resident interested in nonclinical profession

[IMundecided]

I've been having an existential crisis for a year now. I graduated as an MD and went into IM residency. Turns out I hated patient care (not going into specifics, just to suffice that I'm sure many other residents can echo my sentiments) and I opted to go into pathology. Now I've almost completed one year of pathology, but I still don't feel excited about medicine.

I have been looking at nonclinical jobs for several months now, but have been too scared to take the leap in applying for any of them. I don't know why, I guess it's because medicine is all I have ever known for the past 4+ years and it's new territory out there.

I am also wary about how changing residencies in the middle of the year does not look the greatest on one's resume. The thing is, is that I know I don't want to do medicine for forever, that I want to travel while I'm still young, and that I would rather do anything else besides patient care. I have looked into McKinsey or Bain for a possible job, but am not sure if my credentials are up to par. Ivy league college, but mediocre medical school. I have taken an interest in streamlining electronic medical records and was interested in doing bioinformatics as a fellowship, but now I just want to bypass that.

For example, I heard (and read about on the forums that) McKinsey is a great place to learn about business. It's a great place where you can learn to interact with people in an efficacious manner as well as groom yourself as a leader. I'm tired of taking the back burner as a doctor. I didn't do medicine to become a social worker. I went into it to make a change. It sounds like I would be able to do more good as a consultant for a healthcare company like McKinsey (or something similar).

Any thoughts or tips about any of the topics mentioned above would be appreciated. I'm sure I'm not the first (or last) resident who has done this.

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[Frazier]

I've been having an existential crisis for a year now. I graduated as an MD and went into IM residency. Turns out I hated patient care (not going into specifics, just to suffice that I'm sure many other residents can echo my sentiments) and I opted to go into pathology. Now I've almost completed one year of pathology, but I still don't feel excited about medicine.

I have been looking at nonclinical jobs for several months now, but have been too scared to take the leap in applying for any of them. I don't know why, I guess it's because medicine is all I have ever known for the past 4+ years and it's new territory out there.

I am also wary about how changing residencies in the middle of the year does not look the greatest on one's resume. The thing is, is that I know I don't want to do medicine for forever, that I want to travel while I'm still young, and that I would rather do anything else besides patient care. I have looked into McKinsey or Bain for a possible job, but am not sure if my credentials are up to par. Ivy league college, but mediocre medical school. I have taken an interest in streamlining electronic medical records and was interested in doing bioinformatics as a fellowship, but now I just want to bypass that.

For example, I heard (and read about on the forums that) McKinsey is a great place to learn about business. It's a great place where you can learn to interact with people in an efficacious manner as well as groom yourself as a leader. I'm tired of taking the back burner as a doctor. I didn't do medicine to become a social worker. I went into it to make a change. It sounds like I would be able to do more good as a consultant for a healthcare company like McKinsey (or something similar).

Any thoughts or tips about any of the topics mentioned above would be appreciated. I'm sure I'm not the first (or last) resident who has done this.

If you want more insight on life as a consultant at one of the big firms, read/search wallstreetoasis (google search it).

I don't know about "making a change/doing more good" as a consultant. The scope of the job, similar to being a physician, is often cut'n'dry. You consult with businesses in regards to whatever area/industry that your focus is in.

I think the greater chance for change comes after you exit and, say, held an admin/exec position at a large business. However, many don't get that far...

That said, often people claim that the value of the MD initials is little when they aren't supported with the experience/cred of a completed residency...Nevertheless, there always seems to be a student or two heading to consulting right out of HMS pre-residency....but, then again, that's someone with a harvard degree to help push them along.

It is a shame that the IM residency didnt work out. Only 3 years total right? Well, no use in crying over spilt milk; how much longer would it take you to finish the path residency? Do you think you could grind through it? I think there might be some redflags if you leave it early, quitting twice will not go over well with future potential employers (regardless of sector). The lifestyle of consulting is often somewhat grueling, and while most only stay in the field for 2-3 years, being labeled as a habitual "quitter" will likely be seen as a character flaw and shut doors early.

Lastly, you mentioned that you feel working for mcK will "be a great place to learn about business". This might be true, depending on what you mean exactly. McK may offer experience with further understanding of the workings of upper-level management; McK will not give you a MBA-esque knowledgebase - you should have that prior to applying to any of these firms. You will get business cases to analyze during your interviews -- and if the only knowledge you have is of medicine (ie you have NO knowledge of business) -- you will fail miserably.

