second thoughts about vet school

[28dragons]

Hello all! I am a first year vet student, in my second semester, and I'm having second thoughts about this path I'm on. It's a whole range of issues, but a big part of it is financial. I'm probably going to be over $140,000 in debt when I get out, and I hear it's getting harder and harder to find a job (eg. http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=18590). I did some cursory job searches on indeed.com for veterinary positions in New York, NY and found very little, too; if I were out looking for a job right now it would probably be extremely difficult, and it feels like it'll only get worse when I graduate in 2015 - more and more new vets are coming out every year.

And I'm reading all these client horror stories on Vets Behaving Badly (http://vetsbehavingbadly.blogspot.com/) making me think twice about small animal medicine, heh. I know that not all clients are as awful as the ones portrayed here, but it's making me wonder if it's worth it to work so hard and be valued so little, and have so little earning power. I'm not sure if I'll be happy.

I have thought about dropping out; as I have four months left I'm just going to finish the semester, but I have been thinking about leaving for a while. I've been miserable in school. The workload is tremendous; it's all book learning right now, and gross anatomy labs. I do like the actual physical work with the animals, but otherwise I'm feeling really burned out. I don't know what I would do if I left, though; I was thinking about human dentistry, as it was one of my interests in undergrad but veterinary medicine interested me more at the time. Now I am here, and I'm very uncertain.

Is it worth it to keep going? Has anyone else had second thoughts? Does anyone know anyone who dropped out, and what they're doing? Is it possible to go to dental school after dropping out of veterinary school? Thanks so much for any help.

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[cowgirla]

I can't answer your questions one way or another- it's really something you need to come to terms with yourself, but a few things you should consider (if you havent already).

1) Will the work load of dental school be lower? Will that difference be enough to keep you from being burned out? I'm not familiar with dental school, but I suspect they must do their share of book learning as well.

2) Have you looked at the debt load of dental schools (And loan payments for the debt loads) and average starting salaries? Make sure you include any debt from this current year of vet school when calculating that.

3) Have you considered the job prospects for a dental career? (Also consider possibilities of emergency work, hours per week, etc for both dental and vet).

4) Are you restricted to the NYC area, or can you give yourself the flexibility of working somewhere to gain experience for a few years and then moving back to the city? It can be "Easier" to find a job once you have some experience under your belt. As I'm sure you know, city living is expensive. No matter the the career field, consider your debt, potential student loan payment and average starting salary for that area (it will be higher than most areas, but will it be high enough?) and decide if living there right out of school will even be possible. It's not something I'd want to attempt but I'm not a city girl!

5) Do you meet all the pre-req requirements for dental school, or will you have to spend time preparing for that?

6) Vets deal with crazy clients... I'm sure dentists see their fair share of them as well, in addition to the ones who are just plain old terrified of having people messing around in their mouth.

7) What are you future personal plans? Family, etc. How would either field affect those?

Dropping out can be done, and plenty of people do it for various reasons. You need to make sure that's the right decision for you and that you can live with it without wondering "What if" every day.
As for someone who left vet school- she's not pursuing dental, but try sending flyhi a message. She left vet school and is pursuing an alternate path now, and seems quite content with her decision. Vet school can be soul crushing- most people have no argument about that. And if there is something else that will make you happy long term (not just financially), then maybe you owe it to yourself to consider that plan.

Personally, I'd suggest shadowing a dentist, etc, to get a feel for that career before making any final decisions, to see what their day to day life is like. You want to find something that makes you happy, not jump from one frying pan into another!
FWIW, I HATED HATED HATED first year vet school, especially the spring semester. Honestly did not think I was going to pass any of my classes I was so miserable, and had a few different people tell me to take a year off, etc. . But as much as I hated vet school, I still loved veterinary medicine more than anything. And second year has been 1000x better so far, at least at my school, and I'm glad I'm here.

 

[elefante7]

I would recommend talking to someone in your school such as a counseling service (often these are provided free of charge in veterinary schools). Sorting through the stress of first year might help you sort out what you really want.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I agree with elefante7 - speak to a counselor to sort out what is "first-year vet school" stress, and what is "is this the right career path for me" stress. If you are going to change paths, you don't want to rack up too much more vet school debt, but you also don't want to mistake growing pains for something bigger. Good luck figuring it out

 

[28dragons]

Thanks everyone for your great and kind advice; I was thinking about seeing a counselor too

 

[Ben and Me]

For what it's worth, I hated first year...with a passion. I cried multiple times a day for the entire second half of 4th quarter -- I called home in the middle of the night sobbing several times. My mom flew to Philadelphia 2 weekends in a row because she was so worried about me. I also thought seriously about not coming back after first year. But each year has gotten loads better -- more clinically relevant (which is important for me) and more enjoyable -- and I'm really glad that I've stuck with it. For me, the hardest part of first year was seeing how everything applied. I know now that the stuff I learned first year was important, but it was really hard to see and believe that at the time. The good news is that the really important stuff comes up again and again, so even if you felt stupid for all of first year, it gets a little easier. And you are learning more than you think you are.

By 4th year, everyone has had a chance to be good at something -- some folks are really good at remembering insane factoids, some people have a lot of common sense and can reason through problems, some people have awesome animal handling and technical skills. Unfortunately, during first year, the only people who really shine are those who can memorize the factoids...but it all evens out. Today I cried...because I was laughing so hard!

Another thing I've learned from speaking with various private practitioners, clinicians, etc is that everyone has a very unique veterinary school experience. Some folks love 1st year and HATE 4th year, others really thrive in 4th year after struggling through 1st and 2nd year. Some love the whole thing, some are miserable. But, all these folks made it through and are great vets. There isn't a right or a wrong way to feel about vet school, although seeing all the insanely happy, loving vet school first year peers makes it harder -- but I guarantee for every happy, outgoing, thriving 1st year, there is another that is in your shoes -- you AREN'T alone, even if it feels like you are sometimes.

Chin up and make it to the summer -- and then, do some soul searching. If it's your thing, try to do some externships or get a job (or find something that you're passionate about) to remind yourself of why you're there. I had a few externships between 1st and 2nd year, which reminded me why I was doing vet school and gave me some newfound motivation for 2nd year.

