ROAD specialties not as appealing anymore?

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Why doesn't neurosurgery get a mention? SRS. That field is pretty interesting and has a lot to offer in terms of professional satisfaction. I"ve heard the pay is decent too.

We had like 10-20 people interested in neurosurg in my class prior to MS3. That number dwindled to 2-3 after everyone saw what the lifestyle is like for the residents (as well as attendings). Unless you're going into private practice spine after a NSG residency, then your lifestyle is a little more manageable.

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+10000

Urology anyone?

Pros:
High pay
Good hours
Good mix of procedures to clinic
No threat of losing ground to NPs, PAs, or anyone else
And the best part. PEENZ FOR DAYS

The good hours part is somewhat relative, but I agree with you. This is the specialty that interests me most right now. You also left out that it lends itself really nicely to interesting research, basic or clinical, at least for those of us interested in cancer. In conclusion, stfu and stop telling people about urology.

Nothing to see here. Just touching junk all day. Move along folks.

Why doesn't neurosurgery get a mention? SRS.

I know you wrote SRS, but this post is really not SRS.
 
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The good hours part is somewhat relative, but I agree with you. This is the specialty that interests me most right now. You also left out that it lends itself really nicely to interesting research, basic or clinical, at least for those of us interested in cancer. In conclusion, stfu and stop telling people about urology.

Nothing to see here. Just touching junk all day. Move along folks.



I know you wrote SRS, but this post is really not SRS.

Pls go. All those spots are reserved for me until I match. Then the rest of you can have whatever spot you want.
 
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To be ROAD, the residency needs to be tolerable as well. Urology, ortho, gen surg, and neurosurg do not fit this criteria. Optho is the only one that comes close and why it's the only surgical sub-specialty (if you want to call it that) on the PROP list I came up with. Ortho was never the 'O' in ROAD, I don't know why people think that. Its residency and lifestyle outside of residency are pretty intense; however, I still think it is hands down the best surgical specialty. It's just not for lifestyle reasons.
 
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Why doesn't neurosurgery get a mention? SRS. That field is pretty interesting and has a lot to offer in terms of professional satisfaction. I"ve heard the pay is decent too.

Because not many people want to work 100 hour weeks doing difficult work after your 7 year long residency is over. I mean I'd like to enjoy my thirties by not spending my life in the hospital if that's possible.
 
Not sure how psych made the list. Lifestyle is absolute **** (at least in my part of the country) unless you're in private practice or have managed to land a primarily outpatient job.
 
To be ROAD, the residency needs to be tolerable as well. Urology, ortho, gen surg, and neurosurg do not fit this criteria. Optho is the only one that comes close and why it's the only surgical sub-specialty (if you want to call it that) on the PROP list I came up with. Ortho was never the 'O' in ROAD, I don't know why people think that. Its residency and lifestyle outside of residency are pretty intense; however, I still think it is hands down the best surgical specialty. It's just not for lifestyle reasons.

I dunno how it is everywhere, but the urology residency at our institution is very chill - 7 to 5ish. On the other hand, ortho, gen surg, and neurosurg are all indeed indentured servants/terrible/awful/never leave the hospital residency programs (again, at my institution).
 
I dunno how it is everywhere, but the urology residency at our institution is very chill - 7 to 5ish. On the other hand, ortho, gen surg, and neurosurg are all indeed indentured servants/terrible/awful/never leave the hospital residency programs (again, at my institution).

The urology residents I know get to the hospital first and leave last, take plenty of call, etc., just like other surgical fields. Wouldn't surprise me if it's not as bad as some of the other surgical residencies, but it's definitely not a cakewalk.
 
Why doesn't neurosurgery get a mention? SRS. That field is pretty interesting and has a lot to offer in terms of professional satisfaction. I"ve heard the pay is decent too.
As others have said - heck no for a lifestyle nod. I would argue that they do some of the most worthy, highly trained, and coolest things in all of medicine and they are viewed as the most prestigious in the public's eye ("it's not rocket science or brain surgery"). However, 7 year residency + possible fellowship, rounding at 4 AM and getting done with the last surgery at 10 PM, 16 hour procedures, etc, etc - it really is a super hard-working training process. Yes, their money is infinite but the lifestyle, at least in residency, is tough.
 