Have you considered an MBA? Some are 1yr, some are cheap, in-state can be very cheap. Path residency is known for being somewhat cush, no? (Well, in comparison to surg...) perhaps you can find a night/online mba and complete it while finishing your path residency (i'm not talking about "online", as in U Phoenix... rather amherst, indiana etc. All reputable programs. UNC just started offering an online mba and they are top 20; however, they are very $$$$).

In your case, the utility of the mba isn't to differentiate yourself. Therefore, it doesn't necessarily have to be "top 7 b-school or bust". Thousands have mba's; few have MD's... that's your differentiation. The utility of the mba is to instill the knowledge, networking and focused career goals that will carry you through the next stage of your life.

Good luck.

 

[IMundecided]

If you want more insight on life as a consultant at one of the big firms, read/search wallstreetoasis (google search it).

I don't know about "making a change/doing more good" as a consultant. The scope of the job, similar to being a physician, is often cut'n'dry. You consult with businesses in regards to whatever area/industry that your focus is in.

I think the greater chance for change comes after you exit and, say, held an admin/exec position at a large business. However, many don't get that far...

That said, often people claim that the value of the MD initials is little when they aren't supported with the experience/cred of a completed residency...Nevertheless, there always seems to be a student or two heading to consulting right out of HMS pre-residency....but, then again, that's someone with a harvard degree to help push them along.

It is a shame that the IM residency didnt work out. Only 3 years total right? Well, no use in crying over spilt milk; how much longer would it take you to finish the path residency? Do you think you could grind through it? I think there might be some redflags if you leave it early, quitting twice will not go over well with future potential employers (regardless of sector). The lifestyle of consulting is often somewhat grueling, and while most only stay in the field for 2-3 years, being labeled as a habitual "quitter" will likely be seen as a character flaw and shut doors early.

Lastly, you mentioned that you feel working for mcK will "be a great place to learn about business". This might be true, depending on what you mean exactly. McK may offer experience with further understanding of the workings of upper-level management; McK will not give you a MBA-esque knowledgebase - you should have that prior to applying to any of these firms. You will get business cases to analyze during your interviews -- and if the only knowledge you have is of medicine (ie you have NO knowledge of business) -- you will fail miserably.

Have you considered an MBA? Some are 1yr, some are cheap, in-state can be very cheap. Path residency is known for being somewhat cush, no? (Well, in comparison to surg...) perhaps you can find a night/online mba and complete it while finishing your path residency (i'm not talking about "online", as in U Phoenix... rather amherst, indiana etc. All reputable programs. UNC just started offering an online mba and they are top 20; however, they are very $$$$).

In your case, the utility of the mba isn't to differentiate yourself. Therefore, it doesn't necessarily have to be "top 7 b-school or bust". Thousands have mba's; few have MD's... that's your differentiation. The utility of the mba is to instill the knowledge, networking and focused career goals that will carry you through the next stage of your life.

Good luck.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. I know that there are plenty of threads that discuss the topic at hand. But since no one has the same exact experience, I thought I would throw something out there.

Yes, I definitely agree that I am in a situation that isn't great. IM is 3 years and path is 4 years. I want to say that I can stick it out, but it's hard to say that with confidence when I know that I don't want to do medicine all my life. I feel pressured, just like other residents, to keep going through with this because I have so much debt. But what's the point when I don't even enjoy it? I wish I could have understood this and acted on it when I was still in medical school or even before applying to medical school, but that's neither here nor there. I went into medical school for the right reasons, but after seeing what medicine really was during residency, I wanted nothing to do with it. I thought pathology would give me some satisfaction but it has turned out not to be the case.

I have thought about an MBA. I wasn't sure how to go about doing it, although I did look at business schools online, even driving to NYC to go to Stern. I thought about simply working as an MD for a pharmaceutical company, but then I read how difficult it is to get a job in that sector. I researched what I may be interested in outside medicine but it seems that everything I discover only gives me concern about the risk. I think I read somewhere on another thread how it's the people who are inherently brilliant and have excellent people skills who climb up the corporate ladder easily, while average people usually don't last that long. I'm unfortunately part of the latter, which also gives me pause about this entire thing.

I read articles from Dr. Kim's blog as well as others about how MDs have found fulfilling jobs outside of medicine and I was hoping for that. I haven't been able to find a field within medicine that gives me at least some satisfaction, which is embarrassing because I have been searching. I would really like to be that resident who gets a sense of fulfillment in what they do, no matter how small. Now I feel stuck and can't do much besides wait this whole thing out. Not sure what one can say to all this. It's just sad that I went through college and medical school and now not being able to get through residency will severely limit non clinical job prospects as I will be labeled a quitter.

