Resign Commission?

[goosefraba1]

I'm prepared to feel the burn on this,

I've been reading similar past posts. I'm currently a PA in occupational medicine civilian side. Last May, I joined ANG. In my contract, I was promised a sign-on bonus. This money was supposed to off-set my student loans. 30 days after swearing in, the hammer drops and bonuses are frozen. It is now February, and still nothing. It is looking more and more likely that the bonus will be cancelled. I have spoken to the retention officer. Apparently, I am in the grey area where I have been lumped in with the people that swore in AFTER bonuses were cancelled. Thus, I will not b getting the bonus.

Now, I did not join because I wanted to make money, but I didn't join to lose money either. If they can renege on my bonus (nulling the contract), I should be able to do the same. Although, this is their ball/their court.

I have since signed a contract with orthopedic surgery, which begins in April. It is a protected salary x 1 year, and then goes to an RVU contract. This means that I will have larger bonuses, but can't afford to be out on every 1-2 week mission/training that the wing wants me to do.

So, at this point it looks like I have 3 options:
A- Just suck it up, and honor my commitment= decreased pay 1 year from now civilian side, no bonus military side
B- Switch to IRR if they let me= 7 years of commitment in IRR (things look hairy in middle east), still no military bonus, should have much better numbers for civilian bonus
C- Resign commission entirely= is this even an option? I'm guessing that my contract locks me into the IRR.

Also, any help what to use on my reasoning for conditional release?

Thanks

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[idq1i]

I bet you the $ value of your bonus that there is a "needs of the service" clause at the end of your contract that effectively negates your otherwise valid complaint. Trying to get out on the basis on a non-payment of a bonus would probably involve a very expensive attorney and a protracted battle that you won't win.

Here's my (M.D.) contract clause
I understand that all financial inducements and benefits, including, but not limited to, basic pay, housing allowances, health care benefits, bonuses, professional pay, variable incentive pay, special pay, commissary privileges, retirement benefits, annual leave, and other benefits are either statutory or regulatory are subject to change at any time without notice and any subsequent loss of such financial inducements or benefits by virtue of a statutory, regulatory, or policy change shall not release me from any obligations incurred under this contract.

 

[goosefraba1]

Good point. What then would be the odds of me being accepted into IRR if were to attempt to switch over? Is this something that is likely to be shot down?

Honestly, I would be likely to suck it up if it were truly 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year as advertised. All of these extra trainings for CERFP is really the part that messes with my civilian position.

 

[Shikima]

Could change jobs to the VA and double-dip?

 

[goosefraba1]

Could change jobs to the VA and double-dip?

No way that VA can pay me what Ortho can, unfortunately. This Ortho position is my dream job. I get to work 2 days surgery/3 days clinic, no call/no weekends (1 weekend day per month of rounding). With bonuses, it almost doubles my current compensation working in occmed (which is still above the 75th percentile for a 2nd year PA).

 

[TheEarDoc]

Could change jobs to the VA and double-dip?

You can't double dip. You get military leave that is unpaid by the VA and you get drill pay or you use vacation days to get VA pay and drill pay. You cannot use military leave and get VA pay though. Sometimes you can get endorsement pay if you drill pay would be significantly lower than your VA pay though, but you have to push for it.

Granted the VA would be the most friendly reserve/NG employer you could get other than some state agencies, but still they have some pretty strict policies on leave and pay.

 

[TheEarDoc]

No way that VA can pay me what Ortho can, unfortunately. This Ortho position is my dream job. I get to work 2 days surgery/3 days clinic, no call/no weekends (1 weekend day per month of rounding). With bonuses, it almost doubles my current compensation working in occmed (which is still above the 75th percentile for a 2nd year PA).

Not trying to pick at you or anything, but you're raking in this much cash on bonuses in the private sector, why are you worried about the military bonus (which I am sure if you looked at the fine print you would see probably is pennies on the dollar compared to private sector bonuses)? If you were raking in that much in bonuses you were probably able to pay on the loans without needing uncle sam to throw anything into the pot. Also you do know if you fail a fitness test or a whole slew of other things that bonus (which is paid out in taxed installments over several years of your contract) is cancelled right? Gotta read the fine print on it.

I do not foresee going IRR this early in your contract. I see them telling you drill or get a dishonorable discharge.

My advice is talk to them about seeing if you would qualify for endorsement pay if your private sector gig pays so much better than what the drill pay would pay with all the other benefits thrown in. You might be able to have them match you (though I don't think they would match bonuses, just base salary).

 

[Shikima]

You can't double dip. You get military leave that is unpaid by the VA and you get drill pay or you use vacation days to get VA pay and drill pay. You cannot use military leave and get VA pay though. Sometimes you can get endorsement pay if you drill pay would be significantly lower than your VA pay though, but you have to push for it.

Granted the VA would be the most friendly reserve/NG employer you could get other than some state agencies, but still they have some pretty strict policies on leave and pay.

With the VA and as a drilling reservist, you are allowed some nebulous times where you can still receive your VA pay while doing reservist duties. I think you get a finite amount thought.... 15-20 days/year?

