Residents lied about me in evaluations and reported me to the dean

[doctor_crane]

How common is this?
It is truly bizarre and out of left field for me.
I have a clinical rotation with internal medicine residents. I got notified by my school that I have to attend a meeting. In the meeting they said that the residents had multiple complaints about me. Comments like "does not appear interested" - by people that probably had contact with me for just a couple hours.
But the big one was "student asks to leave early"
So I was doing a night shift and the people on it said, hey man, you can leave whenever you want. We don't care. If you stay though we will let you go at 9. At 8:50 I asked if I could go ahead and leave. We were doing nothing and my fiancee would be home soon, so I figured why not.
They decided to report me to the dean after that. The only context they gave for this was "Student asks to leave early".

What's the deal here? Is this how medicine is like? I'd never do this to someone.
The dean did not believe my story at all and I'm on thin ice.

Other notes: they threw in lies as well. They mentioned that I was having trouble with notes and was told my notes need to improve, they offered to help me write my note. And I apparently said, no I don't need help. This never happened. This entire story about me being told I write bad notes is false. How do I manage this? I still have a week to go.

Btw they have not written the final eval, they just said to the dean hey we plan to fail this student for these reasons.

more context because someone will ask: I always show up on time, I do every task assigned to me, I ask for feedback on my notes, and I am polite to everyone, always. I'm not super chatty and more reserved though, the residents seem to all be super extroverted.

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[doctor_crane]

If multiple residents had complaints about you than well...I do not blame your dean for not believing you. If it is just one resident than the dean should investigate further. Any one else witness these things and can make a statement on your behalf?

The residents are like all best buds, I think one just gossiped and got everyone on their side. Then they all kept looking for reasons to get me reported like when I asked to leave at 8:50. I think the gossip has turned into lies and someone that heard the lie told my dean.
Can anyone speak for me? I do not know what residents are not part of the group, so it is hard to say. The other medical student can vouch for me, but he is just another student. This past week I was with different residents and a different attending, I had no problems with them. I'd be surprised if they thought I was bad and should fail. I have spent more time overall with these people than any of the people complaining. The doctors I have spent the most time with had not given any complaints.
I think if push comes to shove I should just mention that, let the doctors that actually spend the most time with me evaluate me.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Since none of us were there, no one can tell you what the "real" problem is. Although it's possible that the residents are lying about you, my experience is that usually the problem is your non-verbal communication. It's not what you say and do, it's how you say and do it. About the note thing - I expect one of the residents did actually try to help you. They were probably very indirect about it. They didn't say "Hey @doctor_crane, you clearly need to work on your notes, would you like help?". They probably said something much less direct, like "would you like me to review your notes before you submit them?". And you said no, and didn't pick up on the fact that they were actually concerned.

Feel free to tell the Dean how they should evaluate you. That won't end well. The fact that you're considering this is evidence of the problem.

 

[doctor_crane]

Since none of us were there, no one can tell you what the "real" problem is. Although it's possible that the residents are lying about you, my experience is that usually the problem is your non-verbal communication. It's not what you say and do, it's how you say and do it. About the note thing - I expect one of the residents did actually try to help you. They were probably very indirect about it. They didn't say "Hey @doctor_crane, you clearly need to work on your notes, would you like help?". They probably said something much less direct, like "would you like me to review your notes before you submit them?". And you said no, and didn't pick up on the fact that they were actually concerned.

Feel free to tell the Dean how they should evaluate you. That won't end well. The fact that you're considering this is evidence of the problem.

No one ever mentioned anything about my notes being good or bad or anything. I had them review the notes before submitting them, because we have no choice, I mean, it has to be signed off by them and attending.

If what I am saying is true, what would you do? I did not sign up for medicine to deal with this kind of drama. If I knew this kind of stuff happened, I'd not even bother going to school. It's not right.
Your snarky comment at the end is not appreciated. (and honestly makes me wonder why I bother doing SDN, always someone like this)

Medical students should not be expected to read body language as a form of evaluation. I may even be slightly autistic, I'm not sure.

All I want is advice on how to handle this.

 

[GoSpursGo]

No one ever mentioned anything about my notes being good or bad or anything. I had them review the notes before submitting them, because we have no choice, I mean, it has to be signed off by them and attending.

If what I am saying is true, what would you do? I did not sign up for medicine to deal with this kind of drama. If I knew this kind of stuff happened, I'd not even bother going to school. It's not right.
Your snarky comment at the end is not appreciated. (and honestly makes me wonder why I bother doing SDN, always someone like this)

Medical students should not be expected to read body language as a form of evaluation. I may even be slightly autistic, I'm not sure.

All I want is advice on how to handle this.

You're not going to like the answer--what you need to do is apologize, promise to do better, and accept any help that you are offered.

What is true unfortunately immaterial--this is a he said/she said situation, and without evidence on your side, you are not going to win this argument. Even if what you are saying is true. If you continue to go down this path of being defensive against criticism, even potentially overly harsh criticism, you are going to fail your medicine rotation and quite possibly get a professionalism violation. The person you are saying "always someone like this" is, as his handle would suggest, a former IM program director, and this is the way that medical training works. When you're in training, you accept criticism even when you think it is unfair and try to do better.

Even if I gave you full benefit of the doubt, several of the things you have said are troubling. Reading body language and working within a team is a core quality necessary for a physician, and something you need to learn. If you are autistic, then I sympathize--but interpersonal relationships is necessary in the medical field, and you have to perform to a basic minimal level. Your explanation for asking to leave early from your shift, even earlier than suggested by your resident, is completely inappropriate. Your team was already being very generous about letting you leave, and yet to ask to leave even earlier reflects poorly on your work ethic.

So, bottom line--I advise you to swallow your pride and play the game for while you are in training. It gets better, but you have to get through this part to get to the part where it is enjoyable.

 

[xffan624]

How common is this?
It is truly bizarre and out of left field for me.
I have a clinical rotation with internal medicine residents. I got notified by my school that I have to attend a meeting. In the meeting they said that the residents had multiple complaints about me. Comments like "does not appear interested" - by people that probably had contact with me for just a couple hours.
But the big one was "student asks to leave early"
So I was doing a night shift and the people on it said, hey man, you can leave whenever you want. We don't care. If you stay though we will let you go at 9. At 8:50 I asked if I could go ahead and leave. We were doing nothing and my fiancee would be home soon, so I figured why not.
They decided to report me to the dean after that. The only context they gave for this was "Student asks to leave early".

