Salary of orthodontists

[Anondds87]

Hey guys, just wanting to find out what the salary range of orthodontists are.

As a general dentist I thought "well orthodontists must make a killing, if they get 40% of billings and braces cost $6000 it must be way easier to make money than general dentistry"

Since then I've spoken to some ppl and found that orthodontist associates get paid a daily rate rather than commission, and that daily rate isnt too far off what general dentists make (about 1000-1200 a day).

So weighing up the benefits of 3 years of tuition and lost income to essentially make the same as a GP.

Can anyone shed some light on this issue?

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[mmc12]

General dentists in NYC generally make 500-600 a day, not 1000-1200 which is what an orthodontist gets.

 

[charlestweed]

I'd be a very rich person by now, if I could charge $6k a case. The problem is there are not enough high income parents in the area where I practice, who can afford to pay that much for their kids' ortho tx. If I charged that much, I would be sitting around doing nothing all day long because none of the patients would accept the tx. And for the patients who can afford such high $6k fee, they'd rather go see an orthodontist, who speaks better English, who has better people skills, who has high tech equipments in the office etc....instead of seeing me.

I'd rather see 60-80 low income patients a day and get paid less per case than sitting around making nothing......and still have to pay the bills. It's still an easy job since the assistants do most of the manual labor for me. And this is the key difference between ortho and GP: for a general dentist to get paid, he/she (and not the assistant) has to sit down to perform the procedure.

And for the salary range answer....you already know how much an associate ortho makes....$1000-1500 a day. If an ortho works 365 days/year, he makes at least $365k/year. But if an ortho only works 2-3 days/week because he doesn't want to travel to multiple offices, then his income will be in the mid $100k. So the answer is the salary depends on how hard one works.

 

[Anondds87]

I'd be a very rich person by now, if I could charge $6k a case. The problem is there are not enough high income parents in the area where I practice, who can afford to pay that much for their kids' ortho tx. If I charged that much, I would be sitting around doing nothing all day long because none of the patients would accept the tx. And for the patients who can afford such high $6k fee, they'd rather go see an orthodontist, who speaks better English, who has better people skills, who has high tech equipments in the office etc....instead of seeing me.

I'd rather see 60-80 low income patients a day and get paid less per case than sitting around making nothing......and still have to pay the bills. It's still an easy job since the assistants do most of the manual labor for me. And this is the key difference between ortho and GP: for a general dentist to get paid, he/she (and not the assistant) has to sit down to perform the procedure.

And for the salary range answer....you already know how much an associate ortho makes....$1000-1500 a day. If an ortho works 365 days/year, he makes at least $365k/year. But if an ortho only works 2-3 days/week because he doesn't want to travel to multiple offices, then his income will be in the mid $100k. So the answer is the salary depends on how hard one works.

I guess the thing that I dont fully understand is why the salary is so different to general...
As a general dentist I got 40% commission (I understand that's on the high end) so to make $1000 in a day I would have to bill 2500. Not too difficult to do. If I was an orthodontist getting 40% of my billings I would make way more than that right? It would only require one new bond up per day? One new bond up every 2 days if we assume $5000 per case?

So why the big difference? Being paid 1000 per day as an orthodontist would be like getting paid closer to 20% commission? (That figure could be way off, I have no idea what an orthodontist bills per day so I'm guessing here). But certainly much less than the 40% commission you can get as a general associate.

It just seems being a general associate is a much better deal than being an ortho associate? Are ortho associates getting taken advantage of?

 

[mmc12]

I'd like to hear @2TH MVR response. He is an orthodontist who has owned his own office and works at a corp now.

 

[charlestweed]

I guess the thing that I dont fully understand is why the salary is so different to general...
As a general dentist I got 40% commission (I understand that's on the high end) so to make $1000 in a day I would have to bill 2500. Not too difficult to do. If I was an orthodontist getting 40% of my billings I would make way more than that right? It would only require one new bond up per day? One new bond up every 2 days if we assume $5000 per case?

Good luck finding a job that pays 40%, especially if you are a clueless new grad. You have to be very good and fast in order to get paid that much. I think the corp I work for pays their GPs 25%. It's actually not very easy to produce $2500 a day if you work at offices that accept medicaid/HMOs. And for higher end offices, the owner dentists usually keep all the highly productive procedures to themselves and give their associate GPs procedures that they hate to do such as fillings, cleanings and dentures etc. At some offices, when the owner dentist can't get enough patients to keep their associate dentist busy, they cut their associate dentist's days.

So why the big difference? Being paid 1000 per day as an orthodontist would be like getting paid closer to 20% commission? (That figure could be way off, I have no idea what an orthodontist bills per day so I'm guessing here). But certainly much less than the 40% commission you can get as a general associate.

It just seems being a general associate is a much better deal than being an ortho associate? Are ortho associates getting taken advantage of?

That's right. I'd rather be taken advatange of by the corp than staying home making nothing....it's still a very nice 6-figure income for working only 11 days/month. The corp office I work for charges between $3000-4000 per ortho case. The patients pay 200-300 down payment and their monthly payments will be around 120-150. So if an ortho sees 60-80 patients a day, he/she will produce for them around 6-8k a day. So the $1000-1500 this ortho gets paid is around %20-25. That's why I like to work for myself at my own offices because my overhead is around %37...and I get to keep 63% of my daily production. The problem is I only have enough patients to work 11 days/month at my offices. To keep myself busy, I work for the corp office the other 11 days in the month.

 

[Cold Front]

Just a reference point. Endodontists make 40-45% per root canal case if they are associates. The north-east has the highest fees in the country, with molar endo fees ranging from $1,500-1,600 for those states. At the other of the spectrum, some states have fees for molar Endo cases at $800-900. Not sure how busy they are during the first few years out of school, or how long it takes them to get busy without jumping from office to office.

Either way, ortho is probably still the top field for $/time ratio for active work. Successful General Dentists have the top $/time ratio for non-active work (multiple hygienists, associates, etc).

 

[Anondds87]

Good luck finding a job that pays 40%, especially if you are a clueless new grad. You have to be very good and fast in order to get paid that much. I think the corp I work for pays their GPs 25%. It's actually not very easy to produce $2500 a day if you work at offices that accept medicaid/HMOs. And for higher end offices, the owner dentists usually keep all the highly productive procedures to themselves and give their associate GPs procedures that they hate to do such as fillings, cleanings and dentures etc. At some offices, when the owner dentist can't get enough patients to keep their associate dentist busy, they cut their associate dentist's days.


