Residency Stats Discussion Thread

[ttopping]

Lesson: Grades>work experience, unless you take it to the next level at your work and have something concrete to show for it (monographs/guidelines/research). And judging by the tentative results here, don't apply for big name programs unless you have at least a 3.5 + standard residency materials. Maybe a 3.25 with really good recs, research, things that really push you over the top, etc. Also, it helps if you don't apply local; both of my interviews were out of state.

Maybe for initial screening purposes but once you get beyond that point and into the interview, grades don't give you anything to talk about or any real world experience. They want to see how you interact, how you fit into the program, how you can communicate, how you handle certain situations. I asked almost every interview group I was in what they were looking for in a resident. Not one mentioned grades or smarts (at this level, it's relatively safe to assume if you're being interviewed you're not an idiot). So yes, if you don't have a loaded CV, decent grades might push you beyond screening (and obviously good grades never hurt), but other than that it doesn't tell you a whole lot about a person IMO.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[psychoandy]

Maybe for initial screening purposes but once you get beyond that point and into the interview, grades don't give you anything to talk about or any real world experience. They want to see how you interact, how you fit into the program, how you can communicate, how you handle certain situations. I asked almost every interview group I was in what they were looking for in a resident. Not one mentioned grades or smarts (at this level, it's relatively safe to assume if you're being interviewed you're not an idiot). So yes, if you don't have a loaded CV, decent grades might push you beyond screening (and obviously good grades never hurt), but other than that it doesn't tell you a whole lot about a person IMO.

I completely agree, I just believe that in terms of getting your foot in the door it definitely matters especially as it pertains to me, with GPA below 3. Way easier to check GPA vs reading each cv and 3 lor.

 

[ttopping]

I completely agree, I just believe that in terms of getting your foot in the door it definitely matters especially as it pertains to me, with GPA below 3. Way easier to check GPA vs reading each cv and 3 lor.

True story

Edit: All I was trying to say was that grades only matter to a certain extent (easy screening, I totally agree), and beyond some unknown threshold it just becomes a number

 

[spacecowgirl]

I completely agree, I just believe that in terms of getting your foot in the door it definitely matters especially as it pertains to me, with GPA below 3. Way easier to check GPA vs reading each cv and 3 lor.

That's what I keep trying to tell people but it always evolves into an (absurd) argument that GPA and social apptitude are mutually exclusive.

I don't doubt for one second that there are stellar pharmacists with less than stellar GPAs. And that GPA does not matter later. But, I do think though that there has to be some easy metric to screen apps when you receive a metric crap-ton per spot. It only makes sense.

...and now cue someone coming in and telling me they hope they never apply at my program, I'm close-minded, blah blah blah.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

That's what I keep trying to tell people but it always evolves into an (absurd) argument that GPA and social apptitude are mutually exclusive.

I don't doubt for one second that there are stellar pharmacists with less than stellar GPAs. And that GPA does not matter later. But, I do think though that there has to be some easy metric to screen apps when you receive a metric crap-ton per spot. It only makes sense.

...and now cue someone coming in and telling me they hope they never apply at my program, I'm close-minded, blah blah blah.

You are a terrible person, close-minded and I will never never never apply to your program not even if you paid me!! And you smell!!!

Was that good?



Seriously, I agree that grades are a reasonable screening tool. You have to narrow things down somehow when faced with a mountain of paper. If I were doing the initial screen, I would probably not look too closely at students with < 3.0 unless I knew the student or if they came highly recommended by a close colleague. That said, I have a lot of empathy for people who've had challenges or disruptions in their pharmacy education, because I've had both. It's tough.

 

[Praziquantel86]

That's what I keep trying to tell people but it always evolves into an (absurd) argument that GPA and social apptitude are mutually exclusive.

I don't doubt for one second that there are stellar pharmacists with less than stellar GPAs. And that GPA does not matter later. But, I do think though that there has to be some easy metric to screen apps when you receive a metric crap-ton per spot. It only makes sense.

...and now cue someone coming in and telling me they hope they never apply at my program, I'm close-minded, blah blah blah.

I never understood why that feeling seems to be unique to pharmacy (among the professional schools, at least). It's an accepted truth that in order to get into Ortho or Derm you need top USMLE scores + publications + clinical honors, or to get into OMFS you need to be at the top of your dental class. I've never found these people to be any more socially awkward than their peers (well, maybe some of the derm academic folks...)