What's the deal here? Is this how medicine is like? I'd never do this to someone.
The dean did not believe my story at all and I'm on thin ice.

Other notes: they threw in lies as well. They mentioned that I was having trouble with notes and was told my notes need to improve, they offered to help me write my note. And I apparently said, no I don't need help. This never happened. This entire story about me being told I write bad notes is false. How do I manage this? I still have a week to go.

Btw they have not written the final eval, they just said to the dean hey we plan to fail this student for these reasons.

more context because someone will ask: I always show up on time, I do every task assigned to me, I ask for feedback on my notes, and I am polite to everyone, always. I'm not super chatty and more reserved though, the residents seem to all be super extroverted.

Agree with above and your title is misleading. Based on what you posted the residents are not lying about you on the evaluations. They are stating the truth in an unfavorable way. Take it on the chin and as a learning experience. They are not your friend and if they don't like you, their revenge might be an unfavorable evaluation. Try to listen to what they say, help where you can, and pretend that you actually want to stay later than you do without being a pest.

I had one ahole (anonymous) resident who wrote one word in my evaluation: "incompetent." That hurt. I vowed to be a better resident to my medical students when I reached residency which I think I did.

 

[Osminog]

This post strikes a chord with me. I was backstabbed by a couple of toxic residents during one of my MS3 rotations. If it weren't for an attending who thought highly of me and went to bat for me, I would have failed the rotation. I had never felt so betrayed before. It was definitely one of the darkest times of my medical school education.

My advice, based on the information provided:

Contact one or more of the chillest, most down-to-earth residents who were in the group that complained about you: "Hey, I was sort of blindsided recently. I was notified by my dean's office that some of the residents reported me for underperformance and that I might be failing the rotation. I unfortunately don't think I got this negative feedback directly from the team, so I had been under the false impression that I was doing okay. I have a week left of the rotation, and I'm really, really scared. Do you happen to know what led up to this unfortunate situation? Do you have any thoughts on how I can try to fix this so I can pass the rotation? I'm willing to do whatever I can to redeem myself and make things right."

Also, have one-on-one conversations with several residents and the attending you're working with now. Ask them how you're performing. If they say you're meeting (or exceeding) expectations, thank them for their feedback and explain the situation you're in. Follow up with, "I know you can't comment on my prior performance on another team, but I would greatly appreciate it if, toward the end of this week, you could briefly document your personal positive experiences with me and whether I've been meeting expectations set for third-year medical students."

You need to try to create advocates who will be transparent with you and try to stand up for you, and you need to create a brief paper trail of success during your final week. Of course, put in extra effort in order to finish strong.

 

[Proudfather94]

This post strikes a chord with me. I was backstabbed by a couple of toxic residents during one of my MS3 rotations. If it weren't for an attending who thought highly of me and went to bat for me, I would have failed the rotation. I had never felt so betrayed before. It was definitely one of the darkest times of my medical school education.

My advice, based on the information provided:

Contact one or more of the chillest, most down-to-earth residents who were in the group that complained about you: "Hey, I was sort of blindsided recently. I was notified by my dean's office that some of the residents reported me for underperformance and that I might be failing the rotation. I unfortunately don't think I got this negative feedback directly from the team, so I had been under the false impression that I was doing okay. I have a week left of the rotation, and I'm really, really scared. Do you happen to know what led up to this unfortunate situation? Do you have any thoughts on how I can try to fix this so I can pass the rotation? I'm willing to do whatever I can to redeem myself and make things right."

Also, have one-on-one conversations with several residents and the attending you're working with now. Ask them how you're performing. If they say you're meeting (or exceeding) expectations, thank them for their feedback and explain the situation you're in. Follow up with, "I know you can't comment on my prior performance on another team, but I would greatly appreciate it if, toward the end of this week, you could briefly document your personal positive experiences with me and whether I've been meeting expectations set for third-year medical students."

You need to try to create advocates who will be transparent with you and try to stand up for you, and you need to create a brief paper trail of success during your final week. Of course, put in extra effort in order to finish strong.

The type of behaviour that you're talking about from these residents reminds me of people in high school. How do people of this maturity level make it to medical school?

 

[doctor_crane]

The type of behaviour that you're talking about from these residents reminds me of people in high school. How do people of this maturity level make it to medical school?

Exactly, seems like people are just people, regardless of how much they have memorized. Even if what they said was true, not giving me any feedback and just planning to fail me is a very low move.

 

[doctor_crane]

This post strikes a chord with me. I was backstabbed by a couple of toxic residents during one of my MS3 rotations. If it weren't for an attending who thought highly of me and went to bat for me, I would have failed the rotation. I had never felt so betrayed before. It was definitely one of the darkest times of my medical school education.

My advice, based on the information provided:

Contact one or more of the chillest, most down-to-earth residents who were in the group that complained about you: "Hey, I was sort of blindsided recently. I was notified by my dean's office that some of the residents reported me for underperformance and that I might be failing the rotation. I unfortunately don't think I got this negative feedback directly from the team, so I had been under the false impression that I was doing okay. I have a week left of the rotation, and I'm really, really scared. Do you happen to know what led up to this unfortunate situation? Do you have any thoughts on how I can try to fix this so I can pass the rotation? I'm willing to do whatever I can to redeem myself and make things right."

Also, have one-on-one conversations with several residents and the attending you're working with now. Ask them how you're performing. If they say you're meeting (or exceeding) expectations, thank them for their feedback and explain the situation you're in. Follow up with, "I know you can't comment on my prior performance on another team, but I would greatly appreciate it if, toward the end of this week, you could briefly document your personal positive experiences with me and whether I've been meeting expectations set for third-year medical students."

You need to try to create advocates who will be transparent with you and try to stand up for you, and you need to create a brief paper trail of success during your final week. Of course, put in extra effort in order to finish strong.

I will try to do that if I think it won't cause drama and I can do it somewhat privately... Idk who is on my side and if I confide in the wrong person, may not go well.

 

[doctor_crane]

This post strikes a chord with me. I was backstabbed by a couple of toxic residents during one of my MS3 rotations. If it weren't for an attending who thought highly of me and went to bat for me, I would have failed the rotation. I had never felt so betrayed before. It was definitely one of the darkest times of my medical school education.

My advice, based on the information provided:

Contact one or more of the chillest, most down-to-earth residents who were in the group that complained about you: "Hey, I was sort of blindsided recently. I was notified by my dean's office that some of the residents reported me for underperformance and that I might be failing the rotation. I unfortunately don't think I got this negative feedback directly from the team, so I had been under the false impression that I was doing okay. I have a week left of the rotation, and I'm really, really scared. Do you happen to know what led up to this unfortunate situation? Do you have any thoughts on how I can try to fix this so I can pass the rotation? I'm willing to do whatever I can to redeem myself and make things right."

