Salary needed to pay off enormous student loans

[docB]

Some have argued that the easy availability of large amounts of student loan funding has led to universities inflating their tuition.

I think that is very true. If only we could think of another industry where having having someone besides the person getting the benefit paying the costs has driven up the prices.

Yes but things that Democrat reformists like Ted Kennedy dream about..offering universal health care on demand...are only possible when education is essentially completely FREE like it is in the EU.

You cannot demand healthcare change with the corresponding lower physician salary and at the same time allow education costs to be racheted up to obscene levels...Im mean seriously 50K to educate a medical student?! What are they doing, offering hotel suites complete with hookers and blow to justify that cost?!

Hence why academics rags at places like Harvard are the biggest hypocrites of the modern era, somehow..somehow (LMAO) they can imagine a more socially just manner to distribute healthcare but cannot help from raising tuition, business decision or not. They very much operate like for profits with non-profit status, which when called on it is the real reason why they got scared and threw some peanuts to incoming IV league undergrads..

Good point. I think that once we socialize (to which I am resigned) the costs of medical education will go down and no one who would be currently qualified to get into med school will want to. The quality of med students and physicians will decrease and by the time anyone notices or cares it will be too late. The public won't really fight it because, as I've always said, Americans want the absolute best medical care they can get without ever paying anything out of pocket.

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[Psychopathology]

I mean seriously 50K to educate a medical student?! What are they doing, offering hotel suites complete with hookers and blow to justify that cost?!

Nope, unfortunately.

But I now have suggestions for our dean

And they do nothing to educate us about the business of medicine or the politico-econoimc arena we are about to enter. Otherwise, we have unlimited opportunities to listen to some ivory tower professor stand on a soapbox extolling the virtues of socialized health care. It's really the only view they entertain here and all of the lectureres have been in the game long enough to remember the good old days and to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. They will be retired long before the content of their sermons hits the proverbial fan.

I agree with the general sentiment of this thread. I have friends who vehemently support socialized healthcare while complaining bitterly about their $200K+ debt. The friends that come to mind are going into primary care. One of them has specifically told me that he/she does not want to work much more than 40 hours a week. Inevitably, these students will be separated from the ivory tower preachers and be forced to repay student loans, mortgage, raise a family, make car payments, income tax, property tax, allocate money for investments and retirement, etc... They're gonna live like college students with their meager discretionary incomes unless they marry into money.

 

[docB]

And they do nothing to educate us about the business of medicine or the politico-econoimc arena we are about to enter. Otherwise, we have unlimited opportunities to listen to some ivory tower professor stand on a soapbox extolling the virtues of socialized health care. It's really the only view they entertain here and all of the lectureres have been in the game long enough to remember the good old days and to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. They will be retired long before the content of their sermons hits the proverbial fan.

You have hit on a very uncomfortable subject for those in undergraduate medical education: They don't do a good job of teaching about the business of medicine because they have no one capable or qualified to teach it. As academics they are insulated from the realities the majority of their students will face once in practice.

 

[Psychopathology]

Agree about the insulation nonsense.

My school would like to see us all whole-heartedly support health care reform while pulling down Burger King manager-like salaries in our umpteenth post-graduate fellowship year of pursuing the academic dream at ivory tower university... in some city with a ridiculously high cost of living.

My interpretation of this is that people who have established themselves in academia have no idea that they're about to lead a herd of lemmings over the ledge of a cliff or that the expectation is that physicians should represent exclusively the upper middle class. We learn to be analytical and versed in the literature... but some of us are gonna want to earn a living. Whether we pursue an academic appointment, join a private practice, or become an entrepreneur of sorts, it is important for us to know where the money is coming from and where it is going. There is always someone greedier trying to get their hands in the pie and looking to exploit ignorance. Young doctors are sitting ducks. Nurses, engineers, and other professionals would band together and protect their interests. Too many people in our field have developed a full-on martyr complex. Hollywood portraits us as celebrities, living the good life and pushing around wheelbarrows full of Benjamins. That's not helping.

These notions are a bit exaggerated for the sake of fun and sarcasm, and on one hand I am only qualified to comment on own my experience as someone contemplating the future of my career in light of these powerful, mixed signals. On the other hand, I think it's fair for everyone here to have high standards for how they would like to live and want compensation for their hard work.

 

[Acherona]

IGood point. I think that once we socialize (to which I am resigned) the costs of medical education will go down and no one who would be currently qualified to get into med school will want to. The quality of med students and physicians will decrease and by the time anyone notices or cares it will be too late. The public won't really fight it because, as I've always said, Americans want the absolute best medical care they can get without ever paying anything out of pocket.