I think it might be denial of the fact that you still have to work hard to get places in life. I think the entire C = PharmD mantra has gotten to people, and that's a complete shame. It's just not relevant anymore in the residency market. I think it should switch to A = OK!

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I never understood why that feeling seems to be unique to pharmacy (among the professional schools, at least). It's an accepted truth that in order to get into Ortho or Derm you need top USMLE scores + publications + clinical honors, or to get into OMFS you need to be at the top of your dental class. I've never found these people to be any more socially awkward than their peers (well, maybe some of the derm academic folks...)

I think it might be denial of the fact that you still have to work hard to get places in life. I think the entire C = PharmD mantra has gotten to people, and that's a complete shame. It's just not relevant anymore in the residency market. I think it should switch to A = OK!

I think maybe part of what drives the bias against high grades is the attitudes of certain people (like some SDN posters) who value grades above anything else and only get superficially involved in organizations to pad their CVs. Plus have no work experience and refuse to work during school because they have to keep their 4.0 GPA. I know a few people like that on SDN and IRL and they are annoying as ****. I just don't see how they'll make great pharmacists but maybe I am wrong.

The second type of person who is obnoxious and annoying is the gunner type who after EVERY exam posts (on SDN or FB or wherever) one of two things: Either "I ass raped the cardio exam! Yay me!" or "ID exam today. FML." When they get a lower grade than they wanted they act like their lives are over and they'll never get a job/match into a top residency/have sex again. EVERYTHING is a big deal and big drama. They constantly compare themselves to others and have no perspective whatsoever.

I'm not sure which type annoys me more. [/rant]

But in general, I don't think high grades necessarily = social ******. That's not a fair generalization.

 

[Praziquantel86]

I think maybe part of what drives the bias against high grades is the attitudes of certain people (like some SDN posters) who value grades above anything else and only get superficially involved in organizations to pad their CVs. Plus have no work experience and refuse to work during school because they have to keep their 4.0 GPA. I know a few people like that on SDN and IRL and they are annoying as ****. I just don't see how they'll make great pharmacists but maybe I am wrong.

The second type of person who is obnoxious and annoying is the gunner type who after EVERY exam posts (on SDN or FB or wherever) one of two things: Either "I ass raped the cardio exam! Yay me!" or "ID exam today. FML." When they get a lower grade than they wanted they act like their lives are over and they'll never get a job/match into a top residency/have sex again. EVERYTHING is a big deal and big drama. They constantly compare themselves to others and have no perspective whatsoever.

I'm not sure which type annoys me more. [/rant]

But in general, I don't think high grades necessarily = social ******. That's not a fair generalization.

I'll agree, both of those people suck. But I think based on this thread, people can clearly see that it's quite possible to do a whole ton of stuff and maintain a good GPA. I know I also had plenty of time to live my life and commit youthful indiscretions (is there a verb form of indiscretion? Indiscretionalize?) on the side. I'd imagine it was the same for the rest of the people in this thread.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

Thanks for posting your information everyone! It's interesting to see the stats. It definitely helps motivate me to keep pushing myself. I do admit that as each semester passes, I get even more nervous about applying for residency. I'm almost finished with P2 year, and I still have a ways to go, but I know it'll be here sooner than I think.

 

[KARM12]

the only reason why I ranked them lower on my list is that they've had a history of residents leaving the program halfway through in the past two years...but that is not necessarily a reflection of the program, as previous residents have done very well for themselves in the program- perhaps those residents really didn't know what they were getting themselves into and were not committed to it. I am very excited to start the program, and I hope that it fares to be a great opportunity.

I think I can guess where you matched based on this/location... I think it is a combination of a somewhat malignant program and un-prepared residents. Totally a tough love situation, but you'll learn a lot in the end.

 

[miceheart]

However, I've talked to several program directors and they say since this year is so competitive and all the candidates are so great. they will start to nick picking little that will disqualify the applicant since there are only so little people they can invite for interview. so compared with other applicant who also have great working expience with good grade, it start to matter.

I completely agree, I just believe that in terms of getting your foot in the door it definitely matters especially as it pertains to me, with GPA below 3. Way easier to check GPA vs reading each cv and 3 lor.

