Scribe-Doctor Relationship

[MIAM2567]

While I’m still at the hospital, after work I’ll tell him “I am not interested”. No sorry or thanks.
I don’t think he would try to physically assault me considering I’ve worked with him for a long time and he doesn’t seem crazy, just horny.
Also, quitting is not an option. There are very few scribe jobs around and I am working my way through school. That’s why I’m trying to be as peaceful as possible about this.

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[ODea]

Just say you're hung up on your ex soon and not ready to get back into dating. That's all you have to say so he doesn't take it personal

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Definitely not getting a LOR from him.
I feel like what I said was straightforward. I think I might try the “talking to my ex” thing.
Also, I really don’t want to be the person who talks to HR. I’ve seen other people do it and they end up quitting. It's really hard to punish ED physicians around here because there is a shortage of them.
There are about 15 providers. We make our schedule 2 months in advance and I just happen to work mostly with him due to time constraints in my schedule.
Btw he sent me another message saying "we can chat tomorrow after work".
Honestly, now that this is going on, I don't know how I haven't seen this from the beginning. When he approaches me he always puts his hand on the small of my back. When my hair gets in my face he will push it behind my ear. He's talked about his sexual endeavors to me before. Meanwhile, I've just been super naive.
I don't know what to do. I work with him for the next couple months and it is nearly impossible to switch that many shifts in such a short period of time.

At this point, you have been very clear in your message and he is still persisting. This is now harassment and needs to be brought to a heel immediately. Tell him his messages are making you uncomfortable and that your interactions should be strictly professional. And keep copies of everything he sends you.


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[deleted804295]

@MIAM2567

I'm really sorry about this sweety. That doctor breached his professional-personal life bounds and he did it with little regard for your future. At best he's an as--ole doctor.

I would recommend you contact the company you work for and ask to switch to a different doctor you can scribe for. You're really gambling your stakes right now with him. If he's scummy enough to ask you out knowing little about you and while you're still scribing there's a large chance he would give you an unfair LOR simply due to a rejection.

Had he knew more about you and waited until you left your position it would be one thing however he did this not knowing much about about personal life and likely knowing you were a pre-med. As---les exist everywhere and unfortunately doctors are no exception.

 

[deleted804295]

I see what you are both saying, however, I don't think this is HR worthy. I guess I can look elsewhere for a LOR, but it's just a bummer I have been spending all this time for no LOR. I guess it's too risky to have him write my LOR when he could totally write something inappropriate.
So what do I say to him now? Should I just say "I don't need a LOR anymore, thanks anyways"?

Sweetheart it might be a bummer that these hours were spent for you however look at it this way- you're saving yourself trouble with 3 years of hard work in undergrad wasted just to receive a LOR that undermines your work. Do Not Trust Him.

Also surely you gained more from your position other than wanting to get a LOR?

 

[deleted804295]

Did they specifically say date? If so that’s pretty ballsy for the workplace. Asking someone to grab a bite to eat or see a movie (especially if you were talking about that stuff during the shift) is pretty common stuff (especially if you work in an ER, dunno if you do). I went out with some scribes when I was single in residency to like movies and meals and crap. Was just to hang out, not to get in their pants. You don’t need to lie just say no thanks and move on.

I believe asking to go out for drinks qualifies as a date. It's also disgusting because he's asking someone nearly a decade younger than him to put themselves in an even more vulnerable position.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

It doesn't matter how the attending reacted to it, it matters that he asked OP out in the first place. Age difference is not the only thing OP has an issue with, it's that this guy is OP's superior and in a position to affect their future prospects in the medical field. He's not OP's coworker. He is their boss, and a potential LOR writer. His response to OP asking to discuss their LOR was asking them on a date. You don't see how simply asking that question, regardless of OP's response and the attending's reaction to that response, is harassment? Just asking out somebody you supervise or somebody whose future in a job/field you can directly affect puts them in a difficult position of not feeling like they can say no. It's not appropriate, period.

Oh I see. I retract my statement in light of that input.

 

[DJ Khaled's Pet Tiger]

There was the problem. The first time it happened you should have just said no very clearly instead of coming up with excuses. It's difficult to do, but if he would persist after that, it would be harassment. It doesn't sound like you were clear with him and he thinks he still has a chance. Yes it is not fair of him to ask, and I know it's awkward for you because of the power difference, it is not your fault, but now you have to deal with it. I suggest you now cut your losses and say you got back together with your ex as others suggested. But in the future, a very clear and immediate no will go a long way. Speaking from personal experience.