Why do people assume socialized medicine requires a pay cut. In Canada, physicians make as much as in the US, with the average specialist salary 330K. They save on overhead, malpractice, have no market competition for patients. Our system as it stands is incredibly inefficient and wasteful. Med school tuition is also much less in Canada. In Europe, where physician salaries are lower, med school is still competitive because the hours are OK. I suspect if salaries went down in the US physicians would no longer tolerate the hours and medicine would become more lifestyle friendly, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[1 Up]

Do you always react like this when you're wrong about something? You're not expected to know everything yet, try to learn from the answer instead of getting pissed off. Good lord.

p.s. I posted this bc your username annoys me

I should probably use you as en example, right?

 

[docscience]

Here is my naive calculations:

Medical School Debt: $160, 000
Internist salary: $150, 000 Post Tax: $100, 000 Monthly Salary: $8333

Finaid Calculator shows to pay off $160, 000 in 10 years you will have monthly payments of $1841.

$8333 - $1841 (loan payment) - $2000 (mortgage on a nice house?) - $1000 (two nice cars?) - $2000 (other expenses, utilities, insurance, food, etc?)

Leaves one with $1492 which is not a lot of money, but still a bit of savings.

I probably underestimated the avg. internist salary??? Perhaps closer to $175K?
Also, med school debts for some are only about $120K-$160K.

What about working when you are a resident?? You can moonlight a night and make $1000 I hear....won't be easy to moonlight and do residency, but doable right? If you can work one night a month in a year...that is $12K a year...about 36K as you do your internal medicine residency leaving you with a paid down med school debt...at least a tiny bit.


Any thoughts? Is this a stupid way to think?

 

[Law2Doc]

Here is my naive calculations:

Medical School Debt: $160, 000
Internist salary: $150, 000 Post Tax: $100, 000 Monthly Salary: $8333

Finaid Calculator shows to pay off $160, 000 in 10 years you will have monthly payments of $1841.

$8333 - $1841 (loan payment) - $2000 (mortgage on a nice house?) - $1000 (two nice cars?) - $2000 (other expenses, utilities, insurance, food, etc?)

Leaves one with $1492 which is not a lot of money, but still a bit of savings.

I probably underestimated the avg. internist salary??? Perhaps closer to $175K?
Also, med school debts for some are only about $120K-$160K.

What about working when you are a resident?? You can moonlight a night and make $1000 I hear....won't be easy to moonlight and do residency, but doable right? If you can work one night a month in a year...that is $12K a year...about 36K as you do your internal medicine residency leaving you with a paid down med school debt...at least a tiny bit.


Any thoughts? Is this a stupid way to think?

Not stupid per se, but perhaps naive was correct. The average debt upon graduating med school is about 150-160k these days. So about half of all folks borrow more than this. Some are borrowing as high as $250k or more. And many with higher interest rates than you are likely contemplating. Interest on that amount may grow during residency, when you won't be paying it - I'm not up on the forbearance statutes as of date, but understand they have changed from years past. The average primary care salary is about $140k, so there are also some folks earning shy of this. So in a worst case scenario, I think you need to assume a salary of about $130k and a debt that has grown to $170k. Your mortgage payment is fine if we first assume you were able to come up with a nice down payment, but probably low if you were able to put down less. If you are renting/buying in certain parts of the country, it may even be too low. Your taxes may be more than a third of your income if you add in the state, local and property taxes. And your "other expenses" will absolutely be higher than you think, particularly if we are contemplating home maintenance, upkeep on two cars, gasoline etc. So yeah, I can easily see how fairly realistic and modest tweaking your figures to someone else's actual situation would move the calculations from a positive $1492/month to a negative grand or so a month.

As for moonlighting, some residencies (quite a few actually) forbid it because it cuts into your 80 hour work week numbers (ie you can put a program into violation if your moonlighting plus residency hours breaks the limitation). I wouldn't count on that income until you are told it's okay.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Here is my naive calculations:

Medical School Debt: $160, 000
Internist salary: $150, 000 Post Tax: $100, 000 Monthly Salary: $8333

Finaid Calculator shows to pay off $160, 000 in 10 years you will have monthly payments of $1841.

$8333 - $1841 (loan payment) - $2000 (mortgage on a nice house?) - $1000 (two nice cars?) - $2000 (other expenses, utilities, insurance, food, etc?)

These might be reasonable in certain parts of the country (for example, a $2,000 mortgage with a 30 year payoff buys you about a $300K home; nice in some areas, small in Phoenix and non-existent in San Francisco, Manhattan, etc.). You've not included malpractice and disability insurance, cost of CME, etc. although if you are on salary rather than FFS then these may be paid for you.

Leaves one with $1492 which is not a lot of money, but still a bit of savings.

I probably underestimated the avg. internist salary??? Perhaps closer to $175K?

Depends. In some places, the average internist makes closer to $100K. Medical salaries are highly variable.