 

[Frazier]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. I know that there are plenty of threads that discuss the topic at hand. But since no one has the same exact experience, I thought I would throw something out there.

Yes, I definitely agree that I am in a situation that isn't great. IM is 3 years and path is 4 years. I want to say that I can stick it out, but it's hard to say that with confidence when I know that I don't want to do medicine all my life. I feel pressured, just like other residents, to keep going through with this because I have so much debt. But what's the point when I don't even enjoy it? I wish I could have understood this and acted on it when I was still in medical school or even before applying to medical school, but that's neither here nor there. I went into medical school for the right reasons, but after seeing what medicine really was during residency, I wanted nothing to do with it. I thought pathology would give me some satisfaction but it has turned out not to be the case.

I have thought about an MBA. I wasn't sure how to go about doing it, although I did look at business schools online, even driving to NYC to go to Stern. I thought about simply working as an MD for a pharmaceutical company, but then I read how difficult it is to get a job in that sector. I researched what I may be interested in outside medicine but it seems that everything I discover only gives me concern about the risk. I think I read somewhere on another thread how it's the people who are inherently brilliant and have excellent people skills who climb up the corporate ladder easily, while average people usually don't last that long. I'm unfortunately part of the latter, which also gives me pause about this entire thing.

I read articles from Dr. Kim's blog as well as others about how MDs have found fulfilling jobs outside of medicine and I was hoping for that. I haven't been able to find a field within medicine that gives me at least some satisfaction, which is embarrassing because I have been searching. I would really like to be that resident who gets a sense of fulfillment in what they do, no matter how small. Now I feel stuck and can't do much besides wait this whole thing out. Not sure what one can say to all this. It's just sad that I went through college and medical school and now not being able to get through residency will severely limit non clinical job prospects as I will be labeled a quitter.

I agree, your situation is both interesting and adds value to the forum by documenting yet another case of transitioning to careers outside the traditional clinic role.

The burden of finishing residency is understandable, especially if, as you said, you have not much passion left for it. However, as you know, you would be able to reap the benefit of credibility with it under your belt.

Concerning the mba, b-schools love md applicants that have well-thought out plans. Your clinical years in med school and residency count as "work experience" in their admissions process, so that won't be an issue. Furthermore, stern is an awesome school if that was an option for you.

It sounds like you already recognize one of the major benefits of being a physician: job stability. (Although, I have heard otherwise about pathology?) The corporate world has a lot more variability, as you recognize, both with income and security.

What are the hours looking like in your current program? Do you think a part-time, weekend, or online mba program would be able go fit while sufficiently fulfilling your residency duties?

 

[IMundecided]

I agree, your situation is both interesting and adds value to the forum by documenting yet another case of transitioning to careers outside the traditional clinic role.

The burden of finishing residency is understandable, especially if, as you said, you have not much passion left for it. However, as you know, you would be able to reap the benefit of credibility with it under your belt.

Concerning the mba, b-schools love md applicants that have well-thought out plans. Your clinical years in med school and residency count as "work experience" in their admissions process, so that won't be an issue. Furthermore, stern is an awesome school if that was an option for you.

It sounds like you already recognize one of the major benefits of being a physician: job stability. (Although, I have heard otherwise about pathology?) The corporate world has a lot more variability, as you recognize, both with income and security.

What are the hours looking like in your current program? Do you think a part-time, weekend, or online mba program would be able go fit while sufficiently fulfilling your residency duties?

The program I am at is pretty nice, especially compared to that of surgery, as you mentioned before, I believe. There is a lot of grossing here compared to other programs, but it's still not that bad compared to the hours of other fields. My busiest months are service months, which can have me at work from 6 am to 8 pm (or 10 pm at the latest so far). But in a sense, I'm glad I'm in pathology because I have a little more flexibility with my schedule and my weekends are usually pretty free. That will change once I advance in the program, obviously. I tried looking into Stern for an MBA, but it would have required me to drive to NYC every weekend to attend classes. So I am back to square one and thinking that an online MBA would be more conducive to my needs. But again, it's this constant vacillating back-and-forth of "Oh, that sounds interesting" with "Oh, I need these credentials to even be considered for an interview." It's frustrating to say the least.