 

[libster06]

For what it's worth, I hated first year...with a passion. I cried multiple times a day for the entire second half of 4th quarter -- I called home in the middle of the night sobbing several times. My mom flew to Philadelphia 2 weekends in a row because she was so worried about me. I also thought seriously about not coming back after first year. But each year has gotten loads better -- more clinically relevant (which is important for me) and more enjoyable -- and I'm really glad that I've stuck with it. For me, the hardest part of first year was seeing how everything applied. I know now that the stuff I learned first year was important, but it was really hard to see and believe that at the time. The good news is that the really important stuff comes up again and again, so even if you felt stupid for all of first year, it gets a little easier. And you are learning more than you think you are.

By 4th year, everyone has had a chance to be good at something -- some folks are really good at remembering insane factoids, some people have a lot of common sense and can reason through problems, some people have awesome animal handling and technical skills. Unfortunately, during first year, the only people who really shine are those who can memorize the factoids...but it all evens out. Today I cried...because I was laughing so hard!

Another thing I've learned from speaking with various private practitioners, clinicians, etc is that everyone has a very unique veterinary school experience. Some folks love 1st year and HATE 4th year, others really thrive in 4th year after struggling through 1st and 2nd year. Some love the whole thing, some are miserable. But, all these folks made it through and are great vets. There isn't a right or a wrong way to feel about vet school, although seeing all the insanely happy, loving vet school first year peers makes it harder -- but I guarantee for every happy, outgoing, thriving 1st year, there is another that is in your shoes -- you AREN'T alone, even if it feels like you are sometimes.

Chin up and make it to the summer -- and then, do some soul searching. If it's your thing, try to do some externships or get a job (or find something that you're passionate about) to remind yourself of why you're there. I had a few externships between 1st and 2nd year, which reminded me why I was doing vet school and gave me some newfound motivation for 2nd year.

AMAZING! This encouraged ME and I didn't even really need it... it's all so true. I am in that small percentage that, while I didn't want to quit after first year, I was utterly beaten down and had little to no faith in myself and my ability to actually finish what I'd started. I still have almost no motivation for the school side of this endeavor, but I CAN see the forest for the trees and I know this isn't where my road ends. There's a lot more to be seen and experienced if I just wait it out.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Ben and Me makes many excellent points. I was also one of those people who almost didn't make it through vet school. Remeber - vet school is just that - SCHOOL. It won't be like this forever. Memorizing a deluge of factoids and being a good test-taker, while it gives you a good foundation of knowledge, is only part of being a vet. Despite my hatred of school (as I have probably mentioned in other threads, I almost dropped out in my third year because I was so burned out), I am very glad I chose this career path.

 

[SMHVET]

There is a huge problem with the debt ratio to salary in the veterinary world. I am partially lucky because I had a college fund that paid for all but $40,000 in vet school loans. My monthly school debt payment is $300. Unlike with a car or a house, I cannot go bankrupt and lose that debt. It will follow me until I die or pay it off. And in some states, if you default on it, you lose your license, so you lose your ability to make money.

When I got out of school, there were about 7 jobs offers for every student. Now, students send out 40 plus resumes and are lucky to find a job that they can tolerate. And there are bad jobs out there: jobs that will burn you out, jobs where bosses and staff belittle you, and jobs that have practices where you could lose your license due to the level of medicine practiced (has anyone seen Dr. Pol???). Most of the places that do practice good medicine will either not be hiring because the doctors there know the problem with jobs and they are holding onto theirs with freakish strength.

And with so many resumes coming across clinic owner's desks, you better believe that they will try to find the cheapest person that will fit the bill. Because with that many people asking about a job, there are plenty of people that could do the job or fit in...the biggest difference will be in what pay people are willing to take.

The other hidden gem that is cropping up in vet med is similar to what the lawyers are experiencing. Many of the jobs are not full time. So, kiss that benefits package goodbye! So lets break it down:

$50,000 gross:
When you take out about 30% for taxes, that leaves you:
$35,000 "take home"
Minus AVMA dues: $300
Minus PLIT dues: $394
Minus state/city association dues: $200-300
DEA: $200/yr
State license: mine is $200
State Professional Privilege Tax: $400/yr
CE: $1500
That leaves about $30,303 if your job doesn't pay benefits.

So, that means you have $2525 per month to spend on living.
Now, imagine that this income is made up of two part time jobs: this means that you have to pay for insurance, AFTER taxes are taken out.
$2525- $500 insurance- $2025 per month.

No, I take out my cost of loan payment:$300
$1725 a month. That $50,000 a year salary was just cut down to less than $21,000 per year. What happens if your student loan is $140,000 instead of $40,000? What happens when it is $240,000?

I have worked at practices where I made $38,000 and I was on call and covered emergency there. I have worked at a large referral institute and made between $15,000 and $25,000 per month but I often worked 90 plus hours a week.

Honestly, if I was facing the debt load that current students face and expected to either live alone or be the primary breadwinner in the family, I would find something else to do. And that is not to say that I don't enjoy being a vet. I love the work. But if I was facing the same costs of med students, I would go to med school and do med corp. My friend did that and after her residency, she spent 5 years in a large city, making $125,000 per year and her student loan was erased.

Vet school itself can cause PTSD in some people. I would say that doubting based on how you feel about the class load itself is completely normal, no matter where you are in class rank. However, it would be a serious mistake to think that "Oh, I won't think about this massive debt... I will just get a job and be able to pay for it because I went to vet school." Practicality has to be at the forefront of your minds. Especially once the newly accredited by the AVMA schools start pumping out the grads. Even the Banfield jobs will dry up then. Especially when they can hire a vet from UNAM, where the students don't have to pay for school.

Sorry to be such a downer, but reality can be harsh. And when established vets are talking about having to go bankrupt because they cannot find a good job (based on the practice, not just on the pay), you need to be concerned.

Thinking about this is a good idea. If you don't think about it now, the surprise later may be your downfall.

 

[lailanni]

Vet school itself can cause PTSD in some people. I would say that doubting based on how you feel about the class load itself is completely normal, no matter where you are in class rank. However, it would be a serious mistake to think that "Oh, I won't think about this massive debt... I will just get a job and be able to pay for it because I went to vet school." Practicality has to be at the forefront of your minds. Especially once the newly accredited by the AVMA schools start pumping out the grads. Even the Banfield jobs will dry up then. Especially when they can hire a vet from UNAM, where the students don't have to pay for school.

Sorry to be such a downer, but reality can be harsh. And when established vets are talking about having to go bankrupt because they cannot find a good job (based on the practice, not just on the pay), you need to be concerned.