Also, have one-on-one conversations with several residents and the attending you're working with now. Ask them how you're performing. If they say you're meeting (or exceeding) expectations, thank them for their feedback and explain the situation you're in. Follow up with, "I know you can't comment on my prior performance on another team, but I would greatly appreciate it if, toward the end of this week, you could briefly document your personal positive experiences with me and whether I've been meeting expectations set for third-year medical students."

You need to try to create advocates who will be transparent with you and try to stand up for you, and you need to create a brief paper trail of success during your final week. Of course, put in extra effort in order to finish strong.

Of course, I apologized, I have no choice. It's like a mouse vs a herd of cats.
It's just that they are abusing their power and I do not like it. I will try to develop some sort of team that can speak up for me. I'm not sure I can change the minds of these horrible people in one week, but I can try.
You mentioned the asking to leave early is bad, even if they say you can leave whenever? Is this some sort of trap people do? Every other rotation, if they tell me I can leave, they mean it.

 

[doctor_crane]

Agree with above and your title is misleading. Based on what you posted the residents are not lying about you on the evaluations. They are stating the truth in an unfavorable way. Take it on the chin and as a learning experience. They are not your friend and if they don't like you, their revenge might be an unfavorable evaluation. Try to listen to what they say, help where you can, and pretend that you actually want to stay later than you do without being a pest.

I had one ahole (anonymous) resident who wrote one word in my evaluation: "incompetent." That hurt. I vowed to be a better resident to my medical students when I reached residency which I think I did.

the only "truth" they are showing me is that residents and potentially other doctors may not give a c*** about you. Very different than my other rotations.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I do apologize - I agree my final comment was snarky. That's not my usual style and nothing in your post deserved that.

You can choose to look at this situation several different ways. One choice is what you have stated here -- that they are lying and being vindictive, for unknown reasons. It's certainly possible. But it's also possible that they are simply reporting their viewpoint / experience working with you. It certainly doesn't match your intentions or your perceived performance. I agree that they should give you this feedback directly. But from this vantage point, the question is "What can you change / do differently to avoid this sort of problem in the future?" The only person's behavior you can change is your own. Even if the "fault" lies with them, you can't change people like this -- you can only change your own behavior.

Already mentioned is that "reading the room" and emotionally connecting with people is part of the job of a physician. If you think you might have some Autistic tendencies -- then that's the actual problem here. If you don't emotionally connect with the people around you, they interpret that as a lack of interest / commitment / engagement. They then will interpret requests like leaving early in a negative light. And if your communication style doesn't work well with them, then that may explain why they may have had difficulty communicating these issues to you.

Labeling them as "horrible people" frames this in a specific narrative that may not be helpful. Maybe they are fine people, there was a poor team dynamic, which led to this outcome. Looking at it that way might be more helpful as you move forward.

 

[doctor_crane]

I do apologize - I agree my final comment was snarky. That's not my usual style and nothing in your post deserved that.

You can choose to look at this situation several different ways. One choice is what you have stated here -- that they are lying and being vindictive, for unknown reasons. It's certainly possible. But it's also possible that they are simply reporting their viewpoint / experience working with you. It certainly doesn't match your intentions or your perceived performance. I agree that they should give you this feedback directly. But from this vantage point, the question is "What can you change / do differently to avoid this sort of problem in the future?" The only person's behavior you can change is your own. Even if the "fault" lies with them, you can't change people like this -- you can only change your own behavior.

Already mentioned is that "reading the room" and emotionally connecting with people is part of the job of a physician. If you think you might have some Autistic tendencies -- then that's the actual problem here. If you don't emotionally connect with the people around you, they interpret that as a lack of interest / commitment / engagement. They then will interpret requests like leaving early in a negative light. And if your communication style doesn't work well with them, then that may explain why they may have had difficulty communicating these issues to you.

Labeling them as "horrible people" frames this in a specific narrative that may not be helpful. Maybe they are fine people, there was a poor team dynamic, which led to this outcome. Looking at it that way might be more helpful as you move forward.

Thank you. They may not be horrible, I'm just angry.
I of course will try to make amends and get through the last week.
Not everything they said is false (I may appear disinterested, I'm a very laid-back kind of guy), but the few things I mentioned, either it was a lie or it is a misunderstanding. Regardless, I hope people reading this that have medical students now or in the future will try to talk to the student before going to the extreme and ruining their career.

 

[Proudfather94]

I do apologize - I agree my final comment was snarky. That's not my usual style and nothing in your post deserved that.

You can choose to look at this situation several different ways. One choice is what you have stated here -- that they are lying and being vindictive, for unknown reasons. It's certainly possible. But it's also possible that they are simply reporting their viewpoint / experience working with you. It certainly doesn't match your intentions or your perceived performance. I agree that they should give you this feedback directly. But from this vantage point, the question is "What can you change / do differently to avoid this sort of problem in the future?" The only person's behavior you can change is your own. Even if the "fault" lies with them, you can't change people like this -- you can only change your own behavior.

Already mentioned is that "reading the room" and emotionally connecting with people is part of the job of a physician. If you think you might have some Autistic tendencies -- then that's the actual problem here. If you don't emotionally connect with the people around you, they interpret that as a lack of interest / commitment / engagement. They then will interpret requests like leaving early in a negative light. And if your communication style doesn't work well with them, then that may explain why they may have had difficulty communicating these issues to you.

Labeling them as "horrible people" frames this in a specific narrative that may not be helpful. Maybe they are fine people, there was a poor team dynamic, which led to this outcome. Looking at it that way might be more helpful as you move forward.

I don't want to hijack this thread but I had a similar situation last semester and was wondering if you or others could give clues on how to spot this stuff early. I'm in preclinical and my school assigns groups at the beginning of the semester. A few weeks in I noticed my group got pretty clicky and basically excluded myself and one other person. I'm kind of worried about this for rotations as I know the hospital can be a similar environment to high school socially. What kinds of signs should one look for, and what can you do when you start to see those signs?