As for job stability in pathology...I have read threads on job markets for pathology and I am not that encouraged by it. The stuff that I want to do are things like informatics, things that have a very small and narrow niche. I know I would not be that marketable inside medicine with just an informatics fellowship, which is why I thought about going into consulting in the first place. There is a "substantial minority" of graduated pathology fellows (of all fields) who cannot find jobs and that concerns me, as everyone assures me that medicine is truly one of those recession-proof fields. Pathology seems to be an exception of sorts.

But yes, in the end, I do understand that medicine is more stable than finance jobs usually. With the recession still rolling along, I don't think people are doing a lot of hiring, especially for someone who has already skipped out on one residency and is still not happy currently. I just wish I could have been happy with residency just like everyone else, it would make life so much simpler and I wouldn't sound so ungrateful for the opportunities presented to me. Sadly, life is not fair like that and here I am trying to figure out what to do next.

 

[notinkansas]

I started in general surgery and bailed out of that residency. I was able to land a temporary moonlighting job, with the original plan being to go in to anesthesia. Not because I loved anesthesia, but because I couldn't think of anything better to do. I hate patient care too, but I was worried about the pathology job market. Then I had the opportunity to be referred into a Big 4 firm, into their health care advisory section. It was good, for a while- better than patient care. The travel gets old, though and still prevents you from having a life. And, especially after being in medicine, corporate america is sometimes unbelievably stupid. Many times we were up late, or working on weekends putting together a freaking powerpoint just to meet some arbitrary deadline. Places like McKinsey and Bain are even worse in this regard- the kind of places where people come in early and stay late regardless of whether there is work to be done, just to be seen by the higher ups and to be perceived as working hard.

I worked there a couple years, and recently got laid off. Consulting firms are more subject to the economy than medicine is. I'm having a hard time finding new work. A couple of obstacles:
1. Not being board certified. This drives me nuts. Organized medicine is really pushing the board certification racket. You are at very high risk as being perceived as being a problem if you don't jump through all the hoops needed to get board certified. I can't even get a job reviewing charts at an insurance company without board certification. People assume that if you didn't finish a residency and take the test, something bad happened. This is a total racket and passing a standardized test doesn't mean you are a good doctor. But, sadly, it's true.
2. No MBA. This is really only an issue in light of #1- meaning, that without BC AND No MBA people assume I'm not capable.

Sadly, even in today's age, if you quit a second residency that will be seen by many, if not most, as a huge red flag. Doesn't matter if you like the work of medicine or not. No sense making things harder than they have to be. Maybe do MBA afterward while doing locum work.

My advice, painful as it is, stick with it and finish a residency. Play the game and get the Board Certification. You can always do locum work. Pay attention to the business aspects while you are in residency. I'm actually getting my application together to apply to a family practice residency so that I can just finish something as quickly as possible and work locum. It will be very, very painful but it's going to be the only way to get money coming back in. Without that board certification, it's almost impossible to get work. Doing anything. (a side benefit is it's recession proof- being laid off and on unemployment is NOT FUN). I was VERY lucky to get a chance to work with that firm, and they almost didn't hire me because of it. It's very hard to get adjusted to corporate america, and I think economic conditions aren't going to be great for a number of years.

Many days I think I'd be happier just working for Starbucks. But that won't pay off my student loans. And try to get hired there with MD degree. HA.

 

[Frazier]

Thanks for sharing your story, notinkansas. It was a great read and very insightful.

Looking forward, once you are working locum, do you plan on again looking for job opportunities "outside" of the clinic -- or do you plan on sticking solely to FM?

 

[michaelrack]

Many days I think I'd be happier just working for Starbucks. But that won't pay off my student loans. And try to get hired there with MD degree. HA.

I know an MD who did work for a while in a Starbucks inside of Barnes and Nobles during an interruption in residency training.

 

[PRinterval]

As an MSIV, I echo some of the thoughts of the OP regarding my lack of interest in patient care. I also looked around in many of the same places for alternative paths. I ended up applying to the Big 3 consulting and I am sitting on a couple offers. To the OP, I can tell you that you do not need a big name medical school to get a look, and you do not need an MBA to be successful in the interviews. They are looking for common sense, dexterity with numbers, and poise under pressure.

As doctors, we are trained to rack up the credentials. In most other roles, you are defined by what you get done, and not by what certificate you have obtained. I find this both liberating and frightening. The beauty and the boredom of medicine is that if you slog through the years and pass the test at the end, someone will pay you to come into work and punch your ticket and do the same thing every day. In most other fields, the path is not so prescribed. I personally crave that excitement, but I fear the risk of flaming out without the safety net of residency training and board certification. Too much indoctrination in medicine I suppose...