Thinking about this is a good idea. If you don't think about it now, the surprise later may be your downfall.

Really excellent points. It is a downer, but that is the reality of it. As a 2012'er, I don't know anyone not freaking out about money, jobs, and the future. Many people are somewhat desperately trying for internships (very low pay, in the 20-30k range depending on area) just to get something. The people I've heard with private practice job offers have connections somehow; it hasn't been through the regular resume/interview process. Take it with a grain of salt, as I haven't sat down and interviewed the whole class, but that has been my impression.

About vet school causing PTSD, I would have to agree. It's certainly not the same type as coming back home from war, but it can really mess with you psychologically. It's a lot of hours, a lot of stress, a lot of work, and it's not the best for everyone. Perhaps a more commonly used word would be burnout or compassion fatigue.

For me, personally, I don't love animals like I used to. I'm so burnt out from being at school all the time I feel like I don't have anything left to give. I see another animal and I just think about how much more work and how many more hours it's going to keep me at school. All the paperwork I'll have to do. All the tests I need to run. What might the clinician ask me, what systems are affected with these blood values, what medications are indicated and contraindicated, etc. Maybe I'm just a crapsack, but school has been detrimental to my personal wellbeing and love of animals.

I do plan on taking an extended break after school. Hopefully after a while my enjoyment of medicine will come back and I'll have some desire to practice. Fortunately, my financial circumstances will allow this time off.

As SMHVET mentioned, if you are going to be the sole breadwinner or plan on living alone, the vet med route is financially not the strongest idea. If that's coupled with a genuine dislike for the work, maybe it's time to reevaluate your plans.

Keep in mind though, vet school is not the real world. It's very far from it. While you may hate classes, you might enjoy practice. And if you're not into private practice, there are other fields like industry, lab animal, etc.

Don't feel ashamed if you decide this isn't want you want to do. It takes a lot of guts to look at a big part of your life and potentially say "this is not for me." Better to know it now rather than 4 years and massive debt later. Best of luck and keep us posted!

 

[bunnity]

If there have been any studies on the PTSD vet school thing, I would love to see them!

 

[lailanni]

Offhand I'm not sure if there's PTSD research, but I know there's a good body of literature on burnout and compassion fatigue. I'd be surprised if we have anything that could be described as PTSD since we haven't seen our best friends blown up in combat and whatnot, but no doubt we have some concerning mental health and wellness issues in the veterinary community.

(I did my senior paper on the high veterinary suicide rate and it's theoretical components, I ran across quite a bit of that stuff). I can try and see if I have any of those links still around...

 

[VET 2008]

Now, students send out 40 plus resumes and are lucky to find a job that they can tolerate.

They are sending out a lot more than that. Huge percentages of the class of 2011 are still unemployed and it isn't only because they are unwilling to relocate.

 

[VET 2008]

(I did my senior paper on the high veterinary suicide rate and it's theoretical components, I ran across quite a bit of that stuff). I can try and see if I have any of those links still around...

Has it been increasing in the last few years? Just wondering

 

[VET 2008]

I would really reconsider vet school if I were you. Get out while you can because the longer you stay in, the more debt you will accumulate. I know SOOO many people who wish they had made different decisions about going to vet school. You really should talk to someone and reconsider. I had the same feels and wish I had acted on them but I kept on thinking it would be OK and I was already in debt with the loans I had taken out already. Honestly, only 1 of my vet school friends is happy she is a vet and she is onto internship number 5 because she can't match for a residency (and she is great! Top 10 of our class). Specializing is not what it use to be either; most all fields are saturated or very near saturation.

 

[Saffine]

Offhand I'm not sure if there's PTSD research, but I know there's a good body of literature on burnout and compassion fatigue. I'd be surprised if we have anything that could be described as PTSD since we haven't seen our best friends blown up in combat and whatnot, but no doubt we have some concerning mental health and wellness issues in the veterinary community.

(I did my senior paper on the high veterinary suicide rate and it's theoretical components, I ran across quite a bit of that stuff). I can try and see if I have any of those links still around...

Yeah they liken some of the veterinary stress related to euthanasia with PTSD but call it PITS (perpetration induced traumatic stress).

 

[28dragons]

I really have to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies; continuing is something I really have to think about. If the debt to salary ratio weren't so awful, I might not feel such misgivings. If I left, it wouldn't be because I couldn't handle the work, even though it's really rough; but would leaving because vet school just isn't the soundest financial decision be an acceptable reason for other professional schools I might apply to?

Only one or two people drop out a year, it seems, and some people don't drop out, just defer to the next year. No one ever seems to know the students who drop out, or why they do it, and what they're doing now; I wish I could talk to them (though I've already pmed flyhi ). There's more of a dialogue for this for medical students, I believe.

 

[notaperfectvet]

Dear Member,

I love being a vet. I've loved every day of vet school even the tough ones like learning about erysipylothrix rusopathea . I like squeezing anal glands and driving home with calf placenta on me. I like the challenge of convincing an owner that using flea control is a good thing and explaining why steroids are a bad thing.
I also love seeing unhealthy animals become healthy again.

But its not for everyone... And I've had some rotten days too, where I've felt like Dr Death and spent my lunch hour crying in the toilets... I'm not perfect.

Most of us who get into vet school have never quit anything or failed anything in our lives. And the thought of it happening when your in your 20's is insane right? Wrong - its bound to happen at some point. And its okay if it does.

A great professor once told me: Vet School is a great 1st or 2nd degree. But you can always do a 3rd or 4th too

I think the most important thing to decide on is What Do You Want From Life?
- A stimulating intellectual environment
- Time to spend with family
- Dedication to your job/profession
- Children
- Money
- Time out side of work
- Travel opportunities
- Other things

These are not all possible at the same time. And they are not always possible based on a single major choice like vet school either. Its okay to say it - no one is perfect.

If the money is a big issue for you and you feel overwhelmed its okay to take a step back. You have to do whats right for you. Not what other people expect you to do.
Maybe you wont find a job in small animal practice. Maybe you'll be drawn to india to reduce the incidence of rabies in developing communities. Or maybe you'll work on improving the fisheries industry and contributing to sustainable food resources for America. Or you'll become NY finest Rabbit Vet! There are lots of jobs for vets out here and the good ones (financially and intellectually) are far away from small animal practice - trust me!

