schools losing accreditation?

[deleted1138023]

I've heard rumors of at least one college potentially in trouble with apmle board scores.

from the CPME outcomes:
" Licensure examination pass rates:The college is expected to demonstrate a licensure examination pass rate for first-time test takers, averaged over the most recent three years, of at least 75 percent on APMLE Part I and 80 percent on both parts of APMLE Part II."

source: https://www.cpme.org/files/CPME/202...crediting_Colleges_of_Podiatric_ Medicine.pdf

Does anyone know what happens when the schools don't meet the above requirement?

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[deleted1138023]

here is a chart for which you can see one school is below the 75% mark. and others are close. so what happens to these schools?

 

[Bored Snorlax]

I was legitimately confused why Cali is still accredited then I realized it's CPME.

Going to be a lot of people with >$300k in debt because these organizations can't enforce their own policy.

 

[deleted1138023]

I was legitimately confused why Cali is still accredited then I realized it's CPME.

Going to be a lot of people with >$300k in debt because these organizations can't enforce their own policy.

it is very sad. there is no accountability in podiatry when everyone in power is buddy-buddy with everyone. I guess a verbal warning was given to the schools with poor performance? Likely nothing more. Would hate to cut off the cash cow for some in academics who couldn’t cut it elsewhere.. and then abfas has to be the “gatekeeper” to protect the public from these students who get pushed through.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

it is very sad. there is no accountability in podiatry when everyone in power is buddy-buddy with everyone. I guess a verbal warning was given to the schools with poor performance? Likely nothing more. Would hate to cut off the cash cow for some in academics who couldn’t cut it elsewhere.. and then abfas has to be the “gatekeeper” to protect the public from these students who get pushed through.

It's absolute BS. A school with 69% part 1 avg 3 year pass rate getting reaccredited is either incompetency or corruption.

Sadly, there will be many students who are going to be in massive debt with no degree if they can't pass boards.

They clearly don't care about students at all if they continue to allow this to happen.

I'm going to keep it simple: need to replace these people before any positive changes can happen in podiatry.

 

[deleted1138023]

It's absolute BS. A school with 69% part 1 avg 3 year pass rate getting reaccredited is either incompetency or corruption.

Sadly, there will be many students who are going to be in massive debt with no degree if they can't pass boards.

They clearly don't care about students at all if they continue to allow this to happen.

I'm going to keep it simple: need to replace these people before any positive changes can happen in podiatry.

It’s not just one school though. 3 schools are below 80% and the rumor is when these numbers are updated even more will be below the 75%. almost half our schools fall below accreditation guidelines according to the cpme…

this is a crisis no one is addressing. And will surely get worse as the schools face recruitment issues and accept anyone.

Will they instead just make these exams easier?

 

[Bored Snorlax]

It’s not just one school though. 3 schools are below 80% and the rumor is when these numbers are updated even more will be below the 75%. almost half our schools fall below accreditation guidelines according to the cpme…

this is a crisis no one is addressing. And will surely get worse as the schools face recruitment issues and accept anyone.

Will they instead just make these exams easier?

They should not make the exams easier. This would make it harder for future podiatric medical students to take the USMLE someday, which would be a major milestone and turning point for podiatry.

I'd like to see schools collaborate to help students succeed and move the profession forward. Organizations like CPME should hold schools accountable when certain standards aren't met.

 

[heybrother]

 

[deleted1138023]

View attachment 368796

Nice

 

[Bored Snorlax]

I don't even think CPME could come up with a logical explanation to justify this.

 

[PatchAdamsFan]

They should not make the exams easier. This would make it harder for future podiatric medical students to take the USMLE someday, which would be a major milestone and turning point for podiatry.

I agree that our board exams should not be made easier, but let's not pretend that our sad exams with their first-order questions even comes close to the USMLE exams. Western had their 'trial' with students taking the CBSE (USMLE precursor) and I'm willing to bet 90% of them failed it. And they probably had a higher chance to pass taking classes with DO students. When half of the matriculating students nationally have awful entrance stats, this is to be expected. NBME will never let pods sit for the USMLE - but if by some miracle it happens I'll be all for it.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

View attachment 368809

I don't even think CPME could come up with a logical explanation to justify this.

This number is pretty bad (69% lol nice) but at least in my year during covid cheating was rampant. We never went back to school for class after covid. I believe this is a reflection of that combined with the poor student candidates they accept.

CSPM's biggest weakness to attracting good students is the bay area COL+high tuition. They accept bad students and take their tuition dollars, and then send them to their private office nail jail for 3+ years. Adding two more schools definitely makes it more tough to fill seats. This year they barely got 20.