 

[spacecowgirl]

You are a terrible person, close-minded and I will never never never apply to your program not even if you paid me!! And you smell!!!

*Cries* I'm still waiting for the PA to go through on my Botox for hyperhidrosis!

I always think of you when I think about people who maintained a great GPA in the face of the most devastating thing I can think of. Although nowhere near your level of adversity, I had a lot of very seriously bad crap happen to me during school too and still graduated with a 3.75. I am GPA biased, I guess. It's not that it indicates someone is smarter per se, but it shows to me that a person can handle stress and prioritize and step up when they need to. That's worth a lot IMO.

I never understood why that feeling seems to be unique to pharmacy (among the professional schools, at least). It's an accepted truth that in order to get into Ortho or Derm you need top USMLE scores + publications + clinical honors, or to get into OMFS you need to be at the top of your dental class. I've never found these people to be any more socially awkward than their peers (well, maybe some of the derm academic folks...)

I think it might be denial of the fact that you still have to work hard to get places in life. I think the entire C = PharmD mantra has gotten to people, and that's a complete shame. It's just not relevant anymore in the residency market. I think it should switch to A = OK!

Excellent points. It's like the job market now. The "anyone with a license and a pulse" mantra held for so long that people are now crying that the market is competitive. Give me a break. You should have to bust ass for a six-figures job. Sheesh.

As a now 7+ member of SDN, I have to say I feel really proud of this year's "class" of members and how well you guys have done. Awwwww.

 

[xiphoid2010]

seems like 3.65 is the sweet spot eh?

sounds about right, roughly the average for our candidates this year. I think once anyone reach a 3.5 we no longer question their intelligence and work habit. But <3.0 is certainly looks bad.

We didn't interview anyone with <3.0 this year, not because it's a hard cut off, but with so many good applicants, anyone who did poorly in any one score category could not make the total score needed to get an interview slot. Despite increasing the interviews per spot from 6:1 last year to 8:1 this year, the total score needed to get an interview went up ~6% vs last year (30 vs 28).

Next year the score cut off will go higher, as almost everyone complained that interviewing this many candidates took up too much work time, so they will go back to interviewing 6:1 next year. Man, and I thought when it was competitive when I graduated in 2010.

 

[bacillus1]

-GPA: around 3.9
-Type of PharmD program (3 or 4 year): 4 year (2+4 school)
-Geographic location: New England
-Activities: LKS, APhA, CSHP, pharmacy student government, PLS, Rho Chi, research (1 publication, involved in 4 projects)
-Leadership positions: treasurer of LKS, PSG rep for CSHP
-Community service: tons with the organizations
-Work experience in the field of pharmacy: retail for 8 years (independent and 2 chains)
-Work experience outside of pharmacy: chemistry tutor, dining hall student employee

For PGY1, I applied to around 8 programs (all teaching hospitals, although not all directly affiliated with med or pharmacy schools). I got 5 interview offers and attended 4. I ranked 3 programs and matched my #2 at a large hospital in DC (all acute care).

For PGY2 (oncology), I applied to 7 programs and interviewed at 4. I ranked all 4 and matched at my #1, a large SOP-affiliated program with both inpatient and clinic settings.

Your stats seem really good, so good that you could get an interview and get in anywhere.
Why do you think you only got 5/8 interviews?

 

[ucrx]

Your stats seem really good, so good that you could get an interview and get in anywhere.
Why do you think you only got 5/8 interviews?

I applied at really competitive places both years, so I'm sure that factors in. Another major thing is that there was an issue with one of my recommendations. The writer didn't get them in on time to about half of the places. Unfortunately this happened to several of us from my school, and a few places told us that they couldn't consider us because of it. Some sites won't review an application until they have every single piece. They might run out of interview slots by the time an application is complete, and too bad for you.

I don't think the letter was everything, but it certainly could have factored in. Large academic sites in major cities tend to be extra competitive. It doesn't matter if you're a great candidate- they get plenty of great applications. You have to somehow stand out to them more than others, and who knows what each site is looking for.