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Don't victim blame. There's no excellent way to reject someone who has the power to hurt you either professionally or personally. Can't say I blame her for at first feeling threatened and choosing to lie. This is why it's unethical behavior - precisely because doing so puts the vulnerable person in such an awful situation.

Sorry this happened to you as well. You shouldn't blame yourself for some loser pulling this. You're right that a clear "no" would have made this a more cut and dry HR case, but the blame for this rests entirely on the physician's shoulders.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

After seeing the posts on this, I will never ask out a co-worker. Unless I have equal standing with them in terms of position and power so they don't feel leveraged to say yes.

 

[•Syzygy•]

After seeing the posts on this, I will never ask out a co-worker. Unless I have equal standing with them in terms of position and power so they don't feel leveraged to say yes.

glad you understand now. i thought this would be an obvious boundary thing to people, but it is very clearly not. this isn't just a co-worker situation ( which would be fine, though that still can make for some awkward situations), this is her superior. this is why sexual harassment occurs so often in Hollywood. higher ups abuse their power / connections and prey on women who want to further their career. it puts these girls in between a rock and a hard place. its not a simple situation and its really unfortunate that they have to deal with it everywhere. some of the stories my SO tells me about shock me

 

[infectiousdisease101]

glad you understand now. i thought this would be an obvious boundary thing to people, but it is very clearly not. this isn't just a co-worker situation ( which would be fine, though that still can make for some awkward situations), this is her superior. this is why sexual harassment occurs so often in Hollywood. higher ups abuse their power / connections and prey on women who want to further their career. it puts these girls in between a rock and a hard place. its not a simple situation and its really unfortunate that they have to deal with it everywhere. some of the stories my SO tells me about shock me

Some things are not so obvious to others as it is to some.

I still say asking out a co worker of equal power is risky, so I think it's best to keep things professional. Besides, working in the same department as your SO, makes it hard to be professional because you see them so much.

 

[Tenk]

I believe asking to go out for drinks qualifies as a date. It's also disgusting because he's asking someone nearly a decade younger than him to put themselves in an even more vulnerable position.

I went back and read the posts. Yeah that’s creepy af and pretty unprofessional.

 

[DJ Khaled's Pet Tiger]

I disagree. You have to have an appropriate response to a bad situation, even if you are the victim. You are an adult, not a child. It is very difficult to say no, but if you drag things on with excuses instead of gathering the courage and clearly stating your position, the consequences may not be what you want. Sure, if that person does not respond to a clear no (as this one didn't), it is beyond you and you have done all you could. It doesn't seem as if she is his charge or responsibility, as a student would be. I have seen doctors ask their office secretaries out all the time, they are also theoretically in a "vulnerable" position yet it is accepted (some of these docs are now married to these women). I say this as a female in surgery who has experienced these situations many times, including as a student. If the person in power doesn't have the introspection or the aptitude to understand why they are making you uncomfortable, it is your responsibility to make things clear. This "victim blaming" stuff takes women's power out of the equation, assuming us to be helpless victims who are slaves to a bad situation. So they throw their hands up and go the "woe is me" route. We are anything but powerless. These days, an accusation can destroy someone's career, and there are plenty of other letter writers out there. I was aggressively hit on by an attending, who happened to be the head of my surgery rotation. I told him to stop, even knowing it may jeopardize my score and possibly keep me from matching. Lo and behold, I found other people to mentor me and now I'm a surgeon. So please don't be patronizing and say this woman should just curl up and lay all blame for how this situation turned out on the crappy dude. Yes, he shouldn't have done it. But she needs to deal with it if he was too dense to understand her "excuses." Women are not helpless damsels and can deal with these situations directly and forcefully.


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Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion. I just don't tend to blame people for someone else's sins.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion. I just don't tend to blame people for someone else's sins.

Neither do I. But I recognize that any situation that involves two adults may need action from both people to correct it, regardless of who is more "responsible" or "to blame."


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[deleted804295]

I was aggressively hit on by an attending, who happened to be the head of my surgery rotation. I told him to stop, even knowing it may jeopardize my score and possibly keep me from matching. Lo and behold, I found other people to mentor me and now I'm a surgeon. So please don't be patronizing and say this woman should just curl up and lay all blame for how this situation turned out on the crappy dude.
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There's the problem. A woman should not ever have to be in the situation where she may have to jeopardize her livelihood because of one man's hurt ego. That doesn't mean a woman shouldn't protect herself if the occasion does arise but men need to be taught better so that women aren't put in these situations to begin with.

