Saba University

[JP17]

So I'm thinking about applying to Saba University School of Medicine and would like to know the pros and cons from the perspective of current and alumni of the school. How was the loan/financial aid process? How was the education? Matching experience and life on the island in general. Any information positive or negative will help.

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[Psai]

This belongs in the premed section

 

[Goro]

So you really like the idea of being unemployed and deeply in debt?

So I'm thinking about applying to Saba University School of Medicine and would like to know the pros and cons from the perspective of current and alumni of the school. How was the loan/financial aid process? How was the education? Matching experience and life on the island in general. Any information positive or negative will help.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Moving to the Caribbean Forum

 

[gyngyn]

Pros: You can get in.
Cons: Expensive considering how very poorly regarded it is by PD's.

 

[W19]

So you really like the idea of being unemployed and deeply in debt?

There are many Carib students who end up doing fine, but I would advise OP to try to get into a DO school first. Use the Caribbean as a last resort if working as a physician is the ONLY thing you can see yourself doing. 250k+ is too much money to gamble with!

 

[gyngyn]

There are many Carib students who end up doing fine, but I would advise OP to try to get into a DO school first. Use the Caribbean as a last resort if working as a physician is the ONLY thing you can see yourself doing. 250k+ is too much money to gamble with!

They are not the majority and everybody has to re-pay the loans...
Even at Saba (one of the "better" programs), only 45 US IMG's matched in a desired residency in 2014. Imagine what that will look like in 4 to 5 years with over 30 new US medical schools pumping out additional grads...

 

[deleted731525]

They are not the majority and everybody has to re-pay the loans...
Even at Saba (one of the "better" programs), only 45 US IMG's matched in a desired residency in 2014. Imagine what that will look like in 4 to 5 years with over 30 new US medical schools pumping out additional grads...

Is this accurate or an exaggeration? Will there really be 30 more graduating classes in 2020 than there were in 2016?

 

[gyngyn]

Is this accurate or an exaggeration? Will there really be 30 more graduating classes in 2020 than there were in 2016?

When one includes DO and MD, this is an accurate number of the increase in graduating classes in the last decade. It does not even include schools projected to open. There are many.

 

[the argus]

They are not the majority and everybody has to re-pay the loans...
Even at Saba (one of the "better" programs), only 45 US IMG's matched in a desired residency in 2014. Imagine what that will look like in 4 to 5 years with over 30 new US medical schools pumping out additional grads...

Is this accurate or an exaggeration? Will there really be 30 more graduating classes in 2020 than there were in 2016?

This, of course, is a gross exaggeration and just blatant lie. Not surprising considering the source.

There will be nowhere near 30 new graduating classes in 2020 compared to 2016.

The best estimates put the number of IMGs getting positions at ~4500 in 2024 compared to >6500 in 2016.

 

[gyngyn]

This, of course, is a gross exaggeration. Not surprising considering the source.

There will be nowhere near 30 new graduating classes in 2020 compared to 2016.

There best estimates put the number of IMGs getting positions at ~4500 in 2024 compared to >6500 in 2016.

OP wants to know what to expect. Historical norms are changing. More than 30 US schools have opened in the last decade. Many are scheduled to open. I did not draw a 4 year window, you did.

 

[the argus]

OP wants to know what to expect. Historical norms are changing. More than 30 US schools have opened in the last decade. Many are scheduled to open. I did not draw a 4 year window, you did.

You didn't draw a 4 year window huh?

They are not the majority and everybody has to re-pay the loans...
Even at Saba (one of the "better" programs), only 45 US IMG's matched in a desired residency in 2014. Imagine what that will look like in 4 to 5 years with over 30 new US medical schools pumping out additional grads...

How much you drinking these days? I realize it's Saturday and the beginning of spring and all, but seriously, try to keep it together.

 

[gyngyn]

You didn't draw a 4 year window huh?

How much you drinking these days? I realize it's Saturday and the beginning of spring and all, but seriously, try to keep it together.

The end point I drew was based on OP's projected graduation date. The trend is based on the dramatic uptick in the opening of US MD and DO schools. Did you read the whole thread? There is no need for incivility.

 

[deleted274002]

 

[the argus]

The end point I drew was based on OP's projected graduation date. The trend is based on the dramatic uptick in the opening of US MD and DO schools. Did you read the whole thread? There is no need for incivility.

