Residents sent to Physicians Health Programs (PHP) or Sham Psych Evals to push them out of residency

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Also, since I didn’t have the 30k to pay the rehab upfront they let me pay only the 15k I begged everyone in my family for and said I could pay the rest in monthly installments, and on my last day when I told them I planned on suing them they NEVER collected the rest. It’s been a year and a half. Now tell me, why would a place that demanded 30k up front be willing to just let go of the other 15k? Well because they knew I wouldn’t go through all the effort to sue them for only 15k and then didn’t want the bad publicity. If that doesn’t admit fault I don’t know what does




Just because someone doesn't agree that all residents are perfect little angels who should never face professional discipline doesn't mean they're gunning to chair a PHP. Many of us can't stand PHPs and medical boards, but we have the objectivity to see that sometimes professional intervention is necessary. The real problem, in my book, is those that blindly support all residents/med students/physicians no matter what the problem.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Also, since I didn’t have the 30k to pay the rehab upfront they let me pay only the 15k I begged everyone in my family for and said I could pay the rest in monthly installments, and on my last day when I told them I planned on suing them they NEVER collected the rest. It’s been a year and a half. Now tell me, why would a place that demanded 30k up front be willing to just let go of the other 15k? Well because they knew I wouldn’t go through all the effort to sue them for only 15k and then didn’t want the bad publicity. If that doesn’t admit fault I don’t know what does

Thank you for sharing this! Would you please elaborate on what happened to you and how you end up in PHP? How did you ensure your job was safe?
 
Thank you for sharing this! Would you please elaborate on what happened to you and how you end up in PHP? How did you ensure your job was safe?
The entirety of @Squirtlecharmanderr 's SDN output is in this single thread. I'm sure if you start at page 1 and work your way through, you'll find it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Now tell me, why would a place that demanded 30k up front be willing to just let go of the other 15k? Well because they knew I wouldn’t go through all the effort to sue them for only 15k and then didn’t want the bad publicity. If that doesn’t admit fault I don’t know what does
This really doesn't admit fault as you're making unjustified assumptions. Maybe they don't expect to actually get $30k from most people and so are happy with $15k. Maybe they think it's not worth the effort. Maybe they think the press will be bad even if they feel they aren't doing anything wrong. Maybe they lost the paperwork or just lost track of what you owe. Maybe they didn't want to provoke your lawsuit by sending a bill, and not because they think they'd lose the suit but because they don't want to deal with all that time, expense, and mess.

Sure, it could be that they feel guilty, but that's far from the obvious explanation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
This really doesn't admit fault as you're making unjustified assumptions. Maybe they don't expect to actually get $30k from most people and so are happy with $15k. Maybe they think it's not worth the effort. Maybe they think the press will be bad even if they feel they aren't doing anything wrong. Maybe they lost the paperwork or just lost track of what you owe. Maybe they didn't want to provoke your lawsuit by sending a bill, and not because they think they'd lose the suit but because they don't want to deal with all that time, expense, and mess.

Sure, it could be that they feel guilty, but that's far from the obvious explanation.
^This.

Look, the "treatment" probably cost them $5K, maybe $10K. You've already made them more than a handsome enough profit. The hassle you'd cause them isn't worth the gold-plated toilet upgrade on the yacht that the extra $15K was going to get them so why bother.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This really doesn't admit fault as you're making unjustified assumptions. Maybe they don't expect to actually get $30k from most people and so are happy with $15k. Maybe they think it's not worth the effort. Maybe they think the press will be bad even if they feel they aren't doing anything wrong. Maybe they lost the paperwork or just lost track of what you owe. Maybe they didn't want to provoke your lawsuit by sending a bill, and not because they think they'd lose the suit but because they don't want to deal with all that time, expense, and mess.

Sure, it could be that they feel guilty, but that's far from the obvious explanation.

I just don't think it matters why they didn't pursue the additional 15K. I think it's absurd that they got away with 15K to begin with and that this is allowed to go on. This is not the standard of care and we all know it. What better way to further stigmatize addiction and mental illness than by inventing punitive requirements around it while the asshats at these centers profit off these docs in trouble. This is so wrong on so many levels.
 
you guys are all right and it really doesn’t matter. Like I said I’m not seeking financial restitution. I just want to see better oversight for the next person and can’t just sit by while more docs are being taking advantage of like I was. everyone else I know in the program just wants to bow their heads and do their time and Move on. Well I’m not that kind of person. I would never be able to live with myself if I didn’t at least try to do something to help the next person.