The urology residents I know get to the hospital first and leave last, take plenty of call, etc., just like other surgical fields. Wouldn't surprise me if it's not as bad as some of the other surgical residencies, but it's definitely not a cakewalk.
Touche, I guess it depends on the institution, how busy the service is, and how many of their patients are managed by other primaries.
 
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I don't see any reason why psych NPs won't demolish psych in 10 years. They are pumping them out at huge rates and have independent practice in most states. Just look at that annoying zenman guy that trolls our forums saying he is just as good as an MD. For people saying how great rad onc is, they narrowly dodged an across the board 17% reimbursement cut from CMS a year back. They settled for a smaller cut. Lots of dudes in optho are apparently having trouble cracking $250k unless they hustle in private practice in a profitable area. I'll eat a turd if Derm and GI manage to dodge substantial CMS cuts over the next 2-3 years with how many NYT articles are written every other day about them making too much. I think the best choices currently are EM, hospitalist, PM&R, and critical care from any route. They hit almost the same hours worked/money earned as subspecialty surgery with shorter residencies/easier hours. Uro and ENT will be good besides the residency if you get into a decent practice environment. Concierge FM/IM/Psych is awesome but hard/risky to break into. Neuro might be good in the right subspecialty but CMS cuts already slapped EMGs and threatened EEGs.
 
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i wonder if docs will ever fight back. we are getting bombarded by literally everyone (government, insurance, patients, nurses..). how much longer can we take (both of my residents said they plan on practicing in their home country after finishing residency now that they've seen what healthcare is like in this country)? though i imagine the whole nursing thing wont last a long time before they get a pay cut too since its so easy to get into nurses and as their salaries go up... more and more will be going into nursing.. and less so doctoring.
 
So let's say you make 400,000 a year as a surgeon or whatever but aren't you in the top like 45% tax bracket?
 
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...how many NYT articles are written every other day about them making too much.

It's sad how media drives such dumb changes - decreasing reimbursements, people refusing vaccinations b/c a porn star said so, etc.
 
I don't see any reason why psych NPs won't demolish psych in 10 years. They are pumping them out at huge rates and have independent practice in most states. Just look at that annoying zenman guy that trolls our forums saying he is just as good as an MD. For people saying how great rad onc is, they narrowly dodged an across the board 17% reimbursement cut from CMS a year back. They settled for a smaller cut. Lots of dudes in optho are apparently having trouble cracking $250k unless they hustle in private practice in a profitable area. I'll eat a turd if Derm and GI manage to dodge substantial CMS cuts over the next 2-3 years with how many NYT articles are written every other day about them making too much. I think the best choices currently are EM, hospitalist, PM&R, and critical care from any route. They hit almost the same hours worked/money earned as subspecialty surgery with shorter residencies/easier hours. Uro and ENT will be good besides the residency if you get into a decent practice environment. Concierge FM/IM/Psych is awesome but hard/risky to break into. Neuro might be good in the right subspecialty but CMS cuts already slapped EMGs and threatened EEGs.

No offense, but I suspect there is a high risk of turd-eating in your future. NYT may whine, but so far GI and Derm have been largely spared by CMS. Lots of money --> powerful lobbyists
 
I don't see any reason why psych NPs won't demolish psych in 10 years. They are pumping them out at huge rates and have independent practice in most states. Just look at that annoying zenman guy that trolls our forums saying he is just as good as an MD. For people saying how great rad onc is, they narrowly dodged an across the board 17% reimbursement cut from CMS a year back. They settled for a smaller cut. Lots of dudes in optho are apparently having trouble cracking $250k unless they hustle in private practice in a profitable area. I'll eat a turd if Derm and GI manage to dodge substantial CMS cuts over the next 2-3 years with how many NYT articles are written every other day about them making too much. I think the best choices currently are EM, hospitalist, PM&R, and critical care from any route. They hit almost the same hours worked/money earned as subspecialty surgery with shorter residencies/easier hours. Uro and ENT will be good besides the residency if you get into a decent practice environment. Concierge FM/IM/Psych is awesome but hard/risky to break into. Neuro might be good in the right subspecialty but CMS cuts already slapped EMGs and threatened EEGs.

Agreed.
 