There's also no need for lying and consistently posting misleading information.

 

[Goro]

Off the top of my head:

ARCOM (DO)
NYITCOM-AR (DO)
RVU-UT (DO)
UIW in San Antonio (DO)
WSU (WA)
CUNY Med
Kaiser-SoCal
Arrowhead-SoCal
LUCOM (DO)
BCOM (DO)
Touro-Middletown (DO)
Mayo-AZ
UNLV
IUSM-Evansville
TCU (Ft Worth)
Seton Hall
TCMC
Va Tech
CNU

So with the ACGME/AOA merger, and these new schools, that sucking sound you hear is yet more Carib diploma mill grads (at least 2000) not getting residencies.

Cue Argus to come in sputtering about NRMP.

Is this accurate or an exaggeration? Will there really be 30 more graduating classes in 2020 than there were in 2016?

 

[Sardinia]

Holy crap. More residency positions pls.

 

[gyngyn]

There's also no need for lying and consistently posting misleading information.

I said "pumping out grads," not opening! New schools take years to change Match outcomes. The US medical school openings of the last decade are only now beginning to have that effect. It is an effect that historic norms do not reflect. It is definitely a "con" that relates to one of OP's queries.

 

[Taddy Mason]

So I'm thinking about applying to Saba University School of Medicine and would like to know the pros and cons from the perspective of current and alumni of the school. How was the loan/financial aid process? How was the education? Matching experience and life on the island in general. Any information positive or negative will help.

I know 2 people that choose to attend Saba. I don't know if this is still the case or if there were some circumstances I'm not aware of, but one was required to pay her entire first year tuition in full at the beginning of 1st year (this was 7 years ago fyi, so things could be different). She was dismissed Oct/Nov of first year and none of what she paid in advance was refundable. The other person I know was also dismissed during first year (she had been dismissed during 1st year from a US school the year prior for academic reasons). She had absolutely nothing positive to say about her experience there.

 

[atomi]

So I'm thinking about applying to Saba University School of Medicine and would like to know the pros and cons from the perspective of current and alumni of the school. How was the loan/financial aid process? How was the education? Matching experience and life on the island in general. Any information positive or negative will help.

Pros: The island is warm
Cons: The air will be a bit cooler once you run out of money to set on fire

 

[Sardinia]

My my looking at the finances of Saba, along with MUA Nevis and St. Matthews, I see rather shaky capital backing http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/saba-university.1195512/#post-17670228. From residency placement (not match) total placement, we are looking at less than 50% and we dont have an attrition rate for those who never make it thru. Therefore the "success rate" (starting medical school, graduating and getting any residency) is likely under 40%. This is significantly worse. That AUC and Ross (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/us-md-for-320k-or-img-for-100k.1130221/page-2#post-16443874). I used to recommend these schools a decade or more ago. I cant anymore with the risk of not getting a slot for all that debt

Anecdotally speaking SABA's position is even worse than the assessment you just made on the situation.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

So I'm thinking about applying to Saba University School of Medicine and would like to know the pros and cons from the perspective of current and alumni of the school. How was the loan/financial aid process? How was the education? Matching experience and life on the island in general. Any information positive or negative will help.

OP I am going to give you some advice from someone who was considering the caribbean, exhaust all options. You would be surprised what you are capable of when you look and say "Its US med school or none at all." I want to go into oncology, and that would require an IM residency. Not a bad outlook coming from a respectable Caribbean school. However, what happens if while in school I decide I want to do surgery, dermatology, etc? I have closed the door on those options. I think you need to seriously consider sitting down, looking at options, and finally take the MCAT once more. The MCAT as much as the SAT, ACT, and all other standardized tests determine if you get into your dream school or a community college.

This is coming from an ORM who has been working to try and get into med school for 2 years post grad

 

[Sardinia]

@gonnif @Goro My view on Saba is that they are known for being the back up school for Ross students. And I don't mean back up in the conventional sense that you don't get accepted into Ross, then you pursue Saba. I mean "back up" as in, "I failed Ross, time for Saba."

 

[Goro]

Frying pan into fire, you mean!

