Review forensics fellowships

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Afrikyn

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Hello, I have tried posting under other threads but have not gotten any responses. I am hoping that people out there who have done forensics fellowships can post their thoughts (pros/cons, work load, variety or training experiences, support for finding a job after fellowship, things you wish you knew before you got there, things you wish you knew or did as a PGY3/4, ect.) of their particular fellowship programs. I have searched and searched and the only fellowships that I have seen any "reviews" on are for case western and nyc programs. I am not really interested in going to either one of those cities so I hope to hear about some other programs too. I am particularly interested in the Georgetown, Emory, and the California programs. I (and I am sure others) would appreciate reading about any other programs as well. Thanks!

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still no takers?
 
There are very few people who enter forensic psychiatry. Even fewer who want to take the time to explain what they've seen.

This probably explains the lack of posts. There's probably only 1-3 fellows per program per year, and a strong lack of cohesiveness among such fellows.

Mentioned this before in other threads, but from my own experience from people who are in fellowships, and what I've seen from my interviews, here are the programs that I thought were better than others in no particular order (and why)

Case Western: Phil Resnick teaches here & is the PD...and he helps you with your career.
U Mass: Pinals is the PD here. Paul Applebaum used to be. The "other" Applebaum--Kenneth is there too. The psychiatric & psychological fellows work hand in hand which is very important because forensic psychiatrists often times need the psychological testing that psychiatric training does not teach.
Cincinnati: John Kennedy, Brad Mossman & Phil Resnick teach here. Psychological testing is also taught here, and its a major hub of research concerning the HCR-20. The forensic facility in Cincinnati is one of the most advanced in the country in terms of state of the art facilities. Henry Nasrallah is a frequent consultant at the forensic facility. The Institute of Psychiatry & the Law is located here.
NYU: Rosner is the PD here. NYU has had a rep of being the best program in NYC though Rosner's health as of a year ago was compromised. This may have affected the program.
Albert Einstein: Has the best word of mouth reviews from the NYC fellows I've talked with. Merrill Rotter is the PD here and has a great rep as a mentor.
Rochester: Ciccone teaches here and he is a giant in the field. He is also respected as a great teacher & mentor and will help you get along with your career if you enter the field.


I've certainly seen programs that did not impress me which I will not mention by name.

And here's some things I've heard about other programs--
Harvard: don't know anything about their fellowship, but Tom Gutheil is there, and he is a highly respected forensic psychiatrist.

Columbia: Paul Applebaum is now at Columbia, though he is not the PD. I was also told he really has no direct involvement with the fellows in terms of teaching (though I could be wrong). While he certainly is impressive, I don't know exactly how much that'd help a fellow other than the Columbia name. The current PD is Simring who was the previous residency PD at UMDNJ-New Brunswick. (correction Newark)

UMDNJ-New Brunswick is starting a forensic fellowship, and NJ is in sore need of one given the lack of forensic psychiatrists in that state which I personally find appalling given how much NJ pumps into mental health & its population density. There are several psychiatrists working on forensic units without formal training or an organized fellowship in the area. There were also a few forensic psychiatrists I've seen in NJ who were willing to say anything for the right pay, so I am glad to hear there will be a fellowship there to add some light to that darkness.

Tulane-I interviewed there & got a very good feeling from the program, its directors & fellows. New Orleans is also in sore need of psychiatrists, and if you go there.



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There are very few people who enter forensic psychiatry. Even fewer who want to take the time to explain what they've seen.

This probably explains the lack of posts. There's probably only 1-3 fellows per program per year, and a strong lack of cohesiveness among such fellows.
...

Either that or they are just following their sworn allegiance to the Code of Silence enforced by the secret Order of Forensic Illuminati.

[crap...I've already said too mu------------------------------------:scared:
 
Either that or they are just following their sworn allegiance to the Code of Silence enforced by the secret Order of Forensic Illuminati.

There maybe some truth to this.

I've heard (and I believe it) that the lack of forensic psychiatrists in NJ is because the major ones there making the moolah didn't take a hand in making a fellowship to keep the marketshare down.

There are areas--several counties back to back with no forensic psychiatrists. I take a look at the situation in Cincinnati which has a lot less money in mental health services & it being light years ahead.

It does make a difference to the surrounding community. When I think of the criminal psychopaths on the streets being taken out, and being appropriately put into a forensic facility vs being put on the street, and a reduction in the doctors being willing to say anything for $$$, it makes me hope that there will be more people that go into the field for the right reasons.
 