I was there for their accreditation visit. It was a 3.5 hour meeting with the CPME and the students. The students were just roasting the school. CPME did nothing.

I hope that one day CSPM will be restored to its former glory, but until then stay the H E double hockey sticks away from this school

 

[Adam Smasher]

I agree that our board exams should not be made easier, but let's not pretend that our sad exams with their first-order questions even comes close to the USMLE exams. Western had their 'trial' with students taking the CBSE (USMLE precursor) and I'm willing to bet 90% of them failed it.

As I recall, USMLE step 1 covers pathology in much greater depth, plus embryology which we don't touch. So to me it's not a question of "can dpm students pass the USMLE?" But rather "why should they try?"

Think about it you have a group of M2s whose career hinges on this test and then some P2s who are taking the test "for the glory of podiatry" and no other reason guess which group is going to do better?

 

[heybrother]

Its weird to be hearing so much about Samuel Merritt. I met one SM student during 4th year. We were at a pimping program. The attending asked about manifestations of Baxter's neuropathy and the student gave an answer that was so weird and soooooo long I honestly didn't know what I was hearing. I just remember thinking "that's not the textbook answer". The attending starred at them for awhile with this puzzled look and then just moved on. Thinking about it now I can't help but think of Billy Madison.

 

[PatchAdamsFan]

As I recall, USMLE step 1 covers pathology in much greater depth, plus embryology which we don't touch. So to me it's not a question of "can dpm students pass the USMLE?" But rather "why should they try?"

Think about it you have a group of M2s whose career hinges on this test and then some P2s who are taking the test "for the glory of podiatry" and no other reason guess which group is going to do better?

I don't disagree, and I'm fairly neutral on the point of pods taking the USMLE. However there are factors in place that are to our benefit. USMLE Step 1, previously the "make it or break it" exam for med students, is now pass-fail. It is not that the exam contains information not covered by pods, but rather the depth as you mentioned is not reached in some schools particularly those without DO students. IMHO, students in the combined schools should have no problem (maybe optimistic) passing the exam provided they have access to the same study materials (UWorld, Pathoma, etc) and time off as med students. It would take some effort to adjust the stand-alone schools curriculum as this would involve firing most of the living fossils currently teaching there. Why take the exam? We already are made to take our exams which "cover" all topics for the sake of parity. But the sticking point for AMA and NBME is that our exams are different and therefore inferior, and hence the conflict continues. Anyway, the merits of taking the USMLE are perhaps not for this thread.

 

[MicroPod]

Most med students start studying for USMLE step 1 from the day they begin medical school. They do bare minimum to pass their school exams and focus mostly on USMLE step 1. I heard step 1 is going pass/fail so this will likely change.

When I was in school (few years ago) they asked for volunteers to take portions of USMLE to which I chose not to volunteer even though I was towards the top of my class. This was mostly because it was at the same time as part 1. I don’t see how they would expect pod students (even the top students) to do well on USMLE when their focus is on their part 1, students are generally not as strong, and we don’t even cover some of the subjects on the test in our curriculum.

Also I think med students would do poorly on the lower extremity anatomy portion of our exam with just the knowledge from the general anatomy courses.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

I don't disagree, and I'm fairly neutral on the point of pods taking the USMLE. However there are factors in place that are to our benefit. USMLE Step 1, previously the "make it or break it" exam for med students, is now pass-fail. It is not that the exam contains information not covered by pods, but rather the depth as you mentioned is not reached in some schools particularly those without DO students. IMHO, students in the combined schools should have no problem (maybe optimistic) passing the exam provided they have access to the same study materials (UWorld, Pathoma, etc) and time off as med students. It would take some effort to adjust the stand-alone schools curriculum as this would involve firing most of the living fossils currently teaching there. Why take the exam? We already are made to take our exams which "cover" all topics for the sake of parity. But the sticking point for AMA and NBME is that our exams are different and therefore inferior, and hence the conflict continues. Anyway, the merits of taking the USMLE are perhaps not for this thread.

If pods are allowed to sit for USMLE and perform well on the exam it could potentially lead to more opportunities and hospital privileges.
The USMLE has more integrated questions, and frankly this is the way a physician should be assessed to provide better outcome for patients.
Sitting for the USMLE is optional for DO students because their COMLEX exam is considered adequate. However, this is not the case for APMLE (yet). The AMPLE pass rate is different among the different pod schools. For example, DMU and AZPOD have mid 90s pass rate (great job!), and I'm confident many students in podiatry can pass USMLE if properly prepared with the right resources and guidance.