@gonnif @Goro My view on Saba is that they are known for being the back up school for Ross students. And I don't mean back up in the conventional sense that you don't get accepted into Ross, then you pursue Saba. I mean "back up" as in, "I failed Ross, time for Saba."

 

[deleted731525]

@gonnif @Goro My view on Saba is that they are known for being the back up school for Ross students. And I don't mean back up in the conventional sense that you don't get accepted into Ross, then you pursue Saba. I mean "back up" as in, "I failed Ross, time for Saba."

I was under the impression that the school was popular with Canadians for some reason.

 

[Skip Intro]

Even at Saba (one of the "better" programs), only 45 US IMG's matched in a desired residency in 2014.

What is a "desired" residency?

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

This is good advice... unless you are over the age of 30.

... as well as the specific reasons I mentioned in this thread, Saba has gone down hill badly since the take over in 2008. So its previous successful reputation is no longer applicable. Its "success rate" (starting class to graduation to any residency slot) can be accurately estimated at under 40%. That is too high a risk for me to recommend anymore

http://www.saba.edu/images/2016_Saba_Residency.pdf

So, if you look at that list, you are saying that the class that started in 2012 suffered from lack of a "successful reputation"? And, you're also suggesting that 60% of the students that start their education don't finish?

I tabulated their placements for 2016 from that link into the following table:

Anesthesiology - 10
Emergency Medicine - 4
Family Medicine - 54
Gen Surg - 2
Internal Medicine - 63
Neurology - 1
OB/Gyn - 1
Pathology - 5
Pediatrics - 5
PM&R - 1
Prelim Medicine - 7
Prelim Surg - 3
Psychiatry - 4
Radiology - 6
Transitional -4
Grand Total: 170

So, you are saying that they enrolled at least 425 students ("less than 40%" success rate) to get those 170 placements?

Just curious where you're getting your information from.

-Skip

 

[gyngyn]

What is a "desired" residency?

-Skip

"For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice."
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[Bluejay87]

I did not go to Saba, but I can comment a little on the island. It is absolutely gorgeous and has amazing hiking opportunities. It is also tiny in both physical size and population and is a bit isolated, meaning that there isn't much else to do and you sometimes have to deal with the annoyance of the grocery store being out of bread until next Tuesday, etc. Getting there is a bit of an adventure as well - either a plane ride that involves landing on the shortest commercial runway in the world or a terrifying hour on a little boat from Sint Maarten. However, the people are very nice and the crime rate is significantly lower than most of the Caribbean. So, pros and cons.

As far as the school, I'm no expert but I share my opinion as an AUC grad who has had a fair amount of interaction with students/graduates from the US and the major Caribbean schools:

US MD > DO > SGU = AUC > Ross > Saba > AUA

Something like 65% of people who start at AUC make it to residency (and I think Ross and SGU are similar), so if Saba's success rate is really only 40% as mentioned above, that's a pretty substantial difference.

 

[Goro]

Any MD or DO schools with a rate this low would be shut down my LCME or COCA and sued.


Something like 65% of people who start at AUC make it to residency (and I think Ross and SGU are similar), so if Saba's success rate is really only 40% as mentioned above, that's a pretty substantial difference.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bluejay87]

Any MD or DO schools with a rate this low would be shut down my LCME or COCA and sued..

[/QUOTE]

Hence why going to the Caribbean is a huge risk, even if you are at one of the best available options.

 

[Skip Intro]

"For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice."
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

It says "match to the specialty of the applicant's first-ranked program". That doesn't mean matched into their first-ranked program. For example, I only ranked anesthesia programs, and I matched into my second choice. Therefore, I was successful.

Furthermore, from the same link you quote:

In general, applicants are more likely to be successful if they rank more programs in their desired specialty.

Some general observations apply to all of the specialties in this report. IMG applicants who are successful in matching to
their preferred specialty are more likely to:
·rank more programs within their preferred specialty
·have higher USMLE scores
·have fewer attempts at ECFMG certification examinations
·be U.S. citizens
·speak English as a native language
·have obtained ECFMG certification closer to the Match year (2013)
·have graduated from medical school closer to the Match year (2013)

It seems that these are more important things to focus on as relevant criteria, no?