I just want to clarify as well I mean when it comes to people that can have a large impact on you like those evaluating you and such.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Sounds strange to randomly be targeted by a group of residents. Maybe it is that I've never seen people be this malignant, but i don't think you'll trigger the ire of people without some inciting factor. This is not to say that they are not lying. All I'm saying is we need to understand why this is really happening

 

[thumbz]

I posted in another thread with a similar vein, but I can tell you from experience this is almost always a personality conflict (with a caveat below). It takes a herculean amount of effort for a student to be so bad that multiple residents go out of their way to recommend they fail. Most residents are not malignant or malicious, and would rather see someone pass and move on than go through the work of failing them and potentially being stuck remediating the student. Crappy notes, crappy clinical knowledge, etc is usually not enough by itself. Pair that with laziness, being disinteresting, disappearing, missing scheduled conferences, etc then it becomes much more likely to go to the extreme of someone failing. OP - I think you're spot on that you have some behavioral issues to work on. Do you look stuff up on your phone on rounds? That looks like texting. Do you zone out during noon conference? Do you look stuff up on your phone during the day? Do you keep notes on your phone?

Keep in mind too my residents may approach me and recommend someone fail, but I gently remind them what it's like to be a student and everyone is at a different level. I need to be the one who goes to our site director to have them reach out to the med school. If my residents skipped me to go to the site director that person would come to me first to corroborate. It may not work that way everywhere but I can't fathom an institution where the attending's opinion is not considered.

Caveat - it's not impossible though. We had a student come through, was a nice enough guy. Asked questions to try and appear interested, but quickly we all saw it was a facade. He would do his best to follow the easiest patients and never volunteer to pick up anyone extra. Always looked to leave early. We never once saw him read. If asked a question on rounds, his default answer was "I don't know". I don't know what exactly it was that pushed him over, but all of us ended up with the same gut feeling he shouldn't pass. This was my first student in 8 years on the wards who failed. There wasn't one thing I could pinpoint, and he didn't have an abrasive personality.

 

[Neopolymath]

The type of behaviour that you're talking about from these residents reminds me of people in high school. How do people of this maturity level make it to medical school?

If you are a non-trad you are about to be sorely disappointed in the abilities of a lot of your seniors, especially if you meet them again when you are a resident.

That said, this is SDN and we basically never get the real story directly. 50-50 OP is just unfortunately oblivious or not pragmatic enough to play the game.

 

[TaurusGirl]

How common is this?
It is truly bizarre and out of left field for me.
I have a clinical rotation with internal medicine residents. I got notified by my school that I have to attend a meeting. In the meeting they said that the residents had multiple complaints about me. Comments like "does not appear interested" - by people that probably had contact with me for just a couple hours.
But the big one was "student asks to leave early"
So I was doing a night shift and the people on it said, hey man, you can leave whenever you want. We don't care. If you stay though we will let you go at 9. At 8:50 I asked if I could go ahead and leave. We were doing nothing and my fiancee would be home soon, so I figured why not.
They decided to report me to the dean after that. The only context they gave for this was "Student asks to leave early".

What's the deal here? Is this how medicine is like? I'd never do this to someone.
The dean did not believe my story at all and I'm on thin ice.

Other notes: they threw in lies as well. They mentioned that I was having trouble with notes and was told my notes need to improve, they offered to help me write my note. And I apparently said, no I don't need help. This never happened. This entire story about me being told I write bad notes is false. How do I manage this? I still have a week to go.

Btw they have not written the final eval, they just said to the dean hey we plan to fail this student for these reasons.

more context because someone will ask: I always show up on time, I do every task assigned to me, I ask for feedback on my notes, and I am polite to everyone, always. I'm not super chatty and more reserved though, the residents seem to all be super extroverted.

Your situation is very common. It sounds like these residents are highly jealous of your accomplishments, your independence, are feeling very threatened, and now want you gone because you refused to be part of their "popular" crowd. By any chance, are you from a very wealthy family, or are you an extra handsome guy/very beautiful girl? That stuff makes everything 10X times worse, because they think you have had an easy life. You are the naive, sweet, innocent God-fearing type that does not partake in office gossip or politics, and you are dealing with thugs. Document everything, and next time, don't be so trusting, most people are "frenemies" in the workplace. This happens at EVERY job. Once you are practicing on your own as a physician, it does not matter what these bullies say or do or think, but learn from this experience, and be clever, wise, and cunning next time.

 

[doctor_crane]

If you are a non-trad you are about to be sorely disappointed in the abilities of a lot of your seniors, especially if you meet them again when you are a resident.

That said, this is SDN and we basically never get the real story directly. 50-50 OP is just unfortunately oblivious or not pragmatic enough to play the game.

Fair enough. What may be most likely is just a lack of communication.
I know they don't mean well due to the lies though... Even if they were a misunderstanding, the lies make me look horrible.

 

[doctor_crane]

I posted in another thread with a similar vein, but I can tell you from experience this is almost always a personality conflict (with a caveat below). It takes a herculean amount of effort for a student to be so bad that multiple residents go out of their way to recommend they fail. Most residents are not malignant or malicious, and would rather see someone pass and move on than go through the work of failing them and potentially being stuck remediating the student. Crappy notes, crappy clinical knowledge, etc is usually not enough by itself. Pair that with laziness, being disinteresting, disappearing, missing scheduled conferences, etc then it becomes much more likely to go to the extreme of someone failing. OP - I think you're spot on that you have some behavioral issues to work on. Do you look stuff up on your phone on rounds? That looks like texting. Do you zone out during noon conference? Do you look stuff up on your phone during the day? Do you keep notes on your phone?

Keep in mind too my residents may approach me and recommend someone fail, but I gently remind them what it's like to be a student and everyone is at a different level. I need to be the one who goes to our site director to have them reach out to the med school. If my residents skipped me to go to the site director that person would come to me first to corroborate. It may not work that way everywhere but I can't fathom an institution where the attending's opinion is not considered.

Caveat - it's not impossible though. We had a student come through, was a nice enough guy. Asked questions to try and appear interested, but quickly we all saw it was a facade. He would do his best to follow the easiest patients and never volunteer to pick up anyone extra. Always looked to leave early. We never once saw him read. If asked a question on rounds, his default answer was "I don't know". I don't know what exactly it was that pushed him over, but all of us ended up with the same gut feeling he shouldn't pass. This was my first student in 8 years on the wards who failed. There wasn't one thing I could pinpoint, and he didn't have an abrasive personality.

The thing is, I have shown up to everything on time. I've done all work given, on time. If I'm asked to present, I do it. I prepare presentations.
In general, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do. I think it is them assuming things based on my body language instead of talking to me.
I have used my phone, but it is generally to study when we don't have anything going on. Every resident uses their phone almost constantly, so I didn't think it mattered. I think they just used it as fuel against me that sounds bad, that I cannot deny. It's not like I'm just surfing the web, on facebook, or something like that. I do not believe I have gotten my phone out during important times, but it is possible I looked at a text or something but do not remember. I'll just leave my phone in my bag next week, that way it cannot be used against me.