 

[TheEarDoc]

With the VA and as a drilling reservist, you are allowed some nebulous times where you can still receive your VA pay while doing reservist duties. I think you get a finite amount thought.... 15-20 days/year?

It's military leave and I think it's 20 days a year and it's without pay. You basically are on approved absence and can either take the Va pay or the drill pay but you can't double dip.

 

[TheEarDoc]

It's military leave and I think it's 20 days a year and it's without pay. You basically are on approved absence and can either take the Va pay or the drill pay but you can't double dip.

Well nevermind, I decided to take a look since this is something that will come up for me being a future reservist and VA employee:

Fact Sheet: Military Leave

An employee is entitled to time off at full pay for certain types of active or inactive duty in the National Guard or as a Reserve of the Armed Forces.

Coverage
Any full-time Federal civilian employee whose appointment is not limited to 1 year is entitled to military leave. Military leave under 5 U.S.C. 6323(a) is prorated for part-time career employees and employees on an uncommon tour of duty.

Types of Military Leave
5 U.S.C. 6323 (a) provides 15 days per fiscal year for active duty, active duty training, and inactive duty training. An employee can carry over a maximum of 15 days into the next fiscal year.

Inactive Duty Training is authorized training performed by members of a Reserve component not on active duty and performed in connection with the prescribed activities of the Reserve component. It consists of regularly scheduled unit training periods, additional training periods, and equivalent training. For further information, see Department of Defense Instruction Number 1215.6, March 14, 1997

5 U.S.C. 6323 (b) provides 22 workdays per calendar year for emergency duty as ordered by the President, the Secretary of Defense, or a State Governor. This leave is provided for employees who perform military duties in support of civil authorities in the protection of life and property or who perform full-time military service as a result of a call or order to active duty in support of a contingency operation* as defined in section 101(a)(13) of title 10, United States Code.

5 U.S.C. 6323(c) provides unlimited military leave to members of the National Guard of the District of Columbia for certain types of duty ordered or authorized under title 49 of the District of Columbia Code.

5 U.S.C. 6323(d) provides that Reserve and National Guard Technicians only are entitled to 44 workdays of military leave for duties overseas under certain conditions.

* The term "contingency operation" means a military operation that-

• (a) is designated by the Secretary of Defense as an operation in which members of the armed forces are or may become involved in military actions, operations, or hostilities against an enemy of the United States or against an opposing military force; or
• (b) results in the call or order to, or retention on, active duty of members of the uniformed services under section 688, 12301(a), 12302, 12304, 12305, or 12406 of title 10, United States Code, chapter 15 of title 10, United States Code, or any other provision of law during a war or during a national emergency declared by the President or Congress.

Days of Leave
Military leave should be credited to a full-time employee on the basis of an 8-hour workday. The minimum charge to leave is 1 hour. An employee may be charged military leave only for hours that the employee would otherwise have worked and received pay.

Employees who request military leave for inactive duty training (which generally is 2, 4, or 6 hours in length) will now be charged only the amount of military leave necessary to cover the period of training and necessary travel. Members of the Reserves or and National Guard will no longer be charged military leave for weekends and holidays that occur within the period of military service.

A full-time employ working a 40-hour workweek will accrue 120 hours (15 days x 8 hours) of military leave in a fiscal year, or the equivalent of three 40-hour workweeks. Military leave under 6323(a) will be prorated for part-time employees and for employees on uncommon tours of duty based proportionally on the number of hours in the employee's regularly scheduled biweekly pay period.

Examples

Hours in the regularly scheduled biweekly pay period Ratio of hours in the regularly scheduled pay period to an 80-hour pay period
(the number of hours in the pay period 80) Hours of military leave accrued each fiscal year Pay Periods of military leave accrued each fiscal year
40 .5 (40 80) .5 x 120 = 60 hours 1.5 40-hour pay periods
106 1.325 (106 80) 1.325 x 120 = 159 hours 1.5 106-hour pay periods
120 1.5 (120 80) 1.5 x 120 = 180 hours 1.5 120-hour pay periods
144 1.8 (144 80) 1.8 x 120 = 216 hours 1.5 144-hour pay periods


Effect on Civilian Pay
An employee's civilian pay remains the same for periods of military leave under 5 U.S.C. 6323(a), including any premium pay (except Sunday premium pay) an employee would have received if not on military leave. For military leave under 5 U.S.C. 6323(b) and (c), an employee's civilian pay is reduced by the amount of military pay for the days of military leave. However, an employee may choose not to take military leave and instead take annual leave, compensatory time off for travel, or sick leave, if appropriate, in order to retain both civilian and military pay.

So in short it looks like as long as you are doing inactive drill duties for reserves/NG you can double dip and get your VA paycheck and your drill pay for at least 15 days or 120 hours. If you want to get paid your VA salary and drill pay for anything beyond that you have to use accrued leave or sick leave. If you are deployed then or MOB'd then it looks like you would have to take the drill pay and go without VA pay, but one could ask for endorsement pay if your drill pay would be significantly lower than your VA pay.

There you have it.