That's right. I'd rather be taken advatange of by the corp than staying home making nothing....it's still a very nice 6-figure income for working only 11 days/month. The corp office I work for charges between $3000-4000 per ortho case. The patients pay 200-300 down payment and their monthly payments will be around 120-150. So if an ortho sees 60-80 patients a day, he/she will produce for them around 6-8k a day. So the $1000-1500 this ortho gets paid is around %20-25. That's why I like to work for myself at my own offices because my overhead is around %37...and I get to keep 63% of my daily production. The problem is I only have enough patients to work 11 days/month at my offices. To keep myself busy, I work for the corp office the other 11 days in the month.

Interesting. This is exactly the information I've been trying to find, so thank you for posting this! As a general dentist I kind of assumed ortho would essentially be paid the same way as a general dentist, thus billing 6-8k would result in a higher pay.

I wonder if a lot of young dentists go into ortho without realizing this? And are happy to take on huge residency debt because they assume pay will be done in the same was as when they work as general dentists?

 

[Anondds87]

Just a reference point. Endodontists make 40-45% per root canal case if they are associates. The north-east has the highest fees in the country, with molar endo fees ranging from $1,500-1,600 for those states. At the other of the spectrum, some states have fees for molar Endo cases at $800-900. Not sure how busy they are during the first few years out of school, or how long it takes them to get busy without jumping from office to office.

Either way, ortho is probably still the top field for $/time ratio for active work. Successful General Dentists have the top $/time ratio for non-active work (multiple hygienists, associates, etc).

I had no idea prices varied so much across the country!

 

[2TH MVR]

I'd like to hear @2TH MVR response. He is an orthodontist who has owned his own office and works at a corp now.

My past data (1993-2007) will probably be useless for these discussions and somewhat sobering. But my practices (two) easily collected 1.2 -1.5 million per year. A bad month was any month where collections were below 100K. My salary was approx 50% of collections. If you factor out the leased Porsches, and all the fluff (sporting tickets, meals and entertainment, etc. etc.) my salary would have been even higher. Yeah. Fun times.

2007-2012 after recession. Invisalign. DSC. Saturation. Remember .... I practice in a very saturated market (PHX). My collections were reduced by a third.

2012-2017 ...... getting older. Less marketing. Not changing the way I've practiced my entire career. Again .... very saturated market and getting worse with Corps everywhere. I was collecting between 500-600K. My salary was essentially half that number. Still good, but not like pre-2007.

2017-18 ... worked PT for Corp (3 days per week) ..... made 240K before taxes.

2019 - present. I was getting bored and was asked to take a third location. I now work 4 days per week and I'm on track to make around 300K before taxes.

I can't speak of other Corps, but I make a minimum of $1100 per day. Take into account bonuses ..... the daily can go up to ..... well anything. Depends on how busy the office is. Last pay period I made $1600 per day. Of course these numbers are pre-tax.

If you are good ..... you can work as much as you want to in Corp. Recently I was asked to take a 4th location. 5 days per week. I said no. 4 days is enough. My 3 days off is more important than making more $.

As for private practice orthodontists in saturated markets .... I have no idea. I still believe those orthos practicing in those rural areas with multiple locations are still doing very well. Again .... just an opinion.

 

[Cold Front]

My past data (1993-2007) will probably be useless for these discussions and somewhat sobering. But my practices (two) easily collected 1.2 -1.5 million per year. A bad month was any month where collections were below 100K. My salary was approx 50% of collections. If you factor out the leased Porsches, and all the fluff (sporting tickets, meals and entertainment, etc. etc.) my salary would have been even higher. Yeah. Fun times.

This was your 30’s-40’s; highly energetic, ambitious and you pushed yourself to make that $600-700k take home a year.

This is the take away for me, your 30’s and 40’s are the peak production years in dentistry. If you don’t capitalize on it, you may have to end up working in your 60s and even 70s to retire. I have seen dentists that didn’t open their practice until their late 40’s and dentists who went back to school and specialize in their late 30’s. So plan early and work hard, and you will have soft landing finish in this profession.

 

[Cold Front]

I had no idea prices varied so much across the country!

Insurance companies create a UCR fee for each dental procedure by way of tallying up all of the claims that have been submitted for that specific service within a particular geographic area (like by city, zip code, or grouping of zip codes). Fees can also vary based on how many of each procedure you are doing. If you are doing 100 crowns a month, your crown fee can be different than the dentist down the road who is doing 5 crowns a month.

 

[charlestweed]

Interesting. This is exactly the information I've been trying to find, so thank you for posting this! As a general dentist I kind of assumed ortho would essentially be paid the same way as a general dentist, thus billing 6-8k would result in a higher pay.

That’s how the 3 corps that I worked for in the past paid their associate orthos….guaranteed per diem pay + bonuses. For the bonus at my current corp job, I get $75 for every new case that I start. If you work for a GP as an in-house ortho, you can potentially make way more because some GP owners are willing to pay their in-house orthos 40-50% of the collection. But the problem is most GP offices only have enough patients to keep the ortho busy for 1-2 days a month. Another problem is most GP owners don’t provide experienced ortho assistants like the corp offices. That’s why many new grad orthos still prefer working for corp offices. Corps have a lot more patients and they also have more offices for their associate orthos to travel to. More work days = more money.

I wonder if a lot of young dentists go into ortho without realizing this? And are happy to take on huge residency debt because they assume pay will be done in the same was as when they work as general dentists?

Many general dentists, who work at the same corp with me, wished they could be an ortho like me when they saw how little I worked.... and I always smile. Some of them hate dentistry so much that they said they wouldn’t mind taking out additional student loans and spending additional years in school to become an ortho. Working as a general dentist is very hard...it’s not just the physical back pain that they have to endure….they also have to deal with patients’ complaints, patients who have unrealistic expectations, bossy office managers etc on regular basis. Many of them wanted to go back to school for ortho but they couldn’t either because they didn’t have good enough grades to get in (ortho is still a very competitive specialty to get in despite the high cost of education) or because they have family and kids to support. It’s always best to specialize right after dental school.

There is an ortho at my corp, who had practiced general dentistry for 7 years before he decided to back to school for ortho. For him, it was either being an ortho or getting a non-dental job because he has had a very bad back problem. Since the orthodontists can work many more years than the general dentists, they should have no problem paying back the additional 200-300k debt. Having a fun easy job for the next 20-30 years of your life is priceless. In 2015 when Tom Brady was 38 yo, he said he would like to play in the NFL for 10 more years. After I reach the retirement age of 65, I plan to work for 10 more years…. if God allows me to live that long. Ortho is a wonderful profession.

 

[charlestweed]

This was your 30’s-40’s; highly energetic, ambitious and you pushed yourself to make that $600-700k take home a year.