Your last paragraph may be the impression they are trying to sell. I'll note though that everything they said was based on my first week with them, so I was not doing a lot of extra work because I didn't know exactly how to do everything EMR-wise, I just did what I was told. They would let me go early, like tell me I can leave. So I did, but maybe that is a test to see if I'd be like, no I want to stay. Either way, that should be a test of getting a good eval, not a pass or fail.
I know my stuff, so, I can answer questions. Sometimes they ask me things that I couldn't have known, since it was week 1 and I was still learning.

Week 2 I was on the night shift, no problems at all, except the time I mentioned I left at 8:50 because they said I could.
Week 3, they had nothing to say.
Week 4, they will have nothing to say.

 

[doctor_crane]

Sounds strange to randomly be targeted by a group of residents. Maybe it is that I've never seen people be this malignant, but i don't think you'll trigger the ire of people without some inciting factor. This is not to say that they are not lying. All I'm saying is we need to understand why this is really happening

I have no incentive to lie to strangers on the internet... In fact, it is prob a waste of time in general. I suppose someone could get on here and just lie to have a fun story.
This is the truth, from my perspective. Of course, there are different perspectives.

 

[doctor_crane]

I don't want to hijack this thread but I had a similar situation last semester and was wondering if you or others could give clues on how to spot this stuff early. I'm in preclinical and my school assigns groups at the beginning of the semester. A few weeks in I noticed my group got pretty clicky and basically excluded myself and one other person. I'm kind of worried about this for rotations as I know the hospital can be a similar environment to high school socially. What kinds of signs should one look for, and what can you do when you start to see those signs?

I just want to clarify as well I mean when it comes to people that can have a large impact on you like those evaluating you and such.

It is funny you mention that because the same thing happened to me in preclinical years. I didn't do or say anything bad to my group, they just didn't invite me to anything or want anything to do with me.
I think people like you and me just have to be careful, because it is like high school again. If you were a nerdy loner (I was) then you probably will be again.
Only difference is, people higher up on the ladder can torch you if they feel like it. No one will believe you.

Maybe doing IM is not the best choice considering it is not just about knowing things and being a good doctor, it is fitting in with residents that can be very clicky.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I have no incentive to lie to strangers on the internet... In fact, it is prob a waste of time in general. I suppose someone could get on here and just lie to have a fun story.
This is the truth, from my perspective. Of course, there are different perspectives.

Like I said, I'm not saying you are lying, but there's often more to a story. Why would they randomly target you? There's something that had to happen that triggered this. Whether it is a poor attitude, a bad exchange with someone, a political disagreement, or something else

 

[Splenda88]

Play the game until you become an attending.

I am somewhat an introvert and I played the game and it has worked.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

The truth is usually in the middle of two perspectives. It often takes one bad interaction that leads to a negative perception from others. Appearances in clinicals are everything. If you do not appear interested, regardless of whether you are/arent, you will be perceived as not interested. Your personality may not be the extroverted/smiling/how can I help type, but these are the students that get the best reviews. It is a reality of life that requires adapting to.

It comes down to this. Either you're right and they're wrong or vice versa. Either way, does it matter who is right? You're being perceived in a negative light and now people will start to develop this perception of you as a "trouble maker" etc. So now you must change that perception through positivity. Anger/negativity will only give them more ammo against you. Respond to negativity, with kindness. You will have to master this skill when you get ahole patients who scream at you and demand xanax. Apologize that people see you this way, and show a big push that you genuinely want to be part of the team.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I've also seem this happen before, it actually happened to a friend of mine. He complained and he had the other attending write his eval and they basically wrote a 360. Whether the OP is 100% innocent of issues. I think there certainly are plenty of bastards in medicine. We all know they exist and we've all worked with them.

 

[EmperorK]

How common is this?
It is truly bizarre and out of left field for me.
I have a clinical rotation with internal medicine residents. I got notified by my school that I have to attend a meeting. In the meeting they said that the residents had multiple complaints about me. Comments like "does not appear interested" - by people that probably had contact with me for just a couple hours.
But the big one was "student asks to leave early"
So I was doing a night shift and the people on it said, hey man, you can leave whenever you want. We don't care. If you stay though we will let you go at 9. At 8:50 I asked if I could go ahead and leave. We were doing nothing and my fiancee would be home soon, so I figured why not.
They decided to report me to the dean after that. The only context they gave for this was "Student asks to leave early".

What's the deal here? Is this how medicine is like? I'd never do this to someone.
The dean did not believe my story at all and I'm on thin ice.

Other notes: they threw in lies as well. They mentioned that I was having trouble with notes and was told my notes need to improve, they offered to help me write my note. And I apparently said, no I don't need help. This never happened. This entire story about me being told I write bad notes is false. How do I manage this? I still have a week to go.

Btw they have not written the final eval, they just said to the dean hey we plan to fail this student for these reasons.

more context because someone will ask: I always show up on time, I do every task assigned to me, I ask for feedback on my notes, and I am polite to everyone, always. I'm not super chatty and more reserved though, the residents seem to all be super extroverted.

I made the account to reply to you. I will explain everything that you mentioned in this talk.
So, the first issue you mention is Autism, a medical term for 'I have terrible social skills", this is a problem. Medicine is all about people's perception of you, if they think you're lazy/idiotic then there's a problem. You need to make people like you, so they bat for you. A lot of this is simply kissing ass. Resident: "Oh you want me to look at your notes before submitting them?" You, wiser after this post, reply: "Yes thank you very much for taking your time "smiles" ". Look even if you don't need it, you at least build rapport with them. The very fact that this did not come up in your mind means you still have a lot to learn about socializing.

The leaving early situation is all your fault, you told them you wanted to leave early, and they told you at 9. So stfu and leave at 9. I've made the same mistake as you have, and honestly, it isn't factually egregious, but it is perceptually egregious. You see, they weren't suggesting leaving at 9, they were telling you that 9 was the earliest you could leave. This is an issue I see a lot in medicine, people (be incredibly careful when dealing with shy men, or women in this field) will word something as a suggestion, but it is an order. It's their fault, but you must learn to translate until you don't.