No offense, but I suspect there is a high risk of turd-eating in your future. NYT may whine, but so far GI and Derm have been largely spared by CMS. Lots of money --> powerful lobbyists

very naive, you really think that media's recent fascination with blaming doctor's reimbursement for high healthcare costs (instead of focusing on actual factors that drive high costs) is not setting up for a decrease in reimbursements?..those people on CMS are influenced by politics instead of legitimate health issues..Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary of Health and Human Services, you know the lady overseeing ObamaCare and CMS is a former lobbyist of Kansas Trial Lawyers Association, i.e. malpractice lawyers. The government uses media to drive people's perceptions to justify cuts.

Physicians are the safest political target because we're so divided (nurses are united and have a powerful lobby which is why NPs and CRNAs have gotten so much autonomy, insurance industry is united and has a powerful lobby, pharma is united and has a powerful lobby..what do we have? we have primary care doctors saying that specialists get paid too much, surgeons saying radiologist aren't real doctors and should not get reimbursed as much as they have been, rad onc saying that urology is abusing prostate cancer patients for profit, etc.), plus the average person will have no sympathy for us. The stage is being set for drastic cuts over the next decade with medicine heading towards hospital-based employment as opposed to private practice. With the growing autonomy of nurse practitioners and CRNAs whose salarys are at $120,000 vs. $400,000 for anesthesiologist, who do you think a hospital will hire?

Derm is being set up for drastic cuts over the next several years just like what is happening with radiology (that too started with chatter about radiology making too much just for reading films). The average person knows absolutely nothing about derm and will more likely equate it with elective cosmetic treatment than more legitimate, serious derm issues.

Rad onc and urology will also face cuts with the recurrent coverage of urology's use of radiation therapy to drive profits (look it up, NYT has an article on that too). And whoever made the comment of IR still being appealing, doesnt know anything about IR which should never be classified as a ROAD specialty (it's lifestyle is brutal and more surgery-like than radiology).

in all honesty, I was just stating the obvious--that ROAD specialties are not as appealing as they once were to elicit discussion...however the truth is that all fields of medicine are screwed which is why I made the comment that we entered medicine at the worst time possible (which no, does not surprise me)
 
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very naive, you really think that media's recent fascination with blaming doctor's reimbursement for high healthcare costs (instead of focusing on actual factors that drive high costs) is not setting up for a decrease in reimbursements?..those people on CMS are influenced by politics instead of legitimate health issues..Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary of Health and Human Services, you know the lady overseeing ObamaCare and CMS is a former lobbyist of Kansas Trial Lawyers Association, i.e. malpractice lawyers. The government uses media to drive people's perceptions to justify cuts.

Physicians are the safest political target because we're so divided (nurses are united and have a powerful lobby which is why NPs and CRNAs have gotten so much autonomy, insurance industry is united and has a powerful lobby, pharma is united and has a powerful lobby..what do we have? we have primary care doctors saying that specialists get paid too much, surgeons saying radiologist aren't real doctors and should not get reimbursed as much as they have been, rad onc saying that urology is abusing prostate cancer patients for profit, etc.), plus the average person will have no sympathy for us. The stage is being set for drastic cuts over the next decade with medicine heading towards hospital-based employment instead of private practice. With the growing autonomy of nurse practitioners and CRNAs who are much cheaper to higher at $120,000 vs. $400,000 for anesthesiologist, who do you think a hospital will higher?

Derm is being set up for drastic cuts over the next several years just like what is happening with radiology (that too started with chatter about radiology making too much just for reading films). The average person knows absolutely nothing about derm and will more likely equate it with elective cosmetic treatment than more legitimate, serious derm issues.

Rad onc and urology will also face cuts with the recurrent coverage of urology's use of radiation therapy to drive profits (look it up, NYT has an article on that too).

in all honesty, I was just stating the obvious--that ROAD specialties are not as appealing as they once were to elicit discussion...however the truth is that all fields of medicine are screwed which is why I made the comment that we entered medicine at the worst time possible (which no, does not surprise me)

The other thing we have going against us is having to borrow 200-300k for education and spend a decade acquiring skills. Most people don't understand the sacrifice and just look at the end product of a high salary. Just like the pro sports athlete, no one sees the hard work, just the end product.
 
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I'm still liking anesthesia.
The sky has been falling for 20 years. The average income is still >$400. CRNA income? They're killing themselves.

Yeah but you're practicing pediatric anesthesia in an ivory tower...
 
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And my friends grind it out for the big coin in PP.
I chose wisely though. ;) Sub specialty and location.