I know some very clever people who became bus drivers, so they could have a lifestyle over a profession. I couldnt do that... but it worked for them. (extreme, I know)
I'm happy with my debt. It's my war wound, next to the accidental scalpel incisions on my hands and the scar where the horny goat stabbed me in the leg I'll probably never pay it back and will be living off a government pension when I'm 60.

But who knows! Maybe I'll get involved in a drug study or the next "Greenie" fad that will make me rich... I know! Cat Nip Flavoured Toothbrushes!!! MY IDEA (patent pending!!)

My point is:
1. Dont let the fear of not having what society tells you - you should have (like money and a job) - from stopping you doing something you might enjoy (like learning veterinary science and and understanding the human-animal bond)
2. Have the courage to admit you might want something different for yourself and take the leap to achieve it. You cant lose financially if you take a different path- Vet school's the biggest debt there is! Donald Trump eat your heart out


Meditate on what you want. The universe will conspire to assist you.

 

[VET 2008]

I think the most important thing to decide on is What Do You Want From Life?
- A stimulating intellectual environment
- Time to spend with family
- Dedication to your job/profession
- Children
- Money
- Time out side of work
- Travel opportunities
- Other things

These are not all possible at the same time. And they are not always possible based on a single major choice like vet school either. Its okay to say it - no one is perfect.

There are lots of jobs for vets out here and the good ones (financially and intellectually) are far away from small animal practice - trust me!

I

Very nice post.

Could you please tell me where these jobs are? I am looking and applying right now and am running out of options so I would love some more ideas about what I can look into. But I personally also don't think they are there... I would love to be proven wrong.

For me, things outside my job are going to be what makes me happy. This is what I've decided is best for me. I don't want my job to be my life. Others have and would make a different choice.

I also feel too old and tired to start a 3rd career. This is my choice. I think it is good for you to think about what is important to you. What is important to you now, may not always be important or be most important to you.

 

[sumstorm]

I am one of the individuals that wants to quit vet school several times every semester (and I'm in my third year); this latest time has nothing to do with school and everything to do with professional politics. Then I head to a clinic, or spend a day in the ER or talk over a behavior case, and I'm hooked again. I don't feel like I am in vet school because I want to be (and I have been saying that since day one) but because there isn't any other way to do what I want to do. I really do encourage the OP to talk to a counselor to sort out their own situation, since each one will be unique. Finances should be considered, but so should your life goals. Also, when you look at numbers, you need to look at more than your first few years...most of the associate vets I know that are more than 5 years out of practice are making $70k or more. The best, even as associates, are making over $90k, and I do know some owners less than five years out of school generating 6 figures comfortably. A mentor once told me 'The best will always have work in their chosen field." I have come, through 2 other careers, to realize that is true. Finally, we were told recently, in our ethics class, that the level of burn out students feel is known and intentional. I really find that an insulting concept because I really don't see the purpose of it (and I haven't taken the time to track down any resources on it.) However, it has made my attitude towards vet school change from viewing it as all my failings to a game someone else is playing that I am not well suitd for and isn't representative of my future career.

Good luck, whatever path you take.

 

[sumstorm]

Vet2008, how are you looking? In any field most openings aren't advertised and require a lot of networking. I know of at least 6 local FT associate positions open in my local area (which is vet heavy) that aren't advertised anywhere. I learned about them through my network; things like 'Dr. J over at Happy Dogs-R-Us is considering looking for an associate because he can't get to all the work coming in his door, do you know of anyone that would fit his practice?' The successful folks for these positions are good at networking but also very good at sharing what they bring to the practice in terms of business. IE 'Dr. J hired Dr C because she is really well connected with the local breeders and is excited about providing therio services, so she already has a client list of at least 20 people that will be wanting those services regularly. he's really excited for the oppurtunity to expand the business in that direction, and she is looking forward to learning skills in behavior work.'

 

[notaperfectvet]

"Very nice post". Why thank you

"Could you please tell me where these jobs are? I am looking and applying right now and am running out of options so I would love some more ideas about what I can look into. But I personally also don't think they are there... I would love to be proven wrong.


"For me, things outside my job are going to be what makes me happy. This is what I've decided is best for me. I don't want my job to be my life. Others have and would make a different choice."


I also feel too old and tired to start a 3rd career. This is my choice. I think it is good for you to think about what is important to you. What is important to you now, may not always be important or be most important to you.

OK - firstly - stop looking in all the usual places. Start looking in the department of health. Human health. Search through the private research labs doing animal studies and the think tanks in zoonotic disease or bioterrorism. Start Looking in the fisheries department and do a google search and locate companies that are in the field your interested in. Check out their profiles and search their sites for recruitment. If you dont want to do the leg work, contact a recruitment agency that works in the field of science, think tanks and development. It's not easy (your in left field now and the jobs wont be advertised for vets, most of them go to scientists because they don't realise a vet is probably better suited to the role)

I dont think we realise how privileged we are doing the vet degree. We have RARELY had to compete seriously for what we want until graduation. Its a CUT THROAT world out there for people in the middle rungs and if you want to step out of the "usual path" then be prepare to fight for what you want, and do the research to get it. It might mean your first role is not "veterinary" but with your talent, intellect and broad training you'll move through the ranks at lightening speed.

Hell, man - its a google world. Its not that hard any more....
Tap into your contacts - who taught the 3 aquatic health lectures you had at uni. They will be connected up to the eyeballs and freaked beyond belief that someone is interested in their field. Talk to the drug rep that comes to your clinic. They probably have the ear of their supervisor who is probably having lunch with a department head of marketing, finance and research tomorrow.

I am not going to search the classifieds for you - sorry - if you want the work - you can find it...Unless you want to pay me a recruitment fee like the companies get of 15% 1st year salary

My job is not my life - But it is a part of my life that I am proud of (warts and all). You have to fill all your spheres to be happy - and everyones spheres are different sizes. and funnily enough they're not always sphere shaped, either

I love your view on importance member 45...
Its so true. Its all about perspective.

 

[notaperfectvet]

IFinally, we were told recently, in our ethics class, that the level of burn out students feel is known and intentional. I really find that an insulting concept because I really don't see the purpose of it (and I haven't taken the time to track down any resources on it.) However, it has made my attitude towards vet school change from viewing it as all my failings to a game someone else is playing that I am not well suitd for and isn't representative of my future career.
.

