research year off...

[triquetras]

Any personal preference as to when it is better to take a year off to do research? I am thinking after second year, but a lot of fourth years suggested after third year. I don't think programs care, so I am more concerned about experiences, ie there is a natural break in between second and third year or you liked doing it after third because you could relate your work clinically.....

thanks

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[lf777]

Hi

I would think that taking time off for research would be best after 2nd year, so you could be back to a different stage in medical school, and 2 years would be enough to have published publications by the time you apply for residency.

Leo

 

[PFunkAllStar]

It really depends upon whether or not you have an idea what you are interested in. 3rd year can really help to give you direction as to where you want your career to go. It isn't bad to do research on the synaptic connections within the midbrain but go into ortho, but just think of the connections/peer appraisal/jump start you would have if you did research on an HIV vaccine knowing that you wanted to go into ID? IMHO

 

[hermanodequeso]

i took a year off after second year for research.

while it was nice to have all of my clinical time together, i often wished that i had some clinical knowledge base to apply to the research. plus, you never know what might float your boat clinically and thus more appropriately direct your research efforts. as an example, my research year was focused on cardiology and infectious disease, but i ended up in anesthesiology. during third year, my (now) wife decided to pursue radiation oncology and therefore spent a year in an NCI fellowship between 3rd and 4th year.

there are pros and cons to each time, but i think it's probably a little better to do the research after 3rd year. you can always tell programs that your work is in submission before it's actually published. more often than not, they are just pumped that you're genuinely interested in research and willing to spend a year doing it. publications are icing.

best of luck.

hermano de queso

 

[triquetras]

thanks. I am interested in ophthalmology and neuroscience, so I am looking for a neuroscience project dealing with the visual cortex, or the retina...something where I can combine both fields.

good luck to everyone.

 

[Fro]

thanks. I am interested in ophthalmology and neuroscience, so I am looking for a neuroscience project dealing with the visual cortex, or the retina...something where I can combine both fields.

let's be realistic
you need a paper or poster presentation out of this, so be pragmatic. Find a well published optho/neuro at your school, an alumnus, or affiliate and hook it up. don't go searching for some wild new project, get on something with IRB approval or funding already. avoid multicenter trials like the plague, your chance of getting your name on the paper is nil.
also, basic science research ain't gonna get you far in terms of prestige for residency. not to mention it's boring as hell

 

[Seaglass]

Fro has the right idea with this. I think research is going to add next to nothing to your app except a checkmark next to the research box. If you are going to do it get something fast, approved, and small that you can finish up in the summer between 1 and 2 or at worst during off time in 3. Do not take time off, it's not worth it.

 

[triquetras]

Actually I am already doing a poster presentation for summer research in neuroscience and have submitted an abstract to 2 competitions. I am interested in incorporating research into my career, not just for the application. I will probably get a publication out of the project I did this summer so taking a year to do research is more for me than the application. Oh and I will definitely look for an established project.... I don't have enough time to start from scratch.

 

[HiddenTruth]

let's be realistic

also, basic science research ain't gonna get you far in terms of prestige for residency. not to mention it's boring as hell

Fro has the right idea with this. I think research is going to add next to nothing to your app except a checkmark next to the research box. If you are going to do it get something fast, approved, and small that you can finish up in the summer between 1 and 2 or at worst during off time in 3. Do not take time off, it's not worth it.

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with both of you. While clinical research is effective and a fast way of getting your name on something, BS research is weighed much heavily as far as prestige in many fields. BS reearch takes time, motivation, and commitment--something PD's look for. Sure, it will fulfill the research "checkbox" on your app, but if you did something worthwhile, and you are thinking of going into a research oriented school or highly ranked school (which are research oriented) then they look at research as more than just a checkbox. I am not dimishing the worth/value of clinical research, I am just alluding to the importance and value of basic science research. In fact, some specialties definately weigh BS research greater than CS (e.g ENT, Ophtho).

Also, not everyone does reearch (yea those one month electives maybe) for the sake of a "checkmark". Many people as the OP are truly interested in research. I think you have to have a true desire, quite more than for a check mark, to take a year off. Depending upon what field you are interested in, research can mean a spectrum of things.

Furthermore, any significant research takes more than a summer month or two. You may be able to get some clinical research if you are lucky in a summer's time period; however, as i stated, you will need something more than that for highly sought out fields. Usually, primary authorship in a respected journal doesn't come from a summer's research (obviosuly there are exceptions; there is probably also a kid put there who got a 25 on the mcat and got in harvard, but he probably could also FLY or something). I'm talking about the rule, rather than the exception. Do some "research" on the topic. Good luck to the OP!