Let's face it; forensic psychiatry is probably the best kept secret in the entire field of medicine/medical training. My ultimate goal is to have a reputable forensics program somewhere in central NJ with AM private general practice and PM forensics (meeting with paralegals/attorneys and completing my evals). In any case, I have been fortunate enough to have very close contact and friendships with some of the big forensic names in the East. These guys have probably the most cush lifestyles, rarely are home after 4PM, make around $300,000, and are the happiest bastards I have yet to meet with an MD/DO behind their name. At the same time, there hasn't been a classmate or peer who hasn't asked me "what is forensic psychiatry?" Me thinks that most of these superstars keep this field on a hush for a reason. Meanwhile, numerous forensics fellowships went unfilled this year.
 
Man...whopper makes forensics sound like an OK job...then this guy above and Anasazi make forensics sound like the greatest field on earth. This is so confusing!
 
I wouldn't exactly state its as if its the greatest job.

I mentioned this before in other posts.

There are expert witnesses making tons of money, several of them willing to say anything passable for the right amount of money. Its intellectually dishonest, and at least for myself, I'd rather earn a typical general psychiatrist's salary than resort to that.

But even if you want to get to that level, assuming you want to be an honest forensic psychiatrist you do have to do quite a lot of work in the field to establish connections, credentials & experience. A forensic fellowship will greatly advance you in that. Doing that extra work will entail work that is IMHO more difficult than being a general psychiatrist.

Running a forensic unit-which is what I'm doing now involves being in charge of patients who are in general more violent, more antisocial, more manipulative, and have more extreme levels of psychosis &/or mania. That by itself is more of a challenge vs someone running a general psychiatric unit. However factor in that you have to write forensic reports on these patients (which can be 3-50 hrs depending on the report, usually on average being 5 hrs a report) about 1 report every 2 weeks, in addition to having all the responsibilities a general psychiatrist would have--admission, interviewing, medication monitoring etc---that really is more work than a general psychiatrist--but you're earning the same amount of pay if you're working on a state run forensic facility as your general psychiatry colleagues.

To get to the point where you can be a good expert witness--you have to do some of the above type of work for some time.

And I've mentioned this before. Don't just go into this field expecting to become wealthy. That's going to make someone more likely to want to sell out and claim some criminal who's not mentally ill deserves a mental health defense. I already see enough of that going on.

I've also seen several people do a forensic fellowship and get no where with it. They end up doing general psychiatry work, and have problems finding a niche into the forensic infrastructure.
 
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but didn't want to start a new one for this question. Just read a blog post by the Last Psychiatrist about a malpractice suit involving a missed NMS diagnosis. Do forensic psychiatrists testify as expert witnesses during these or is their work more limited to criminal law? Thanks.
 
I wouldn't exactly state its as if its the greatest job.

I mentioned this before in other posts.

There are expert witnesses making tons of money, several of them willing to say anything passable for the right amount of money. Its intellectually dishonest, and at least for myself, I'd rather earn a typical general psychiatrist's salary than resort to that.

But even if you want to get to that level, assuming you want to be an honest forensic psychiatrist you do have to do quite a lot of work in the field to establish connections, credentials & experience. A forensic fellowship will greatly advance you in that. Doing that extra work will entail work that is IMHO more difficult than being a general psychiatrist.

Running a forensic unit-which is what I'm doing now involves being in charge of patients who are in general more violent, more antisocial, more manipulative, and have more extreme levels of psychosis &/or mania. That by itself is more of a challenge vs someone running a general psychiatric unit. However factor in that you have to write forensic reports on these patients (which can be 3-50 hrs depending on the report, usually on average being 5 hrs a report) about 1 report every 2 weeks, in addition to having all the responsibilities a general psychiatrist would have--admission, interviewing, medication monitoring etc---that really is more work than a general psychiatrist--but you're earning the same amount of pay if you're working on a state run forensic facility as your general psychiatry colleagues.

To get to the point where you can be a good expert witness--you have to do some of the above type of work for some time.

And I've mentioned this before. Don't just go into this field expecting to become wealthy. That's going to make someone more likely to want to sell out and claim some criminal who's not mentally ill deserves a mental health defense. I already see enough of that going on.

I've also seen several people do a forensic fellowship and get no where with it. They end up doing general psychiatry work, and have problems finding a niche into the forensic infrastructure.