 

[MIAM2567]

Update: I worked with the physician today, and he initially was a lot more touchy-feely than usual.
Then he pulled me to the side s/p our shift, and he said he would love to take me out to dinner, and I responded with " No, I am not interested."
He then proceeded with "come on, I'll pay. I promise I'll be a gentleman", and I said "I am being dead serious with you. If you continue to ask me out, I am going to have to notify HR".
He looked a little intimidated after that, and he said "whatever."

I think I am good for now. This may have freaked him out enough to leave me alone.
The only thing I am worried about is the repercussions:/
Thanks for all the input everyone! I think this thread gave me a dose of courage to stand up for myself regardless of the consequences.

 

[AVSS HDS CSM]

Update: I worked with the physician today, and he initially was a lot more touchy-feely than usual.
Then he pulled me to the side s/p our shift, and he said he would love to take me out to dinner, and I responded with " No, I am not interested."
He then proceeded with "come on, I'll pay. I promise I'll be a gentleman", and I said "I am being dead serious with you. If you continue to ask me out, I am going to have to notify HR".
He looked a little intimidated after that, and he said "whatever."

I think I am good for now. This may have freaked him out enough to leave me alone.
The only thing I am worried about is the repercussions:/
Thanks for all the input everyone! I think this thread gave me a dose of courage to stand up for myself regardless of the consequences.

Good for you, I have been reading/lurking this thread since you posted, and was feeling rather horrified and mad about the situation and behavior of the doc, so I'm very happy to hear that you've been able to head this off before it took too much of a bad turn! That was courageous! You will surely find someone else to write you an LOR, it can be anyone who knows you. Good luck!

 

[MIAM2567]

@OrthoTraumaMD
I agree with the sentiment of standing up for yourself and being stern about where you stand on relationships. However, I was fairly clear with him from the moment he sent that text.
Regardless of my actions (or anyone's), we need to stop making excuses for men. The idea of "boys will be boys" is not only lowering expectations, but also an insult to all the great men out there. Yes, men can control themselves and we should never accept harassment from anyone. It should be expected that everyone treats their coworkers with respect and act with dignity, including men.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

This is what you should do moving forward to guard yourself against any future repercussions.

*Don't delete any of the texts from him. Save everything.
*Every time after a shift that he does/say anything inappropriate, document it by writing it down and dating it. This will be your record that you will use to send to HR should he continue his misbehaving.
*Find someone you trust, family or friend, and tell them. Getting support from someone close to you right now is important, moreso than from a public forum like SDN.
*Stay strong!!!

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Update: I worked with the physician today, and he initially was a lot more touchy-feely than usual.
Then he pulled me to the side s/p our shift, and he said he would love to take me out to dinner, and I responded with " No, I am not interested."
He then proceeded with "come on, I'll pay. I promise I'll be a gentleman", and I said "I am being dead serious with you. If you continue to ask me out, I am going to have to notify HR".
He looked a little intimidated after that, and he said "whatever."

I think I am good for now. This may have freaked him out enough to leave me alone.
The only thing I am worried about is the repercussions:/
Thanks for all the input everyone! I think this thread gave me a dose of courage to stand up for myself regardless of the consequences.

this is great! well done

 

[863168]

@MIAM2567 Run CYOA and notify your chief scribe and HR about the incident right now and the history of incidences. Have specific dates of interaction that you can recall in your memory and make sure there is some paper trail you can leave behind as an email. Anyone who thinks she can skate around notifying them at this point hasn't worked in HR or dealt with these situations. The physician already likely assumes you went to HR or filed a claim and will be told by their colleagues to submit their own claim to HR as a form of protection. Note, you can notify HR that you are having personnel problems without pushing it so far as a sexual harassment claim, but you can open a case just in order for you to have a working anecdote to put a documented narrative history on file.

 

[Piglet2020]

This is what you should do moving forward to guard yourself against any future repercussions.

*Don't delete any of the texts from him. Save everything.
*Every time after a shift that he does/say anything inappropriate, document it by writing it down and dating it. This will be your record that you will use to send to HR should he continue his misbehaving.
*Find someone you trust, family or friend, and tell them. Getting support from someone close to you right now is important, moreso than from a public forum like SDN.
*Stay strong!!!