What about working when you are a resident?? You can moonlight a night and make $1000 I hear....won't be easy to moonlight and do residency, but doable right?

Some programs prohibit moonlighting. You cannot do it until you have an unrestricted license and a DEA registration. $1000 for a "night" would be high; a more likely sum would be $1,000 for a 24 hour shift.

If you can work one night a month in a year...that is $12K a year...about 36K as you do your internal medicine residency leaving you with a paid down med school debt...at least a tiny bit.

You won't be able to moonlight as an intern, so you would have, at most, 2 years to moonlight while an IM resident. Remember that moonlighting increases your taxes significantly. So expect to be get $600 or so of that $1,000 you are being paid for the night, or around $950 for the 24 hour shift (it will vary; however, the average reported moonlighting hourly wage here on SDN and elsewhere I've seen is $50/hour). However, yes, it is possible to make a lot of money and use it to pay back the loans while in residency

 

[DrJosephKim]

It's best to do a monthly calculation based on your expenses/budget and expected income.

Also, the cost of housing is a huge issue. If you want to live comfortably where you can use your $ and enjoy life, then pick a place where the cost of housing is less. This is why the south is so popular - high income, low cost of housing.

 

[docscience]

Depends. In some places, the average internist makes closer to $100K. Medical salaries are highly variable.

Really? That is the average salary for an internist in places? All I can say is wow! I would never be able to pay off my loans with that!

However...if you look at average hospitalist salaries they are about $150-175K.
Am I way off? You can make that after 3 years of residency.

Also, another thought...financially speaking, would it be better:

1) to have 160K in debt, do a residency for 3 years (IM) and start making money to ultimately make 150K or so (OR)

2) to have 160K in debt, do a specialty residency (for example anesthesiology/optho) for 4/5+ years and end up making $200-250K (is that an average figure for those specialties?)

I mean...it is all about what you want out of life, how much you enjoy the specialty, etc.

I have no idea how future pediatricians will pay their med school loans back!!!????

 

[docscience]

After reading through my post, it is obvious that the 2nd option would be better.

Perhaps anesthesiology and ophthalmology weren't the best residencies to pick....what about general surgery? You have to do a residency for 5 years at least and then make $250K or so....do consider the added interest of his/her loans.

I guess I want to make money soon...even the 40K we get as residents would be nice in the mind of this M2....I hate having to know that I will be deep in debt when I graduate...very very very deep in debt.
The cycle of the rich getting richer continues as students with rich parents providing them support.

I can in one sense see why some would consider specializing for the money now....but on the other hand...what about people like me? People that want to graduate and start paying off some loans...isn't that a push towards primary care?

Someone tell me that picking a residency will get easier....that I won't have to stress about so many variables...money, residency training length, etc. etc.

 

[Winged Scapula]

As I noted above, medical salaries vary WILDLY by specialty, area of the country (as noted above, salaries in less geographically desirable areas are higher and the COL lower). You will likely make more than $100K as an internist; my point was that you shouldn't count on making the "average". Salary surveys are notoriously inaccurate, are based on physicians who have been in practice for several years and tend not to include those at the lower end of the scale. But yes, the average is around $150K in the bigger cities according to these surveys. YMMV.

AAMC produces a book which lists the average academic salaries by specialty and region of the country; this is probably a lot more accurate and since most of this information is privy to the public, easier to get than an average salary for a physician working in private practice.

Which route you take should depend on what you are interested in. Since your debt will be the same regardless (save for some interest accumulation in the longer residencies), you should focus on specializing in something that interests you rather than what pays the most. The sad fact is that the huge burden of student loans does tend to force people into fields that they might not really enjoy or to take jobs which pay more but aren't right for them.

 

[docscience]

AAMC produces a book which lists the average academic salaries by specialty and region of the country; this is probably a lot more accurate and since most of this information is privy to the public, easier to get than an average salary for a physician working in private practice.

Is there a link? Where can I find this book?

Thanks for the perspective Winged Scapula...makes a lot of sense.
And Law2Doc said it right too...I guess one should underestimate salary potential and overestimate loan costs.

I shadowed a private practice internist and he said internists could expect to pull about "125-160K" This is in the southwest.
He had a great lifestyle...I worked with him on a wednesday and saw 5 patients between 8 AM and 12 PM. He had the rest of the day off and left to go play some tennis.

I suppose the compensation for a private internist is also low because of this somewhat liberal work schedule? Though he said he did see a few patients over the weekend.

I just can't imagine myself doing 3 years of IM and then another 3 years doing a subspecialty. 6 years with a 160K loan accruing interest?? I don't think I could convince myself to do something like that. However, I know life throws curveballs and perhaps my priorities will be different in the future.