The few guys I know don't step foot in a forensics unit or attend to any prisons. They are big fish in small ponds and basically pick and choose from all local. private cases. Cases involve emotional suffering post MVA to sexual harassment suits. They work in small to medium sized cities and are probably on speed dial for all of the powerhouse attorney groups in the region. They work by the "inch per hour" rule with the usual $450/hr fee. Obviously, they receive a nice retainer prior to even opening the chart.
 
I wouldn't exactly state its as if its the greatest job.

I mentioned this before in other posts.

There are expert witnesses making tons of money, several of them willing to say anything passable for the right amount of money. Its intellectually dishonest, and at least for myself, I'd rather earn a typical general psychiatrist's salary than resort to that.

But even if you want to get to that level, assuming you want to be an honest forensic psychiatrist you do have to do quite a lot of work in the field to establish connections, credentials & experience. A forensic fellowship will greatly advance you in that. Doing that extra work will entail work that is IMHO more difficult than being a general psychiatrist.

Running a forensic unit-which is what I'm doing now involves being in charge of patients who are in general more violent, more antisocial, more manipulative, and have more extreme levels of psychosis &/or mania. That by itself is more of a challenge vs someone running a general psychiatric unit. However factor in that you have to write forensic reports on these patients (which can be 3-50 hrs depending on the report, usually on average being 5 hrs a report) about 1 report every 2 weeks, in addition to having all the responsibilities a general psychiatrist would have--admission, interviewing, medication monitoring etc---that really is more work than a general psychiatrist--but you're earning the same amount of pay if you're working on a state run forensic facility as your general psychiatry colleagues.

To get to the point where you can be a good expert witness--you have to do some of the above type of work for some time.

And I've mentioned this before. Don't just go into this field expecting to become wealthy. That's going to make someone more likely to want to sell out and claim some criminal who's not mentally ill deserves a mental health defense. I already see enough of that going on.

I've also seen several people do a forensic fellowship and get no where with it. They end up doing general psychiatry work, and have problems finding a niche into the forensic infrastructure.

You make it sound as though it's a worse job than general psych and that it doesn't pay well.

Have you already done a forensics fellowship? If so, why would anyone do a fellowship to have a more difficult job that doesn't pay well?

There has to be some catch. Is the plan to get into a forensic psych private practice in the future?
 
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What if you just want to run a machine of a private practice that specializes only in Independent Psychiatric Evaluations (IMEs)? Doing these in order to determine Fitness For Duty/Return To Work, Disability Claims, Personal Injury Claims, etc? Can you graduate a forensics fellowship and get right into that without having to work on a forensic unit?
 
What if you just want to run a machine of a private practice that specializes only in Independent Psychiatric Evaluations (IMEs)? Doing these in order to determine Fitness For Duty/Return To Work, Disability Claims, Personal Injury Claims, etc? Can you graduate a forensics fellowship and get right into that without having to work on a forensic unit?

I've met a lot of forensic psychiatrists at this point, and I think it's important to clarify some of the concepts being discussed.

You really do have to understand that forensics is a sort of "field within a field," and that there are many, many different things one can do with the advanced training.

AAPL recommends that all forensic psychiatrists maintain a private practice, or otherwise engage in direct patient care. This, aside from having practical benefits, prevents one from appearing as a "hired gun" which serves no bad purpose other than losing credibility in court. Depending on your political persuasion, and on the concept of absolute benficience as a physician, there is nothing inherently wrong in doing full-time forensic practice, but it carries with it a stigma of being less credible in front of a jury.

We also have to make the deliniation between inpatient forensic unit or jail psychiatry, and private or "civil" forensic practice. The two can be vastly different, as well as the pay.

On a forensic inpatient unit, you may get a few thousand above the normal psych attending salary, and your work will essentially be like a cross between inpatient and jail psychiatry. In private civil forensics, you are paid by lawyers by check, work in an office (usually), and have no treatment role. To some psychiatrists, this is a great pleasure; others have a difficult time putting their treatment hat on the rack and objectively evaluating a patient, while telling them, "we won't see each other again, and whatever we discuss is not confidential, as it will be contained in a report that will be read before the court. I won't be prescribing any medicine to you, and will not make treatment recommendations." Personally, I find this liberating at times.

Money in civil forensics can be great. You'll be paid, once you have a steady flow of cases, on the average of $250-$500 / hour, and the off-time would theoretically be spent seeing clinical patients. These evals can consist of IMEs, malpractice case reviews, wrongful death or dangerousness evaluations, will contestations (working on one right now), and many other types.