 

[p-rog]

Wow, all I have to say is NNNNNEEEERRRDDDDS

I decided to make an account and reply because I matched to one of the largest hospitals in the country with an associated pharmacy school and major center for the area. It was my first choice. I do not feel as though I am a stand out candidate on paper.
Things to include (suggested):

-GPA 3.6 no rho chi or awards
-Type of PharmD program 4 yr, only 3 yr undergrad no bs degree
-Geographic location east coast
-Activities none with pharmacy school. Did some volunteer work with parks and recreation and in my other hobby areas
-Leadership positions none. Absolutely zero I was not in any clubs except ashp to get cheaper rate at midyear. I attended 0 meetings. Just mentorship to students w outdoor activities
-Community service just the ippe that was required for school. Like i said I had some community service with the parks and rec
-Work experience in the field community pharmacy only. No hospital except appe and ippe through school
I applied to five places, got four interviews. Ranked four. Got my first choice.

For me my strength is in my personality and interview skills, as well as the cases I had to work and defend. I also took the time to write an amazing letter of intent, several program directors commented on how great it was. My cv was not 10 pages long, I could fit everything on a couple pages. There is hope for normal people.

Well people do always say that the CV is really just to get you the interview. After that, it's supposedly about your personality, so I guess your example makes sense too since you still had a solid GPA and EC/Community service activities on your CV to get you the interview.

Care to share your amazing letter of intent? I got lots of compliments from the professors I sent my letter of intent to review, but honestly, I can't imagine how a letter of intent would really blow anyone away. Most people pursing a residency by and large have the same career goals.

 

[Notecard]

Do all of your GPAs include undergrad classes or are they just your GPA from pharmacy school? I wasn't sure where else to ask this

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Do all of your GPAs include undergrad classes or are they just your GPA from pharmacy school? I wasn't sure where else to ask this

Mine is only pharmacy school (professional) coursework. No prepharmacy or undergraduate grades. And no grades from my master's degree. Those who did 0 to 6 programs have all six years in their GPAs (I think). Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[KARM12]

Honestly, I almost feel embarrassed to post this compared to everyone else. But hey, I need to give those less competitive candidates hope...

Why is that? You seem pretty competitive!

 

[tl11]

Why is that? You seem pretty competitive!

Really only because I know I'm not really competitive in terms of extracurricular activities, and I really just had good grades and (probably) good recommendations. Also I didn't really have too many community service activities and/or publications.

 

[KARM12]

Really only because I know I'm not really competitive in terms of extracurricular activities, and I really just had good grades and (probably) good recommendations. Also I didn't really have too many community service activities and/or publications.

But you were involved, I think that is most important. Plus you also had experience. I think it goes to show that it helps to be a total package when applying.

 

[rxlea]

I wanted to share with you guys an excerpt of an e-mail I received from a "prestigious" residency program regarding their ideal applicant. These are things that have been pointed out in the forum in various threads, but I thought it might help the rising pharm students out a little bit.

Hi XXX,
>>>We look for students with a good basis of acute care rotations, inpatient hospital work experience, a variety of presentations/publications, good grades and excellent letters of recommendation. Being motivated, dedicated, hard working, having strong time management and organizational skills, as well as the ability to incorporate feedback are important characteristics of successful residents.​

 

[Praziquantel86]

Hi all -

This thread is for the discussion of the stickied "2011 Match - The Stats Thread". Things to talk about here include, but are not limited to, how to make yourself a more well-rounded candidate, things programs look for and further discussion of applying to residency programs.

Matched applicants, please feel free to continue to post your statistics in the sticky thread.

This thread is NOT for debating the relative merit of completing a residency or other items not immediately applicable to the statistics thread.

 

[bacillus1]

I wanted to share with you guys an excerpt of an e-mail I received from a "prestigious" residency program regarding their ideal applicant. These are things that have been pointed out in the forum in various threads, but I thought it might help the rising pharm students out a little bit.

Hi XXX,
>>>We look for students with a good basis of acute care rotations, inpatient hospital work experience, a variety of presentations/publications, good grades and excellent letters of recommendation. Being motivated, dedicated, hard working, having strong time management and organizational skills, as well as the ability to incorporate feedback are important characteristics of successful residents.​

Well, that's stating the obvious. They want a candidate that has it all! Well, all isn't so easy to accomplish, and for some people all is impossible to accomplish (for example hospital work experience and publications).