Well from the way things are looking right now, that big coin is getting smaller by the day. I might have seen it here but someone said path used to be great pay. Now they get paid less than half of what they used to for double the work. Seems that anesthesia is going down that pathway too except instead of you doing that double work, you'll be watching CRNAs do it while taking responsibility for their actions.
 
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If you say so. My income is up. And the hospital is thriving. Who knows 5, 10, 20 years out. We'll all be working for Uncle Sam. Or retired. Maybe Canadian style 2 tier system. Big profitable multi center health systems would be the winners in that system. I'll hedge my bet in the ivory tower.
 
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Rome didn't fall in a single day.
 
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We need to get him out of the White House pronto
 
If it wasn't unethical I'd say hand the CRNA's the attending's responsibility for the patient. Have them pay malpractice. See if they want to be equals then.
 
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The other thing we have going against us is having to borrow 200-300k for education and spend a decade acquiring skills. Most people don't understand the sacrifice and just look at the end product of a high salary. Just like the pro sports athlete, no one sees the hard work, just the end product.

yeah exactly..i wrote an "essay" in the derm forum several weeks ago about that..quoted below

I'm not in derm but I was pretty pissed off after reading such a sensationalized and misleading article by NY Times.

The reporter conveniently ignores the amount of education, high level of academic performance, sacrifice, time and money that it takes to become a doctor (pre-med (4 years) --> medical school (4 years) --> residency (3-7 years) --> fellowship (1-3 years) and this doesn't include if you take a gap year which is becoming increasingly required due to the competitive nature of medical school admission and some professions like radiology and pathology are requiring multiple fellowships before one is able to find a job). Plus the insane amount of debt that is accrued over our training (quarter of million for tuition alone assuming you got some scholarships plus interest, not including living expenses). The amount of income potential that is lost within that decade of training is conveniently ignored. No other profession requires this much education, training, time, money or sacrifice. We live in a capitalist society and when every other profession is out there making money (lawyers, bankers, dentists, pharmacists, nurse practitioners, CRNAs, etc) it's pretty naive to think doctors should or will take a pay cut for doing a "noble cause." I don't blame doctors for trying to increase their income as long as they are not hurting their patients or making them undergo unnecessary procedures. And yes it is not fair that primary care doctors make so little. There should be talk about increasing their pay instead of decreasing the specialists pay.

The reporter also compares incomes in Europe vs. incomes in US--training in Europe is also relatively easier than here in the US. Their work hours are typically restricted to 50 hours a week during residency, they do not have 4 years of pre-med (a money-making scheme) because they go to medical school straight from high school (which is why medical school is traditionally called undergraduate medical education and the MBBS degree is an undergraduate degree that is equal to the MD degree) and their education is ridiculously cheap compared to the US. She also didn't mention the insane malpractice premium physicians/surgeons have to pay here in such a highly litigious culture.

There is absolutely no discussion of why hospitals have to charge so much. They're trying to cover for all the lost revenue from patients who do not pay and from insurance companies/government when they fail to reimburse. Thus, the costs gets directed on to other patients who have insurance or who can pay leading to insane bills. They're not doing it out of greed, they're doing it for sustainability. The government and insurance companies have too much power in the health care industry which ultimately drive up costs. A doctor's salary is a small cause of the increasing health care costs even though thats what is being targeted by the government and media. When the government and insurance industry make decisions they are not taking into account the best interests of the patient. The government is inherently inefficient and has bankrupted the post office, social security, medicare/medicaid and play politics with important issues and people still want them to take over health care? On the other side you have the insurance industry, which is for-profit and their goal is to minimize costs while maximizing profits at the expense of what is best for the patient and now with Obamacare they just received a blank check to maximize profits. Tort reform is never discussed because the government is run by lawyers and the person that currently determines physician reimbursement and operates Obamacare and medicare/medicaid is Kathleen Sebelius, a former lobbyist for the Kansas Trial Lawyers Association. Despite these real issues that are conveniently ignored, the political leaders and media are obsessed with selling the story that doctor's salaries is a major cause of health care costs.