 

[Law2Doc]

I just can't imagine myself doing 3 years of IM and then another 3 years doing a subspecialty. 6 years with a 160K loan accruing interest?? I don't think I could convince myself to do something like that. However, I know life throws curveballs and perhaps my priorities will be different in the future.

Well, here's the thing, you are going to be working at whatever you choose for a long long time. And spending a good percentage of your awake life on it. so you need to really like it. No point getting a job you don't really like just because it services your loans. The 9 to 5 crowd hate their jobs and live for the weekend. Folks who get into med school had more choices, and should find a higher level of fulfillment. Unlike most Americans you actually have real choices in your career, you aren't stuck pumping gas or stocking shelves. You proved yourself countless times on this road, devoted more money and more years to the path. So for gosh sakes end up with something great after this long arduous journey, not just settle for something that is tolerable but makes your bottom line perhaps a bit higher but is unfulfilling. You only get one shot at life, and it isn't something just to be endured, it is to be enjoyed, or at least find it interesting much of the time.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Is there a link? Where can I find this book?

https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...1&cftoken=417F97CD-651D-4BBB-8398478D8C04BA2A

Clearly this is for academic faculty; it does not include fellowship training (which I was told should increase your earnings by 20-30%) or private practice salaries.

I shadowed a private practice internist and he said internists could expect to pull about "125-160K" This is in the southwest.
He had a great lifestyle...I worked with him on a wednesday and saw 5 patients between 8 AM and 12 PM. He had the rest of the day off and left to go play some tennis.

I suppose the compensation for a private internist is also low because of this somewhat liberal work schedule? Though he said he did see a few patients over the weekend.

"Somewhat liberal"?

I'll assume that was either a routinely scheduled day off or an anomaly. Most internists see MANY more patients in a day, especially in private practice. You could not survive on seeing 10 patients per day unless they were private pay or you were doing procedures, given the reimbursement for office visits. A typical office visit is 10-15 minutes, longer for a new patient.

Frankly, if that is his typical production (which I'm sure it isn't), he's lucky he doesn't make *less*.

I just can't imagine myself doing 3 years of IM and then another 3 years doing a subspecialty. 6 years with a 160K loan accruing interest?? I don't think I could convince myself to do something like that. However, I know life throws curveballs and perhaps my priorities will be different in the future.

But if you are doing a specialty fellowship, you will be making more than an internist, especially if you choose Cards or Gastro, procedure based specialties. Are you confusing the average salaries for internists with the average salary for an internal medical subspecialty?

 

[sirus_virus]

Notice how NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is addressing the massive white elephant in the room??

Why have higher education especially professional school costs outpaced ALL ECONOMIC INDICATORS including supposed spiraling healthcare costs at such an obscene rate for the last 10-20 years?

Why are med schools getting away with charging 50K/year to even precipitate this crisis to begin with??
Higher education is becoming a lucrative scam that will go down in American History as the greatest conspiracy ever perpetrated on US citizens. Funny only now is the big name media like WSJ, Forbes, Money etc picking up on this.

Sorry for the bolds but this is true, and with the whole lending crisis thing going down, someone ought to start dragging some of these thieves out and asking some real questions. Instutitions of higher education are openly defrauding Americans, and professional schools are the gang leaders.

 

[igottaquestion]

Just to reiterate what yayadude said, you have to take away your third (or 35% or whatever) for taxes (federal, state and local) before you take out the 25k in loans. Meaning you are paying taxes on the money you are going to use to pay student loans. So you aren't left with 80k after you take out a third, you are left with 75k, or as the above poster suggested 70k if the tax rate is high. These student loans aren't tax free amounts. You might get a deduction for some of the interest if your salary doesn't exceed a certain amount (which it probably does), but generally, you pay taxes on the money you are going to pay the debt with.

Which I guess is still a fine salary if, as mentioned, you live in small town Kansas. But not a whole lot if you are trying to live in SF or a similar high cost of living location, paying a mortgage, have a car loan, etc. A lot of the folks who had prior careers were earning more than this and still had a fairly modest lifestyle. You will pay all your bills for necessities, but still have to live on a tight budget for anything else. Which after a decade of med school and training isn't really doing that well.

I've gotta say that if your debt is $300k and the average interest you are paying is over 7%, it is going to have a huge impact on your lifestyle. But if a particular specialty is what you want to do, you will make it work by doing without certain things. I think focusing on "what salary will I need" is nonproductive because you have to pick what you want to do and make it work, not pick something based on servicing debt. If that were the point, you could be $300k ahead from day one by just foregoing medicine in the first place.

. . . or find a balance between the two. if someone with 300k debt loved peds but really liked derm, i think they might regret not making that a tough choice.