 

[Praziquantel86]

Well, that's stating the obvious. They want a candidate that has it all! Well, all isn't so easy to accomplish, and for some people all is impossible to accomplish (for example hospital work experience and publications).

I don't think those are impossible at all. In fact, they're probably easier to achieve than the things that require a fundamental shift in personality (organization, communication, knowledge base, etc.). It certainly takes dedication in some cases and may be difficult, but difficulty is a piss-poor excuse for not accomplishing something.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Well, that's stating the obvious. They want a candidate that has it all! Well, all isn't so easy to accomplish, and for some people all is impossible to accomplish (for example hospital work experience and publications).

I don't think those are impossible at all. In fact, they're probably easier to achieve than the things that require a fundamental shift in personality (organization, communication, knowledge base, etc.). It certainly takes dedication in some cases and may be difficult, but difficulty is a piss-poor excuse for not accomplishing something.

I don't think the advice from the residency program is particularly enlightening, but I also don't think it's impossible to achieve. The toughest thing to nail down might be the hospital work experience, especially if students aren't already working in that environment. Those jobs are tough to come by these days.

But I agree with bacillus. It is kind of "canned" advice. Of course, they will say they want someone who "has it all." In general, people and applications are more than checking off checkboxes on a "To Do" list.

 

[Praziquantel86]

I don't think the advice from the residency program is particularly enlightening, but I also don't think it's impossible to achieve. The toughest thing to nail down might be the hospital work experience, especially if students aren't already working in that environment. Those jobs are tough to come by these days.

But I agree with bacillus. It is kind of "canned" advice. Of course, they will say they want someone who "has it all." In general, people and applications are more than checking off checkboxes on a "To Do" list.

I'll agree with you that it's canned advice, but it isn't bad advice by a long shot. The "better" (I can't think of a good word to describe them, by no means am I knocking anyone), typically University-affiliated, programs definitely take that message to heart.

A few of the programs I interviewed at had a point system for judging applicants and granting them interviews, with each checked box leading to a higher point total. As the process becomes more competitive, the point total needed to get an interview is just going to go up. The only way to do that is to check as many boxes as you can.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I'll agree with you that it's canned advice, but it isn't bad advice by a long shot. The "better" (I can't think of a good word to describe them, by no means am I knocking anyone), typically University-affiliated, programs definitely take that message to heart.

A few of the programs I interviewed at had a point system for judging applicants and granting them interviews, with each checked box leading to a higher point total. As the process becomes more competitive, the point total needed to get an interview is just going to go up. The only way to do that is to check as many boxes as you can.

Yeah, I agree with all that. But it's never simple. And as our (totally awesome) stats thread shows, people with all kinds of packages can get interviews and match.

About half of my programs use the point system too, but had discretionary points that they could add for unusual cases, etc.

 

[ufpsu26]

congrats to you all! Makes me so nervous that I'll be there in a couple of years!!

 

[Sparda29]

I'm confused about the process of the residency application. Tell me if I'm correct or wrong.

You apply to programs you're interested in --> Programs contact you, setup interviews --> Residency matching --> Programs contact people with residency offers

What I wanna know is what happens to the unfilled/unmatched positions? Is it pretty much first come/first serve in filling the position or will they have a separate interview process for this? What happens if you do not receive any interview offers prior to matching? Are you pretty much screwed? Or can you contact unfilled programs after the match and get the position?

I've been told by people that while GPA is beginning to matter, having a low GPA (C+/C) does not automatically reject you from getting a residency.

 

[fiorio]

You apply to programs you're interested in --> Programs contact you, setup interviews --> you rank the programs/programs rank candidates-->Residency match results come out --> Programs contact people with residency offers
you are pretty much correct

What I wanna know is what happens to the unfilled/unmatched positions? Is it pretty much first come/first serve in filling the position or will they have a separate interview process for this? --it's not first come first serve, but the earlier you contact the program, the better. it's a intense process for both the students and program directors. they want to fill their position ASAP with a qualified candidate. email your CV to them and letter of intent ASAP, they may contact you for interview.


What happens if you do not receive any interview offers prior to matching? Are you pretty much screwed?
so please apply to multiple programs if you think your chances are not that good.