I'm going to tell you something that took me time and pain to learn you can suck, or you can be unpleasant. Not.Both. So pick. I can tell that you're competitive from these posts, that's a good trait and you need to control it while you're at the bottom of the pecking order. The other people are telling you to fix your attitude, and this is why; You will get a ****ty grade on this unless you have evidence (E-mails, voice recordings, notes) that they are being insincere (see how I said insincere and not lying? there's a difference.) So now they're trying to help you not fail. If you go to one guy, apologize profusely, and show them, and have an enjoyable time with them, they can bat enough for you not to fail and just move on. As my mother used to say, and it took me years to understand this; Being nice is free. I can tell you once I learned social engineering, not only did my relationships get better. I didn't even have to be good to get what I needed, I just needed not to be an dingus. Most people don't fail you unless you give them a reason not to (it's a lot of paperwork, meetings and honestly, they might have to deal with you again. Better to pass you.

So imma be honest: In this rotation, swallow your pride, kiss ass, and be a good doggie boy. And for the love of God, after u get through this try to think how u got these people to dislike you. Do you not smile? I coach people with communication, not smiling is a big ****ing problem. It's different when the guy who helps everyone and flexes around everyone's needs and makes our life easier has a dreadful day and an underperformance. It's another thing when the guy i don't like has those things. So don't be the guy i don't like.

 

[wholeheartedly]

OP, how many rotations have you had so far and how was your feedback for those?

 

[Candidate2017]

Subjectively, introversion can be viewed as disinterest. You also did ask to leave early. So, all that can be used against you. If you were well-liked, no one may have mentioned it. But there's still a nontrivial chance you run into someone who enjoys screwing people over.

In a professional environment, everything can and will be used or twisted against you. High school drama is petty but nothing compared to exponential drama in the big boy/big girl world where status, money, career, life/death, lawsuits, and other significant things are at stake.

People will not hesitate to throw you under the bus (e.g., RNs will document they paged you (but didn't) and got no response, patients will smile and turn around and file complaints, etc.). Again, you can't stop it, but you can reduce the chances by accepting that medicine is the people business, and actively manage people and the image you project. The data shows well-liked physicians are less likely to be sued, regardless of competency. Accept it. It will get worse until you change and make an effort to achieve some mastery in the people business, as well as swallow your pride.

BTW OP, in the real world, the only feedback you may get about your notes is when insurance pulls 10 notes from your chart, says 3 are insufficient, and demands you pay back 30% of the money they paid you from the last 3 years. Unlike med school, you don't get to remediate or solve problems simply by making a contrite face and saying, "Oh sorry, thank you for the feedback! I'll make sure to do better next time."

 

[Terrainport]

did you recieve similar evaluations in the past on your other rotations?

 

[Prehealth1011]

Very common. This kinda stuff happened to my classmates. This is also the reason why i purposefully picked easier rotation sites as a 3rd year student to avoid the ones with malignant residents/attendings known to give bad evals. As a result, my surgery/OB rotations were office hours and I have no ragrets

You kinda always feel like there’s a target on your back. As a PGY2, I finally reached the state of mind that I probably won’t be fired

 

[Splenda88]

When one is an introvert (like myself), it's hard to realize that you can, most of the time, appear disinterested. I had an attending that told me I look disinterested. I was lucky she told me that early on. I had to make major adjustment.

You know when I truly understood how other people perceive you when you are an introvert in medicine was when I was a PGY2 leading a team of two interns. One of the interns was (is ) an introvert like me. That stuff stuck out like a sore thumb to the point even the attending told me if I don't help him shape up, he will fail him.

I helped him by making sure he discussed all of his patients with me. And when the attending call me to let me know he is on his way, I reminded him that he gotta appear engaged and motivated.

 

[Dantes]

I once worked with a resident for a whole week, frequently asked for feedback, and had an end-of-week meeting with useful positive and constructive criticism, all of it clinically related. Then I got hammered on my eval saying I didn't appear engaged or interested in seeing patients. Nothing about this came up all week despite me asking for feedback.

Anyway, just trying to say don't take everything at face value OP. Gotta play the game and appear as likable and interested as you can, at least until residency when you can actually be judged for real work that you do.

 

[gyngyn]

Gotta play the game and appear as likable and interested as you can, at least until residency when you can actually be judged for real work that you do.

Residents are evaluated on their interpersonal/communication skills, enthusiasm and teamwork to a far greater degree than medical students. The program will be judged by the ability of their residents to provide care. This is the real work that residents do. The quality of that work is largely perceived by both patients and others to be more effective when these qualities are present.
Introverts are just as likely to be perceived positively.

 

[ProReduction]

How common is this?
It is truly bizarre and out of left field for me.
I have a clinical rotation with internal medicine residents. I got notified by my school that I have to attend a meeting. In the meeting they said that the residents had multiple complaints about me. Comments like "does not appear interested" - by people that probably had contact with me for just a couple hours.
But the big one was "student asks to leave early"
So I was doing a night shift and the people on it said, hey man, you can leave whenever you want. We don't care. If you stay though we will let you go at 9. At 8:50 I asked if I could go ahead and leave. We were doing nothing and my fiancee would be home soon, so I figured why not.
They decided to report me to the dean after that. The only context they gave for this was "Student asks to leave early".

What's the deal here? Is this how medicine is like? I'd never do this to someone.
The dean did not believe my story at all and I'm on thin ice.

Other notes: they threw in lies as well. They mentioned that I was having trouble with notes and was told my notes need to improve, they offered to help me write my note. And I apparently said, no I don't need help. This never happened. This entire story about me being told I write bad notes is false. How do I manage this? I still have a week to go.

Btw they have not written the final eval, they just said to the dean hey we plan to fail this student for these reasons.

more context because someone will ask: I always show up on time, I do every task assigned to me, I ask for feedback on my notes, and I am polite to everyone, always. I'm not super chatty and more reserved though, the residents seem to all be super extroverted.

This happens all the time. Medicine is full of sociopaths. Your story is not uncommon at all. Problem is that the same residents that made-up lies about you are the same ones that will climb the pseudo-academic medicine ladder and will end up as "Assistant Program Director" or "Vice Service Line Chief" or junior deans and will perpetuate the nonsense. I had a co-rotating student my M3 year. Nice guy. Was planning to do EM. Was not overly interested in Peds but did his best. Did not suck-up to the residents like half of all M3s do. Well his senior Peds resident simply could not tolerate that his eyes did not light-up every time she asked him to see a kid with the sniffles. She conspired with other co-residents and they wrote awful reviews for this M3. I worked with him daily and he was objectively average to above average. The reviews were so bad that he almost failed the rotation despite a good shelf exam and otherwise good performance.