Unfortunately, it's going to be a challenge to convince the NBME if some schools are bombing the APMLE, but we should strive to move forward and not take the easy way out by making the exam easier. Organizations like CPME should be monitoring schools who are in danger every year and not every 5-7 years. There is too much at stakes for them to not hold these schools accountable.

 

[podiatryresident]

They should not make the exams easier. This would make it harder for future podiatric medical students to take the USMLE someday, which would be a major milestone and turning point for podiatry.

I agreed! I'm IMG and I took and passed both usmle and apmle (1st attempt both). Be honest, current APMLEs now are much easier than USMLE. Questions of usmle are way longer and requires critical thinking.

 

[DYK343]

This year they barely got 20.

Its crazy to me that a city the size of the bay area (and surrounding areas like sacramento) can only find 20 people to go to school to be a DPM. Laughable.

Its weird to be hearing so much about Samuel Merritt. I met one SM student during 4th year. We were at a pimping program. The attending asked about manifestations of Baxter's neuropathy and the student gave an answer that was so weird and soooooo long I honestly didn't know what I was hearing. I just remember thinking "that's not the textbook answer". The attending starred at them for awhile with this puzzled look and then just moved on. Thinking about it now I can't help but think of Billy Madison.

Back in the day I think CSPM was considered the best or one of the best schools. Many of the big names in podiatry are CSPM grads. Looks like they have fallen a lot.

They should not make the exams easier. This would make it harder for future podiatric medical students to take the USMLE someday, which would be a major milestone and turning point for podiatry.

I'd like to see schools collaborate to help students succeed and move the profession forward. Organizations like CPME should hold schools accountable when certain standards aren't met.

When I was a student one of the schools, IIRC NYCPM, was restricting some students from taking part 1. They were doing a preboards test and if they didnt get a certain % they were not able to sit for the real exam. They did this to increase their numbers so they could get reaccredited.

Paychecks and heartbeats.

 

[bloxxeeey]

The solution might be to open more schools maybe that way we'll have more competition in schools to help better some schools than the other. /s

 

[bloxxeeey]

Its crazy to me that a city the size of the bay area (and surrounding areas like sacramento) can only find 20 people to go to school to be a DPM. Laughable.

Back in the day I think CSPM was considered the best or one of the best schools. Many of the big names in podiatry are CSPM grads. Looks like they have fallen a lot.

When I was a student one of the schools, IIRC NYCPM, was restricting some students from taking part 1. They were doing a preboards test and if they didnt get a certain % they were not able to sit for the real exam. They did this to increase their numbers so they could get reaccredited.

Paychecks and heartbeats.

It's because podiatrist make less than most people in those metro areas. You go to school for 4 years + 4 years + 3 years of residency with huge amounts of debt to make less than someone who did a 4 year degree.

 

[Weirdy]

If pods are allowed to sit for USMLE and perform well on the exam it could potentially lead to more opportunities and hospital privileges.
The USMLE has more integrated questions, and frankly this is the way a physician should be assessed to provide better outcome for patients.

Podiatry students would get destroyed by the USMLE. APMLE is no where near level of complexity or 2nd, 3rd stem questions, topic coverage, etc etc.

 

[MicroPod]

Podiatry students would get destroyed by the USMLE. APMLE is no where near level of complexity or 2nd, 3rd stem questions, topic coverage, etc etc.

I think the top 25-50% of pod students (good test takers) would do fine if they dedicated as much time and energy as med students do to the exam. I knew many med students that studied for the exam from day 1 of med school.

 

[Pronation]

I think the top 25-50% of pod students (good test takers) would do fine if they dedicated as much time and energy as med students do to the exam. I knew many med students that studied for the exam from day 1 of med school.

Since we’re pulling numbers out of our dremel toenail dust collector bag, I’m going to estimate top 10%, and that’s being generous.

 

[MicroPod]

Since we’re pulling numbers out of our dremel toenail dust collector bag, I’m going to estimate top 10%, and that’s being generous.

The top 10% of the toenail dust collector bag, the crumbliest of the crumblies

 

[Feli]

Podiatry students would get destroyed by the USMLE. APMLE is no where near level of complexity or 2nd, 3rd stem questions, topic coverage, etc etc.

100%... AOFAS and AAOS know that and keep teasing it for that very reason.

 

[Robin-jay]

If podiatry schools are so worried about losing their accreditation over APMLE scores then why don't some of the schools try actually teaching APMLE material.

I know it's a crazy, out of this world thought.