 

[notdeadyet]

It's military leave and I think it's 20 days a year and it's without pay. You basically are on approved absence and can either take the Va pay or the drill pay but you can't double dip.

It is 15 days pear year, but you can carry up to a total of 30 in a given year if you don't use the previous.

You get your regular VA pay during this time, minus your drill pay. So you can't double dip, but you still make your regular salary at the end of the day.

 

[TheEarDoc]

It is 15 days pear year, but you can carry up to a total of 30 in a given year if you don't use the previous.

You get your regular VA pay during this time, minus your drill pay. So you can't double dip, but you still make your regular salary at the end of the day.

Thanks for the clarification! Quick question; if you use accrued leave/comp time/sick leave to cover days of drilling (say for the summer camp drill) do you then get full VA pay plus the drill pay?

 

[goosefraba1]

Not trying to pick at you or anything, but you're raking in this much cash on bonuses in the private sector, why are you worried about the military bonus (which I am sure if you looked at the fine print you would see probably is pennies on the dollar compared to private sector bonuses)? If you were raking in that much in bonuses you were probably able to pay on the loans without needing uncle sam to throw anything into the pot. Also you do know if you fail a fitness test or a whole slew of other things that bonus (which is paid out in taxed installments over several years of your contract) is cancelled right? Gotta read the fine print on it.

I do not foresee going IRR this early in your contract. I see them telling you drill or get a dishonorable discharge.

My advice is talk to them about seeing if you would qualify for endorsement pay if your private sector gig pays so much better than what the drill pay would pay with all the other benefits thrown in. You might be able to have them match you (though I don't think they would match bonuses, just base salary).

Again, I'm not quite as worried about the Military bonus as much as I am the civilian bonus (which is based on how many RVUs I generate), and my civilian salary actually going down if I don't meet the numbers.

If I am ineligible for IRR, that leaves me with two options then.

A: Suck it up = more than likely no military bonus, more than likely a loss in bonuses civilian side, and possible decrease in civilian pay.
C. Resign= civilian bonus, keep my civilian base salary.

Looking through the 36-3209 regs, it looks like I wouldn't qualify for an honorable discharge. I doubt that they would let me out on hardship considering my income level/wife's income.

That brings me to the general discharge: "2.46.2. Resignation Resulting in General Discharge. When the separation or discharge authority does not accept a resignation tendered by an officer because the officer's records indicate that the officer is not entitled to an Honorable discharge, the officer may tender a resignation under this paragraph with the understanding that, if the resignation is accepted, the officer will receive a Under Honorable Conditions (General) Discharge."

Hindsight, I wish that I would have had a better understanding before signing the contract to begin with. Is my life really that bad? No. I just want to get out from under the thumb of my student loans, and I thought that the military would help, and not hinder, with this.

 

[idq1i]

that brings me to the general discharge: "2.46.2. Resignation Resulting in General Discharge. When the separation or discharge authority does not accept a resignation tendered by an officer because the officer's records indicate that the officer is not entitled to an Honorable discharge, the officer may tender a resignation under this paragraph with the understanding that, if the resignation is accepted, the officer will receive a Under Honorable Conditions (General) Discharge."

a - The military generally wants their pound of flesh. Even if they end up jettisoning you,
b - Do you really want to spend the rest of your professional life explaining a general discharge? Look it up - it's not exactly a positive. Not as bad as dishonorable, but not exactly glowing, especially when it comes to medical personnel.

 

[Apollyon]

a - The military generally wants their pound of flesh. Even if they end up jettisoning you,
b - Do you really want to spend the rest of your professional life explaining a general discharge? Look it up - it's not exactly a positive. Not as bad as dishonorable, but not exactly glowing, especially when it comes to medical personnel.

Exactly. If you don't need asterisks, don't get them.

 

[IlDestriero]

Trying to separate from the military during your period of obligated some over money is pretty sad.
If you can't afford to do your mandatory drill time and you are so desperate for money, give up 2 weeks of your vacation time to cover the drill time.
You made the commitment, honor it.
You don't want anything other than an honorable discharge, and if you get one, it will come back and haunt you. And people like me will likely never hire you. Unless you live in Illinois, where we would not hire you for some other reason.

 

[notdeadyet]

Thanks for the clarification! Quick question; if you use accrued leave/comp time/sick leave to cover days of drilling (say for the summer camp drill) do you then get full VA pay plus the drill pay?

If you use leave or comp time, you can take full drill pay. I'm not sure about using sick time for this. I doubt it, but I have nothing written to back that up.

 

[notdeadyet]

You don't want anything other than an honorable discharge, and if you get one, it will come back and haunt you. And people like me will likely never hire you.

Ditto IlDestriero.

And his opinion is far from unique. Anyone with anything other than a honorable/medical discharge is going to see a lot of shut doors. Other than honorable raises the question of integrity issues and that is like the plague in medicine.

 

[TheEarDoc]

If you use leave or comp time, you can take full drill pay. I'm not sure about using sick time for this. I doubt it, but I have nothing written to back that up.

Thanks for the clarification. After looking at the rules I posted it looks like one can use any type of leave to cover drill time. OK I am done hijacking this thread.