And, I still can't find where the data for Saba is for the rate quoted on 'desired' residency (assuming 'desired' means "preferred"). Likewise, I'd suggest matching - even if it isn't necessarily your "preferred" specialty - is still success.

Or, as I've said for at least the past ten years on this forum (in different ways), apply far and wide for residency... and rank deep.

-Skip

 

[gyngyn]

It says "match to the specialty of the applicant's first-ranked program". That doesn't mean matched into their first-ranked program. For example, I only ranked anesthesia programs, and I matched into my second choice. Therefore, I was successful.

-Skip

I don't disagree with your interpretation. These are the same criteria used to describe the success of US Seniors and serves as the best data we have. More than half of US Seniors match into their first choice program. 42% of Saba grads don't even match into their first choice specialty. The Saba outcomes are on page 22.

 

[Skip Intro]

Well, I just didn't like the implications that you made using the term "desired" residency. Any residency placement is a good residency placement, while it may not be your first choice with regards to locale or specialty. So, this entire study is illuminating an issue that, in my opinion, didn't need to be illuminated. It has been fairly clearly established that the vast majority of Carib grads will land in either Family Medicine or Internal Medicine. If you don't know that going in, that's your own fault.

Personally, I interviewed at 13 programs and ranked 11 of them. I cancelled 2 interviews. I Matched into my #2. I applied to, if I recall correctly, over 30 programs. I didn't even hear back from more than half of them. This was in 2005.

So, the word "desired" takes on all manner of connotation. I "desired" to train in a southern city in a big name program, and ranked that program as #1. I didn't Match there. But, the second big name university program I subsequently Matched into still gave me all of those criteria - depth and breadth of caseload and experience - and I got awesome training. I was fully prepared to do literally any case when I finished. It was still my "preferred" specialty.

I would argue that all Carib students should apply far and wide, including back-up programs. You have to Match into something. Focus less on "desire" and more on being successful.

-Skip

 

[bedevilled ben]

Personally, I interviewed at 13 programs and ranked 11 of them. I cancelled 2 interviews. I Matched into my #2. I applied to, if I recall correctly, over 30 programs. I didn't even hear back from more than half of them. This was in 2005.

It's getting kind of absurd at this point. I have good scores and I applied to over 100 programs in arguably one of the least competitive residencies, and I ended up with 9 interviews, though thankfully matched at my #2 as well. I have friends in IM that applied to >250 programs, each with a nice little app fee paid to ERAS. IMG's are like cash pinatas to the AAMC.

 

[Skip Intro]

It's getting kind of absurd at this point. I have good scores and I applied to over 100 programs in arguably one of the least competitive residencies, and I ended up with 9 interviews, though thankfully matched at my #2 as well. I have friends in IM that applied to >250 programs, each with a nice little app fee paid to ERAS. IMG's are like cash pinatas to the AAMC.

I hear you, Ben. It is ridiculous and costs them little once you've submitted everything required in your application. (It's similar to the ridiculousness of banks charging out-of-network ATM fees. Purely a money-making scheme.)

I've said this before on this forum, but it bears repeating: Look at the lists that the school you're at produces of all of its residency placements... for the past several years. There are patterns there. Places that have repeatedly accepted graduates from your school. They have a track record of training graduates from your school, good or bad, and will sort of already know what they're getting with regards to the quality of your basic medical training, which is all you're really getting from that school.

When you graduate from medical school, you're not ready to practice. You have only laid the foundation. The "house" (i.e., your specialty), if you will, is built on that foundation. Programs have the advantage over you because (a) they already have a good idea of the caliber of graduate who will match into their program along with how much effort they are going to expend based on the peculiarities of your program, and (b) you come to them and they get to pick-and-choose.

I'm not saying that carpet-bombing your application is necessarily a bad strategy. It is certainly an expensive one. At the very least, applicants should go back to the well. Programs that have never accepted a Carib grad... well, why would you even apply there? (Unless your mom or dad is the program director, that is.)

I say "apply far and wide", but do it smartly. Otherwise, you're just wasting your money.

-Skip

 

[StuGatz]

So I'm thinking about applying to Saba University School of Medicine and would like to know the pros and cons from the perspective of current and alumni of the school. How was the loan/financial aid process? How was the education? Matching experience and life on the island in general. Any information positive or negative will help.