Just like any other profession, not all doctors are equal. The reporter did not even attempt to differentiate between the quality of doctors (academics vs. non-profit hospitals/clinics vs. for-profit centers vs. for-profit solo private practice). The main issue that the article discusses is confined to doctors in for-profit practice who joined medicine primarily to make money but the article fails to make that distinction. This is seen in every field and it's not at all specific to medicine. Think of the shady lawyers and dentists that you've seen or heard about. Yes there are some shady and unethical primary care doctors, specialists and surgeons--it's these people that need to be exposed instead of painting an entire field of medicine as "evil." NYT has published several articles criticizing different fields of medicine and blaming them for the cause of high health care costs. It's not black vs. white. It's extremely irresponsible for them to write such sensationalized articles without giving the full story or presenting the alternate side to the story.

Unfortunately, it's the system that has failed our patients (the money hungry malpractice lawyers and all the misleading advertisements that they air on TV to take advantage of people who are already suffering, the stingy for-profit insurance companies that currently enjoy a monopoly by being able to restrict patients to a certain geographical location even though we live in an increasingly globalized society, the failure of Obamacare from preventing insurance companies from increasing the premiums/deductibles on the already struggling middle class, the government bankrupting medicare/medicaid)---doctors income is not the major issue despite what they want you to believe. We're easy targets because we are so divided. They're trying to paint a picture of the doctors being evil because we're the politically safest target, the average person is not going to have sympathy for us. Doctors need to go on the offense to take on the political leaders and media and to educate the public on what doctors have to go through, unfortunately that will not happen because we're so divided.
 
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We need to get him out of the White House pronto

How about you get back to your pathology small groups; these thanks obama are a satire on how people blame Obama for stuff he has nothing to do with.
 
How about you get back to your pathology small groups; these thanks obama are a satire on how people blame Obama for stuff he has nothing to do with.
Nothing to do with. He is trying to cut your GME Funding by 10 billion dollars. When you can't get a residency then blame him
 
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Nothing to do with. He is trying to cut your GME Funding by 10 billion dollars. When you can't get a residency then blame him

Nah, blame yourself for not having 50 pubs, AOA, and a 270. There's always room at the top.
 
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Nah, blame yourself for not having 50 pubs, AOA, and a 270. There's always room at the top.

If they cut GME funding then residents don't have anyone to pay them. I don't know who would pay at that point.
 
Ha this is always brought up and the answer is...the hospitals. As much as academic hospitals whine about how they wouldn't be able to cover resident salaries without GME funding, anyone who knows anything about the systems knows that they wouldn't run without residents. The whole academic hospital system is structured around the resident/fellow/attending system. You'd end up paying someone else a lot more money to do the same exact same job. You think a ARNP or PA is gonna do Q4 call on a medicine floor for 40K/year? Don't make me laugh.

Ha the hospital would pay extra for an indentured servant? They'd make you pay tuition for residency..it's already been proposed..look it up

Edit: looked it up for you:

Possible Medicare Cuts Worry Med Schools

Tens of billions of dollars in cuts to some Medicare reimbursements and hospital payments are now on the table as part of the deficit-reduction talks between the White House and Congressional Republicans, and cuts in at least one area would affect the $9.5 billion Medicare pays to teaching hospitals each year, The New York Times reported Tuesday. Whether the cuts will become law depends on the outcome of the negotiations, but the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, as well as a coalition of hospital lobbyists that includes the Association of American Medical Colleges, has sounded the alarm.
In an open letter, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, which accredits residency programs, laid out its concerns about the changes. Medicare payments compose the majority of funding for training medical residents and fellows, the council wrote. Losing the Medicare payments would mean that the small, often rural health-care providers that make up about half of the group's 681 accredited programs might have to stop offering residencies. Larger providers might turn to industry sponsorship or ask residents to pay tuition. "Abrupt and dramatic reductions in Medicare [graduate medical education] funding will have a significant and adverse impact on both the number of residents educated and trained, and the quality of that education," the group wrote. "This will challenge the profession's responsibility as a public trust to produce the next generation of physicians to serve the needs of the American public through the provision of excellent, innovative, safe and affordable care."

http://ihe.britishcouncil.org/content/possible-medicare-cuts-worry-med-schools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/us/05deficit.html?ref=us&_r=0
 
Ha the hospital would pay extra for an indentured servant? They'd make you pay tuition for residency..it's already been proposed..look it up

Edit: looked it up for you:

Possible Medicare Cuts Worry Med Schools

Tens of billions of dollars in cuts to some Medicare reimbursements and hospital payments are now on the table as part of the deficit-reduction talks between the White House and Congressional Republicans, and cuts in at least one area would affect the $9.5 billion Medicare pays to teaching hospitals each year, The New York Times reported Tuesday. Whether the cuts will become law depends on the outcome of the negotiations, but the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, as well as a coalition of hospital lobbyists that includes the Association of American Medical Colleges, has sounded the alarm.
In an open letter, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, which accredits residency programs, laid out its concerns about the changes. Medicare payments compose the majority of funding for training medical residents and fellows, the council wrote. Losing the Medicare payments would mean that the small, often rural health-care providers that make up about half of the group's 681 accredited programs might have to stop offering residencies. Larger providers might turn to industry sponsorship or ask residents to pay tuition. "Abrupt and dramatic reductions in Medicare [graduate medical education] funding will have a significant and adverse impact on both the number of residents educated and trained, and the quality of that education," the group wrote. "This will challenge the profession's responsibility as a public trust to produce the next generation of physicians to serve the needs of the American public through the provision of excellent, innovative, safe and affordable care."

http://ihe.britishcouncil.org/content/possible-medicare-cuts-worry-med-schools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/us/05deficit.html?ref=us&_r=0

Cmon, you can't really believe residents will need to pay to work.
 
Ha this is always brought up and the answer is...the hospitals. As much as academic hospitals whine about how they wouldn't be able to cover resident salaries without GME funding, anyone who knows anything about the systems knows that they wouldn't run without residents. The whole academic hospital system is structured around the resident/fellow/attending system. You'd end up paying someone else a lot more money to do the same exact same job. You think a ARNP or PA is gonna do Q4 call on a medicine floor for 40K/year? Don't make me laugh.

Fair enough. But then the salaries could be variable. Community programs offering 35k instead of 50k. Not all of the residencies are overflowing with $.
 
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Ha the hospital would pay extra for an indentured servant? They'd make you pay tuition for residency..it's already been proposed..look it up

Edit: looked it up for you:

Possible Medicare Cuts Worry Med Schools

Tens of billions of dollars in cuts to some Medicare reimbursements and hospital payments are now on the table as part of the deficit-reduction talks between the White House and Congressional Republicans, and cuts in at least one area would affect the $9.5 billion Medicare pays to teaching hospitals each year, The New York Times reported Tuesday. Whether the cuts will become law depends on the outcome of the negotiations, but the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, as well as a coalition of hospital lobbyists that includes the Association of American Medical Colleges, has sounded the alarm.
In an open letter, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, which accredits residency programs, laid out its concerns about the changes. Medicare payments compose the majority of funding for training medical residents and fellows, the council wrote. Losing the Medicare payments would mean that the small, often rural health-care providers that make up about half of the group's 681 accredited programs might have to stop offering residencies. Larger providers might turn to industry sponsorship or ask residents to pay tuition. "Abrupt and dramatic reductions in Medicare [graduate medical education] funding will have a significant and adverse impact on both the number of residents educated and trained, and the quality of that education," the group wrote. "This will challenge the profession's responsibility as a public trust to produce the next generation of physicians to serve the needs of the American public through the provision of excellent, innovative, safe and affordable care."

http://ihe.britishcouncil.org/content/possible-medicare-cuts-worry-med-schools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/us/05deficit.html?ref=us&_r=0

Pretty much what I thought. I know some of the smaller residencies wouldn't be able to pay 300k per PGY, possibly 1.5 million per year or something. They could easily cut the salaries by 1/3 or 1/2. That would change residency as we know it. Competition would increase to those that paid the typical 50k.

Cmon, you can't really believe residents will need to pay to work.

I agree that would never happen. In a terrible scenario, poor residencies could say they would pay you room and board, with you supplying all your other expenses via loans (i.e. a 20-25k per year gig). This scenario could happen.
 
Cmon, you can't really believe residents will need to pay to work.

I don't think it will actually happen because it would be a disaster, but it has been proposed as a last-resort option by ACGME which should scare us all that they would even consider such an option and scare us at the path that medicine can potentially take. Also, there is already a precedence for paying tuition for residency, there are some dental residencies that charge tuition per year during residency in addition to giving you a salary.