Also, since I didn’t have the 30k to pay the rehab upfront they let me pay only the 15k I begged everyone in my family for and said I could pay the rest in monthly installments, and on my last day when I told them I planned on suing them they NEVER collected the rest. It’s been a year and a half. Now tell me, why would a place that demanded 30k up front be willing to just let go of the other 15k? Well because they knew I wouldn’t go through all the effort to sue them for only 15k and then didn’t want the bad publicity. If that doesn’t admit fault I don’t know what does
I don't think it matters either. All I was saying was that it's not an admission of guilt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The thing that bothers me the most about these programs is this “one size fits all approach”. Honestly it’s lazy, and it’s all about giving the maximum punishment because of the high risk/high liability nature of our jobs. One size does NOT fit all. I’m a perfect example of that. I was never once impaired at work. I was a star resident, top of my class in the single most competitive specialty of all of medicine that yet. They took me off work for almost 2 months because I smoked some marijuana on the WEEKENDS and only got caught because of a fake anonymous letter written out of revenge over a boy. Indiana made me go to 3x self help meeting, weekly therapy, a weekly cadeusus meeting, sponsor meetings, drug testing at one of their “preferred centers” that were only open certain hours and had HOURS of waiting time, took away my prescription Adderall I was on for 15 years because they “don’t let ANYONE in the program take adderall” and basically didn’t care that I did not physically have time to complete all these requirements and work a surgical fellowship at the same time. I did NOT need any of that to stay sober and all it did was significantly hurt my ability to do my job. And there was NO appeals process in Indiana, it’s literally run by ONE lady. Since going back to my home state my contract went from 5 to TWO years, I don’t have to go to self help meetings, I don’t have a sponsor, I don’t go to group. All I do is individual therapy once a week and drug testing that I can do at my local JAMS in and out in 5 min. That’s because my state has a committee of people in charge and you can appeal and change parts of your contract. There needs to be NATIONAL STANDARDIZATION to prevent corrupt organizations like the one in Indiana. And it’s only like this is my state btw because they got sue and had to do it this way. This needs to gain MORE attention if we ever want to accomplish anything and fix this ****



I just don't think it matters why they didn't pursue the additional 15K. I think


it's absurd that they got away with 15K to begin with and that this is allowed to go on. This is not the standard of care and we all know it. What better way to further stigmatize addiction and mental illness than by inventing punitive requirements around it while the asshats at these centers profit off these docs in trouble. This is so wrong on so many levels.
 
My program referred me to my state's PHS after I had an incident of falling asleep at work. I had cleared a routine, mandatory urine toxicology screen a week earlier. Nevertheless, I submitted another sample on the day of the incident and reported to PHS the next week as instructed by my program. PHS interviewed me about the incident. I told them I was sleep-deprived and overworked. They asked me to repeat urine, hair and nail testing. Everything came back negative. The next step they said was to go to Acumen Assessment in Kansas. The facility, however, wanted a sleep disorder to be ruled out so I was asked to complete a home sleep study which was negative for a disorder but recommended an inpatient sleep study. I forwarded the results to PHS who cleared me to go to Kansas. In Kansas, I repeated all the tests and underwent an intensive psychiatric evaluation as well as a polygraph. Eventually, Acumen Assessments sent their report to PHS that said that while there was no evidence for substance abuse I was suffering from a narcissistic personality disorder and was not fit to return to work until I completed an intensive outpatient psych program. After that, I would have to return to Acumen for them to determine my fitness to return to work. Imagine that, not being allowed to train because of a personality disorder. The psychiatrists that had been provided to me by my program were enraged by the report and wrote to my PD saying that there was nothing wrong with me and that I was fit to return to practice. My program fired me citing competency issues, making NO mention of the PHS evaluation.

(p.s. I had been goaded into not hiring a lawyer during this process by my "mentor" who said that I didn't want to appear confrontational so I basically went through this 3-month long process without ever meeting/speaking with a lawyer.)

What do you guys think about this process? Was this fair?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My program referred me to my state's PHS after I had an incident of falling asleep at work. I had cleared a routine, mandatory urine toxicology screen a week earlier. Nevertheless, I submitted another sample on the day of the incident and reported to PHS the next week as instructed by my program. PHS interviewed me about the incident. I told them I was sleep-deprived and overworked. They asked me to repeat urine, hair and nail testing. Everything came back negative. The next step they said was to go to Acumen Assessment in Kansas. The facility, however, wanted a sleep disorder to be ruled out so I was asked to complete a home sleep study which was negative for a disorder but recommended an inpatient sleep study. I forwarded the results to PHS who cleared me to go to Kansas. In Kansas, I repeated all the tests and underwent an intensive psychiatric evaluation as well as a polygraph. Eventually, Acumen Assessments sent their report to PHS that said that while there was no evidence for substance abuse I was suffering from a narcissistic personality disorder and was not fit to return to work until I completed an intensive outpatient psych program. After that, I would have to return to Acumen for them to determine my fitness to return to work. Imagine that, not being allowed to train because of a personality disorder. The psychiatrists that had been provided to me by my program were enraged by the report and wrote to my PD saying that there was nothing wrong with me and that I was fit to return to practice. My program fired me citing competency issues, making NO mention of the PHS evaluation.