This is the take away for me, your 30’s and 40’s are the peak production years in dentistry. If you don’t capitalize on it, you may have to end up working in your 60s and even 70s to retire. I have seen dentists that didn’t open their practice until their late 40’s and dentists who went back to school and specialize in their late 30’s. So plan early and work hard, and you will have soft landing finish in this profession.

This is exactly how I feel. Why only work 3-4 days/week and only make X amount of dollars when my healthy body can easily handle 5-6 days/week so I can make 2X amount of money? Who doesn’t love $$$? I always assume that bad things (an economic recession, a new ortho office that attracts all the patients away from mine, a permanent disability, a life-threatening illness, death etc) can happen anytime so I work hard now to make sure that I save enough for my family. If I don't have kids, I probably think differently. I work hard now when the corp offices still value my skills, when patients still love me, and when ortho is still a very good profession. I don’t want to be in my 60s and still have to worry about saving for my retirement.

 

[Blueshirts]

Insurance companies create a UCR fee for each dental procedure by way of tallying up all of the claims that have been submitted for that specific service within a particular geographic area (like by city, zip code, or grouping of zip codes). Fees can also vary based on how many of each procedure you are doing. If you are doing 100 crowns a month, your crown fee can be different than the dentist down the road who is doing 5 crowns a month.

I’m trying to understand how the insurance fee scales work for dentistry, based on what you understand is it that they allocate a certain amount of $ payable per service per fiscal period (I.e., if your region bills out for tons of crowns, it is likely that the fees will decrease)?

 

[Cold Front]

I’m trying to understand how the insurance fee scales work for dentistry, based on what you understand is it that they allocate a certain amount of $ payable per service per fiscal period (I.e., if your region bills out for tons of crowns, it is likely that the fees will decrease)?

UCR charges are based on percentiles for different dental procedures in a region/area. There are two ways insurers set these. Insurers can calculate their own claims data for specific procedures in that geographic area. The other is UCR values are set at a level where 80% to 90% of local providers have charged that amount or less. If your insurer’s UCR charge for a routine cleaning is $200 at the 80th percentile, that means eight out of every 10 dentists in your local area charge $200 for that same cleaning. The UCR value for the cleaning is $200.

 

[Cold Front]

This is exactly how I feel. Why only work 3-4 days/week and only make X amount of dollars when my healthy body can easily handle 5-6 days/week so I can make 2X amount of money? Who doesn’t love $$$? I always assume that bad things (an economic recession, a new ortho office that attracts all the patients away from mine, a permanent disability, a life-threatening illness, death etc) can happen anytime so I work hard now to make sure that I save enough for my family. If I don't have kids, I probably think differently. I work hard now when the corp offices still value my skills, when patients still love me, and when ortho is still a very good profession. I don’t want to be in my 60s and still have to worry about saving for my retirement.

You can work hard early and retire early. Or you can enjoy life early and not work hard, but retire late. Majority of dentists fall into the latter. Even though I got into dental school in my late 20’s, I worked very hard to make sure I retire early. I’m 40% into my career timeline. Which means the hardest work I will ever do is now behind me (5-6 days a week). The next 30% is working semi-hard (4 days a week), and the last 30% will be/should be super easy (1-2 days a week).

 

[DrJeff]

I’m trying to understand how the insurance fee scales work for dentistry, based on what you understand is it that they allocate a certain amount of $ payable per service per fiscal period (I.e., if your region bills out for tons of crowns, it is likely that the fees will decrease)?

Nope.

The vast majority of dental insurances out there have an annual maximum that they will reimburse, regardless of if that covers the full amount of treatment that the patient needs. After the maximum is met, it's all up to the patient via out of pocket expenses or financing via a 3rd party (such as care credit) for any work that they have done until their "new" insurance year begins.

The majority of dental insurance plans that my patients have, have an annual maximum in the $1000 to $1500 range. There are a few isolated $2000 and $2500 maximums and a few sub $1000 maximums. The only real exception to that is with State employees in my home state of CT, where they don't have an annual maximum. When you consider that most dental insurances plans haven't seen an increase in their annual maximums (most employers don't opt to pay the added cost to provide a higher maximum for their employees) in literally decades, the reality is for many dental "insurance" is more like a coupon for $X off (whatever their annual maximum is) per year. Then factor in that most dental insurance plans have 3 classes of procedures that they reimburse at different percentages. That's typically 100% for preventative/diagnostic services (exams, cleanings, sealants, regular radiographs), 80% for restorative work (basically fillings in this category exclusively, and 50% for "major" work (endodontics, crowns and bridge work, dentures) you get a bunch of confusion and variability for sure.

As for the regional fee determination, it's all zipcode based, and then geographically grouped from there. There isn't any "extra" allocated or deducted based on the # of specific procedures done in one area. So for example, if I am charging say $1000 for a crown in my small, rural town in CT where I practice, and another dentist in CT down in the "gold coast" by Long Island Sound near the New York State border is charging $1500 for that same crown, and both patients have the same insurance (let's just say they both have the same Delta Dental, and haven't used up their annual maximum and each fee is within the UCR range that Delta Dental has deemed acceptable for the zipcodes our offices are in) for ease of explanation), my patient, would have Delta Dental pay $500 of that crown, and I would have to bill the patient the remainder up until the UCR fee (it would be $500 if my fee is UCR acceptable, but if Delta Dental determined the UCR for my region is $900, then I could only balance bill to that $900 amount) and the patient would be left with $500 available on their annual maximum still. For the patient in the other part, Delta Dental would pay $800 to the dentist and then the dentist could balance bill the other $800 (or whatever the amount up to the UCR fee is) and the patient would then have $200 left on their annual maximum.

If it seems confusing, it is.

If we get back to the orthodontics topic and insurance, most dental plans have a "lifetime" amount that they will pay the orthodontist for a case. My wife, a practing orthodontist, tells me that the majority of insurance plans her office deals with as that lifetime amount at $1500. So then the insurance pays the orthodontist the $1500, and then the patient is responsible for the balance.

Is it more complicated than it should/could be? Sure seems like it to me.

Does it cause issues, even with the most attentive of staff explaining all the details of insurance plans and patient payment responsibilities? Yup

 

[DrJeff]

You can work hard early and retire early. Or you can enjoy life early and not work hard, but retire late. Majority of dentists fall into the latter. Even though I got into dental school in my late 20’s, I worked very hard to make sure I retire early. I’m 40% into my career timeline. Which means the hardest work I will ever do is now behind me (5-6 days a week). The next 30% is working semi-hard (4 days a week), and the last 30% will be/should be super easy (1-2 days a week).