What's sad is that we get paid the same salary as dentist, pharmD, and physician assistant residents despite the fact we work MUCH longer hours, have a longer residency, higher education and higher debt.

see examples below:
http://www.montefiore.org/dentistry...ograms-residencies-oral-maxillofacial-surgery
http://www.montefiore.org/dentistry-professional-training-programs-residencies-orthodontics
 
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Cmon, you can't really believe residents will need to pay to work.
I don't think it will actually happen because it would be a disaster in the making, but it has been proposed as a last-resort option by ACGME which should scare us all that they would even consider such an option and scare us at the path that medicine can potentially take. Also, there is already a precedence for paying tuition for residency, there are some dental residencies that charge tuition per year during residency in addition to giving you a salary.

see examples below:
http://www.montefiore.org/dentistry...ograms-residencies-oral-maxillofacial-surgery
http://www.montefiore.org/dentistry-professional-training-programs-residencies-orthodontics

Exactly, the could charge 25k per year in tuition or just pay out 25k per year in salary. I would guess they would pay 50k and charge 25k just to make it seem better (and add that 25k per year to your hundreds of thousands in debt).
 
what do you guys think about PM&R?

do you think PTs will destroy it in 10 years?
 
what do you guys think about PM&R?

do you think PTs will destroy it in 10 years?

It all has to do with the government and laws. If the government decides there aren't enough PMR docs and then reimburses PTs the same, then they could. That's what's happening in psych/anesthesia. The shortage of psychiatrists was good for their income for a while, but times are a changing.
 
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It all has to do with the government and laws. If the government decides there aren't enough PMR docs and then reimburses PTs the same, then they could. That's what's happening in psych/anesthesia. The shortage of psychiatrists was good for their income for a while, but times are a changing.

Not necessarily reimburse them the same...they'll reimburse them less but provide enough incentive for the midlevels to take those jobs (i.e. paying PT $110,000 vs. $200,000 to PM&R doctor, nurse practitioner $95,000 vs. primary care doc $180,000, etc)..thats the appeal to hospitals/government/insurance companies (pay less for something that a midlevel could do, why pay more to a doctor when a midlevel nurse practioner or CRNA can do the job for a fraction of the cost)..midlevels will never earn the same as doctors..that's not the issue..the issue is that they provide hospitals/government/insurance companies a cheaper alternative which puts pressure on doctor's salaries/jobs (i.e. they drive down our salaries)

there is also another potential issue: if you've noticed the midlevels who have autonomy take on the easy cases, leaving the more serious cases to the MDs..well guess what? now that reimbursement is being tied to clinical outcomes MDs who deal with sicker, more serious cases are at a disadvantage financially if midlevels get the easy cases that will more likely be fully reimbursed

just some food for thought for us future MDs..the field of medicine isn't looking so good unless we become more pro-active
 
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Not necessarily reimburse them the same...they'll reimburse them less but provide enough incentive for the midlevels to take those jobs (i.e. paying PT $110,000 vs. $200,000 to PM&R doctor, nurse practitioner $95,000 vs. primary care doc $180,000, etc)..thats the appeal to hospitals/government/insurance companies (pay less for something that a midlevel could do, why pay more to a doctor when a midlevel nurse practioner or CRNA can do the job for a fraction of the cost)..midlevels will never earn the same as doctors..that's not the issue..the issue is that they provide hospitals/government/insurance companies a cheaper alternative which puts pressure on doctor's salaries/jobs (i.e. they drive down our salaries)

there is also another potential issue: if you've noticed the midlevels who have autonomy take on the easy cases, leaving the more serious cases to the MDs..well guess what? now that reimbursement is being tied to clinical outcomes MDs who deal with sicker, more serious cases are at a disadvantage financially if midlevels get the easy cases that will more likely be fully reimbursed

just some food for thought for us future MDs..the field of medicine isn't looking so good unless we become more pro-active

Still, salary plays a role because it can attract future clinicians to the market. A good example is the psych NP. This may be one of the better jobs in medicine. Very low training, not a huge knowledge base, some states are paying 150k to do med checks, 40 hrs a week.

I'm not sure how their training works, but I looked at a few sites and the cost for 2 years of tuition to get an NP in-state could be around 12k. So you spend 24k in tuition for a 150k salary after college. Compare that with medical school which you pay 150k in tuition for 4 years to earn 200k, and that's after 8 years of training. Just looking at numbers, that's difficult to beat for 40 hr work weeks throughout all their training.

Nursing really has put together some great opportunities. They seem much more adept at creating opportunities than the MD side of the world.
 