 

[medicinesux]

It's been almost two years since I left my initial comment in this thread. I have been preaching ever since how the student loan crisis is shaping up to be one of the most catastrophic financial disasters to lay assault on this country. And it is. Education in America has been hijacked by a cartel of banking thugs and administrative wolves cloaked in sheepskin all in cahoots with the US govt. Though the media has SLOWLY been picking up on this issue, our govt continues to sleep behind the wheel (surprising?). I have done quite a bit of research on this very topic and have quite frankly been blown away by all the disgusting corruption and greed that goes on behind the curtain. Everything from former for profit college lobbyists now working at the Dept of Education to recruiters drumming up warm bodies at homeless shelters to the University of Phoenix's impressive 4% graduation rate for online students is enough to make my head spin in utter disbelief.
Today in France the youth are protesting in droves after the govt proposed raising the retirement age from 60 to 62. I can only imagine how they would react to our student loan situation! We should be in the streets going Ape**** over this. Check out the graph below and see for yourself how this bubble is inflating beyond belief. It makes the recent housing bubble seem like a mere blip!

 

[JackADeli]

...If only we could think of another industry where having having someone besides the person getting the benefit paying the costs...

...I think that once we socialize (to which I am resigned) the costs of medical education will go down and no one who would be currently qualified to get into med school will want to...

It really does come down to what socialization has been doing. Through "compassion" or other reasoning, we have seperated the consumer, i.e. student, from the costs of education either entirely or through delay in payment, i.e. deferrments. Now, almost anyone can "pay for college". The universities accross the country can, without direct collusion amongst themselves increase the costs. Then the "average" costs are increased and the amounts you can receive from federal/tax payer funds is increased. Of course, with this funded education, universities can now be places of high school remediation.....

Classes are not even being taught by professors but rather their grad students.... that get a mix of additional federal/tax payer funding loans and federal/tax payer grants. The system is for all intense purpose inefficient and socialized with the outcomes as seen for decades in other socialized nations. Costs rises without appreciable increase in quality.

The fact that it is generally socialized is why the costs are going up. Schools do not have to compete in a market place. Very few students consider the costs in their decision on school but rather the financial aid package they will get to cover the costs.

 

[notinkansas]

Yes but things that Democrat reformists like Ted Kennedy dream about..offering universal health care on demand...are only possible when education is essentially completely FREE like it is in the EU.

One big flaw with this premise is that there is no such thing as "free". Somebody pays for "free" health care, "free" education. In the EU, somebody pays for the mandated time off employees have, for the extended maternity leave, and for all the "benefits" the progressives are trying to sell the American people. The somebody that pays is the taxpayer. And since an increasing number of people don't pay any income taxes at all, while demanding that the "rich" pay their "fair share" the burden of funding all the "free" goodies falls on a smaller population of producers. If the government can't raise enough tax money, they simply print more, causing inflation and taking away all of our purchasing power.

This is why most of the EU is much closer to being bankrupt that the US is. And the US taxpayers also get the honor of bailing out other bankrupt nations, as we are the single largest contributor to the IMF.

A wise woman once said, "The problem with socialism is that you run out of rich people to tax"

 

[NightOwlPM]

This is an important issue. It is highly unlikely this will accomplish anything but it does not need to become a liberals vs conservatives thread.

Someone tell me that picking a residency will get easier....that I won't have to stress about so many variables...money, residency training length, etc. etc.

That would be lying. Residencies are getting more competitive with no end in sight.

 

[JackADeli]

...A wise woman once said, "The problem with socialism is that you run out of rich people to tax"

I thought it was more like..."The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money to spend".

 

[jdwmont]

What are your thoughts on Income Based Repayment? I am one of these students everyone is talking about, and am basically banking on this program to make a career in medicine a realistic endeavor. 10yrs in a nonprofit=debt paid off.

Opinions?

 

[deleted109597]

What are your thoughts on Income Based Repayment? I am one of these students everyone is talking about, and am basically banking on this program to make a career in medicine a realistic endeavor. 10yrs in a nonprofit=debt paid off.

Opinions?

Same as mil-med. The person paying your stuff generally gets to tell you what to do. If you enjoy it (and the lower patient load), great. Otherwise, generally you'll earn more at a real salary over those 10 years than the loan payoff amount. The gap is smaller in primary care though.

 

[WhyMD]

------
http://noolmusic.com/google_videos/how_to_keep_100_of_your_earnings.php

 

[odieoh]

Our financial problem and that of all US citizens can be solved.
Any intelligent US citizen should investigate this:

http://noolmusic.com/google_videos/how_to_keep_100_of_your_earnings.php

And quickly realize its a fasttrack to prison.

Yes its true employers are not absolutely REQUIRED to withhold from your paycheck. That does not mean you are exempt from paying taxes, it just means come April you better have that money squirreled away somewhere. This guy makes it sound like not witholding=not needing to pay taxes.

 

[WhyMD]

And quickly realize its a fasttrack to prison.