That its known is probably true. That its intentional sounds like a load of codswhollop.
I'm sorry but whoever said that is an insensitive rude, unrealistic acaedemic who probably failed miserably in the social environment of veterinary practice and was exiled into research and education eventually becoming a lecturer. They were also probably fairly depressed by their own realisation of not-being-perfect and are having an internal power struggle which is coming out as these ridiculous comments above.

Ok- now then - from a the voice of a supportive person who's life is about caring for bunny rabbits and the people who own them - may I say:
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU IN IMPORTANT AND WORTHY.
You got the marks to get in, you came up with the money to pay for it. Good for you!!!

The reality is - it may not be what you thought it was going to be, and through that shock you may realise its not for you. THIS IS NOT BURN OUT... This is simply open awareness and identifying what is important to you.

Burn out is when you feel like there are no options. When you feel over worked, under-appreciated, helpless and hopeless. It is when you come to the end of your tether and can not see the forest through the trees.

BUT KNOW THIS - you are brilliant! you got into VET SCHOOL - HELL YEAH BABY! you can do ANYTHING YOU WANT. Shake that money maker!

so? what do you want?

PS: screw that guy that said that - s/he's excrement.

 

[sumstorm]

That its known is probably true. That its intentional sounds like a load of codswhollop. I'm sorry but whoever said that is an insensitive rude, unrealistic acaedemic who probably failed miserably in the social environment of veterinary practice and was exiled into research and education eventually becoming a lecturer. They were also probably fairly depressed by their own realisation of not-being-perfect and are having an internal power struggle which is coming out as these ridiculous comments above.

Wow, I hope to avoid working with individuals so judgemental that they feel they can say someone has 'failed miserably', 'exiled', and 'depressed' ...oh, btw, in this instance NONE of those are true. The clinician I referenced heads a single semester class and most of the class is guest lecturers, she is actually very well connected within and outside of vet med (part of the reason she leads this course is because of her connections in business, law, human medicine, social services, and other fields.) I wouldn't consider any of the remarks you made as applying to her. I also find it intersting that you believe, apparently, that every school must absolutly operate the exact same way. She is also not the only faculty member that has shared this information; I have also heard it from administrators. I suppose, though, that I should take your anonymous internet opinion above and beyond the multiple voices at our school. Wait, isn't that why Dr. Google is appropriate for our clients?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

OK - firstly - stop looking in all the usual places. Start looking in the department of health. Human health. Search through the private research labs doing animal studies and the think tanks in zoonotic disease or bioterrorism.

They tend to want PhDs and MDs more than DVMs. At the very least, in order to get deep in NIH, you need a PhD in addition to a DVM. They will rarely if ever, take a DVM with no research experience.

Tap into your contacts - who taught the 3 aquatic health lectures you had at uni. They will be connected up to the eyeballs and freaked beyond belief that someone is interested in their field. Start Looking in the fisheries department and do a google search and locate companies that are in the field your interested in.

Aquatic medicine is so strapped for funding right now that jobs are excessively scarce, and usually go to Fish and Wildlife PhDs.

We have RARELY had to compete seriously for what we want until graduation.

Hell, man - its a google world. Its not that hard any more....

We rarely have to compete seriously? That's why new grads are inundated with job offers now, I guess.

Talk to the drug rep that comes to your clinic. They probably have the ear of their supervisor who is probably having lunch with a department head of marketing, finance and research tomorrow.

Drug companies want wither DVM/PhDs, DVM/DACVPs, or preferably DVM/PhD/DACVPs, and those jobs are also few and far between, as per ACVP job listing and the multiple drug companies I have approached.


it is not as easy as you are making it out to be.

notaperfectvet, the pathology job market (VET2008 is a vet pathologist) right now is extremely small unless you also have a PhD or at least a postdoc under your belt in addition to residency and board certification. I should know, I am halfway through my residency and have been monitoring the job market ever since I started. We're not talking about general practice here.

Don't let the fear of not having what society tells you you should have (like money and a job) - from stopping you doing something you might enjoy (like learning veterinary science and and understanding the human-animal bond)

I don't even know how to respond to this statement. Don't worry about not having money and finding a job? That's absurd. That's like sending your kid to college for Underwater Basket Weaving because they enjoy it, and telling them not to worry about undergraduate loans or finding a job. Jobs and money should be VERY important considerations no matter what career path you take. Simply enjoying something is not enough. Hell, I might enjoy Renaissance Literature, but I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars to get a degree in it. That type of philosophy s detrimental, and a huge reason that pre-vets used tobe so terribly uninformed about the debt that this profession entails. Thankfully, things are changing and people are becoming more educated.

 

[Saffine]

I don't even know how to respond to this statement. Don't worry about not having money and finding a job? That's absurd. That's like sending your kid to college for Underwater Basket Weaving because they enjoy it, and telling them not to worry about undergraduate loans or finding a job. Jobs and money should be VERY important considerations no matter what career path you take. Simply enjoying something is not enough. Hell, I might enjoy Renaissance Literature, but I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars to get a degree in it. That type of philosophy s detrimental, and a huge reason that pre-vets used tobe so terribly uninformed about the debt that this profession entails. Thankfully, things are changing and people are becoming more educated.

Totally agree with this!
Here's another quote on the same line from Dr Carnevale from Georgetown University:
“People keep telling kids to study what they love — but some loves are worth more than others ... when people talk about college, there are all these high-minded ideas about it making people better citizens and participating fully in the life of their times. All that’s true, but go talk to the unemployed about that.”

Plus good profitable clinics and well paid staff = better equipment, better CE and better animal care.

 

[VET 2008]

Vet2008, how are you looking? In any field most openings aren't advertised and require a lot of networking. I know of at least 6 local FT associate positions open in my local area (which is vet heavy) that aren't advertised anywhere. I learned about them through my network; things like 'Dr. J over at Happy Dogs-R-Us is considering looking for an associate because he can't get to all the work coming in his door, do you know of anyone that would fit his practice?' The successful folks for these positions are good at networking but also very good at sharing what they bring to the practice in terms of business. IE 'Dr. J hired Dr C because she is really well connected with the local breeders and is excited about providing therio services, so she already has a client list of at least 20 people that will be wanting those services regularly. he's really excited for the oppurtunity to expand the business in that direction, and she is looking forward to learning skills in behavior work.'

I think you do bring up some good points.

I am contacting people I know, but they don't know of options. Many of them are not responsible for hiring and those who are can't hire anyone. A problem I have is that most of my contacts are not in general practice and I have only applied to GP positions that are listed so they are likely getting tons of applicants (based on other things I have read and the speed at which they get filled).