The more forensic work I do exclusively, the more I tend to miss clinical psych. However, I see around 100 patients/month in moonlighting, so that itch remained mostly scratched. If I were to do forensics full time, however, I could quickly see my clinical skills deteriorate to a degree, I would think, and it's very easy to let yourself slip out of the cutting-edge in practice. I can already feel that my knowledge base in modern psych is slightly off its game, as I've been so focused on forensics while in fellowship. I plan to rectify this after June when the fellowship ends.

It's a great career, but I can't imagine it's for everyone. You need to be a good writer. You need to have a thicker skin. You need to be comfortable seeing someone who is obviously suffering, and waving goodbye and wishing them good luck. You also need to present yourself somewhat differently, and ideally, should be cucumber-cool even on your third re-cross while on the stand. You also need to develop a legal mind - it's quite different than the purely clinical one we normally live in. It's not about justice. It's not about truth. It's all about the game that's played in our adversarial legal system, and who has the better evidence.

I think it would take a lifetime to get all these skills under control - in that sense, it's a lifelong challenge.
 
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Have you already done a forensics fellowship? If so, why would anyone do a fellowship to have a more difficult job that doesn't pay well?

There has to be some catch. Is the plan to get into a forensic psych private practice in the future?

Oh there is. Just as Anasazi mentioned.

Just to let you know, I haven't done a forensic fellowship yet. I'll be starting in July. I got accepted to a few programs, but I really wanted U. of Cincinnati because Resnick, Kennedy & Mossman teach here. I was accepted to start in the 2010 academic year, and they arranged for me to work as an attending for 1 year at the forensic institution. I saw it as a good option because it allowed me to earn some money while also having learning oppurtunities in forensics I wouldn't have elsewhere, while attending the #1 program I wanted to attend.

At the place I'm at, there's a good structured setting for beginners. I got a forensic director, I'm working with other forensic psychiatrists, and I've been on the stand about 25 times so far. I've been able to attend forensic lectures, grand rounds and do some work only forensic fellows could do since the institution has the fellowship.

So far at my own job, I've done about 10 competency reports, an NGRI report, 15 forced medication hearings, 30 forensic review team examinations (deciding if an NGRI patient is safe enough to be advanced to a lower security level with more freedom or discharge) and I'm surrounded by several forensic psychiatrists which gives me a leg up.

But working for the state as I mentioned pays pretty much the same as a general psychiatrist. With the fellowship, that'll land me about an additional $5-7K a year which isn't much considering the training because additional post residency degrees add to the state pay grade.

Some people continue to work for the state--and advance to higher positions in the state. E.g. my director--well I don't exactly know how much more he makes because of that position, but he's now administration in a highly respected state facility. If he were to want to start a private practice, that really ups his credentials.

I'd reccomend this job as a starting position because it gives on the job training, and would make one a much more prized candidate when applying to forensic fellowship, but as I mentioned, a state facility forensic psychiatrist is more work, more challenges, about the same pay.

On a forensic inpatient unit, you may get a few thousand above the normal psych attending salary, and your work will essentially be like a cross between inpatient and jail psychiatry.

Exactly, and this is a route several forensic psychiatrists go. Some FPs just really want the structure of a daily job with nice state benefits. Private practice/expert witness is scary to some--they need to develop the connections, reputation, and may feel working without the daily structure is like working without a safety net. Of the expert witnesses I've seen, several of them have worked in a situation like this one for some time before taking the expert witness leap.

A thing I'm considering doing is after fellowship, continue to work at the same place on a part time basis only, and start doing side forensic work on a private basis, which is what one of my colleagues who graduated is doing. The facility is well aware that forensics requires unstructured hours, and allows FPs to not be present on the unit in case they have to go to court. Most places will not allow this. Its a nice aspect of site, and will allow me to keep a good network of FPs, do private work, but also have a structured job with good state benefits.
 
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I've also seen several people do a forensic fellowship and get no where with it. They end up doing general psychiatry work, and have problems finding a niche into the forensic infrastructure.

Are more opportunities available for someone who completes fellowships in both child & adolescent psychiatry AND forensic psychiatry? In other words, is the risk of getting "no where with it" less for a child & adolescent forensic psychiatrist?
 
Are more opportunities available for someone who completes fellowships in both child & adolescent psychiatry AND forensic psychiatry? In other words, is the risk of getting "no where with it" less for a child & adolescent forensic psychiatrist?

I would REALLY like to know if anyone has info on this as well.......this is the exact field I would like to go into, and there is such little info on it...
 