Leaving the security of medicine is a tough decision. The story by notinkansas might scare me back. But lots and lots of people have long careers in business and other industries without collecting a wall full of diplomas and certifications that say they can do the job. And by the law of averages, I'm pretty sure most of them are pretty close to average...

 

[inspirationmd]

I started in general surgery and bailed out of that residency. I was able to land a temporary moonlighting job, with the original plan being to go in to anesthesia. Not because I loved anesthesia, but because I couldn't think of anything better to do. I hate patient care too, but I was worried about the pathology job market. Then I had the opportunity to be referred into a Big 4 firm, into their health care advisory section. It was good, for a while- better than patient care. The travel gets old, though and still prevents you from having a life. And, especially after being in medicine, corporate america is sometimes unbelievably stupid. Many times we were up late, or working on weekends putting together a freaking powerpoint just to meet some arbitrary deadline. Places like McKinsey and Bain are even worse in this regard- the kind of places where people come in early and stay late regardless of whether there is work to be done, just to be seen by the higher ups and to be perceived as working hard.

I worked there a couple years, and recently got laid off. Consulting firms are more subject to the economy than medicine is. I'm having a hard time finding new work. A couple of obstacles:
1. Not being board certified. This drives me nuts. Organized medicine is really pushing the board certification racket. You are at very high risk as being perceived as being a problem if you don't jump through all the hoops needed to get board certified. I can't even get a job reviewing charts at an insurance company without board certification. People assume that if you didn't finish a residency and take the test, something bad happened. This is a total racket and passing a standardized test doesn't mean you are a good doctor. But, sadly, it's true.
2. No MBA. This is really only an issue in light of #1- meaning, that without BC AND No MBA people assume I'm not capable.

Sadly, even in today's age, if you quit a second residency that will be seen by many, if not most, as a huge red flag. Doesn't matter if you like the work of medicine or not. No sense making things harder than they have to be. Maybe do MBA afterward while doing locum work.

My advice, painful as it is, stick with it and finish a residency. Play the game and get the Board Certification. You can always do locum work. Pay attention to the business aspects while you are in residency. I'm actually getting my application together to apply to a family practice residency so that I can just finish something as quickly as possible and work locum. It will be very, very painful but it's going to be the only way to get money coming back in. Without that board certification, it's almost impossible to get work. Doing anything. (a side benefit is it's recession proof- being laid off and on unemployment is NOT FUN). I was VERY lucky to get a chance to work with that firm, and they almost didn't hire me because of it. It's very hard to get adjusted to corporate america, and I think economic conditions aren't going to be great for a number of years.

Many days I think I'd be happier just working for Starbucks. But that won't pay off my student loans. And try to get hired there with MD degree. HA.

Consider Occupational Medicine. Complete an intern year and apply. Good demand and while it is clinical to an extent it can end up being pretty corporate as well. Comes with an MPH you get while in the 2 year residency.

Did research with some prominent OEM MDs in college and I have to admit I am tempted to at least partially get into it for my career. Some of these guys are bosses!

Check out this newsletter. It talks about getting an MBA in OEM which helps but is not 100% necessary. I'd read it for the profiles though.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/oemr/files/harvardsph_md-mba_in_om_2012.pdf

 

[Food]

So how is this path progressing for you? I'm an MSIII and really re-evaluating my path forward. I like patient care, I enjoy medicine. But I'm not sure that I can put with all the BS, and the BS is increasing. I'm considering finishing up a short residency and then maybe working for a while, and then going into something where I have more flexibility in terms of thinking and scheduling. So much of medicine just seems like a routine, rut style of thinking these days.

 

[Everglore]

Man ,

I am coming from exactly where you are but the only difference is that I am an international medical student with masters as well in Haem/Onc

I don't like the patient care , I like consultancy more and now since I work in pre-clinical lab . I like research a lot and comparing between Health care management vs Research career and work in industry

I have to say that I spent 7 years in medical school then 3 years residency with finishing masters in it . I failed step 2 USMLE also

I do like Technology and also thought about Bioinformatics before but now I think I want to do masters in either Research or Health care management and work as a consultant in McKinsey and co..

It s good that we are at the same boat . tell me where have you reached and even PM me . I want to know the info you have gathered as I am so desperate to know what I want .