Well, I have cold contacted 15 specialty practices without any luck. I've even offered my services part-time. Even requested working as a GP or ER vet with my services on the side. That did not result in any interest.

I haven't sent any cold applications to GP practices though and your post makes me think this might be a good next step.

 

[VET 2008]

OK - firstly - stop looking in all the usual places. Start looking in the department of health. Human health. Search through the private research labs doing animal studies and the think tanks in zoonotic disease or bioterrorism. Start Looking in the fisheries department and do a google search and locate companies that are in the field your interested in. Check out their profiles and search their sites for recruitment. If you dont want to do the leg work, contact a recruitment agency that works in the field of science, think tanks and development. It's not easy (your in left field now and the jobs wont be advertised for vets, most of them go to scientists because they don't realise a vet is probably better suited to the role)

I dont think we realise how privileged we are doing the vet degree. We have RARELY had to compete seriously for what we want until graduation. Its a CUT THROAT world out there for people in the middle rungs and if you want to step out of the "usual path" then be prepare to fight for what you want, and do the research to get it. It might mean your first role is not "veterinary" but with your talent, intellect and broad training you'll move through the ranks at lightening speed.

Hell, man - its a google world. Its not that hard any more....
Tap into your contacts - who taught the 3 aquatic health lectures you had at uni. They will be connected up to the eyeballs and freaked beyond belief that someone is interested in their field. Talk to the drug rep that comes to your clinic. They probably have the ear of their supervisor who is probably having lunch with a department head of marketing, finance and research tomorrow.

I am not going to search the classifieds for you - sorry - if you want the work - you can find it...Unless you want to pay me a recruitment fee like the companies get of 15% 1st year salary

We didn't have any aquatic health lectures. Not even in elective classes.

I have search the USDA, APHIS, FDA, CDC, NIH (will apply for post-docs there) and have looked for lab animal positions without luck. The only place in that arena that has positions available is FSIS (and yes, I know pathologist who are now working at FSIS rather than doing pathology). I did work two summers at two of the above agencies. I have contacted one of the contacts without luck. I will contact the other one as well. I also worked one summer at a pharmaceutical company but they are not hiring either and if they were, they want someone with a PhD and more tox path experience).

I left research for vet med. I am searching post-doc and research associate positions now and am lucky that I do have my previous career to fall back on. If you were a vet without research, I don't think you can get a post-doc position based off the qualifications (at least 1 first author paper). I will probably end up doing this in some random lab to buy time but it is disappointing to have gone through 8 years of training to end up in the same place I was in before I went to vet school. I've contacted strong vet med research labs to see if they have post-doc positions but they don't. I have been referred to other labs without luck. I may be able to work something out with one guy but I don't know if it will work out.

It is unfortunate that my MS adviser left because I picked that lab specifically so I could stay and do a PhD there if I needed and he was TOTALLY fine with that. But he is a human pathologist that got lured away by a $650,000 offer in industry.

Closing thoughts... I still don't believe you. I am sorry.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Notaperfectvet is not in touch with reality. They probably work for the AVMA, the American Asociation of Veterinary Colleges or a veterinary college. Everything WTF says about research was what I encountered in the late 1990s when trying to move out of clinical work. So many of our leadership think that veterinarians should be the leaders in so many different fields because of the superiority of the veterinary education. If it was that superior, then we would all be making $100, 000 minimum with full employment and rising salaries. The reality of the marketplace for veterinarians is so different even from two to three decades ago when many of our "leaders" in the AVMA and veterinary academia were in school. We need a good coup or an Occupy the AVMA movement this summer when the class of 2012 graduates. Our leaders need to face up to the reality that they have screwed up very bad.

 

[lailanni]

I spent a month at a large university with lab animal veterinarians. I spoke to them at length about job availability. The general feedback I got wasn't one of abundant jobs. Many of the institutions that have lab animal vets are in publicly funded schools. All schools are having severe budget cuts and hiring freezes. The doctors and staff there have had a pay freeze for a while. They are not allowed to hire anyone new. They are worried about their benefits being trimmed down (and they actively are being diminished). Perhaps the private sector has more jobs available, but it didn't seem like boomtown. There was ONE aquatic vet who ran the university's programs and worked with the city's aquarium. They weren't looking to hire another. I will be spending 2 weeks at a fish rotation and I'll be interested to see what their outlook on their sector's job market is.

 

[MonkeyResrcher]

So its been a year since this post - but i share many of the concerns listed. While I have been accepted for Vet school in Edinburgh and I'd love to move to Scotland - I am debating if the almost 300,000 principal debt and lifestyle I would have to lead to pay back that debt is worth the cost.

I love animal behavior and two years ago when I was deciding between pursuing a Ph.D in biological anthropology or neuroscience and animal behavior versus going for a veterinary degree - I choose vet because i thought it would be more stable and have more job opportunities.

Now after I have almost completed my pre-reqs and am accepted into a school, the debt load is weighing heavy - how will i be able to have a family and see my children? can i make ends meet with that debt, with rent, insurance, utilities? How will deciding to go to vet school affect the next few decades of my life is a real concern.

I want to have time outside work, be able to take my family on vacation and balance life. I don't care about having a big house, etc but making ends meet with that debt load makes money a huge concern.

On the other hand - with a Ph D many people say its pointless and impossible to find a job, but at least i shouldn't have tremendous debt.

Seems like no matter the choice - there is no jobs and I can't win. I just don't know what path to take

 

[justavet]

From the data I've looked at- all the degrees granted by US programs for the past 20 yrs- you should double down and go for a PhD/DVM combined degree. You're out less total time than getting the two separately, you're gonne need at least both degrees for the fields you're talking about, and many of those students get a stipend and tuition waiver so you graduate with less total debt than a DVM alone.

Just a thought.

 

[Saffine]

From the data I've looked at- all the degrees granted by US programs for the past 20 yrs- you should double down and go for a PhD/DVM combined degree. You're out less total time than getting the two separately, you're gonne need at least both degrees for the fields you're talking about, and many of those students get a stipend and tuition waiver so you graduate with less total debt than a DVM alone.

Just a thought.

I would be interested to know how many PhD/DVM students ditch the PhD part half way through and just finish with a DVM. Many straight PhD students quit halfway through do to the workload and career prospects.