Doing both would up your cred in terms of child custody cases or any forensic/child cases. They do occasionally pop up from time to time. Aside from custody, there could be a child/psychosis/crime case--a 15 year old for example who commits a crime. Pulling in a combined C&A/Forensic psychiatrist is very helpful.

But its much more specialized as well which can bring in some risks as well.

Look at it this way--a neurosurgeon just like a forensic psychiatrist just can't open an office anywhere and expect work to come his/her way. Both are specialized fields. Brain surgery requires that the work be performed in a highly structured & specialized setting--usually an advanced university hospital. Forensic psychiatry often times requies a metropolitan setting because there's more courts & cases.

Of course there's advantages with that, but there's also increased risks of eventually settling down in a job that doesn't utilize all the talents of the person.

Just as I mentioned, I've seen psychiatrists who graduated from forensic fellowship, and don't end up working in forensic psychiatry, or end up working in the type of job I have-which is harder & the same pay as a general psychiatrist.

Forensics is a specialized field. You can look in the job openings and there'll be less openings for that type of psychiatrist. There'll be even less wanting a combined C&A & Forensics. However if you play your cards right, exploiting both degrees can be useful. You could specialize in child forensic cases, or become an academic expert in that area.
 
I appreciate all the replies and of course I have more questions. I am thinking that I would like to have a civil forensics psychiatry practice in combination with a small private outpatient practice.

It seems that estabilishing yourself with the civil practice relies heavily on personal/professional connections that I am sure you begin to develop while you are a fellow. I know that there will be teachings on supreme court rulings and how they are applied to current state law but I also know that the law is different in each state and during your fellowship you will be operating under your state law. I am curious about how strongly people feel about completing your fellowship in the area where you plan to settle versus biting the bullet and living in a less desirable city for one year to go to the more prestigious (for lack of a better term) program.

Also, should I take it as a bad sign that no one has made any comments about Emory, Georgetown, or California programs? Is this one of the "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" moments?
 
One thing I've been curious about: I'm interested in doing prison psychiatry or working with inmates and those in the legal system in some other environment.

How beneficial is a forensic fellowship if your primary interest is in treatment of those in the system? If you have zero interest in acting as the professional witness or private consultant, is the forensic fellowship a good investment of time?
 
One thing I've been curious about: I'm interested in doing prison psychiatry or working with inmates and those in the legal system in some other environment.

How beneficial is a forensic fellowship if your primary interest is in treatment of those in the system? If you have zero interest in acting as the professional witness or private consultant, is the forensic fellowship a good investment of time?

I think it's great that you want to work with prisoners - the need is enormous!

I really liked the PBS frontline episode "The Released" about the mentally ill who are released from prisons. You can watch the whole thing here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/released/view/

However, aside from pure altruism why would anyone want to work in that environment? I imagine that it would be highly dissatisfying for anyone but Mother Teressa. Are there benefits to working in prisons besides good karma?
 
I hear California pays very well if you work in the prison system.

From my own experience, you don't have to have a forensics fellowship to work in prison. However such experience may be helpful. Often times in prison, the forensic aspect may not be enough because you're usually working more in a clinical capacity there, but some prison psychiatry jobs I've seen do specifically want forensic trained psychiatrists.

Someone from my program went immediately to work in the prison system. He never did any of the work you'd expect forensic psychiatrists to do in terms of writing reports to the court or expert evaluations.

He however did have prison specific situations....e.g. plenty of malingerers feigning suicidal ideation--which is handled in a very non-hospital like manner---put the person in suicide watch cell, make them wear a ferguson smock or a paper towel tunic (which is pretty much impossible to hang oneself with), put the person in a room that's uncomfortable cold, but not in a physically harmful manner (e.g. 60 f), the light is uncomfortably bright, and give the person "discipline" burgers until they just happen to stop feeling suidical.

And if you've never seen a Ferguson smock...
http://www.preventsuicide.com/
http://www.preventsuicide.com/products.htm

And if you don't know what a discipline burger is, can't find a link about one..its a vegetarian burger designed to taste bland, but have all the nutrition one needs to stay alive.

I am curious about how strongly people feel about completing your fellowship in the area where you plan to settle versus biting the bullet and living in a less desirable city for one year to go to the more prestigious (for lack of a better term) program.