Based on my personal experience (which is a short one as I left the island halfway through when I got accepted elsewhere), to answer your questions to the best of my ability without rambling (that much), here goes:

1) For me as an American, financial aid was a breeze, I got it the second month after I got there (though I was probably an exception). Not so much for the other Americans. My friend who is now studying for the step told me that he finally got his financial aid for third semester when he reached fifth semester. He sounds like the more extreme case. The others who I bothered with got their financial aid near the finals or near the middle of the semester. Just make sure you bring a few months' worth of money just in case.

2) The education was "meh". I'm sure everyone expects this given how little the tuition is. The lectures are worthless and you'll do better if you just self-study and memorize all the slides on your own. Compared to other programs, Saba is VERY fast paced. It's essentially an accelerated version of an already-accelerated program. You'll be done with all of histo and anatomy in like 6-7 weeks about.

3) I can't speak for matching experience, obviously, but based on what the dean told me and some of my classmates, Saba has been consistently holding a >90% match rate for a few years now. They did have commercials online at one point that claimed they have match rates comparable to top US med schools. I personally thought that was BS, but I don't know. I do know they wouldn't compare themselves to schools like SGU or AUC, but they would occasionally bring up how inferior Ross was compared to Saba. Not sure if that could act as a hint of how Saba views itself compared to its rivals.

4) Saba is a very small island. There are probably as many people living in the whole country as there are first semester students at Ross or SGU lol (think the actual number was just shy of 1000). The locals are extremely friendly and diverse. Crime is pretty much non-existent there. There are two towns/cities there. I couldn't stand it that groceries were so limited, and half the time the only things available were long expired and still overpriced. Internet speeds were reminiscent of the 1990s or early 2000s, there was no water supply on the island, instead you had to survive with a big tank of water that gets filled only when it rains (if it doesn't rain, and that tank runs dry, then you have no more water, and would have to pay about ~$100 USD to get a tank of water shipped to you later that week). On the plus side, you wouldn't really need a car since everyone is so friendly and knows everyone else that you can hitch rides fairly consistently.

Like any other program, it has its ups and downs. I personally wouldn't choose it again given my knowledge of the island and the program, but I think it's a decent program with people who can't get in anywhere else worth going to or for Canadians who hold Saba as the #1 offshore school. But don't be surprised that a huge chunk of your class will be failed medical students from other Caribbean programs.

Oh, and as a final note: Friends I keep in touch with counted the people who didn't make it with them to the next semester, and it was around 40% of who we started with, including me. Many students left because of the island, because they wanted a different program like AUC or some other Caribbean school, because they were failing, or for other reasons that I don't know personally. A few of my classmates felt fed-up they weren't being spoon-fed by the profs. Everyone has their reasons. This one guy got into a DO school, or at least he claimed to.

 

[bedevilled ben]

I'm not saying that carpet-bombing your application is necessarily a bad strategy. It is certainly an expensive one. At the very least, applicants should go back to the well. Programs that have never accepted a Carib grad... well, why would you even apply there? (Unless your mom or dad is the program director, that is.)

I say "apply far and wide", but do it smartly. Otherwise, you're just wasting your money.

-Skip

Hah! It's certainly a strategy I guess. Speaking personally, I pretty much carpet-bombed, but I did struggle a little with applying strategically. It wasn't particularly obvious to me which programs were appropriate for me to apply to, and like most bits of medicine, I think it's really valuable to get feedback from those ahead of you in the process. On one hand, I wanted to apply to programs that had taken IMGs previously because I just wanted a damn job, but I also wanted to blaze some trails and apply to new programs. Ultimately it didn't really matter for me specifically since I didn't get into my "reach" program anyway, but I'm happy to say that a lot of my classmates did. I think you've made this point a lot, but I'll reiterate it: have a plan, but have a backup plan, and a backup-backup plan.

 

[Sig123]

So I'm thinking about applying to Saba University School of Medicine and would like to know the pros and cons from the perspective of current and alumni of the school. How was the loan/financial aid process? How was the education? Matching experience and life on the island in general. Any information positive or negative will help.

Just happened to be looking around and came across this thread. Here is a data point for you:

1) Started Saba Jan 2006

2) Residency at Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, GA. Was chief resident and the only IMG in the program amongst 6 other residents per class.