 

[justavet]

Sorry- no stats on retention rate at that level. If you are interested in a specific school you might be able to get program specific data directly from the school.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I would be interested to know how many PhD/DVM students ditch the PhD part half way through and just finish with a DVM. Many straight PhD students quit halfway through do to the workload and career prospects.

I think a huge difference between a combined program and a straight PhD is that combined programs work very hard to get you finished with the PhD in a timely manner so that you can move onto your clinical years. Regular PhD's on the other hand can seem like indefinite indentured servitude and can easily take twice as long to get that PhD (which is what can be super frustrating). And the fact that your tuition is being held ransom I think is a huge motivator to finishing a combined program...

 

[Saffine]

OK - firstly - stop looking in all the usual places. Start looking in the department of health. Human health. Search through the private research labs doing animal studies and the think tanks in zoonotic disease or bioterrorism.

Why would you do a DVM/PhD to get into one health/pharmaceuticals/academia.

Wouldn't you have much better career options in this domain by doing an MD?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

A great professor once told me: Vet School is a great 1st or 2nd degree. But you can always do a 3rd or 4th too

I had forgotten this gem

Wonder how much more debt we can go into with these 2nd, 3rd degrees, 4th degrees

A DVM shouldn't have to be a degree that you have to get 2+ more degrees afterwards to get a respectable job in a non-GP area. And this is coming from someone who is currently trapped in that system.

 

[gfa240]

Hello all! I am a first year vet student, in my second semester, and I'm having second thoughts about this path I'm on. It's a whole range of issues, but a big part of it is financial. I'm probably going to be over $140,000 in debt when I get out, and I hear it's getting harder and harder to find a job (eg. http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=18590). I did some cursory job searches on indeed.com for veterinary positions in New York, NY and found very little, too; if I were out looking for a job right now it would probably be extremely difficult, and it feels like it'll only get worse when I graduate in 2015 - more and more new vets

Is it worth it to keep going? Has anyone else had second thoughts? Does anyone know anyone who dropped out, and what they're doing? Is it possible to go to dental school after dropping out of veterinary school? Thanks so much for any help.

I hear you! I am in the same boat, except that I have been accepted to the program but not started yet. I am also changing to become a vet from another professional career, so I have a bit more experience with the real world than the average 20smth year old student. This is a very weird profession. You end up working/studying harder than a medical student or doctor, but the pay off is so small compared to other medical professions. All the other people who posted here brought up very good points. I would say if your reasons for dropping out are strictly the work load of vet school, I
'd you can handle it. Remember that many people have done it so its doable. You would not get accepted into the program if the committee didn't think you could handle it. Something in your background indicated that you can, so hang in there. Other medical programs will have similar curriculum anyway. However, if there are other reason, most important of which are financial (and for me, is also the emotional stress of neglected pets and euthanasia) , then I would say do a bit more soul searching. Remember that there are many issues that go in to the real life of being a vet. It is a noble profession but its also very very tough and emotionally draining. Its not for everyone. Its good that you think about these issues now and before you are $150k+ in debt. I feel that so many vet students either don't want to think about these things or haven't given it serious thoughts. Keep us posted. Best of luck to you!

 

[sgv]

I don't know what I would do if I left, though; I was thinking about human dentistry, as it was one of my interests in undergrad but veterinary medicine interested me more at the time.

We have our own share of bad prospects in dentistry. There are too many private schools opening leading to saturation, decent jobs are scarce in metropolitan areas, recent trends shift the service of dentistry to midlevel providers and dental chains (in some states) and group practice. Depending on your competitiveness, you may be stuck at a private school where debt totaling $400,000 at graduation is not uncommon. Unlike animals, people can talk and if you've ever been to the dentist, you would know that people generally don't like being there. People will have the nerve to look at you straight in the eye and tell you that they hate you. Some people will be unappreciative and there will be people who you just cannot please no matter what you do and you will have to send them away. Work can be demanding on your back and neck without proper ergonomics.

On the plus side, if luck is on your side, you will graduate from a state school, borrow only $150,000, make at least $120,000/year right after graduation, pay off debt in 5-10 years, borrow more money to buy a practice, and net $200,000/year at age 34 working five days a week or less. I and many others would love to have only $140,000 in debt at graduation.

I don't know how bad your life is as a vet student but I'm in class from 8-5 almost everyday and study all afternoon and weekend. Depending on my competency in the lab, I will be practicing my hand skills for hours after my last lecture of the day. Not everyone in my class puts in this much effort but this lifestyle is typical of those who intend on specializing. There will be no such thing as a summer "break" for me because I will be studying for multiple boards that my GP friends do not have to study for."Breaks" will also be spent on externships and research. This is the life of a dental student, who intends on specializing, for four years. If you just want to be a GP after dental school, life is much more breezy. I don't know how competitive life is after vet school but after dental school, employers will care for only your production speed, chairside manner, practice philosophy, and how much less they can pay you. Ultimately, the goal is self employment so class rank and GPA will almost never be brought up. I also don't think life is guaranteed to be greener in medical school. When I go to class in the morning, I walk past a medical student studying in one of the lounges. When I get back from classes at 5, he's still there studying. When I go into the lounge to study in the late afternoon, he's still there...

 

[Beetlejay]

Hello! This is my first post here just thought I would chime in as a grad who struggled through vet school. After my second year, I wanted to give up. I was way too hard on myself and didn't have time for anything but studying. I didn't prioritize my own interest and hobbies that would have kept me sane. My biggest advice for vet students is to take time for yourself so you don't burn out in school. Do what you love whether it is going to the gym, visiting family or just watching tv! I forgot about myself while in school, and that set me up for disaster after graduation.

After graduation I did an internship, and although I enjoyed it, I was burnt out from school. I found myself bitter towards my childhood friends who were working jobs that paid 3x more with half the education. I didn't enjoy the medicine itself due to this (and the 90 hr work weeks) and didn't get as much out of my internship as I could have.

Now I have a good job, with a decent salary. I think of it completely differently now. It is a job, and just that. It's not that I'm not appreciative or thankful for my job, I am. I love the patients and the clients, just not the job itself. it's just that with 75% of my take home pay going to my loan to pay it down, I am unable to afford a car, save for a house, have cable, let alone start a family. I am in my 30s now, deciding if I should go back to school for something completely different. I still feel isolated and sad about my career decisions in life. If I could do it again, I wouldn't, and I wish I followed my gut instinct while in school and jumped ship. It is scary to make that change, but FWIW, I wish I did. Sorry for the negativity, but I just wanted to give my experience, in hopes that it will help someone who is struggling.