I think its going to depend on the forensic structure of the local area. For example, I've seen one area where some forensic psychiatrits want to keep their pay high and keep competition limited. They are not welcome to others coming into the area & may try to shun a newcomer. Others--and usually forensic fellowships are of this nature, are open arms, and want to spread the knowledge, which in turns opens the connections. The better programs have PDs that will do what they can to help you with your career. If you are not a graduate of that program, but called and asked about what you could do to become connected with it, I'd think they'd have a more open attitude.

Emory, Georgetown, or California programs?
I didn't interview at any of these. One of the current fellows at my program did interview at some of these. He still chose U. of Cincinnati. I don't know if its just that he & I have the same EMDR profile or what but everything he liked about UC, I like about it too. I don't want to give his opinions about those programs because they're his, not mine, and its not fair to say his pros & cons about the program when I didn't experience them first hand, and know little about them.
 
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I really liked the PBS frontline episode "The Released" about the mentally ill who are released from prisons. You can watch the whole thing here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/released/view/
Thanks for the link. I'll give that a watch tonight.
However, aside from pure altruism why would anyone want to work in that environment? I imagine that it would be highly dissatisfying for anyone but Mother Teressa. Are there benefits to working in prisons besides good karma?
I'm still in med school, so there's plenty of time to have the veil lifted, but from several of the folks who work corrections psych I've talked to, they seem to really like their jobs. They've said there's a real reward in working with those who've completely slipped through the cracks. It seems to take a certain mindset and personality. I'll be doing a one month jail psych rotation in a couple of months. Hopefully I'll learn a lot more if it's a good fit.

Also, in California, as whopper pointed out, the pay is pretty good. Not sure how it is around the rest of the country.
 
From my own experience, you don't have to have a forensics fellowship to work in prison. However such experience may be helpful. Often times in prison, the forensic aspect may not be enough because you're usually working more in a clinical capacity there, but some prison psychiatry jobs I've seen do specifically want forensic trained psychiatrists.
Thanks for the info. When the time comes, is it fairly easy to distinguish fellowship programs that emphasize clinical treatment vs. those that emphasize the witness side of things?
He however did have prison specific situations....e.g. plenty of malingerers feigning suicidal ideation--which is handled in a very non-hospital like manner---
Oh boy. Some of that will be interesting to try to deal with. It'll be interesting to learn more. Thanks for the tips. And the link to the Ferguson smocks. I'm pretty sure I haven't come across these in the hospital linen closet...
 
I never heard of a Ferguson smock until I started working in a forensic facility. We don't use them here, but the local jail does. My buddy who went to work in the prison system-his prison uses gowns made of a paper towel like fabric--that'll tear with easy pressure.

I've seen ads in the APA's newspapers detailing how much the California prison system is willing to pay. If I remember correctly, they were asking for forensically trained psychiatrists, though the training was not necessary.

In NJ, all the psychiatrists I've seen who worked in prison didn't have forensic training, and really didn't need it since they were usually working in a clinical capacity only.

I have heard of the "bad guard" phenomenon from NJ psychiatrists working in prison-piss off a guard, that guard isn't going to exactly come to your aid should one of the prisoners become violent with you. Don't know if this is a national prison culture thing or what.
 
I've seen ads in the APA's newspapers detailing how much the California prison system is willing to pay. If I remember correctly, they were asking for forensically trained psychiatrists, though the training was not necessary.
If the ads are to be believed, they'll take folks fresh out of residency. Starting pay in the $230's for residency, $260's for fellowship plus experience.

From my gloss of the job reqs, it sounds as if you're very much a Department of Corrections employee, with 12 legal holidays off and two weeks vacation. I can see this rubbing lots of folks the wrong way.
 
Don't know the state regs in California.

In Ohio--a state job you get 4 weeks off, plus about 1 week of personal time. You get pretty much all the holidays off--forgot how many that comes out to per year--about 10-12. Pay is about 135K/year which isn't high. The pay is much less than California-though I'm not exactly sure how much the expensive cost of living in California factors into this.

The way the pension system works is in addition to the state equivalent of the 401K (forgot what its called). You work 30 years, you get 50% of your salary for the rest of your life in pension. That has caused some docs on the verge of retirement to start working crazy hours so they could retire on a 200K or more salary.

But all this could change. The current gov is majorly slashing state budgets and wants to cut state pay by about 5% and get rid of several holidays.

NJ-psychiatrists earn about 195K year, similar situation as above but you need to work 25 years before the 1/2 salary pension comes in.

(Factor in that cost of living in Ohio is about 25% less than NJ).

NJ

The California situation--I hear they are desperate for psychiatrists to work in the prison system.
 
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