3) Fellowship at the University of AL, Birmingham.

4) Working full time in PP out in Denver.

I'm 10 year since starting but all of my classmates are doing equally well.

Best of luck!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[gyngyn]

Just happened to be looking around and came across this thread. Here is a data point for you:

1) Started Saba Jan 2006

2) Residency at Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, GA. Was chief resident and the only IMG in the program amongst 6 other residents per class.

3) Fellowship at the University of AL, Birmingham.

4) Working full time in PP out in Denver.

I'm 10 year since starting but all of my classmates are doing equally well.

Best of luck!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Between '06 and now, the number of US (MD) Seniors has increased from 72,897 to 86,746.
The number of DO grads has increased by a much larger proportion.
GME funding has remained stagnant.
The opportunities available a decade ago for IMG's has been dramatically reduced by the increase in new medical schools and an increase in class size in existing schools.
In summary, a lot has changed in a decade.

 

[neutro]

Pros: You can get in.
Cons: Expensive considering how very poorly regarded it is by PD's.

REALLY? Which "PD's" are these?
PD's do not care about the school as much, rather how hard a resident works.

 

[neutro]

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

and what about the time wasted in uncertainty?

 

[neutro]

This must be balanced with:
1) The uncertainty of graduating from Saba (or any Caribbean medical school) as attrition rates for some of the "big 3" have been reported as high as 52%
2) securing any residency slot as some schools have report non-match placements at 30% of total placements.
In 2013 Saba had 45 US-IMGs match while 33 did not match.
3) the risk of the enormous debt that must be incurred if either of the above risks is not overcome.

The last factor is why as a long-time advisor I can no longer recommend students that consider these schools until all other avenues have been explored.

I will discuss the indepth financial issues with the school at another time. But Any school that has one of its founders in federal prison for the tax evasion over the sale, while the other is a fugitive, does give one pause.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...school-founder-guilty-at-florida-tax-trial-1-
http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-continuing-mystery-of-fugitive.html

You still have not answered the question.
Of course Caribbean schools are a gamble and certainly not a guarantee to anything. Anyone applying to these schools needs to carefully assess risks, benefits and alternatives and then determine the right course of action for themselves.

I think instead of wasting 3+years of applying repeatedly after undergraduate, post bacc and then still not getting into a DO/MD school, one can take the gamble of a "reputable" caribbean school, work at a capacity of >150% of a US graduate and still have a fair chance.

I value time more than anything. So after my undergrad at Uof Toronto, despite having a 3.86 GPA in my last year - 3.7 in my last two years, I took a plunge - went to Saba, graduated May 2010, secured a residency in Anesthesia, a fellowship in Pain Medicine, am boarded and I am practicing like any other physician.

Who will pay off undergrad loans while you're preparing yourself for another round of medical school application? 3 years of attending salary is more than enough to pay for my medical school and undergrad debt. Actually I already paid 1/3 of it off in 9 months...

Am I saying was it easy? heck no. But is it doable? Yes. What if I had not matched after medical school? I would have done research for a year like any other medical student that went unmatched. That research would have been far more meaningful after medical school than prior to it to beef up my application, because this time, atleast I would have a degree under my belt. What if I wasnt ready for boards? I would not take it unless I took diagnostic exams and did well. Like how I did for USMLE Step 2 CK when I had no choice but to defer it and obtained a 235/98 (back in those days, it was a good score - now I dont know).

Its all about risk management.

All options are there, one must be smart enough to look at themselves and plan accordingly. Caribbean schools offer an alternative - thats all. They put you way behind the line as a residency applicant - but they save time.

I could care less about Dr. Frederick's personal taxes and lawsuits. Its not my issue. I got my education, read a lot, did well enough to get into a good residency and made it.

Many people in my class made it also.

 

[gyngyn]

REALLY? Which "PD's" are these?
PD's do not care about the school as much, rather how hard a resident works.

All the ones I know.
PD's care about the ability to excel on in-service exams, teamwork, adaptability, reliability, communication skills, commitment to service, interpersonal skills and most of all, integrity. They will never know if you have these qualities because the Caribbean schools do not screen for them. Only the places that allow Caribbean rotations will see in vivo performance. That excludes a whole lot of places. PD's know that these applicants are desperate and that the field into which they are applying is often not their preferred specialty. Over time, this can make a tired house officer tired and disgruntled, not a combination likely to result in good RRC audits.