 

[hermanodequeso]

agree with hidden truth...

if you really are interested in an academic career, the program directors in academic departments know the difference between a 1-2 month "research" elective with a 5th author paper or poster presentation and a year of committed research, regardless of the outcome. academic departments look for academic candidates. as such, a genuine interest in research means far more than a checkmark in a box.

as an aside for the OP, if you find yourself still interested in neuroscience and ophthalmology, you should consider setting up a clinical elective with Dr. Neil Miller at the Wilmer eye institute at hopkins. he is the absolute bad-ass of neuro-ophtho and one of the best teachers ever. a good letter from him would go a long way in the ophtho or the neurosurg match. if this seems appealing, i'd sign up sooner rather than later as his months book up pretty quick.

just an idea....again, best of luck.

 

[triquetras]

thanks hermanodequeso....I will definitely keep that in mind when i am planning my away electives. You wouldn't happen to know of a good neuro-ophthalmologist at UCSF, with which I could do research with, would you? Actually any ophthalmologist at UCSF that would be a good mentor/teacher...

 

[HiddenTruth]

thanks hermanodequeso....I will definitely keep that in mind when i am planning my away electives. You wouldn't happen to know of a good neuro-ophthalmologist at UCSF, with which I could do research with, would you? Actually any ophthalmologist at UCSF that would be a good mentor/teacher...

sorry don't know about specific mentors, but I do know that UCSF is a school under the dorris duke research program--if you don't know about it, something to consider it. Basicaly, it's a formal and nationally recognized program for med students--there are a select top research academic institutues which participates in the program, and it allows you to do your choice of research under a formal program with it's own guidelines--pretty prestigious--i would read into it. Dorris Duke Research Fellowship ( I believe). Good luck!

 

[zoolander]

The key is to find a good mentor for your career goals.

After having good ones and bad ones, here's a few flags that weren't obvious at first:

Good signs:

-**Previous med students have rotated though, and then matched in ophtho at your programs or other good ones. MOST IMPORTANT-bottom line, how were the results for previous students?

-TALK to these pp asap- did they get a good letter? Did they feel supported? Did they have project (s) that were a good fit for skill and the timeline involved? Did they feel like their work helped them get interviews/ go to national meetings/ match?

-Having a PI who "gets it" re: your goals, the applying timeline/schedule/ networking and recognizes that you have priorities beyond the project at hand.

-For clinical research, a background/dediated staff c the IRB and all the local committees that projects have to negotiate. You could even start on quick filing-type things a month or two before.

-Your PI lets you spend time in their private clinic- interesting, and helps develop a personal relationship w/them

-Someone who's established and has been faculty at one or more places, with a 'recognized' name. Especially true in small fields.

Bad signs:

-You're the only med student, and the lab is full of undergrads, grad students, or post-docs doing long-term work. This lab is not ready for your schedule and doesn't understand the level of work you want to do (too simple or too long term).

-You're working under a fellow, who has the same timeline and agenda as you (year-long project, publications) and higher priority. This person will be the first author on any projects that come out.

-You have more background in a particular field than the rest of the lab. This can go two ways- your skills will be very valued- but you're less likely to learn anything.

-There are already 3-4 med students working on projects in the lab, where they'll all be applying at the same time and the PI will have to pick a 'favorite' to recommend most highly (esp. to the home program, which will ask).

Finally, if you have a feeling that things are going nowhere or your work just got scooped, branch out to another 'side project' asap- a review article, chart review, case report, meta-analysis, etc- to make sure you have something to show for your work.

 

[Fro]

The residency PD's I know are in clinical departments and nearly all favor clinical research over basic science research. THis is because their own research, if they do any, is also clinical. They are familiar with it whereas basic science is either foreign or useless to them.
Based on my experiences choosing basic science research over clinical would be a bad choice for residency purposes.
Plus it bores me out of my friggin skull
but hey you're getting multiple opinions here which is good

 

[PFunkAllStar]

Almost all fellows I know who are in academic programs have the majority of their papers in basic science research...with clinical research being nice side projects as icing on the cake. This also has taught them skills like grant writing, project development, etc. Any top academic program/clinician knows that BS trumps clinical any day of the week. Take a look at the majority of your academic clinician's CV in their earlier years and you will see a laundry list of their BS research.

 

[HiddenTruth]

Almost all fellows I know who are in academic programs have the majority of their papers in basic science research...with clinical research being nice side projects as icing on the cake. This also has taught them skills like grant writing, project development, etc. Any top academic program/clinician knows that BS trumps clinical any day of the week. Take a look at the majority of your academic clinician's CV in their earlier years and you will see a laundry list of their BS research.