 

[illumoonate]

Now I have a good job, with a decent salary. I think of it completely differently now. It is a job, and just that. It's not that I'm not appreciative or thankful for my job, I am. I love the patients and the clients, just not the job itself. it's just that with 75% of my take home pay going to my loan to pay it down, I am unable to afford a car, save for a house, have cable, let alone start a family. I am in my 30s now, deciding if I should go back to school for something completely different. I still feel isolated and sad about my career decisions in life. If I could do it again, I wouldn't, and I wish I followed my gut instinct while in school and jumped ship. It is scary to make that change, but FWIW, I wish I did. Sorry for the negativity, but I just wanted to give my experience, in hopes that it will help someone who is struggling.

Thanks for sharing, Beetlejay. I'm in my sophomore year of pre-veterinary studies and I think the reality of what four more years of school after undergrad and a $200K debt-load will actually mean. I've just been questioning whether getting out now and switching to another major would be something I'd regret. But honestly, after reading your post, it helped me feel a little better. The debt crisis is truly out of control. I don't understand how the leaders of the field expect students to continue to make these financial sacrifices. It's unreal.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Thanks for sharing, Beetlejay. I'm in my sophomore year of pre-veterinary studies and I think the reality of what four more years of school after undergrad and a $200K debt-load will actually mean. I've just been questioning whether getting out now and switching to another major would be something I'd regret. But honestly, after reading your post, it helped me feel a little better. The debt crisis is truly out of control. I don't understand how the leaders of the field expect students to continue to make these financial sacrifices. It's unreal.

The "leaders of the field" have no control over the cost of a veterinary education.......about all that could be controlled from the profession would be the accreditation of new schools. FWIW, I think they should do that, but they can't control what a school will choose to charge. I could turn your question around and ask why students continue to choose to make those financial sacrifices? If there weren't tens of thousands of students willing to harness themselves to decades of debt, the situation would be totally different. (That's not the only way to make a change, but it's one that shouldn't be ignored......schools are looking to make a profit from the seemingly unending well of incoming students with loans).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The "leaders of the field" have no control over the cost of a veterinary education.......about all that could be controlled from the profession would be the accreditation of new schools. FWIW, I think they should do that, but they can't control what a school will choose to charge. I could turn your question around and ask why students continue to choose to make those financial sacrifices? If there weren't tens of thousands of students willing to harness themselves to decades of debt, the situation would be totally different. (That's not the only way to make a change, but it's one that shouldn't be ignored......schools are looking to make a profit from the seemingly unending well of incoming students with loans).

To be fair, there is another perspective to it as well.

For example state funding for higher education has gotten worse and worse over the years and schools are struggling to make up the difference. Getting $$ from donors or private foundations only goes so far.

Now, compound that problem with the fact that vet schools are under constant pressure to update their facilities (especially medical) to be as modern as possible in order to attract high quality students and give them the most modern, up-to-date education as the field continues to expand. Schools that have outdated equipment and old facilities are going to get fewer and most likely less qualified applicants, because everyone wants to go to the fancy high-tech schools. Teaching hospitals themselves usually barely break even most of the time.

So your main sources of financial support are either dwindling or unreliable, and you're getting slammed left and right because you need money to pay your new faculty, your updated equipment, etc - what's left? Raise tuition or increase class sizes. Or both. It's NOT the"right" answer, but it's unfortunately the most logical one for a lot of places.

It isn't really about money grubbing - or at least, not the majority of it. A lot of it is because schools have had their legs slowly sanded out from under them by progressive withdrawal of state funding for public education.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

To be fair, there is another perspective to it as well.

For example state funding for higher education has gotten worse and worse over the years and schools are struggling to make up the difference. Getting $$ from donors or private foundations only goes so far.

Now, compound that problem with the fact that vet schools are under constant pressure to update their facilities (especially medical) to be as modern as possible in order to attract high quality students and give them the most modern, up-to-date education as the field continues to expand. Schools that have outdated equipment and old facilities are going to get fewer and most likely less qualified applicants, because everyone wants to go to the fancy high-tech schools. Teaching hospitals themselves usually barely break even most of the time.

So your main sources of financial support are either dwindling or unreliable, and you're getting slammed left and right because you need money to pay your new faculty, your updated equipment, etc - what's left? Raise tuition or increase class sizes. Or both. It's NOT the"right" answer, but it's unfortunately the most logical one for a lot of places.

It isn't really about money grubbing - or at least, not the majority of it. A lot of it is because schools have had their legs slowly sanded out from under them by progressive withdrawal of state funding for public education.

I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't have any effect on the increasing number of vet schools or the number of vet schools wanting to become AVMA accredited. I think the increasing numbers of schools is money grubbing. And, yes, it is expensive to run an up-to-date vet school and some of their government money is disappearing, but if there weren't a seeming unending source of more money, I suspect a few would see the dwindling money writing its message on the wall and create alternative routes (merging?) or shut down. But since there really isn't a dwindling amount of money (what isn't being granted from one level of government is available in loans from another level of government), they're under no pressure to do anything and can charge what they choose, knowing they're never going to price themselves out of the market. And by graduating increasing numbers of students, it's quite clear they have no interest in the financial health of it's graduates or the profession. I'm torn as to whether or not they should care about that.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't have any effect on the increasing number of vet schools or the number of vet schools wanting to become AVMA accredited. I think the increasing numbers of schools is money grubbing. And, yes, it is expensive to run an up-to-date vet school and some of their government money is disappearing, but if there weren't a seeming unending source of more money, I suspect a few would see the dwindling money writing its message on the wall and create alternative routes (merging?) or shut down. But since there really isn't a dwindling amount of money (what isn't being granted from one level of government is available in loans from another level of government), they're under no pressure to do anything and can charge what they choose, knowing they're never going to price themselves out of the market. And by graduating increasing numbers of students, it's quite clear they have no interest in the financial health of it's graduates or the profession. I'm torn as to whether or not they should care about that.

Oh, I absolutely agree there needs to be accountability, and I feel similarly torn. Just trying to flesh out the problem a bit more.

 

[LetItSnow]

I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't have any effect on the increasing number of vet schools or the number of vet schools wanting to become AVMA accredited. I think the increasing numbers of schools is money grubbing.

Especially given that most of the recent schools are for-profit.