Pretty much what I thought. I know some of the smaller residencies wouldn't be able to pay 300k per PGY, possibly 1.5 million per year or something. They could easily cut the salaries by 1/3 or 1/2. That would change residency as we know it. Competition would increase to those that paid the typical 50k.



I agree that would never happen. In a terrible scenario, poor residencies could say they would pay you room and board, with you supplying all your other expenses via loans (i.e. a 20-25k per year gig). This scenario could happen.
Many dental residents in specialties pay tuition for residency. I can totally see some of the short competitive residencies, like derm, charging tuition and people agreeing to it. I cannot imagine that happening in a long program like CT surg.
 
what do you guys think about PM&R?

do you think PTs will destroy it in 10 years?
Absolutely not. PTs don't actually learn medicine, so they won't be able to run inpatient rehab units, prescribe meds, or perform procedures. PM&R does a lot more than prescribe physical therapy exercises (PM&Rs never actually perform PT) so if PTs do it themselves they'll survive.
 
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I don't think it will actually happen because it would be a disaster, but it has been proposed as a last-resort option by ACGME which should scare us all that they would even consider such an option and scare us at the path that medicine can potentially take. Also, there is already a precedence for paying tuition for residency, there are some dental residencies that charge tuition per year during residency in addition to giving you a salary.

What's sad is that we get paid the same salary as dentist, pharmD, and physician assistant residents despite the fact we work MUCH longer hours, have a longer residency, higher education and higher debt.

see examples below:
http://www.montefiore.org/dentistry...ograms-residencies-oral-maxillofacial-surgery
http://www.montefiore.org/dentistry-professional-training-programs-residencies-orthodontics
The thing about midlevel residencies is that they are generally not required. The first NP residency ever began in 2007. Just think about that! Which means that realistically, especially if we are talking about non-primary care, most NPs never did formal training in the field they are in, and in hiring an NP, the docs hiring them are assuming essentially no clinical knowledge with a new hire. So if these hospitals make these "residencies" punishing, no one will do them. EDIT: PA residencies are also optional but apparently have a longer history, as the oldest PA residency is 40 years old.
 
Why doesn't neurosurgery get a mention? SRS. That field is pretty interesting and has a lot to offer in terms of professional satisfaction. I"ve heard the pay is decent too.

What's the point in having a mansion if you have to sleep in the call room anyways?
 
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Because the differential for dermatological conditions is extremely wide. You have to know when to biopsy, when to do additional testing, and when to use clinical judgement and say, "It's nothing, come back if it changes". Read the posts of GuyWhoDoesStuff when he chronicled the shotgun testing a PA did on what is supposed to be a 100% clinical diagnosis.


Could you elaborate about this public relations crisis derm is experiencing...and why allergy is so boring? What sort of things does allergy treat mainly? Is it all lab tests?
Everyone (the media) think derm gets paid too much because most of the time, they do nothing (or very little). However, they have the knowledge to know that what the patient is worried about isn't serious, and also know when something requires more testing.

I'm not sure if allergy is considered boring. I had like one or two afternoons in it during Peds, and it was scratch tests with a bunch of common allergens to determine what a kid was allergic to. Cool to see the wheal and flare of an allergic reaction develop on sight.

I saw a program on urology and it seems painfully boring. Even the procedures are just so mundane that it could almost be done with eyes closed...okay, not really but still.

What? The spectrum for urological procedures is pretty damn wide considering that they deal with just the GU system. This is an ignorant statement. A prostatectomy is a mundane procedure? A partial nephrectomy to remove renal cancer?

If you did a urological procedure with your eyes closed, you'd probably cut the ureter. Then you'd have to open your eyes and fix the ureter. What a hassle.
 
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The other thing we have going against us is having to borrow 200-300k for education and spend a decade acquiring skills. Most people don't understand the sacrifice and just look at the end product of a high salary. Just like the pro sports athlete, no one sees the hard work, just the end product.

Even if they did, they wouldn't care. They see you as a greedy doctor who capitalizes on other people's suffering.
 
If you say so. My income is up. And the hospital is thriving. Who knows 5, 10, 20 years out. We'll all be working for Uncle Sam. Or retired. Maybe Canadian style 2 tier system. Big profitable multi center health systems would be the winners in that system. I'll hedge my bet in the ivory tower.

Of course, as then you are able to charge high facility fees to Medicare for the same service. Once those disappear, the real competition between academics and private practice begins.
 
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