lack of confidence about something basic...
You wouldn't ever find a resident who doesn't know any of the long list of basics. But you'll find a *ton* of RNs and a very high number of NPs/PAs. That's the core fundamental difference. It's the consistency across one profession and the lack of across the others.


Nursing is not medicine. Medicine is not nursing. They are allied fields, and work together for the benefit of the patient, but they have different focuses and different bodies of knowledge. It may seem to you that nurses don't know things that you consider pretty basic. I bet you don't know a tenth of what they do about safe administration of potentially incompatible IV medications, though, among dozens of other practical skills and technical details that are incredibly important to not killing your patient, but that med students never learn because those things are not within the domain of medicine, but rather of nursing.

Also, there is the "Nurse Game." Nurses have had to work in a hierarchy where physicians have much more power and clout, and some physicians really enjoy putting other professionals "in their place" if they get too uppity and start making open recommendations for patient care. "Stay in your lane" is wise advice for everyone, but I have seen some attendings (and even brand new interns!) use it as a cudgel when a nurse speaks up to make a recommendation for patient care. So, part of the unwritten curriculum for nursing is playing the Nurse Game, as I call it.

It works like this. As the nurse, you know, very well, that the intern / resident / attending meant to do something or would mean to do that thing if they didn't have 10,000 other things on their plate. But, you also know that this particular one may have a personality disorder and/or a chip on their shoulder about nurses being too assertive. So, you don't say "Doctor, please put in an order to recheck the potassium." They will dress you down if you say it like that. So, you couch it as a question... "Gee, Doctor. I noticed that our patient's potassium came back at 5.8. I see you made some medication changes and there were some funny beats on the monitor just now.... Like, do you think we should just wait until AM labs and see if that makes a difference or....."

In many of the (admittedly kind of malignant) settings where I have worked, nurses play dumb like that so that the brilliant physician can be the one who had the good idea and we can all get on with the day. Playing the Nurse Game to make oblique suggestions dressed as questions is a very traditionally female communication pattern. It is passive, and honestly pretty pathological... but it is effective when dealing with fragile egos in a high stakes environment where what matters is outcomes, not how we get there.

When I explained it to one of my mentors, he kind of freaked out a little. He realized that nurses do this to him and other docs all the time. Up until then, I think he had assumed that a lot more nurses were really dumb enough to ask such obvious questions. Now, he hears them as the suggestions that they are and takes a moment to step back and re-engage in the conversation with more respect for what the other person is really trying to say. I've seen it lead to a lot more productive conversation in clinical environments... but it takes the person with the more power in the situation to have the maturity and emotional intelligence to listen to meta communication, rather than just taking everything at face value.

That isn't too common, alas.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Nursing is not medicine. Medicine is not nursing. They are allied fields, and work together for the benefit of the patient, but they have different focuses and different bodies of knowledge. It may seem to you that nurses don't know things that you consider pretty basic. I bet you don't know a tenth of what they do about safe administration of potentially incompatible IV medications, though, among dozens of other practical skills and technical details that are incredibly important to not killing your patient, but that med students never learn because those things are not within the domain of medicine, but rather of nursing.

Also, there is the "Nurse Game." Nurses have had to work in a hierarchy where physicians have much more power and clout, and some physicians really enjoy putting other professionals "in their place" if they get too uppity and start making open recommendations for patient care. "Stay in your lane" is wise advice for everyone, but I have seen some attendings (and even brand new interns!) use it as a cudgel when a nurse speaks up to make a recommendation for patient care. So, part of the unwritten curriculum for nursing is playing the Nurse Game, as I call it.

It works like this. As the nurse, you know, very well, that the intern / resident / attending meant to do something or would mean to do that thing if they didn't have 10,000 other things on their plate. But, you also know that they have a personality disorder and a chip on their shoulder about nurses being too assertive. So, you don't say "Doctor, please put in an order to recheck the potassium." They will dress you down if you say it like that. So, you couch it as a question... "Gee, Doctor. I noticed that our patient's potassium came back at 5.8. I see you made some medication changes.... Like, do you think we should just wait until AM labs and see if that makes a difference or....."

In many of the (admittedly kind of malignant) settings where I have worked, nurses play dumb like that so that the brilliant physician can be the one who had the good idea and we can all get on with the day. Playing the Nurse Game to make oblique suggestions dressed as questions is a very traditionally female communication pattern. It is passive, and honestly pretty pathological... but it is effective when dealing with fragile egos in a high stakes environment where what matters is outcomes, not how we get there.