(p.s. I had been goaded into not hiring a lawyer during this process by my "mentor" who said that I didn't want to appear confrontational so I basically went through this 3-month long process without ever meeting/speaking with a lawyer.)

What do you guys think about this process? Was this fair?
Ridiculous.

If narcissism was enough to bar doctors from working, most of the academic institutions we trained at wouldn't have a single person left on staff
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
As described, that sounds completely unreasonable. However, your program didn’t use it as a pretext to remove you so the competency question is largely separate.
 
My program referred me to my state's PHS after I had an incident of falling asleep at work. I had cleared a routine, mandatory urine toxicology screen a week earlier. Nevertheless, I submitted another sample on the day of the incident and reported to PHS the next week as instructed by my program. PHS interviewed me about the incident. I told them I was sleep-deprived and overworked. They asked me to repeat urine, hair and nail testing. Everything came back negative. The next step they said was to go to Acumen Assessment in Kansas. The facility, however, wanted a sleep disorder to be ruled out so I was asked to complete a home sleep study which was negative for a disorder but recommended an inpatient sleep study. I forwarded the results to PHS who cleared me to go to Kansas. In Kansas, I repeated all the tests and underwent an intensive psychiatric evaluation as well as a polygraph. Eventually, Acumen Assessments sent their report to PHS that said that while there was no evidence for substance abuse I was suffering from a narcissistic personality disorder and was not fit to return to work until I completed an intensive outpatient psych program. After that, I would have to return to Acumen for them to determine my fitness to return to work. Imagine that, not being allowed to train because of a personality disorder. The psychiatrists that had been provided to me by my program were enraged by the report and wrote to my PD saying that there was nothing wrong with me and that I was fit to return to practice. My program fired me citing competency issues, making NO mention of the PHS evaluation.

(p.s. I had been goaded into not hiring a lawyer during this process by my "mentor" who said that I didn't want to appear confrontational so I basically went through this 3-month long process without ever meeting/speaking with a lawyer.)

What do you guys think about this process? Was this fair?

Several years ago, I wouldn't have believed you. But I've now heard about/seen these things done. Some states have incredibly malignant PHP programs. Michigan, Massachusetts, and NC come to mind. Are you considering getting an attorney now? With regard to your mentor who told you not to, remember that most people don't realize how malignant the PHP programs can be. If they or someone they know have never been sent to one of these places, how would they know? They think PHPs are there to help and it's quite possible your mentor was looking out for your best interest. That said, now that you know and you lost your job, I would definitely call a lawyer and find out my rights...yesterday.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Several years ago, I wouldn't have believed you. But I've now heard about/seen these things done. Some states have incredibly malignant PHP programs. Michigan, Massachusetts, and NC come to mind. Are you considering getting an attorney now? With regard to your mentor who told you not to, remember that most people don't realize how malignant the PHP programs can be. If they or someone they know have never been sent to one of these places, how would they know? They think PHPs are there to help and it's quite possible your mentor was looking out for your best interest. That said, now that you know and you lost your job, I would definitely call a lawyer and find out my rights...yesterday.

I agree. NO One realizes how malignant and corrupt PHP programs are. I was refer to one as a resident and my pd and mentors all advised me to go. but I researched them and realized how terrible they were and decided to resign from residency instead.
 
I agree. NO One realizes how malignant and corrupt PHP programs are. I was refer to one as a resident and my pd and mentors all advised me to go. but I researched them and realized how terrible they were and decided to resign from residency instead.
It was not presented to me as an option by my program at the time if I wanted a shot at being allowed to resume my training.
 
I agree. NO One realizes how malignant and corrupt PHP programs are. I was refer to one as a resident and my pd and mentors all advised me to go. but I researched them and realized how terrible they were and decided to resign from residency instead.
I wish I had received better advice or had had the foresight to seek legal advice. Kick myself every day for that.
 