I would like to add:
*Make sure that your writing has an automated time-stamp, should you need to report these incidents in the future

Op, I’m sorry you had to experience this. Stay strong and I hope you can confide in someone you trust!

 

[infectiousdisease101]

Just theoretical, but what happens if a lower ranked worker asks out a higher ranked worker, IE a nurse asking out a physician. There'd be no leverage there, right?

 

[SoppyElk]

Just theoretical, but what happens if a lower ranked worker asks out a higher ranked worker, IE a nurse asking out a physician. There'd be no leverage there, right?

I've heard of instances where a MS3 asked out an attending/resident at the end of a rotation. Personally, I'd never want to date someone I work with. It just adds to extra stress and headaches that I wouldn't want. There are plenty of fish in the sea without having to deal with all that extra BS

 

[LebronManning]

It's ridiculous that this became such a big issue. Had you simply been honest and said "No," he would either respect it or not. Since it seems like this Physician lacks respect, he would not have respected your denial and then you have a clear HR case. I don't understand what the fear was in this case. This is not SVU or Grey's Anatomy where Physicians or people of power get to do whatever they want. An HR investigation would be conducted and the truth would result in action. Not against you in any case because you are the victim. Instead, now you've given him the ammo to do exactly what you feared. He may badmouth you to all the other physicians and now he has a chance to defend himself before you can even accuse him. You're judgement will now be questioned as to why this went on so long without a report to HR. What's to prevent him from lying and saying that you initiated all of this in person and the text messages were not representative of your in person contact?

Hopefully this issue may be somewhat resolved. However, you opened yourself up to all that by not being honest up front and being skeptical of the systems in place to not allow this to happen. This is why everyone is trained to go straight to HR when they feel any sort of personal problem with someone in the workplace, which is what you've been feeling since he asked you out.

 

[tekkenman11]

I believe asking to go out for drinks qualifies as a date. It's also disgusting because he's asking someone nearly a decade younger than him to put themselves in an even more vulnerable position.

My parents are 8 years apart. Should they divorce?

I’m hoping you meant that he should have known a full fledged physician asking a medical scribe who works for him was crossing the line.

 

[Mednight]

Say that you’re dating someone right now and it has the potential to turn into something serious and you don’t want to ruin that relationship or say that you’re a lesbian.


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[SterlingMaloryArcher]

I have to be honest. Please don't get a LOR from this Dr!

First, LORs from doctors you work with per Adcoms here (@Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn ) are overrated and not given much thought by Admissions Committee, unless the school requires it. Say it is a DO school that requires it, contact another Dr. for shadowing.

Second, you have given hints to this Dr. that you are not interested by not taking him up on his offer. He is either intentionally ignoring your hints or clueless. Either way, (1) his behavior is very unprofessional and the power dynamics of the relationship dictates that he should be reported to HR. ((1B) see the sexual harassment stories in the news lately.)

(2) Third, as extreme as this may sound, but get in touch with a lawyer for their advice (not from SDN) because this might get messy!

Lastly, get a LOR from someone else. You can't trust what he will put in it. Even if you gives you the final copy to see, he will be the one to send it in and you cannot control what changes he might make before sending it after you turning him down so many times.

(1) RIDICULOUS! No need to report to HR. Be flattered. Say no if you don't want to. Someone having a harmless interest in you and telling you in the way he did is benign and I don't think there is ANYTHING WHATSOEVER impolite/inappropriate about him giving you a not-even-that-sexually-charged compliment and asking you out for drinks. If he hangs the LOR over your head or asks some more AFTER being told no then that's a different story.

(1B) What TERRIBLE support for your recommendation! Everything that is going on in the news lately is stuff that everyone rolls their eyes at is widely talked about as people making a big deal out of nothing.

(2) You're the kind of person who calls 9-1-1 for a stubbed toe arent you? Give me a break oh my god!

I don’t know if anything the OP has said implies that this person has harassed or otherwise been inappropriate. Sounds like s/he just asked OP out. It doesn’t have to be a catastrophe, does it?

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100% Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!

To quote @Goro "The faint of heart never won fair lady."

(Yes, goro, I see you beg to differ on the HR issue)

@CyrilFiggis What are your thoughts on this hostile work environment situation.

Someone get pam down here with her dolphin puppets

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

This is what you should do moving forward to (1) guard yourself against any future repercussions.