Yes its true employers are not absolutely REQUIRED to withhold from your paycheck. That does not mean you are exempt from paying taxes, it just means come April you better have that money squirreled away somewhere. This guy makes it sound like not witholding=not needing to pay taxes.

You didn't watch the whole thing, did you? Watch till the end and do some historical research before repeating what you've been brainwashed into fear. Do a little google research as to how privately owned Federal reserve bank came to own the US in 1913 and began collecting fraudulent "federal income tax" which is unconstitutional and not even a Congress passed law even today. Did you know that federal income tax is not spent on any of the national services or infrastructures? Then where is all that money going each year? And why is a group of privately owned bank (by foreign families) calling themselves "central bank" or "federal reserve" have the right to collect 35% of all citizens' hard earned money? Find out. It's your duty if you consider yourself few of the intelligent US citizens.

Paying tax to the state which is used for the public services is our duty. Paying false tax to foreign banking familes sheerly out of fear is stupidity plus slavery.

 

[odieoh]

You can argue it all you like, bottom line is people who end up trying to fight federal income tax in court end up paying heavy fines or going to prison 99.99% of the time. I don't care if its legal/illegal, I care what the consequences of not paying are and as of right now the consequences are steep, especially for a highly paid professional. Going down that road leads to pain and frustration, much less than just ponying up the tax money. Not to mention the fact that some taxation is necessary, I don't agree with big government, but I think you have to admit SOME government is necessary, and it has to be funded somehow.

 

[WhyMD]

-----

 

[WhyMD]

Below is a good place to start in the spirit of the Independence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USGSOViaulc&feature=related

 

[odieoh]

You surprise me. Despite pointing out that "federal reserve" is no more federal than Federal express and that it's owned by private banking families of Europe, you continue to insist it's equal to the government. Also was it not pointed out that none of the money handed over to the central bank is spent neither on public service or government spending?

That's understandable that you are afraid. Physicians tend to come from the stock of people who are afraid of any trouble and do what they are told. But not everyone. If you are not capable of acting out of knowledge, at least you can inform yourself to better understand the world you live in and pass the info to inform more citizens. The more people come to understand the truth, the greater chance to rise against the tyranny. And it helps if more thinking citizens learn of this.

For a starter into your research:

In the context of July the Fourth, know that the reason for Independence war by our forefathers was precisely the control of money. The British "central bank" owned by Rothchilds family, which effectively controlled Britain and pretty much all of Europe, wanted to eat the US colonies as well since they noticed the booming prosperity here. So it demaned that the colonies use the money printed by the British central bank. The forefathers knew exactly what would happen if they accepted the demand. At that time money was minted by the US government. So they rightly refused to death by declaring war for they did not want to be indentured servants. That's why they specifically spelled out in the Constitution that only the US government has the power to print money backed by gold. The banking family never gave up and finally succeeded in 1913 by setting up spineless Roovelt (who bitterly lamented later) and unlawfully establishing "Central Bank" on Christmas eve when most congressional members were visiting home. Since then the power to print money was relegated to the bank and thus began the servitude in the name of "income tax" which is unconstitutional and the artificial expansion and contraction of dollar thus creating the controlled rise and fall of economy, each time the ruling families getting doubly owning while the middle class disappear. The federal income tax that we pay is for the compounded interests charged by the Central bank for printing of money which was previously done by the government for free.

Knowing well the long bitter fights with numerous forefathers and few intelligent US presidents like Thomas Jefferson and Lincoln both of which defended fiercely against Central bank and defended greenback, the bank set up the IRS to instill fear into citizens and extract their belongings by force. After a century of this practice, most people believe without question that we are to pay federal income tax while not knowing where any of that money is going. The banking family declared that their "federal reserve" shall be the ONLY institution in the US that will never be audited. Have you wondered why that is? It's very obvious now, isn't it?

I gave you enough to start on your own historical research. On the way you will come to understand a lot of things both past and present, such as WWI, WWII, the Great Depression (which came just few years after Central bank take over of the US), etc. Again, you may not do anything about it, but it's very enlightening to know what really happened. You will be able to explain it to your children, the future of this once great nation. Already a strong movement is rising. One example is the recent push to Audit the federal reserve for the first time. The Bank families will obviously do everything in their power to prevent this or bribe/blackmail the ones auditing because they know fully well the fury of the Americans that will tear their ruling family apart once they find out that the money went into their own pockets.

Coming back to the forum's discussion, if federal income tax is rightly abolished, we may do well enough with what we earn today.

I may erase this and the above posting in case I get traced. I ask that you also erase the quoted portion of my posting after 2-3 days. I want to fight as a practicing doctor not as a medical student that got eliminated mysteriously.

thanks.