People in medicine are miserable, especially during residency, and they are unfortunately the kind of people where misery demands company.

 

[Splenda88]

The stakes are high in medicine guys.

This profession set you up financially for life if you are not stupid w/ $$$ or dont get divorce multiple times.

Be a little street smart so you don't mess things up during med school and residency.

How many professions out there where you have people blasting your phone every day offering jobs that pay $150-200/hr?

 

[holdthemayo]

did you recieve similar evaluations in the past on your other rotations?

This is the real question for me.

If you are getting feedback like this from other rotations, or even multiple people on this rotation, then you need to do some self reflection. There probably are some things that you aren't aware of that you need to work on. That's ok, that's part of the process of becoming a doctor.

If this review is an outlier, then **** 'em. Don't give them a second thought. You won't get along with everyone and that is ok. A single bad eval will not hurt your chances.

 

[holdthemayo]

Some other things to think about:

Is this a specialty you want to do? Maybe you seem disinterested because you aren't interested. Unfortunately you probably have to learn to fake it better.

If you are serious about the autism thing, I have a family member who is a very successful physician in their field (pathology) who is autistic. If you are worried that the interpersonal skills are not your strong point, there are several specialties where that doesn't matter.

Lastly, telling you that you could leave early and then complaining when you did is terrible. When I tell a student to go home early it is because I want to browse reddit or something. No resident should be playing those mind games.

 

[BlueBleck]

It takes a herculean amount of effort for a student to be so bad that multiple residents go out of their way to recommend they fail. Most residents are not malignant or malicious, and would rather see someone pass and move on than go through the work of failing them and potentially being stuck remediating the student.

Agree. I had a student skip many random days without telling anyone and I didn't even want to report. If my senior didn't insist, i wouldn't have. It's extra work for me. Have to send emails, talk to attendings.

I have used my phone, but it is generally to study when we don't have anything going on.

One of my top 5 tips for medical school is to buy an ipad mini so you can anki/read/etc on clinicals while still looking interested. It fits perfectly in scrub pockets. When attendings see diagrams on that ipad, it warms their heart. When you're hunched over your phone, you probably remind them of their IG/tik-tok addicted teenager. Sucks that these things matter, but they do.

This kinda stuff happened to my classmates.

Never seen it. I did rotations at a known malignant site. The site makes an appearance every year on the name/shame reddit threads. But I'll take you at your word. Just an n=1 in the other direction because your experience sounds so otherworldly to me. Even widely disliked residents were mostly just disliked because they were annoying, rather than malicious.

 

[nybsm786]

Agree. I had a student skip many random days without telling anyone and I didn't even want to report. If my senior didn't insist, i wouldn't have. It's extra work for me. Have to send emails, talk to attendings.



One of my top 5 tips for medical school is to buy an ipad mini so you can anki/read/etc on clinicals while still looking interested. It fits perfectly in scrub pockets. When attendings see diagrams on that ipad, it warms their heart. When you're hunched over your phone, you probably remind them of their IG/tik-tok addicted teenager. Sucks that these things matter, but they do.



Never seen it. I did rotations at a known malignant site. The site makes an appearance every year on the name/shame reddit threads. But I'll take you at your word. Just an n=1 in the other direction because your experience sounds so otherworldly to me. Even widely disliked residents were mostly just disliked because they were annoying, rather than malicious.

+1 for the phone.

I spent a week on a rotation where we were given literally zero work, responsibilities and told to sit in a corner until they gave us 2 5 minute tasks to do throughout our whole 12 hour shift.

I spent the whole 12 hours on my phone banging out UWorld and Amboss. I killed that shelf. Literally ran through almost a thousand questions that week, it was so productive academically.

Attending told me at my exit interview I was glue'd to my phone and came off as disengaged. I remember telling the residents I was with everyday how much UWorld I was doing on my phone, and emphasizing stuff to attendings I learned while I was studying on my phone.

It's just optics. It's like being tattoo'd head to toe. At the end of the day, certain things just look bad, and give off a certain impression no matter how untrue it may really be.

Honestly, the best thing to do is to just not pull out a phone in front of an attending or resident - ever. Maybe an intern if they're on their phone.

 

[xffan624]

+1 for the phone.

I spent a week on a rotation where we were given literally zero work, responsibilities and told to sit in a corner until they gave us 2 5 minute tasks to do throughout our whole 12 hour shift.

I spent the whole 12 hours on my phone banging out UWorld and Amboss. I killed that shelf. Literally ran through almost a thousand questions that week, it was so productive academically.

Attending told me at my exit interview I was glue'd to my phone and came off as disengaged. I remember telling the residents I was with everyday how much UWorld I was doing on my phone, and emphasizing stuff to attendings I learned while I was studying on my phone.

It's just optics. It's like being tattoo'd head to toe. At the end of the day, certain things just look bad, and give off a certain impression no matter how untrue it may really be.

Honestly, the best thing to do is to just not pull out a phone in front of an attending or resident - ever. Maybe an intern if they're on their phone.

We were given small laptops that could access the emr and other basic browser functionality during MS3. They were lifesavers during down rotations. I could have the EMR up along with a etextbook or some other study material that I could switch between to look engaged while still studying. No UWORLD but it was better than nothing. If you can't have that an ipad mini or cheap tablet might be worth an investment. Better optics than a phone.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thank you. They may not be horrible, I'm just angry.
I of course will try to make amends and get through the last week.
Not everything they said is false (I may appear disinterested, I'm a very laid-back kind of guy), but the few things I mentioned, either it was a lie or it is a misunderstanding. Regardless, I hope people reading this that have medical students now or in the future will try to talk to the student before going to the extreme and ruining their career.

I think you may miss the lesson from all of what people have provided in the thread. This does not happen to many students, so it is best to see what you can change to prevent it happening in the future. If they didn't offer assistance, perhaps it was because you come off as unlikely to receive criticism well, or perhaps they offered in a way you didn't perceive rather than outright stating things. Unfortunately, with the way it works in medical school you're best off never leaving early, as some offers are more testing your interest on the part of residents and attendings than anything. I never do it myself, but I've known plenty that have.

The other thing to be mindful of is the environment you're in. Do the residents seem like they're having a stressful experience? If they are and you're just chilling, that may cause them to vent their frustration at your perceived level of cush while they're slaving away. Is it a high-level academic environment? Well then realize these are probably people that view going above and beyond as the bare minimum. Reading the room and the social dynamics therein is an essential skill as both a medical student and physician, and it is one that can be developed if you don't have it.