I'm kind of torn on if there is a "right" way to look at this or not. I'm nearing 50 years old. Been practicing for over 20 years now. Been practicing 3.5 days a week for the majority of my career. Are there times when I think back about should I have worked more days a week earlier in my career? Yup. Then I also think about what the opportunities that having a 3.5 day weekend every week (my work schedule is full days Tuesday - Thursday and then a 1/2 day on Friday and then short of an emergency or a week where I am taking a typical work day off for some other reason, I don't see the inside of my office from about 1:30PM on Friday until about 7:30AM on Tuesday) When I'm in the office, I'm busy. I am a combination of mentally and physically tired when I hop in my car and head home at the end of a work day, however I still am able to participate actively in my marriage and my kids lives as they have grown up into highschoolers now, as well as pursue various social and athletic endeavours that I enjoy. I like that balance.

I also know myself enough to realize that if I went crazy with the work schedule and set a goal to retire by say 55 (when my youngest will be out of college basically), I don't know if I could just give it all up, and walk away, and just play a lot of golf and ski in the non golf season, without wanting to be still practicing dentistry to some extent. Honestly right now, I can see myself going at the same schedule for another 10 years or so, and then scale back and eventually retire over probably a 3 to 5 year span baring some massive economic crash.

What that whole work/finances/spouse + kids (if applicable)/relaxation balance is will probably be different for most everyone. There really isn't a right or wrong way, just various ways that are appropriate for each person if you ask me

 

[Anondds87]

My past data (1993-2007) will probably be useless for these discussions and somewhat sobering. But my practices (two) easily collected 1.2 -1.5 million per year. A bad month was any month where collections were below 100K. My salary was approx 50% of collections. If you factor out the leased Porsches, and all the fluff (sporting tickets, meals and entertainment, etc. etc.) my salary would have been even higher. Yeah. Fun times.

2007-2012 after recession. Invisalign. DSC. Saturation. Remember .... I practice in a very saturated market (PHX). My collections were reduced by a third.

2012-2017 ...... getting older. Less marketing. Not changing the way I've practiced my entire career. Again .... very saturated market and getting worse with Corps everywhere. I was collecting between 500-600K. My salary was essentially half that number. Still good, but not like pre-2007.

2017-18 ... worked PT for Corp (3 days per week) ..... made 240K before taxes.

2019 - present. I was getting bored and was asked to take a third location. I now work 4 days per week and I'm on track to make around 300K before taxes.

I can't speak of other Corps, but I make a minimum of $1100 per day. Take into account bonuses ..... the daily can go up to ..... well anything. Depends on how busy the office is. Last pay period I made $1600 per day. Of course these numbers are pre-tax.

If you are good ..... you can work as much as you want to in Corp. Recently I was asked to take a 4th location. 5 days per week. I said no. 4 days is enough. My 3 days off is more important than making more $.

As for private practice orthodontists in saturated markets .... I have no idea. I still believe those orthos practicing in those rural areas with multiple locations are still doing very well. Again .... just an opinion.

Great response, thank you!

 

[321931]

I'm kind of torn on if there is a "right" way to look at this or not. I'm nearing 50 years old. Been practicing for over 20 years now. Been practicing 3.5 days a week for the majority of my career. Are there times when I think back about should I have worked more days a week earlier in my career? Yup. Then I also think about what the opportunities that having a 3.5 day weekend every week (my work schedule is full days Tuesday - Thursday and then a 1/2 day on Friday and then short of an emergency or a week where I am taking a typical work day off for some other reason, I don't see the inside of my office from about 1:30PM on Friday until about 7:30AM on Tuesday) When I'm in the office, I'm busy. I am a combination of mentally and physically tired when I hop in my car and head home at the end of a work day, however I still am able to participate actively in my marriage and my kids lives as they have grown up into highschoolers now, as well as pursue various social and athletic endeavours that I enjoy. I like that balance.

I also know myself enough to realize that if I went crazy with the work schedule and set a goal to retire by say 55 (when my youngest will be out of college basically), I don't know if I could just give it all up, and walk away, and just play a lot of golf and ski in the non golf season, without wanting to be still practicing dentistry to some extent. Honestly right now, I can see myself going at the same schedule for another 10 years or so, and then scale back and eventually retire over probably a 3 to 5 year span baring some massive economic crash.

What that whole work/finances/spouse + kids (if applicable)/relaxation balance is will probably be different for most everyone. There really isn't a right or wrong way, just various ways that are appropriate for each person if you ask me

You have to have a healthy balance- and that balance is different for everyone.

 

[Cold Front]

I'm kind of torn on if there is a "right" way to look at this or not. I'm nearing 50 years old. Been practicing for over 20 years now.

That’s the thing. You practiced 20 years to the best of your ability in work-life balance. You started owning a practice early and were able to work 3.5 days a week, most associates don’t. Also, you raised a family successfully, so things should get much much easier when you become an empty nester soon. As long as you have your health (the real wealth), you have nothing to worry about my friend.

I’m 40 and owned a practice for almost 10 years. No kids yet - the wife and I are planning to start a family soon. If I could do it all over again, I would have not changed anything. I’m very methodical about where I see myself in the future and worked very hard to be there. I’m lucky and very fortunate, and actually looking forward to turning 50 in a decade. I remember when I was 30, looking forward to age 40 made me so anxious - because that’s when I was about to embark on the journey of the unknown (practices, marriage, other businesses, etc). No more of that!

 

[charlestweed]

You can work hard early and retire early. Or you can enjoy life early and not work hard, but retire late. Majority of dentists fall into the latter. Even though I got into dental school in my late 20’s, I worked very hard to make sure I retire early. I’m 40% into my career timeline. Which means the hardest work I will ever do is now behind me (5-6 days a week). The next 30% is working semi-hard (4 days a week), and the last 30% will be/should be super easy (1-2 days a week).

To some, enjoying life means working and making just enough so they can spend their time outside of work to travel to see the world because they don't want to waste their youth years. To me, enjoying life means not having to worry about paying bills, leasing a new car every 2-3 years, seeing our kids growing up in a comfortable environment, being able to take my family out for delicious food at different good restaurants whenever I want to, living in nice/safe neighborhood with polite neighbors who are doctors, dentists, lawyers, enjoying the beautiful weather 365 days/year etc. I work more days than most of my colleagues so I can afford to pay for all these conveniences + to save for the kids' college education and future retirement. Since I already have all these conveniences, I don't really need to travel often. Spending a couple of days off in San Diego or Vegas is enough to entertain us. I am living in the best country in the world. There is no place like home. I am enjoying life every day. I am glad that I picked the right profession that gives me this awesome lifestyle.

What's the point of making a lot of money but have to live in the middle of nowhere, where there are very few good places to eat...and you have to drive very far to get there? When I traveled, I always looked for good Vietnamese/Chinese/Thai/Korean restaurants nearby the hotels where we stayed at....sadly, most of them were not as good as the restarants in my home town in Orange County.