Several years ago, I wouldn't have believed you. But I've now heard about/seen these things done. Some states have incredibly malignant PHP programs. Michigan, Massachusetts, and NC come to mind. Are you considering getting an attorney now? With regard to your mentor who told you not to, remember that most people don't realize how malignant the PHP programs can be. If they or someone they know have never been sent to one of these places, how would they know? They think PHPs are there to help and it's quite possible your mentor was looking out for your best interest. That said, now that you know and you lost your job, I would definitely call a lawyer and find out my rights...yesterday.
My priority right now is to get back into residency so I am focusing on that because I am vulnerable unless I am at least part of a program. Since 2016, I have been involved in an ongoing matter with my state board who are seeking to retroactively revoke my limited license for not seeking help after my first episode of falling asleep. That matter is pending and I don't have the financial resources to open up another legal front.
 
My priority right now is to get back into residency so I am focusing on that because I am vulnerable unless I am at least part of a program. Since 2016, I have been involved in an ongoing matter with my state board who are seeking to retroactively revoke my limited license for not seeking help after my first episode of falling asleep. That matter is pending and I don't have the financial resources to open up another legal front.

Just out of curiosity, how many times did you fall asleep? Are you talking about the incident that resulted in the evaluations by your program or has this happened on multiple occasions?
 
Just out of curiosity, how many times did you fall asleep? Are you talking about the incident that resulted in the evaluations by your program or has this happened on multiple occasions?

I had two episodes, two months apart. The first time, my attending chose not to escalate the matter and asked me to get more sleep. Both of us assumed it was because of chronic sleep deprivation. The second episode happened during an away rotation and resulted in my dismissal. During the investigation following the second episode, I was asked to complete a sleep test and even though the home sleep study that I had done was abnormal (albeit without an explicit sleep disorder) no one at my program or PHS investigated it further. My sleep disorders were finally diagnosed after I underwent a PSG with MSLT months after my dismissal on the advice of a lawyer.

The Board's sole allegation against me is that by not seeking help after the first episode, I have undermined the public trust in the profession of medicine. This is ridiculous because no one seeks medical help for a sleep disorder after a single episode of falling asleep especially when there are coexisting confounding factors such as chronic partial sleep deprivation and shift work etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I had two episodes, two months apart. The first time, my attending chose not to escalate the matter and asked me to get more sleep. Both of us assumed it was because of chronic sleep deprivation. The second episode happened during an away rotation and resulted in my dismissal. During the investigation following the second episode, I was asked to complete a sleep test and even though the home sleep study that I had done was abnormal (albeit without an explicit sleep disorder) no one at my program or PHS investigated it further. My sleep disorders were finally diagnosed after I underwent a PSG with MSLT months after my dismissal on the advice of a lawyer.

The Board's sole allegation against me is that by not seeking help after the first episode, I have undermined the public trust in the profession of medicine. This is ridiculous because no one seeks medical help for a sleep disorder after a single episode of falling asleep especially when there are coexisting confounding factors such as chronic partial sleep deprivation and shift work etc.

You're right. WTF? Sounds like you're in a malignant state.
 
You're right. WTF? Sounds like you're in a malignant state.
Tell me about it! I have spoken to at least a dozen Ivy-league sleep experts and every single one of them has told me I am being victimized here. Two even have offered to testify on my behalf in court pro bono because they feel they need to from a moral imperative! I just wish this nightmare would end!
(After the board issued its statement of allegations against me (which I am appealing in court) the magistrate issued them a show-cause notice because she doesn't believe they have jurisdiction to retroactively revoke a limited license that expired two years ago. Gives you an idea of the magistrate's thinking into the case.)
 
...the magistrate issued them a show-cause notice because she doesn't believe they have jurisdiction to retroactively revoke a limited license that expired two years ago.

What would be the benefit of them retroactively revoking a limited license that expired 2 yrs ago? Did you really piss someone off that they're trying to screw you over or is there lawsuit or something? This seems ridiculous. I genuinely don't see the point of them putting in that much effort if neither of those are going on.

EDIT: To be clear, I also don't see the point of them doing it if those things were going on, but I could see some people doing it for that reason (i.e. vengeance or CYA).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
What would be the benefit of them retroactively revoking a limited license that expired 2 yrs ago? Did you really piss someone off that they're trying to screw you over or is there lawsuit or something? This seems ridiculous. I genuinely don't see the point of them putting in that much effort if neither of those are going on.

EDIT: To be clear, I also don't see the point of them doing it if those things were going on, but I could see some people doing it for that reason (i.e. vengeance or CYA).
You guys tell me. Prior to the Board contacting me I did not even know that they even existed frankly. I don't know anyone there. I have never worked with any one on/from the board. There is no lawsuit.