 

[neutro]

While this is not specifically for Saba, the aggregate data from Program Director's survey 2014 found 75% of programs use "Graduate of U.S. allopathic medical school" as a factor for selecting candidates to interview and 57% use it as a factor in ranking
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

so 25% dont use that as a solo factor.
43% *CAN* use IMGs for ranking

# Carib grads entering match / year? maybe a 1000?? maybe 1500??

Given that a Carib student knows that they are unlikely to obtain competitive residencies, if they have their stats competitive, then they have a chance for primary care and general residencies. Infact, I have seen multiple physicians switch residencies after one year because once you are a resident, the game changes. I obviously dont recommend doing this - but I have a friend, who wanted to be a surgeon since adolescence...went to a carib school because he was tired of wasting time and money and re-applying...started FP, and switched after one year. It can be done. You design your own destiny.

The US grads dont always become spectacular physicians either. I am appalled by some US grads's competence as physicians when I see their patients poorly and grossly being mismanaaged. I find them lazy and not not caring enough since there is this superiority complex bred throughout their training.
Again, that is a gross generalization.

Most impaired physicians in U.S. are american grads, btw...IMGs have a very little rate of being impaired (drugs, alcohol).

The bottom line is, at the end of the day, patients could care less if you went to a carib school, or chinese school or a top tier american school. If you make it as a doctor with lawful credentials, care for the patient in an honest manner, and provide good service, you will be respected. If you dont - well, you wont. That has nothing to do with which school you attended. You have to make it into residency - thats all.

 

[neutro]

All the ones I know.
PD's care about the ability to excel on in-service exams, teamwork, adaptability, reliability, communication skills, commitment to service, interpersonal skills and most of all, integrity. They will never know if you have these qualities because the Caribbean schools do not screen for them. Only the places that allow Caribbean rotations will see in vivo performance. That excludes a whole lot of places. PD's know that these applicants are desperate and that the field into which they are applying is often not their preferred specialty. Over time, this can make a tired house officer, tired and disgruntled, not a combination likely to result in good RRC audits.

You are biased, so I wont argue with you.
But I disagree with your gross generalizations.

 

[gyngyn]

You are biased, so I wont argue with you.
But I disagree with your gross generalizations.

Since we don't interview Caribbean grads and my students are not competing with them, I have no dog in this fight at all. I'm just giving voice to the data presented in @gonnif's reference.

 

[neutro]

Since we don't interview Caribbean grads, I have no dog in this fight at all. I'm giving voice to the data presented in @gonnif's reference.

Thats good - I would not want to be a resident where a PD is unable to discriminate candidates based on their aptitude, personality and work ethic on an individual basis and instead labels them a "Caribbean Grad".
That makes a lot of sense...

 

[gyngyn]

Thats good - I would not want to be a resident where a PD is unable to discriminate candidates based on their aptitude, personality and work ethic on an individual basis and instead labels them a "Caribbean Grad".
That makes a lot of sense...

You said that the Caribbean is a gamble. I agree. How can someone assess their risk in the gamble if they don't know all the facts (including prevalent practices)?

 

[neutro]

You said that the Caribbean is a gamble. I agree. How can someone assess their risk in the gamble if they don't know all the facts (including prevalent practices)?

Ask. Investigate. That's what doctors do. Thats what I do in my pain practice.
Assess situations on individual basis. Collect data. Form an impression and then decide on a candidate.
Not just blindly categorize a group of individuals as "not good enough"because they went to an XYZ school.

If I was a PD, I would pick a hard working IMG over an American grad anyday because I know how hungry they are and what it means to them.

 

[gyngyn]

Ask. Investigate. That's what doctors do. Thats what I do in my pain practice.
Assess situations on individual basis. Collect data. Form an impression and then decide on a candidate.
Not just blindly categorize a group of individuals as "not good enough".

Im sorry, that is ridiculous coming from a physician.

We do. Our conclusions are reflected in the AAMC report.
There was a time when we considered off-shore applicants. Eventually that changed. It has as much to do with changes in American medical schools as anything else. Not every Caribbean grad is "not good enough," but why would we take the gamble?