 

[Cold Front]

To some, enjoying life means working and making just enough so they can spend their time outside of work to travel to see the world because they don't want to waste their youth years. To me, enjoying life means not having to worry about paying bills, leasing a new car every 2-3 years, seeing our kids growing up in a comfortable environment, being able to take my family out for delicious food at different good restaurants whenever I want to, living in nice/safe neighborhood with polite neighbors who are doctors, dentists, lawyers, enjoying the beautiful weather 365 days/year etc. I work more days than most of my colleagues so I can afford to pay for all these conveniences + to save for the kids' college education and future retirement. Since I already have all these conveniences, I don't really need to travel often. Spending a couple of days off in San Diego or Vegas is enough to entertain us. I am living in the best country in the world. There is no place like home. I am enjoying life every day. I am glad that I picked the right profession that gives me this awesome lifestyle.

What's the point of making a lot of money but have to live in the middle of nowhere, where there are very few good places to eat...and you have to drive very far to get there? When I traveled, I always looked for good Vietnamese/Chinese/Thai/Korean restaurants nearby the hotels where we stayed at....sadly, most of them were not as good as the restarants in my home town in Orange County.

One question remains, would you work even harder if you were new graduate today - with much bigger debt, more difficult environment for dentistry/ortho and basically life in general. Do you have the belief that you can overcome any of those obstacles regardless of how high they would be - simply because “hard work” can overcome any financial and economic barriers that may face dentistry? I certainly couldn’t, and I honestly think you work hard because you have been raised with hard work is essential and never let your guard down attitude.

 

[2TH MVR]

I'm kind of torn on if there is a "right" way to look at this or not. I'm nearing 50 years old. Been practicing for over 20 years now.

Awesome. In a few months I'll be 57. A young 57. Been practicing over 26 years and still love what I do. The 50's is a special time. A time when most parents become empty nesters. A time that husband and wife can reconnect their lives prior to children. It's also a time that your body will start to send you signals that you are not that fit pre 50s person anymore.
Everyone has a different path. No path is perfect for everyone. I have no intentions of retiring at a set date. I'll know when it is time. Tentatively I'm looking around the age of 65-67 to hang it up. But who knows.
My career defines me and provides social interaction with patients and colleagues. This is very important for me.

Can't play the "What if?" scenario with your past work schedule. When I was in private practice .... I worked mon - thurs. 4 days. Could I have worked 5 or 6 days per week? Sure. But I didn't. I've mentioned many times that if I did not spend my money on some materialistic stuff (nice cars, small boats, beach condos, etc. etc.) I would probably be able to quit work today. But I would have missed out on all those wonderful memories I spent with my family at the beach condo. Doing exotic car trips with my daughters. Time on the boat. Etc. Etc.

Point is. It's your decision how you want to practice and how long you want to practice. Nobody elses.

 

[charlestweed]

One question remains, would you work even harder if you were new graduate today - with much bigger debt, more difficult environment for dentistry/ortho and basically life in general. Do you have the belief that you can overcome any of those obstacles regardless of how high they would be - simply because “hard work” can overcome any financial and economic barriers that may face dentistry? I certainly couldn’t, and I honestly think you work hard because you have been raised with hard work is essential and never let your guard down attitude.

Today new grads don’t need to work harder than me in order to have the same comfortable lifestyle like mine. If they are willing to work hard (ie 6-7 days/week like what I did after graduation), they should do fine. When I was a new grad, I didn’t make as much as what today new grads make now. My first corp job paid me $800/day and another corp paid me $950/day. Today new grad orthos get paid $1200-1500/day. My colleagues charge more and make more $$$ per ortho case than me. But my overall salary is still higher than theirs because I work more days per month than them and I treat more patients per day than them.

Why do I continue to work so hard? Because I set goal for myself and that is to become 100% debt-free before my 49th birthday. I already paid off all the debts for my rental properties. The image below is the summary of my home loan, which is the only debt that I have left. I plan to pay this off by the end of next year. The monthly payment is $4500/month but I pay $20,000 every month. The next due date will not be until 3/1/2020. I usually pay 6 months in advance…in case something happens to me, my wife should have more time to deal with the unforeseeable problem.

 

[321931]

One question remains, would you work even harder if you were new graduate today - with much bigger debt, more difficult environment for dentistry/ortho and basically life in general. Do you have the belief that you can overcome any of those obstacles regardless of how high they would be - simply because “hard work” can overcome any financial and economic barriers that may face dentistry? I certainly couldn’t, and I honestly think you work hard because you have been raised with hard work is essential and never let your guard down attitude.

The statement everyone should examine is : are you working smarter and not harder?

The question posed is like: what’s smarter? if you were to lift rocks all day long to build a dig site or instead invested in a bulldozer to lift rocks... what would make more sense?

Yes you are working harder when you lift rocks all day long, but is it smarter? No.

There’s a reason why doctors condense their schedules to 4 days a week and also become more efficient in going out of network. It’s not because they are lazy, but rather they are more efficient and actually make more by lessening overheard and condensing schedules then spreading out a 6 day workweek with holes in their schedule. The plus side is that you have a 3 day weekend to chill.

So to me as a new grad, I would ask what makes more sense. To some going rural with cheaper cost of living and no insurance makes sense and is smarter. To some going to semi metro area and having a balance makes more sense, and to some working 6 days a week to live in their Desired city makes more sense. And there is no right or wrong answer. For me semi metro was a good compromise.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

To some going rural with cheaper cost of living and no insurance makes sense and is smarter. To some going to semi metro area and having a balance makes more sense, and to some working 6 days a week to live in their Desired city makes more sense.

But, it universally makes sense to go to the cheapest dental school you get into. You hear that, predents?

Big Hoss

 

[Anondds87]

Coming back to the original question on salaries, it seems as an ortho associate has a limit as to what they can earn as it's a daily rate, would you guys recommend pursuing ortho if I was only interested in being an associate? Or is it only worthwhile specialising in ortho if you pursue ownership? Is it easier to get jobs as an ortho associate than a general associate? Is it easier to negotiate salary holidays etc than in general?

 

[2TH MVR]

Coming back to the original question on salaries, it seems as an ortho associate has a limit as to what they can earn as it's a daily rate, would you guys recommend pursuing ortho if I was only interested in being an associate? Or is it only worthwhile specialising in ortho if you pursue ownership? Is it easier to get jobs as an ortho associate than a general associate? Is it easier to negotiate salary holidays etc than in general?