 

[Adam Smasher]

#1, I doubt the schools are worried at all. Exceptions will be made, people will skate by.

Secondly, APMLE is mostly self-study. Schools have to be schools and not test-prep academies like Kaplan. Only thing schools can do is try to weed out students who shouldn't be sitting for the exam to begin with. In other words, be better gate keepers.

 

[Robin-jay]

#1, I doubt the schools are worried at all. Exceptions will be made, people will skate by.

Secondly, APMLE is mostly self-study. Schools have to be schools and not test-prep academies like Kaplan. Only thing schools can do is try to weed out students who shouldn't be sitting for the exam to begin with. In other words, be better gate keepers.

The main issue is that the APMLE is supposed to go over important, crucial information that will be significant in our careers.

The School is also supposed to teach us important, crucial information that will be significant to our careers.

The fact there is a massive lack of overlap is somewhat a problem imo, because both should be teaching similar content to achieve this goal of the most important topics of our career.

Having Samuel School get 69% pass rate after students put in 200k+ at that point makes podiatry seem like a poor investment, and rightfully so. No one should risk 200k+ on a school with a 69% pass rate of APMLE.

 

[DPMGuy]

If pods are allowed to sit for USMLE and perform well on the exam it could potentially lead to more opportunities and hospital privileges.
The USMLE has more integrated questions, and frankly this is the way a physician should be assessed to provide better outcome for patients.
Sitting for the USMLE is optional for DO students because their COMLEX exam is considered adequate. However, this is not the case for APMLE (yet). The AMPLE pass rate is different among the different pod schools. For example, DMU and AZPOD have mid 90s pass rate (great job!), and I'm confident many students in podiatry can pass USMLE if properly prepared with the right resources and guidance.

Unfortunately, it's going to be a challenge to convince the NBME if some schools are bombing the APMLE, but we should strive to move forward and not take the easy way out by making the exam easier. Organizations like CPME should be monitoring schools who are in danger every year and not every 5-7 years. There is too much at stakes for them to not hold these schools accountable.

The USMLE thing is never going to happen. The people who think it is are delusional. Don’t believe your school, they are lying to you.

 

[Adam Smasher]

The main issue is that the APMLE is supposed to go over important, crucial information that will be significant in our careers.

lol, who wants to take this one?

 

[Robin-jay]

The USMLE thing is never going to happen. The people who think it is are delusional. Don’t believe your school, they are lying to you.

If it does happen, there would be a a lot of caveats.

You couldn't have all the schools simulataneously be prepared enough to take the USMLE at the same time.

You would probably only have a couple schools with that ability, and then those schools would become the competitive pod schools. Then the rest may never be good enough to follow.

The main issue is that with new schools opening, the admissions process is essentially non-existent anymore.

You have to have a pulse to get accepted these days.

More schools + less applicants applying these days = less competitive students = less chance to ever make USMLE a thing.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

If it does happen, there would be a a lot of caveats.

You couldn't have all the schools simulataneously be prepared enough to take the USMLE at the same time.

You would probably only have a couple schools with that ability, and then those schools would become the competitive pod schools. Then the rest may never be good enough to follow.

The main issue is that with new schools opening, the admissions process is essentially non-existent anymore.

You have to have a pulse to get accepted these days.

More schools + less applicants applying these days = less competitive students = less chance to ever make USMLE a thing.

I really hope they don’t lower the admissions standards. People still have to pass boards at the end of the day.

It’s hard for me to understand how some of these schools have such low board pass rate, but their students are still able to finish year 2.

These are high stake exams and getting that first pass on your record is crucial to obtaining good residency.

 

[Robin-jay]

I really hope they don’t lower the admissions standards. People still have to pass boards at the end of the day.

It’s hard for me to understand how some of these schools have such low board pass rate, but their students are still able to finish year 2.

These are high stake exams and getting that first pass on your record is crucial to obtaining good residency.

Admission standards have to lower if you create new schools (so more spots), while at the same time student applications are lowering.

There's really no way around it.

So if you make the curriculum harder, you would have to have a higher attrition, which looks even worse.

I personally don't think standardized tests are significant in any way, shape, or form. I think the MCAT and any type of medical board should be tossed out. The APMLE doesn't test anything but how well you have resources before you take the exam. Although that could be said about most of the curriculum.

To me, redundant questions over the years for boards and classes have made "academic success" an illusion, and more of just a right of passage by getting through it.

Ex: Since you cannot tell if someone who has an A in microbiology (or any class) was actually earning it or just using resources, vs. someone who got a C, grades just don't matter at all nor do boards.