Conspiracy theorize much? It's almost pointless to argue this, first of all because I get the feeling neither of us has any chance of budging in our opinion, second of all the end of your post exhibits some pretty paranoid irrational fears.

But one thing I would like you to answer, where should the government get the money it needs to pay for military/infrastructure/etc etc. I'm not saying I agree with the way the government spends its money, just pointing out that it does need funding.

 

[odieoh]

Oh and by the way, Dick Simkanin, the owner of the plastics company shown in the video, who "freed" his company and employees from taxes? Now in prison, convicted of 29 of 31 counts of tax related violations. I don't know if it was right or wrong, legal or illegal, but I know thats what happens if you don't pay the tax man.

 

[WhyMD]

To answer: money for infrastructure all come from sale taxes and other legitimate taxes like gas. And this is answered in the linked video above. This tells me you didn't watch the whole thing.

Wait, are you saying Federal reserve is a part of federal government and that the income tax we pay is actually used for national spending? Has Federal reserve been audited? There is no "opinions" in this but only facts. It's either this or that. What I'm saying is that those curious should look into the facts. No place for opinions here and thus no need of "arguing." All we should look at are historical facts. We cannot "argue" whether a rock is a rock; it's either a rock or it's not a rock. Is Federal reserve owned by the federal government or is it a privately owned bank?

Why don't you scroll forward and watch from the middle? We all know too well what the IRS does and there is no news in that. The question is why are they so gang-like in extorting money. It only takes few hours to look into. No one is begging here. If you are not interested, that's your decision. Paranoid label? Is that the best you can do?

I already mentioned that it's understandable that you are afraid of the consequence of acting out of correct knowledge. But are you not even curious to find out what happened given all the historical facts instead of brushing it all off as "conspiracy" crap. I guess that's also understandable. There is nothing wrong with just worrying about you and your family's well-being and focusing on being a good physician. That's perfectly fine as well. I'm not criticizing you, so no need to get confrontational here. All I'm saying is curious people should look into this and investigate a little on their own. I certainly have benefited greatly in doing so.

Imagine if 35% of the US citizens rightfully refuse to pay federal income tax until the federal reserve bank is audited. That will be the beginning of the end of our servitude. Remember, they are few and we are many. Yes they have power and weapons, but their own henchmen have their families who belong to commoners.

Start with this 10min quick early US history if you don't have much time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USGSOViaulc&feature=related

Ok, time to do some medical studying.

 

[odieoh]

To answer: money for infrastructure all come from sale taxes and other legitimate taxes like gas.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USGSOViaulc&feature=related

No it doesn't. There is no Federal sales tax. Many states have sales tax and many infrastructure projects are indeed funded by state sales and income tax. But the Federal government also pays for a large number of infrastructure projects. Not to mention the military. The military is a HUGE expense, where does the money for that come from? Not from state sales tax. Sales tax and tax on gas are very small in comparison to federal income tax. Maybe the new NY tax on cigarettes will be able to fund obamacare though.

 

[JackADeli]

To answer: money for infrastructure all come from sale taxes and other legitimate taxes like gas. And this is answered in the linked video above. This tells me you didn't watch the whole thing.

Wait, are you saying Federal reserve is a part of federal government and that the income tax we pay is actually used for national spending? Has Federal reserve been audited? There is no "opinions" in this but only facts. It's either this or that. What I'm saying is that those curious should look into the facts. No place for opinions here and thus no need of "arguing." All we should look at are historical facts. We cannot "argue" whether a rock is a rock; it's either a rock or it's not a rock. Is Federal reserve owned by the federal government or is it a privately owned bank?

Why don't you scroll forward and watch from the middle? We all know too well what the IRS does and there is no news in that. The question is why are they so gang-like in extorting money. It only takes few hours to look into. No one is begging here. If you are not interested, that's your decision. Paranoid label? Is that the best you can do?

I already mentioned that it's understandable that you are afraid of the consequence of acting out of correct knowledge. But are you not even curious to find out what happened given all the historical facts instead of brushing it all off as "conspiracy" crap. I guess that's also understandable. There is nothing wrong with just worrying about you and your family's well-being and focusing on being a good physician. That's perfectly fine as well. I'm not criticizing you, so no need to get confrontational here. All I'm saying is curious people should look into this and investigate a little on their own. I certainly have benefited greatly in doing so.

Imagine if 35% of the US citizens rightfully refuse to pay federal income tax until the federal reserve bank is audited. That will be the beginning of the end of our servitude. Remember, they are few and we are many. Yes they have power and weapons, but their own henchmen have their families who belong to commoners.

Start with this 10min quick early US history if you don't have much time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USGSOViaulc&feature=related

Ok, time to do some medical studying.

Just figured I would help capture the discussion.... before it becomes incoherent with additional delated posts.