Tru dat!

 

[The_Id]

I would not underestimate the potential application power a year or more of dedicated research can do for you, especially if you are not a very strong candidate otherwise. A lot of my classmates who wanted to do competetive residencies (neurosurg, ophtho, plastics, derm, etc) took a year off for research, usually between 3rd and 4th year, and uniformly did awesome in the match, even those who were mediocre students. I also would not underestimate the impact of basic science research on program directors, particularly in those research-intensive fields (which are usually the most competetive fields as listed above).

 

[whispers]

Both Basic Science and Clinical research are important. Both are needed for the advancement of medicine. Picking one over the other because you think it might impress someone might not be the best approach. If you are taking a year off ONLY to impress a PD and you do not enjoy the work it may be a longgggggggggggggg year. Find something you like, something you get excited about. I knew my research project was for me when I found myself sitting it the tub reading articles alongside my favorite book. Do keep in mind some of the things previous posters have said like choosing the right enviornment/ mentor, picking a project that you can complete within a year, etc
good luck

 

[Jaded Soul]

I would not underestimate the potential application power a year or more of dedicated research can do for you, especially if you are not a very strong candidate otherwise. A lot of my classmates who wanted to do competetive residencies (neurosurg, ophtho, plastics, derm, etc) took a year off for research, usually between 3rd and 4th year, and uniformly did awesome in the match, even those who were mediocre students. I also would not underestimate the impact of basic science research on program directors, particularly in those research-intensive fields (which are usually the most competetive fields as listed above).

This is what annoys me about taking a year off to do research. Mediocre students should not be able to make up for their academic deficiencies just because they can afford to take a year out of their lives to work in a lab.

 

[HiddenTruth]

\A lot of my classmates who wanted to do competetive residencies (neurosurg, ophtho, plastics, derm, etc) took a year off for research, usually between 3rd and 4th year, and uniformly did awesome in the match, even those who were mediocre students.

did these people do research in their respected field? Do you know if it was basic sci or clinical? Did they potentially match where they did research? Thanks for your input.

 

[The_Id]

did these people do research in their respected field? Do you know if it was basic sci or clinical? Did they potentially match where they did research? Thanks for your input.

1. Most, but not all, did research in their respective field.
2. the majority did basic science research
3. although all of my classmates who took a year off did their research year at Columbia, most of them matched to non-Columbia programs which were usually relatively superior programs in their respective fields.

lastly, the majority of these people took the research year between 3rd and 4th years.

 

[Molly Maquire]

HI,

I have a few questions about these research years. I would guess that if you are not taking classes, you don't need to pay tuition.

In general, are these years paid? about how much is the salary? Is it necessary to take out another loan to cover living expenses?

Thanks.

 

[whispers]

HI,

I have a few questions about these research years. I would guess that if you are not taking classes, you don't need to pay tuition. undefined
It depends on your home institutions policy. Most schools do not charge tuition

In general, are these years paid? about how much is the salary? Is it necessary to take out another loan to cover living expenses?

Thanks.

undefined
In general they are paid through programs like HHMI, Doris Duke, Sarnoff, CRTP stipend is about 23,000 a year plus health insurance and other fringe benefits

 

[HiddenTruth]

undefined
In general they are paid through programs like HHMI, Doris Duke, Sarnoff, CRTP stipend is about 23,000 a year plus health insurance and other fringe benefits

are any of these more prestigious than others? I know that there is different criteria for each in terms of where you are going to be. (HHMI- at NIH, vs Dorris Duke or CRTP are at respective institutes). I guess it doesn't matter, as long as you put out some credible and worthy research.

 

[hermanodequeso]

i have to put in a plug for the sarnoff fellowship.

a year of funded research anywhere in the country. the fellowship is primarily cardiology-focused, but you really can work on just about anything so long as you can relate it to "cardiovascular science." you meet with your assigned advisor to discuss your scientific and geographic interests, then the endowment gives you $2000 to travel around to look at different labs. after your trip/trips, you pick a mentor and a lab and let 'er rip.

one of the best parts about the sarnoff is that you develop an amazing network of academicians who are totally fired up about helping you along the way. mentorship is held in the highest regard and everyone takes it very seriously.

more so than HHMI or Doris Duke, the sarnoff lasts beyond the fellowship year. every year, all of the fellows are flown to the annual meeting in D.C. to see the new fellows' presentations and participate in roundtable discussions regarding career transitions, grant writing, women's issues in academics, etc. plus, great food......mmmmmmm.

i could go on and on. if anyone has specific questions about it, please let me know.....applications are usually due in mid-january for the following year.

website for the computer jockeys: www.sarnoffendowment.org