It depends. We've said it before it depends alot on where you want to practice. Saturated urban markets vs. Mid-rural areas vs. rural areas. It depends on your attitude on working for another orthodontist vs. working for a Corp. Are there associate ortho jobs that provide low cost medical/vision insurance, 401K, PTO, sick leave, paid malpractice premiums, paid life insurance premiums, free CE, etc. etc.? I cannot see how private practice associateships can match the benefits of working for a Corp. I am not pro Corp. I just believe given the options of a no future ortho associateship with no chance of partnership/buy-in/ownership vs Corp. I take Corp every day. All day. An ortho in Corp has it made. We do not have to deal with all the crap the GPs have to deal with.

Ownership is obviously the goal. The attainability and success of ownership will depend on location. Urban, saturated areas ....Orthos need to diversify between ownership and working for Corps, Pedos, GP's. That's the way the market is now for orthos in those saturated areas. I currently work out of three offices. I like it. I like the change in scenary. If you choose a less saturated area .... your chances of traditional ownership increase greatly.

GP's are always in demand. It's a numbers thing. The Corp I work for has hired 1-2 new GPs every month. They have hired an orthodontist maybe one every 6-12 months. Same for the other specialists. Typically in a saturated area ... an Ortho is hired PT. Initially I worked 2 days a week and 4 days at my private practice. Once you prove your worth .... you will be offered other locations. I went from one location 2 days per week to 3 locations 4 days per week. Sold my private practice once I knew I was going to get more days at the Corp. Sold the private practice because I wanted an easier lifestyle at my stage in life.

Choose ortho for the lifestyle. The ease of the daily treatment. Orthos are usually always happy. An ortho working for Corp will usually make almost double what a GP makes in Corp. Ortho (in saturated areas) is no longer that golden goose like it once was, but the lifestyle has remained. There is no denying that ortho is the easiest, low stress, ease of treatment dental specialty hands down.

Choose ortho only if your debt is reasonable.

 

[charlestweed]

Coming back to the original question on salaries, it seems as an ortho associate has a limit as to what they can earn as it's a daily rate, would you guys recommend pursuing ortho if I was only interested in being an associate? Or is it only worthwhile specialising in ortho if you pursue ownership? Is it easier to get jobs as an ortho associate than a general associate? Is it easier to negotiate salary holidays etc than in general?

It’s much harder to find jobs as an ortho associate than as a general associate because:

1. When their offices grow and get busier, the owner orthodontists can just hire a couple more low pay part time ortho assistants to help them. They don’t need to pay big bucks to bring in an associate ortho. For general dentistry, the dental assistants’ duties are very limited and therefore, the GP owners have to hire associate GPs to help them….that’s why there are more jobs available for the GPs

2. An orthodontist can handle high patient volume (60-80 patients) in a day. Only a few days/month are needed for an orthodontist to treat all the active patients. Therefore, most offices only hire associate orthos part time. To get full time 5-6 days/week schedule, the orthodontists have to travel to multiple offices.

3. Corp offices prefer the orthodontists who have the experience to handle high patient volume, who are good and fast, who can work with the supplies that they provide and who don't complain about the lack of modern equipment. They don’t want new grads. They don't want a revolving door of inexperienced orthodontists. For ortho, it’s very important to have cases that are started and finished by the same orthodontist. Patients usually get very upset when they keep seeing a different ortho every month.

4. Most new grad orthodontists don’t want to work for GP owners as in-house ortho because of lower salaries (compare to corp salaries), lack of experienced assistants, lack of supplies etc. Therefore, their job options become more limited.

Most orthodontists I know do both: working part time at their own offices and working part time for corp offices. It’s the best of both worlds. You don’t need to worry too much about going around begging the GPs…about losing a GP referral....about having a slow day at your office. When you work part time at your office, you only need to hire part time asisstants.....this helps save a lot in overhead. You have steady cash flow. You are not worried about getting fired. It’s better to work for different companies so when one company fires you, you still have other jobs.

 

[Cold Front]

I set goal for myself and that is to become 100% debt-free before my 49th birthday. I already paid off all the debts for my rental properties. The image below is the summary of my home loan, which is the only debt that I have left. I plan to pay this off by the end of next year. The monthly payment is $4500/month but I pay $20,000 every month. The next due date will not be until 3/1/2020. I usually pay 6 months in advance…in case something happens to me, my wife should have more time to deal with the unforeseeable problem.

Not sure how old you are today Charles, but being debt free at age 49 is a pretty impressive milestone. I’m guessing you are 48 today, since you plan to pay off your mortgage next year (at age 49). I’m 40 and have a bigger debt today, but should be in a very good spot in 10 years. My home mortgage balance is about 700k now (it’s valued about $1.3M today)... hoping to pay it off before I turn 45.

 

[8_man]

Random question, but is it too late for me to consider ortho? As in, applying to and getting into a program upon graduation? I just started my third year and I'm just keeping my options open. Pertinent information about me would be a good class rank and a co-author for research that is in the works for publication. However, I have showed no previous signs of ortho interest.

 

[2TH MVR]

Not sure how old you are today Charles, but being debt free at age 49 is a pretty impressive milestone. I’m guessing you are 48 today, since you plan to pay off your mortgage next year (at age 49). I’m 40 and have a bigger debt today, but should be in a very good spot in 10 years. My home mortgage balance is about 700k now (it’s valued about $1.3M today)... hoping to pay it off before I turn 45.

With all the doom and gloom .... it's nice to read some success stories. With hard work, smart early financial decisions and preserverance dentistry can be successful regardless of the environment.

 

[charlestweed]

Not sure how old you are today Charles, but being debt free at age 49 is a pretty impressive milestone. I’m guessing you are 48 today, since you plan to pay off your mortgage next year (at age 49). I’m 40 and have a bigger debt today, but should be in a very good spot in 10 years. My home mortgage balance is about 700k now (it’s valued about $1.3M today)... hoping to pay it off before I turn 45.

I will be 48 in 2.5 months. My CPA told me not to pay it off too soon and that I should use the money to buy more properties. But I didn't listen to him because I am getting tired of owing money and paying bills. I am a low risk taker. I don't want to keep on working so hard to pay back additional debts....I know the renters should help with the monthly mortage payments but they are still the debts that I am responsible for. I can't predict the future of the ortho profession. I don't know if I will continue to generate the same income 5-10 years from now. I don't know what my health condition will be like 5-10 years from now. Therefore, it is safe to just get rid of the debt now. And for the next property(ies) I will purchase in the future, I will pay it (them) in full....no more dealing with the banks.

After paying off this house, I will still have to spend at least $2k every month on it ( $22k/year property tax + $3k/year home insurance + maintenances).

 

[charlestweed]

Random question, but is it too late for me to consider ortho? As in, applying to and getting into a program upon graduation? I just started my third year and I'm just keeping my options open. Pertinent information about me would be a good class rank and a co-author for research that is in the works for publication. However, I have showed no previous signs of ortho interest.