Or can you contact unfilled programs after the match and get the position?
yes, scramble

I've been told by people that while GPA is beginning to matter, having a low GPA (C+/C) does not automatically reject you from getting a residency.
it's true. so be well-rounded.

I'm confused about the process of the residency application. Tell me if I'm correct or wrong.

You apply to programs you're interested in --> Programs contact you, setup interviews --> Residency matching --> Programs contact people with residency offers

What I wanna know is what happens to the unfilled/unmatched positions? Is it pretty much first come/first serve in filling the position or will they have a separate interview process for this? What happens if you do not receive any interview offers prior to matching? Are you pretty much screwed? Or can you contact unfilled programs after the match and get the position?

I've been told by people that while GPA is beginning to matter, having a low GPA (C+/C) does not automatically reject you from getting a residency.

 

[KARM12]

I'm confused about the process of the residency application. Tell me if I'm correct or wrong.

You apply to programs you're interested in --> Programs contact you, setup interviews --> Residency matching --> Programs contact people with residency offers

What I wanna know is what happens to the unfilled/unmatched positions? Is it pretty much first come/first serve in filling the position or will they have a separate interview process for this? What happens if you do not receive any interview offers prior to matching? Are you pretty much screwed? Or can you contact unfilled programs after the match and get the position?

I've been told by people that while GPA is beginning to matter, having a low GPA (C+/C) does not automatically reject you from getting a residency.

A program can choose what process they want to use to offer unmatched spots. Most gather CVs, narrow candidates, and conduct some sort of interview (usually phone).

If you don't get any interviews prior to the match, you will not match. You will have access to the scramble list if you signed up for the match. You can contact programs after the match for unfilled positions.

GPA is becoming an important factor to help weed through a large number of applicants. The most important thing is to be well rounded...GPA, activites, research, work.

 

[Sparda29]

A program can choose what process they want to use to offer unmatched spots. Most gather CVs, narrow candidates, and conduct some sort of interview (usually phone).

If you don't get any interviews prior to the match, you will not match. You will have access to the scramble list if you signed up for the match. You can contact programs after the match for unfilled positions.

GPA is becoming an important factor to help weed through a large number of applicants. The most important thing is to be well rounded...GPA, activites, research, work.

For me, there is no way to improve my GPA asides from whatever minute boosts that I could get from acing elective classes. (Rotations start P3 year and are not graded.) Our school has remediation but from what I understand, it's for people who got an F in the course and not for boosting GPA.

There's some activities/programs that I want to get started once I get past all the red tape.

 

[Praziquantel86]

For me, there is no way to improve my GPA asides from whatever minute boosts that I could get from acing elective classes. (Rotations start P3 year and are not graded.) Our school has remediation but from what I understand, it's for people who got an F in the course and not for boosting GPA.

There's some activities/programs that I want to get started once I get past all the red tape.

Make sure you get past the red tape. It'll be an uphill battle with a <3.0 GPA, so you'll need all the boosts you can get. Look into joining (and becoming active) in local hospital pharmacy groups (NYCSHSP loves students). That way you'll make contacts at least with the local programs.

 

[KARM12]

For me, there is no way to improve my GPA asides from whatever minute boosts that I could get from acing elective classes. (Rotations start P3 year and are not graded.) Our school has remediation but from what I understand, it's for people who got an F in the course and not for boosting GPA.

There's some activities/programs that I want to get started once I get past all the red tape.

You need to find a way to make yourself stand out from the other applicants. I think starting a new organization on campus is one good way. Also try to get involved in projects during your rotations...that way you get experience and something to put on your CV. Rock your rotations and get good letters of rec.

There are a lot of things that program directors look at while evaluating residents and each program is different.

 

[Sparda29]

You need to find a way to make yourself stand out from the other applicants. I think starting a new organization on campus is one good way. Also try to get involved in projects during your rotations...that way you get experience and something to put on your CV. Rock your rotations and get good letters of rec.

There are a lot of things that program directors look at while evaluating residents and each program is different.

I'm trying to start up an Operation Diabetes program (thru APhA) at my school and link it to direct patient care via rotation sites as well as linking it with my Capstone project which is probably gonna be about Assessment of Pharmacist Interventions and Outcomes in DM patients. The difference between what I wanna do and what the official APhA plan is that, I think the APhA plan only goes as far as screenings/health fairs/awareness.