When I explained it to one of my mentors, he kind of freaked out a little. He realized that nurses do this to him and other docs all the time. Up until then, I think he had assumed that a lot more nurses were really dumb enough to ask such obvious questions. Now, he hears them as the suggestions that they are and takes a moment to step back and re-engage in the conversation with more respect for what the other person is really trying to say. I've seen it lead to a lot more productive conversation in clinical environments... but it takes the person with the more power in the situation to have the maturity and emotional intelligence to listen to meta communication, rather than just taking everything at face value.

That isn't too common, alas.
Its sort of like practicing medicine without the backing up. We nurses put so many orders in and sign a doctor, and its a game of knowing which doctors are cool with you putting orders in under their names and which ones aren't. And which orders are okay to and which ones aren't. You know, so you don't wake up a resident or attending at 1 am for something stupid. But youre ALWAYS taking a risk.

Ive noticed though, being a male, I can talk to the physicians in a different tone than that. I refuse to act like what I call a "bitch". If I see something I am going to speak up. If they take it professionally, I will speak professionally. If they get a 'tude I get one right back. I'm not going to get fired. If I do, its not hard to get a job as a nurse anyway. But so far they've all respected me for being like "hey don't you mean so and so?" or "Hey lets do this. That cool with you?"
 
Its sort of like practicing medicine without the backing up. We nurses put so many orders in and sign a doctor, and its a game of knowing which doctors are cool with you putting orders in under their names and which ones aren't. And which orders are okay to and which ones aren't. You know, so you don't wake up a resident or attending at 1 am for something stupid. But youre ALWAYS taking a risk.

Ive noticed though, being a male, I can talk to the physicians in a different tone than that. I refuse to act like what I call a "bitch". If I see something I am going to speak up. If they take it professionally, I will speak professionally. If they get a 'tude I get one right back. I'm not going to get fired. If I do, its not hard to get a job as a nurse anyway. But so far they've all respected me for being like "hey don't you mean so and so?" or "Hey lets do this. That cool with you?"

Yeah. Being a male nurse does change the dynamic, sadly. I started my nursing career (and my life) as a girl, and was heavily indoctrinated with passive communication styles to survive some early toxic environments. It is hard to say how much of the greater respect that I received in later years as a nurse was due to the difference in my perceived gender (no one would mistake me for a girl these days!) and how much could be attributed to growing confidence/competence in my role.

I do know that I have repeated the very same recommendation that a female nurse or medical student had just been told was stupid and had the very same intern / resident / attending listen to me and agree with it the second time. Maybe they just had that little bit more time to think it through... but I've almost never seen it work in reverse. There has never really been a time that I or any other male has said something, been shot down, and had a female student/nurse say the same thing and have it accepted.
 
Yeah. Being a male nurse does change the dynamic, sadly. I started my nursing career (and my life) as a girl, and was heavily indoctrinated with passive communication styles to survive some early toxic environments. It is hard to say how much of the greater respect that I received in later years as a nurse was due to the difference in my perceived gender (no one would mistake me for a girl these days!) and how much could be attributed to growing confidence/competence in my role.

I do know that I have repeated the very same recommendation that a female nurse or medical student had just been told was stupid and had the very same intern / resident / attending listen to me and agree with it the second time. Maybe they just had that little bit more time to think it through... but I've almost never seen it work in reverse. There has never really been a time that I or any other male has said something, been shot down, and had a female student/nurse say the same thing and have it accepted.
I'm a 240 pound powerlifter, I figure that's part of why I rarely have anyone get an attitude with me. In work or outside.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Back to the original topic...

RNs have a minimum of 2 years of education... some up to 4.
LPNs can have as little as 1 year.

Why isn't a 2nd year RN student given the same scope of practice as a fully licensed new grad LPN? Because their roles are different. The LPN is there as a fully trained licensed professional ready to engage in their scope of practice at a novice level. The RN student is there as a learner, preparing for an expanded role. They are *not* there to fulfill the same productive role as the LPN.

In the same way, a 4th year student may have more didactic education, and even, more clinical education than a newly minted PA/NP. But, they are not supposed to be production units at that stage of their education. They are there to learn, to prepare for an expanded role. The quality of the learning may vary based upon the particular precepting attending and how much they are comfortable allowing their students to do. Students require supervision. They aren't licensed, and they aren't fully trained to the role that they are preparing to fill... even if they could have, with the same time span of education, have prepared to fill a different role. That isn't what they trained for, and they can't assume that their training was precisely equivalent.

An intern isn't even really unsupervised, nor for that matter, are residents. There is a progressive increase in responsibility and autonomy as one progresses through residency to become an attending. This is a robust system that seems to work very well to produce the desired result of fully trained, fully competent physicians. Let other professions take whatever shortcuts they want. Cling fast to the quality that our education produces and let it be the final and unconquerable argument against midlevel encroachment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Back to the original topic...