It is probably late for this application cycle because some ortho programs have the August 15th deadline. It takes time to ask the professors to write letters of recommendation, to get all the college and dental school transcripts, and to write a good personal statement. You will have to apply in your 4th year. And if you get in, you will have to work (or attend a GPR/AEGD program) for a year before you start your ortho residency.

During the first 2 years of dental school, I didn't think much about ortho because I didn't think I was smart enough. As soon as I got the national board score result back, I changed my mind and applied for ortho. I was very lucky that I went to a Pass/Fail school that didn't rank the students. My board score + the research project helped me get in. Now that the board is P/F and I am not sure if ortho programs start looking at the new ADAT or not.....I hope your class rank and your research are good enough for ortho. It's still a very difficult specialty to get in. Start studying for the GRE and ADAT now and do well on them.

Edit: I re-read your post....you start your 3rd year....you should be fine.

 

[mmc12]

Random question, but is it too late for me to consider ortho? As in, applying to and getting into a program upon graduation? I just started my third year and I'm just keeping my options open. Pertinent information about me would be a good class rank and a co-author for research that is in the works for publication. However, I have showed no previous signs of ortho interest.

Generally, high class rank and research are the main requirements for getting interviews. IF you don't match, you might also consider applying for ortho one-year internships. Some internships have high rates of matching at their home programs.

 

[Cold Front]

After paying off this house, I will still have to spend at least $2k every month on it ( $22k/year property tax + $3k/year home insurance + maintenances).

I can see your VERY conservative approach to retirement, which is perfectly fine. You have weighed all your options and chose what you feel most comfortable with - which is 0 debt ASAP.

One take away for me is that you are very or seriously concerned or not confident about the outlook of the ortho profession during what’s left of your career, at least in the next decade and beyond. What is the basis of that lack of confidence? Is ortho heading in a negative light trajectory - as far as income? Or is it just where you practice? Typically, orthodontists are well known to practice until very late in their career (60-70’s) because of the lack of physical work compared to general dentists.

I lucked out with my property taxes. Currently paying $0 for 15 years due to a tax abatement program that was passed in my community by the local mayor and city. Developers lobbied for it, and that’s what happened. Or I would have been paying $2k a month as well.

 

[Cold Front]

With all the doom and gloom .... it's nice to read some success stories. With hard work, smart early financial decisions and preserverance dentistry can be successful regardless of the environment.

I think it’s because those of us in this financial position are in our 40’s and 50’s and have been practicing for a decade or 2. When you graduate with less debt, work hard, avoid setbacks (failed business, procrastinating or a divorce), make investments early and a LOT of planning - your odds of beating the game is very high.

 

[charlestweed]

I can see your VERY conservative approach to retirement, which is perfectly fine. You have weighed all your options and chose what you feel most comfortable with - which is 0 debt ASAP.

One take away for me is that you are very or seriously concerned or not confident about the outlook of the ortho profession during what’s left of your career, at least in the next decade and beyond. What is the basis of that lack of confidence? Is ortho heading in a negative light trajectory - as far as income? Or is it just where you practice? Typically, orthodontists are well known to practice until very late in their career (60-70’s) because of the lack of physical work compared to general dentists.

I lucked out with my property taxes. Currently paying $0 for 15 years due to a tax abatement program that was passed in my community by the local mayor and city. Developers lobbied for it, and that’s what happened. Or I would have been paying $2k a month as well.

One very obvious reason: significant increase in number of new orthodontists graduating every year due to the openings of new ortho programs in the last 10 years. It’s not just ortho. The openings of new dental schools and pedo programs also hurt general dentists and pedodontists as well. When these dentists and pedodontists face fierce competitions and high debt problems, they’ll start treating more ortho cases and refer less to orthodontists. And for new grad orthodontists with high debt, they will have to lower the tx fee to increase case acceptances in order to survive. Currently, I am enjoying being the orthodontist who charges the lowest fee in town.

Second reason: As I get older I become less motivated to work hard. I am getting lazy. In order to maintain the current level of success, I can’t just take things easy…I have to continue to do my best to keep the referring GPs and the patients happy so I can get referrals from them. I don’t think I can keep pushing myself to work hard like this for another 5-10 years. It’s an easy job but it is still very stressful when I have to constantly try to impress the patients and the referring GPs.

Third reason: I can’t predict my health condition. I’ve seen young people who have cancer, stroke and heart attack. I don't know if I will be healthy enough 5-10 years from now....and will be able to work as hard as I do now in order to maintain the same level of success. I think declining healh is one of the major reasons why older docs don't produce as much as when they were younger....losing so much money, many have to sell their practices and either retire or work for the corp offices.

 

[Cold Front]

One very obvious reason: significant increase in number of new orthodontists graduating every year due to the openings of new ortho programs in the last 10 years. It’s not just ortho. The openings of new dental schools and pedo programs also hurt general dentists and pedodontists as well. When these dentists and pedodontists face fierce competitions and high debt problems, they’ll start treating more ortho cases and refer less to orthodontists. And for new grad orthodontists with high debt, they will have to lower the tx fee to increase case acceptances in order to survive. Currently, I am enjoying being the orthodontist who charges the lowest fee in town.

Second reason: As I get older I become less motivated to work hard. I am getting lazy. In order to maintain the current level of success, I can’t just take things easy…I have to continue to do my best to keep the referring GPs and the patients happy so I can get referrals from them. I don’t think I can keep pushing myself to work hard like this for another 5-10 years. It’s an easy job but it is still very stressful when I have to constantly try to impress the patients and the referring GPs.

Third reason: I can’t predict my health condition. I’ve seen young people who have cancer, stroke and heart attack. I don't know if I will be healthy enough 5-10 years from now....and will be able to work as hard as I do now in order to maintain the same level of success. I think declining healh is one of the major reasons why older docs don't produce as much as when they were younger....losing so much money, many have to sell their practices and either retire or work for the corp offices.

Those are all valid reasons:

1. There will be a new dental school opening in El Paso, Texas next year. I’m confident they will add post-doc programs (ortho, Endo, Pedo and so on) to that school. I’m also confident that everyone who graduates from that school and residency programs will leave town after graduation and move to a big city, aka more saturation.

2. Motivation can keep going until your body tells you otherwise. If you had not paid off your loans and debt sooner, you would still be motivated to work hard the next 5-10 years. So you have created a conundrum for yourself.

3. Your future health condition should not make you live in fear/at least in some doubt. Focus on life from one moment to another. The odds that you will live healthy and well into your 70’s is way above 50:50 chance. The last thing you need is throwing the towel early and live healthy for another 30 years. That’s really long time. Also, those who keep working into their 70’s have higher life expectancy, according to the social security administration.