*Don't delete any of the texts from him. Save everything.
*Every time after a shift that he does/say anything inappropriate, document it by writing it down and dating it. This will be your record that you will use to send to HR *should he continue (asking you out which would then be considered) misbehaving*
*Find someone you trust, family or friend, and tell them. Getting support from someone close to you right now is important, moreso than from a public forum like SDN.
*(2) Stay strong!!!

(1) Good advice for documentation *if it continues after you clearly tell him you are not interested.* Telling someone you are not interested is key. "An age difference" is subjective and nobody draws the line at x years age gap is where it's considered inappropriate (unless it's a minor.) Authority may also be a gray area if she is a contracted employee (ScribeAmerica)

It's great to take precautions like this but jumping right to HR doesn't sit well with me. Haven't you ever liked someone but been too afraid to tell them? In a way, wouldn't it be better if everyone was allowed 1 respectful/non-intimidating/civilized "ask you out freebie" w/o chance of repercussions? Chance of rejection sure but being reported to HR is ridiculous for first-time actually asking you out for romantic interest and if you ask me in pretty harmless way.

If it were me, it would build my ego up a little bit more, I would literally word for word text back "Wow I wasn't expecting that! Thank you Dr. _______, but I have a boyfriend and would rather keep our relationship professional. I have liked working with you and I hope things can remain as usual between us."

There is a good chance he will feel embarrassed and consider himself lucky that you cut him some slack. I mean, don't you think he has considered the possibility of rejection and calculated the risks associated with it? I think he would be extremely quick to forget about the whole thing if you express that you are too.

I might not be the popular opinion but this is the real-world way I would roll with the punches and I hope you at least consider what I'm trying to get at here.

(2) Yeah stay strong in this mildly uncomfortable/inconvenient situation. (Sarcasm directed at what I am perceiving as @DV-T 's extreme blowing out of proportion. OP, not saying it's not an issue that warrants some consideration, it is, just not a gigantic transgression against you. Physician might just be dense, as many are.)

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Someone having a harmless interest in you and telling you in the way he did is benign and I don't think there is ANYTHING WHATSOEVER impolite/inappropriate about him giving you a not-even-that-sexually-charged compliment and asking you out for drinks.

Honestly, now that this is going on, I don't know how I haven't seen this from the beginning. When he approaches me he always puts his hand on the small of my back. When my hair gets in my face he will push it behind my ear. He's talked about his sexual endeavors to me before.

Then he messaged back “ who said we’d have a relationship “

You don't seem to understand because either you have never received a HR presentation at work (perhaps you did but didn't learn anything from it) or worse don't want to understand that when unwanted attention occurs, especially in the work place that involves unequal power dynamics, it should not be tolerated period.

The first time the doctor asked OP out, it was benign. He was turned down politely. But then he continued, and was turned down again. Add to that the smiley emoji with the not so subtle sexual hint. AND this was on top of all the unwanted touching. Get a clue man!

(1B) What TERRIBLE support for your recommendation! Everything that is going on in the news lately is stuff that everyone rolls their eyes at is widely talked about as people making a big deal out of nothing.

Ignorant statement here. If everyone rolls their eyes at all the stuff in the news, then you are blissfully ignoring the news that those predators are losing their jobs, being publicly ridiculed, and have active police investigations taking place, and in Bill Cosby's case, being criminally prosecuted.

Haven't you ever liked someone but been too afraid to tell them? In a way, wouldn't it be better if everyone was allowed 1 respectful/non-intimidating/civilized "ask you out freebie" w/o chance of repercussions?

Again you just don't get it. This is not an innocent middle school crush involving an awkward 13 year old boy. This doctor is 30 years old who has talked to OP about his sexual endeavors. He knows the game and hardly seems to be afraid of going after what he wants.

He didn't just ask OP once, get shot down, and quit. He continued to ask her out while continuing to inappropriately touch her at the work place. This is an unacceptable pattern of behavior that the doctor felt he could get away with because of the unequal work dynamic involved.

Lastly, if you still can't see/understand that this doctor's pattern behavior is unwelcomed and inappropriate, then you are living in the wrong century. This is not the 1950s.

 

[MIAM2567]

Posts like @SterlingMaloryArcher 's are why I didn't want to go to HR or tell anyone.
Update: I started switching shifts around with a few of my scribe friends and try to ignore him when possible. It's still a challenge to work with him occasionally, but it has become much better. I'm mainly glad this is all over with.