RNs have a minimum of 2 years of education... some up to 4.
LPNs can have as little as 1 year.

Why isn't a 2nd year RN student given the same scope of practice as a fully licensed new grad LPN? Because their roles are different. The LPN is there as a fully trained licensed professional ready to engage in their scope of practice at a novice level. The RN student is there as a learner, preparing for an expanded role. They are *not* there to fulfill the same productive role as the LPN.

In the same way, a 4th year student may have more didactic education, and even, more clinical education than a newly minted PA/NP. But, they are not supposed to be production units at that stage of their education. They are there to learn, to prepare for an expanded role. The quality of the learning may vary based upon the particular precepting attending and how much they are comfortable allowing their students to do. Students require supervision. They aren't licensed, and they aren't fully trained to the role that they are preparing to fill... even if they could have, with the same time span of education, have prepared to fill a different role. That isn't what they trained for, and they can't assume that their training was precisely equivalent.

An intern isn't even really unsupervised, nor for that matter, are residents. There is a progressive increase in responsibility and autonomy as one progresses through residency to become an attending. This is a robust system that seems to work very well to produce the desired result of fully trained, fully competent physicians. Let other professions take whatever shortcuts they want. Cling fast to the quality that our education produces and let it be the final and unconquerable argument against midlevel encroachment.
Infact, quality is what sets MDs apart. And im not talking midlevels vs residents. Im talking a 30 year MD vs a 30 year Midlevel. That's where you see the difference. Not at the starting line, but the finish line.
 
Infact, quality is what sets MDs apart. And im not talking midlevels vs residents. Im talking a 30 year MD vs a 30 year Midlevel. That's where you see the difference. Not at the starting line, but the finish line.

The difference is far earlier than that. Try again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Infact, quality is what sets MDs apart. And im not talking midlevels vs residents. Im talking a 30 year MD vs a 30 year Midlevel. That's where you see the difference. Not at the starting line, but the finish line.

Is this some sort of joke? I was better than every midlevel as an intern. I couldn't tell at the time but as you progress and see the people who come in the year after you, you really realize how far you've come. There's just no comparison with any level of attending vs midlevel.

There's no basis for comparison as the baseline education level is not even close to the same scale. It's absurd that every nursing school in the country is indoctrinating their students with this nonsense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
The difference is far earlier than that. Try again.
I'm not saying it takes that long but im making the point that the ceiling is much higher.

Psai that's a lot of midlevels... You're just an amazing human being. Cheers

Years of being in the ICU and stepdown has shown me, the type of resident matters... not all fields/schools/whatever it is are equally competent.

I'm not basing this off of what I was taught in school, I'm basing it off the fact that there are certain groups of residents that DAY after DAY, continually make what we see as STUPID mistakes, and day after day tell the attendings and it's clear that these residents were negligent.

That being said- LSU ENT is on point. Just gonna say it. You guys rock,
 
Last edited:
The fact is that NP are practicing medicine; they aren't practicing 'advanced nursing' (whatever that means).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I have cussed out several floor charge nurses or patients primary nurses to the point of crying when responding to a code because they're plain NEGLIGENT. Pisses me off. Im taking no chest compressions, standing outside the room. "What the F ARE YOU DOING?!" "Uhhhhh calling the doctorrrr". WTF IS THE DOCTOR GOING TO DO?

Apparently high quality chest compressions
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Apparently high quality chest compressions
Hopefully so. The ******* floor nurse sure wasn't gonna do it.

Last week I saw a floor charge nurse doing CPR with one hand, parallel to the bed. I don't understand how this sht happens
 
Love these naive medical students who think their 2 years of didactic training should provide them autonomy. It’s actually quite cute.

Right because some online classes and 500 hours of following that NPs do is an acceptable alternative. The only reason they could even manage a single patient is just because they memorized an algorithm for a few presentations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I'm more so comparing a fresh graduate NP/PA to a student. Even still, a student could spend 3 months in that clinic and make more detailed clinical decisions than the NP could.

I'm not arguing for unsupervised students. I'm arguing for supervised midlevels :)

Also, what practical training has a midlevel completed that a 4th year student hasn't? The midlevel actually has significantlyyy less clinical hours. Hence it's mind boggling the midlevel can operate alone.



It absolutely shouldn't. Point is midlevels should not have autonomy.

This thread is ridiculous. PA’s aren’t just thrown into caring for patients on day 1 of the job. They basically are trained under the wing of the hiring physician for a while before taking control of the patients on their own. It’s like if they took a 4th year med student and trained them to see the patients how they want to and what they want. Meanwhile I would not trust a fellow 4th year with anything right off the bat.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Doesn’t an NP have to have worked as a nurse for X number of years? Also simply to get into nursing school, isn’t there a bare minimum of hours where they have work NA jobs where they learn how to do things like fill vials (hence learn to divide 8/3), etc? I also felt PAs had a similar robust clinical requirement.