 

[321931]

Those are all valid reasons:

1. There will be a new dental school opening in El Paso, Texas next year. I’m confident they will add post-doc programs (ortho, Endo, Pedo and so on) to that school. I’m also confident that everyone who graduates from that school and residency programs will leave town after graduation and move to a big city, aka more saturation.

2. Motivation can keep going until your body tells you otherwise. If you had not paid off your loans and debt sooner, you would still be motivated to work hard the next 5-10 years. So you have created a conundrum for yourself.

3. Your future health condition should not make you live in fear/at least in some doubt. Focus on life from one moment to another. The odds that you will live healthy and well into your 70’s is way above 50:50 chance. The last thing you need is throwing the towel early and live healthy for another 30 years. That’s really long time. Also, those who keep working into their 70’s have higher life expectancy, according to the social security administration.

There only so much back/body abuse, and patient BS that one can take before throwing in the towel and retiring and or semi-retiring (working 1-2 days a week just to keep busy). Contrary to what everyone thinks, I am in the camp that this field has 20-30 years max before injuries make it really really painful to practice. Back, hand, eyes. Hunched over for 20 years in small enclosed spaces will def have a lasting effect.

 

[charlestweed]

Those are all valid reasons:

1. There will be a new dental school opening in El Paso, Texas next year. I’m confident they will add post-doc programs (ortho, Endo, Pedo and so on) to that school. I’m also confident that everyone who graduates from that school and residency programs will leave town after graduation and move to a big city, aka more saturation.

2. Motivation can keep going until your body tells you otherwise. If you had not paid off your loans and debt sooner, you would still be motivated to work hard the next 5-10 years. So you have created a conundrum for yourself.

3. Your future health condition should not make you live in fear/at least in some doubt. Focus on life from one moment to another. The odds that you will live healthy and well into your 70’s is way above 50:50 chance. The last thing you need is throwing the towel early and live healthy for another 30 years. That’s really long time. Also, those who keep working into their 70’s have higher life expectancy, according to the social security administration.

I will stop living in fear until I know my 2 kids are able to take care of themselves (ie when they get accepted to a professional school) and their own families after they get married. Right now, I need to stay alive and healthy to pay for their private schools, tennis, piano, ACT/SAT prep classes etc....things that help them become a more well rounded person. By the time they apply, Med/Dent schools will be much harder to get in. I will never be as good of a father to my kids as my own father to me but I try to do my best.

 

[2TH MVR]

Hey @charlestweed ..... Can you adopt me?

 

[Cold Front]

There only so much back/body abuse, and patient BS that one can take before throwing in the towel and retiring and or semi-retiring (working 1-2 days a week just to keep busy). Contrary to what everyone thinks, I am in the camp that this field has 20-30 years max before injuries make it really really painful to practice. Back, hand, eyes. Hunched over for 20 years in small enclosed spaces will def have a lasting effect.

I agree. But having the luxury of knowing these issues in advance, a dentist can approach the latter years of his/her career cautiously and still navigate around those issues by being more conscious towards them.

 

[Cold Front]

I will stop living in fear until I know my 2 kids are able to take care of themselves (ie when they get accepted to a professional school) and their own families after they get married. Right now, I need to stay alive and healthy to pay for their private schools, tennis, piano, ACT/SAT prep classes etc....things that help them become a more well rounded person. By the time they apply, Med/Dent schools will be much harder to get in. I will never be as good of a father to my kids as my own father to me but I try to do my best.

Dude, you are a Tiger Dad! You dedicated your life to your kids... I would probably never be at that level if I have kids. They might resent me for pushing them that hard. Besides, how do you really know that they want to do what you EXACTLY want them to do or become?

 

[charlestweed]

Dude, you are a Tiger Dad! You dedicated your life to your kids... I would probably never be at that level if I have kids. They might resent me for pushing them that hard. Besides, how do you really know that they want to do what you EXACTLY want them to do or become?

I want them to have good stable job so they can continue to have the same comfortable lifestyle after we are gone. They are Asians. They can't make money playing sport or being a famous musician etc. They can't find jobs with only a BS degree. The only safe route is being a dentist or doctor. If I let them do whatever they like, they will end up being like some of my dentist and doctor friends' kids who didn't listen to their parents.....irresponsible carefree lifestyle.... 5th year 6th year seniors....using their parent's money to travel everywhere.....don't want to work on the weekends etc.

I hope they will be as good as their older cousins: 3 are in med schools, 1 is in dental school, and 1 is applying for dental schools and has received 4 interviews so far. If they don't get in I hope they will be responsible enough to manage the investment properties that I have saved for them.

 

[Cold Front]

If they don't get in I hope they will be responsible enough to manage the investment properties that I have saved for them.

So god forbid, if they opt for Plan B and go with managing your investment properties, do they wait for that as inheritance or you just give it to them to manage at some point? And what’s the size of that operation (I’m assuming those are residential properties)?

 

[charlestweed]

So god forbid, if they opt for Plan B and go with managing your investment properties, do they wait for that as inheritance or you just give it to them to manage at some point? And what’s the size of that operation (I’m assuming those are residential properties)?

Yes, they will have to wait.....that's the "punishment" for not listening to me. Not much.....just 3 houses, 1 5-unit apt, and a current house we are living in.

 

[8_man]

It is probably late for this application cycle because some ortho programs have the August 15th deadline. It takes time to ask the professors to write letters of recommendation, to get all the college and dental school transcripts, and to write a good personal statement. You will have to apply in your 4th year. And if you get in, you will have to work (or attend a GPR/AEGD program) for a year before you start your ortho residency.

During the first 2 years of dental school, I didn't think much about ortho because I didn't think I was smart enough. As soon as I got the national board score result back, I changed my mind and applied for ortho. I was very lucky that I went to a Pass/Fail school that didn't rank the students. My board score + the research project helped me get in. Now that the board is P/F and I am not sure if ortho programs start looking at the new ADAT or not.....I hope your class rank and your research are good enough for ortho. It's still a very difficult specialty to get in. Start studying for the GRE and ADAT now and do well on them.

Edit: I re-read your post....you start your 3rd year....you should be fine.

Thanks for the information Charlestweed, much appreciated. I never knew that I would need my college transcripts, but I suppose that will help my case. And I'll keep in mind that August 15th deadline for next year then.

Generally, high class rank and research are the main requirements for getting interviews. IF you don't match, you might also consider applying for ortho one-year internships. Some internships have high rates of matching at their home programs.

That's great to hear, thanks mmc12. I'll think about it a little more before I actually consider applying, but listening to the conversation of this thread has piqued my interest.