 

[WhyMD]

No it doesn't. There is no Federal sales tax. Many states have sales tax and many infrastructure projects are indeed funded by state sales and income tax. But the Federal government also pays for a large number of infrastructure projects. Not to mention the military. The military is a HUGE expense, where does the money for that come from? Not from state sales tax. Sales tax and tax on gas are very small in comparison to federal income tax. Maybe the new NY tax on cigarettes will be able to fund obamacare though.

Did you watch the second half of the video or no? By the way, there are several other well done videos on this subject available in google. I personally didn't like the guy that made the video but I felt the people interviewed were pretty thorough. But if you look around a bit, there are better materials.

If indeed the vast amount of money we pay each year to this Central Bank is used for the nation, there won't be money problem with social security, medicare, medicaid, educations etc. Remember, you don't need to act. Just knowing the facts help, if not for curiosity alone. I got into this subject while trying to understand the whole Banking system and the seemingly artificial ups and downs of economy which the US didn't have when the US government printed money and not the bank.

If you do some research, you will also come to understand who actually controls the military and why seemingly senseless wars. Just watch the short 10min youtube linked above to get a glimpse. Only after doing some research you decide if this is all just imagined conspiracy paranoia or not.

Sorry for the deletions, but all of my posting are quoted and, thus, not lost if you feel this is interesting enough to peek your investigative mind.

Good thing I have some free time now to type this much.

 

[JackADeli]

did you watch the second half of the video or no? By the way, there are several other well done videos on this subject available in google. I personally didn't like the guy that made the video but i felt the people interviewed were pretty thorough. But if you look around a bit, there are better materials.

If indeed the vast amount of money we pay each year to this central bank is used for the nation, there won't be money problem with social security, medicare, medicaid, educations etc. Remember, you don't need to act. Just knowing the facts help, if not for curiosity alone. I got into this subject while trying to understand the whole banking system and the seemingly artificial ups and downs of economy which the us didn't have when the us government printed money and not the bank.

If you do some research, you will also come to understand who actually controls the military and why seemingly senseless wars. Just watch the short 10min youtube linked above to get a glimpse. Only after doing some research you decide if this is all just imagined conspiracy paranoia or not.

Sorry for the deletions, but all of my posting are quoted and, thus, not lost if you feel this is interesting enough to peek your investigative mind.

Good thing i have some free time now to type this much.

ok

 

[MJB]

I've been strongly considering the primary care route and trying to utilize the NHSC Loan Repayment program. Does anyone have any experience with that program?

It seems like a decent deal, considering I don't have much, if any, desire to live in what many on here seem to think are "great locations"...like NYC, Boston, or San Fran.

 

[smq123]

I've been strongly considering the primary care route and trying to utilize the NHSC Loan Repayment program. Does anyone have any experience with that program?

It seems like a decent deal, considering I don't have much, if any, desire to live in what many on here seem to think are "great locations"...like NYC, Boston, or San Fran.

The LRP is actually, at least as it stands now, not a bad deal. The restrictions on where you can practice are more relaxed than they are for people who accept the scholarship. And, of course, you sign up after residency, so there are no restrictions on which specialties you can apply for out of med school (peds, IM, FP, OB, psych, Med-Peds). The rumor is that Obama will be putting more money towards the LRP, and less towards the scholarship.

Actually, there *are* sites in NYC, Boston, and San Francisco that qualify for the LRP, if those sites were to ever interest you one day.

How attractive the LRP looks to you partly depends on how much you owe. It's $50,000 for the first 2 years of service, I think. (Or 4 years, if you work part time.)

 

[UserNameNeeded]

Are those LRP sites in major urban areas crime-ridden and dangerous parts of town?

 

[MJB]

Are those LRP sites in major urban areas crime-ridden and dangerous parts of town?

Usually, if they are urban, they are health dept./inner city clinic type situations.

 

[jdwmont]

So, the sky is not falling after all.

 

[UserNameNeeded]

How is it not?

Most of these programs are running out of their very limited government funding and are extremely competitive as a result, despite there being a much-hyped primary care physician "shortage."

 

[MJB]

How is it not?

Most of these programs are running out of their very limited government funding and are extremely competitive as a result, despite there being a much-hyped primary care physician "shortage."

Exactly.

The fact that you can get "help" to pay off these massive amounts of debt does not change the fact that the costs are getting out of hand...and have been for some time.

 

[jdwmont]

How is it not?

Most of these programs are running out of their very limited government funding and are extremely competitive as a result, despite there being a much-hyped primary care physician "shortage."

I don't know about that. NHSC scholarships are hard to come by, but loan repayer positions are quite numerous. IBR seems to be ramping up. Granted, the US economy is anything but stable and those programs may not necessarily be around when we need them. However, I am not about to worry my life away.

Don't get me wrong though, I still think it is all quite criminal...