Nope, my friend's wife is making a career change and is in an accelerated program where she'll graduate with her RN+BSN. Never stepped foot in a hospital or clinical setting before.
 
I'm a 240 pound powerlifter, I figure that's part of why I rarely have anyone get an attitude with me. In work or outside.

C'mon man, this reads like something straight out of /r/Iamverybadass.

None of the attendings are intimidated by your physique, big guy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
This thread is ridiculous. PA’s aren’t just thrown into caring for patients on day 1 is the job. They basically are trained under the wing of the hiring physician for a while before taking control of the patients on their own. It’s like if they took a 4th year med student and trained them to see the patients how they want to and what they want. Meanwhile I would not trust a fellow 4th year with anything right off the bat.

Exactly.
/endthread
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The fact is that NP are practicing medicine; they aren't practicing 'advanced nursing' (whatever that means).

Exactly the issue



Nursing is not medicine. Medicine is not nursing. They are allied fields, and work together for the benefit of the patient, but they have different focuses and different bodies of knowledge. It may seem to you that nurses don't know things that you consider pretty basic. I bet you don't know a tenth of what they do about safe administration of potentially incompatible IV medications, though, among dozens of other practical skills and technical details that are incredibly important to not killing your patient, but that med students never learn because those things are not within the domain of medicine, but rather of nursing.

Also, there is the "Nurse Game." Nurses have had to work in a hierarchy where physicians have much more power and clout, and some physicians really enjoy putting other professionals "in their place" if they get too uppity and start making open recommendations for patient care. "Stay in your lane" is wise advice for everyone, but I have seen some attendings (and even brand new interns!) use it as a cudgel when a nurse speaks up to make a recommendation for patient care. So, part of the unwritten curriculum for nursing is playing the Nurse Game, as I call it.

It works like this. As the nurse, you know, very well, that the intern / resident / attending meant to do something or would mean to do that thing if they didn't have 10,000 other things on their plate. But, you also know that this particular one may have a personality disorder and/or a chip on their shoulder about nurses being too assertive. So, you don't say "Doctor, please put in an order to recheck the potassium." They will dress you down if you say it like that. So, you couch it as a question... "Gee, Doctor. I noticed that our patient's potassium came back at 5.8. I see you made some medication changes and there were some funny beats on the monitor just now.... Like, do you think we should just wait until AM labs and see if that makes a difference or....."

In many of the (admittedly kind of malignant) settings where I have worked, nurses play dumb like that so that the brilliant physician can be the one who had the good idea and we can all get on with the day. Playing the Nurse Game to make oblique suggestions dressed as questions is a very traditionally female communication pattern. It is passive, and honestly pretty pathological... but it is effective when dealing with fragile egos in a high stakes environment where what matters is outcomes, not how we get there.

When I explained it to one of my mentors, he kind of freaked out a little. He realized that nurses do this to him and other docs all the time. Up until then, I think he had assumed that a lot more nurses were really dumb enough to ask such obvious questions. Now, he hears them as the suggestions that they are and takes a moment to step back and re-engage in the conversation with more respect for what the other person is really trying to say. I've seen it lead to a lot more productive conversation in clinical environments... but it takes the person with the more power in the situation to have the maturity and emotional intelligence to listen to meta communication, rather than just taking everything at face value.

That isn't too common, alas.

Proving my point about it being two different scopes. I value nursing opinion very highly, when it's in their own scope.

Its sort of like practicing medicine without the backing up. We nurses put so many orders in and sign a doctor, and its a game of knowing which doctors are cool with you putting orders in under their names and which ones aren't. And which orders are okay to and which ones aren't. You know, so you don't wake up a resident or attending at 1 am for something stupid. But youre ALWAYS taking a risk.

Ive noticed though, being a male, I can talk to the physicians in a different tone than that. I refuse to act like what I call a "bitch". If I see something I am going to speak up. If they take it professionally, I will speak professionally. If they get a 'tude I get one right back. I'm not going to get fired. If I do, its not hard to get a job as a nurse anyway. But so far they've all respected me for being like "hey don't you mean so and so?" or "Hey lets do this. That cool with you?"
Sure, but I've heard plenty of useless suggestions made too. That's when the doctors roll their eyes.
I'm a 240 pound powerlifter, I figure that's part of why I rarely have anyone get an attitude with me. In work or outside.
Well we have that in common but trust me no one gets intimidated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top