The bottom line is that no amount of what has occurred can be changed aside from your response to it and changing whatever behaviors led to these reviews. You can't change the institution, all you can change is yourself.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've also seem this happen before, it actually happened to a friend of mine. He complained and he had the other attending write his eval and they basically wrote a 360. Whether the OP is 100% innocent of issues. I think there certainly are plenty of bastards in medicine. We all know they exist and we've all worked with them.

They exist, but the trick is learning to deal with them. One individual nearly cost me my career in psychiatry through a simple misinterpretation of what I meant with a statement. I learned to shut my mouth and be very careful with how I approach interactions and never made the same mistake again.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They exist, but the trick is learning to deal with them. One individual nearly cost me my career in psychiatry through a simple misinterpretation of what I meant with a statement. I learned to shut my mouth and be very careful with how I approach interactions and never made the same mistake again.

I'd call that individual unhinged. Unfortunately there are many people like that in medicine.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'd call that individual unhinged. Unfortunately there are many people like that in medicine.

They weren't necessarily unhinged, just had very strong opinions about who is the teacher in medical settings and I tried to help another student with a difficult question by giving them a little hint that would get them in the right direction in a manner I thought was collaborative because they were a bit off base, but which the attending viewed as me trying to show off, which it wasn't at all. In my prior career as a respiratory therapist we collaborated all the time with physicians and nurses so I just did what I'd do during rounds in my old career (amd what people would do for me) but the attending insisted "it isn't your job to teach your fellow students" and basically ripped me apart and caused my grade to drop from honors to the only pass I ever received. I tossed them one line that helped them get on the right track (they forgot to ask about trauma, and the patient was clearly struggling with it, so I tossed them the idea of maybe asking about it after thr other student had concluded their interview so they would get enough for a meaningful interview, and sure enough the patient went from closed off to opening up to this other student with one simple question). I was trying to help them look better, not worse, and they did amazing after what would have been a wrapped up interview that went nowhere. I'm not cutthroat and just want to help patients by working together with my team but the attending just couldn't understand that as a concept. Lesson learned, I guess.

 

[Neopolymath]

They weren't necessarily unhinged, just had very strong opinions about who is the teacher in medical settings and I tried to help another student with a difficult question by giving them a little hint that would get them in the right direction in a manner I thought was collaborative because they were a bit off base, but which the attending viewed as me trying to show off, which it wasn't at all. In my prior career as a respiratory therapist we collaborated all the time with physicians and nurses so I just did what I'd do during rounds in my old career (amd what people would do for me) but the attending insisted "it isn't your job to teach your fellow students" and basically ripped me apart and caused my grade to drop from honors to the only pass I ever received. I tossed them one line that helped them get on the right track (they forgot to ask about trauma, and the patient was clearly struggling with it, so I tossed them the idea of maybe asking about it after thr other student had concluded their interview so they would get enough for a meaningful interview, and sure enough the patient went from closed off to opening up to this other student with one simple question). I was trying to help them look better, not worse, and they did amazing after what would have been a wrapped up interview that went nowhere. I'm not cutthroat and just want to help patients by working together with my team but the attending just couldn't understand that as a concept. Lesson learned, I guess.

I had a situation that didn't result in a grade change but was similar in initial reception. A student was getting killed over and over with pimp questions. He sais he didn't know the answer at all to the last one and then the attending just didn't do or say anything for what was probably 2 minutes. In every other situation in my adult life (in and out of medicine) this was an open floor to continue the conversation so the learning could continue so I said "maybe it has to do X" as a hint that was phrased as a question so this we could all move on and this dude's beating would end. He got the question right and then the attending got so mad I almost laughed at how childish it was. This attending never assigned questions according to seniority like classical pimping and we never had this problem the previous days or after.

Some people are just losers. That said, even if their eQ is basically zero they still control your grade so you just have to play the game and then move on with your life.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They weren't necessarily unhinged, just had very strong opinions about who is the teacher in medical settings and I tried to help another student with a difficult question by giving them a little hint that would get them in the right direction in a manner I thought was collaborative because they were a bit off base, but which the attending viewed as me trying to show off, which it wasn't at all. In my prior career as a respiratory therapist we collaborated all the time with physicians and nurses so I just did what I'd do during rounds in my old career (amd what people would do for me) but the attending insisted "it isn't your job to teach your fellow students" and basically ripped me apart and caused my grade to drop from honors to the only pass I ever received. I tossed them one line that helped them get on the right track (they forgot to ask about trauma, and the patient was clearly struggling with it, so I tossed them the idea of maybe asking about it after thr other student had concluded their interview so they would get enough for a meaningful interview, and sure enough the patient went from closed off to opening up to this other student with one simple question). I was trying to help them look better, not worse, and they did amazing after what would have been a wrapped up interview that went nowhere. I'm not cutthroat and just want to help patients by working together with my team but the attending just couldn't understand that as a concept. Lesson learned, I guess.

You softly tell someone to back off and not violate your rules once. You make a big deal if it becomes a repeat offense. But honestly people who take little things too seriously are cringe.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I had a situation that didn't result in a grade change but was similar in initial reception. A student was getting killed over and over with pimp questions. He sais he didn't know the answer at all to the last one and then the attending just didn't do or say anything for what was probably 2 minutes. In every other situation in my adult life (in and out of medicine) this was an open floor to continue the conversation so the learning could continue so I said "maybe it has to do X" as a hint that was phrased as a question so this we could all move on and this dude's beating would end. He got the question right and then the attending got so mad I almost laughed at how childish it was. This attending never assigned questions according to seniority like classical pimping and we never had this problem the previous days or after.

Some people are just losers. That said, even if their eQ is basically zero they still control your grade so you just have to play the game and then move on with your life.

Lol what people do to get their jollies.

 

[Mad Jack]

I had a situation that didn't result in a grade change but was similar in initial reception. A student was getting killed over and over with pimp questions. He sais he didn't know the answer at all to the last one and then the attending just didn't do or say anything for what was probably 2 minutes. In every other situation in my adult life (in and out of medicine) this was an open floor to continue the conversation so the learning could continue so I said "maybe it has to do X" as a hint that was phrased as a question so this we could all move on and this dude's beating would end. He got the question right and then the attending got so mad I almost laughed at how childish it was. This attending never assigned questions according to seniority like classical pimping and we never had this problem the previous days or after.

Some people are just losers. That said, even if their eQ is basically zero they still control your grade so you just have to play the game and then move on with your life.

Pretty much exactly my situation. Sometimes it be like that but I'll do my best to be a better teacher than they were to me I guess