I am not the one who believes in conspiracy theories, but I wonder if this is happening to me because I am an IMG, POC and Muslim. I cannot come up with any other reason!
 
You guys tell me. Prior to the Board contacting me I did not even know that they even existed frankly. I don't know anyone there. I have never worked with any one on/from the board. There is no lawsuit.

I am not the one who believes in conspiracy theories, but I wonder if this is happening to me because I am an IMG, POC and Muslim. I cannot come up with any other reason!

I don't know, but it might actually be a PD or someone at the last program that has a grudge. They may have connections with the board. I've seen actions happen as a result of stuff like that before.

IMG, POC, and Muslim characterizes probably tens of thousands of docs though. I'm not saying its not possible, but I suspect there's more to it than that.
 
I don't know, but it might actually be a PD or someone at the last program that has a grudge. They may have connections with the board. I've seen actions happen as a result of stuff like that before.

IMG, POC, and Muslim characterizes probably tens of thousands of docs though. I'm not saying its not possible, but I suspect there's more to it than that.
Either way, it is discrimination.
 
You guys tell me. Prior to the Board contacting me I did not even know that they even existed frankly. I don't know anyone there. I have never worked with any one on/from the board. There is no lawsuit.

I am not the one who believes in conspiracy theories, but I wonder if this is happening to me because I am an IMG, POC and Muslim. I cannot come up with any other reason!

There is a huge difference to the board between retroactively revoking and letting it expire - future board inquiries. If they just let your limited license expire, then when anyone asks in the future it looks fine -- you had a limited license, and it ended for any number of good reasons. If they revoke it, then that creates a paper trail that there was a problem. I don't think you need to invoke some sort of racial animus here.

I do want to back up and comment upon some of your prior posts.

I had two episodes, two months apart. The first time, my attending chose not to escalate the matter and asked me to get more sleep. Both of us assumed it was because of chronic sleep deprivation. The second episode happened during an away rotation and resulted in my dismissal. During the investigation following the second episode, I was asked to complete a sleep test and even though the home sleep study that I had done was abnormal (albeit without an explicit sleep disorder) no one at my program or PHS investigated it further. My sleep disorders were finally diagnosed after I underwent a PSG with MSLT months after my dismissal on the advice of a lawyer.

The Board's sole allegation against me is that by not seeking help after the first episode, I have undermined the public trust in the profession of medicine. This is ridiculous because no one seeks medical help for a sleep disorder after a single episode of falling asleep especially when there are coexisting confounding factors such as chronic partial sleep deprivation and shift work etc.

You suggest in this post (and others) that you fell asleep at work due to sleep deprivation and shift work. If I was the PD of your program, I'd look at this problem through the lens of all of the other residents -- how many residents in the last 5 years have fallen asleep during a shift (ignoring when you're in a call room, of course). Is this something that happens all the time, or never?

because to me, if you fell asleep while monitoring someone's anesthesia -- that's a "never" event. It can never happen. It would be like my kid's school bus driver falling asleep while driving the bus -- even if they just fall asleep at a red light while the bus is stationary. In that case, I would fully expect the bus driver to immediately be evaluated for the problem.

So absolutely, if any of my residents fell asleep while providing clinical care, we would absolutely take that very seriously. Fall asleep in conference -- not that big of a deal. So context is important. What were you doing when you fell asleep?

If you were having trouble staying awake, you should have notified someone that you were unable to work. That's what the board is concerned about -- that either you can't tell when you're "sleep impaired", or that you just don't care. Either way, they see you as a danger.

You also seem to suggest that your program should have figured out you had a sleep disorder. This is your responsibility, not theirs. Sounds like they did some screening tests to figure out if you were medically disabled. Beyond that, its your responsibility to address your health problems, not your program.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Out of curiosity, if someone were to disclose a substance abuse to one of the residency offered "free" mental health psychiatrists/psychologists, could they then report you to PHP?
Theoretically they might be able to (and even would be obligated to) if they thought you were a danger to your patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
That makes sense. I'd assume for a medical student not responsible for patients or pre-clinical that confidentiality would apply then?

Yes, confidentiality should apply unless otherwise stated. The caveat to that is what kind of provider is this? Is this someone your school forced you to see or someone you're seeing on your own? If your school is making you see this person, it could mean that his/her report goes to them. You need to ask.
 
That makes sense. I'd assume for a medical student not responsible for patients or pre-clinical that confidentiality would apply then?
As a medical student you don't have a license. There's nothing to report to the Board.

Can they report you to your school? That's an interesting question. If they are hired by the school, you should definitely check policies. If you see someone privately, then they would not be allowed to report unless there was clear danger to you or others.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top