Research Track - More or Less competitive?

[Equal]

Hi, I'm an MD/PhD student who is interested in the research track. However, I may restrain from applying to such a track if it's much more competitive compared to the traditional track. For anyone who has such experience to answer this question: in terms of a single institution with both programs, is the traditional or research track more competitive? And by how much? Thank you!

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[Equal]

Hello? Anybody home?

 

[notstudying]

Hello? Anybody home?

Are you talking about the ABP's special alternative pathway? This allows you to combine residency and fellowship into 5 years (cutting off one). You can decide to do the SAP after starting residency, and at least where I am there's no difference in the competitiveness (we have the option but don't have people taking advantage of it very often). I'm not familiar with any programs that have a research track that has a separate application process-is there a program you have in mind? We have a research track, but you don't decide whether to do it until middle of internship year (if then!).

 

[Equal]

Yes, I read from this website that there are specific research tracks that you apply to through ERAS. For example,
http://www.mattel.ucla.edu/res/researchtk2.html
http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/pediatrics/education/investigators.shtml
http://dukehealth1.org/childrens_services/mentored_research.asp

I was hoping GeneGoddess could lend a hand on this question, but if anybody else has an idea, please let me know. Thank you.

Are you talking about the ABP's special alternative pathway? This allows you to combine residency and fellowship into 5 years (cutting off one). You can decide to do the SAP after starting residency, and at least where I am there's no difference in the competitiveness (we have the option but don't have people taking advantage of it very often). I'm not familiar with any programs that have a research track that has a separate application process-is there a program you have in mind? We have a research track, but you don't decide whether to do it until middle of internship year (if then!).

 

[Equal]

Sorry, to answer your question, no I didn't mean the 5-year accelerated subspecialty program. I meant the 3 year gen peds programs that has a separate research track that one applies to through ERAS.

 

[Bernardo_11]

Honeslty, never heard of them. And this is probably because programs with such tracks are kinda rare. So they may be competitive to get into. I think though you can very well apply to both types of programs and rank them accordingly, and still express an interest mainly in research. Most of the general peds programs are totipotent in preparing us for the types of careers we choose.

But the two types of tracks are still similar enough that you will not have to explain yourself too much in the interviews. At least you'e not applying and interviewing to two different specialties... then you'd have to do some real dancing in your interviews.

 

[Equal]

Thank you for your input. The links I provided would be a few programs that you "never heard of." What do you think of them? I know for a fact GeneGoddess matched into this pathway in Duke, and I learned of them through herr previous posts.

Honeslty, never heard of them. And this is probably because programs with such tracks are kinda rare. So they may be competitive to get into. I think though you can very well apply to both types of programs and rank them accordingly, and still express an interest mainly in research. Most of the general peds programs are totipotent in preparing us for the types of careers we choose.

But the two types of tracks are still similar enough that you will not have to explain yourself too much in the interviews. At least you'e not applying and interviewing to two different specialties... then you'd have to do some real dancing in your interviews.

 

[Bernardo_11]

Thank you for your input. The links I provided would be a few programs that you "never heard of." What do you think of them? I know for a fact GeneGoddess matched into this pathway in Duke, and I learned of them through herr previous posts.

The Duke link seemed more like a masters program or a fellowship. I'm not sure if that is a residency program per se. It didn't say anything about teaching the core pediatric curriculum, nor did it say anything about being an MD/PhD type to get into it. So this could be a different non-residency program altogether.

The UCLA seemed rather interesting. 10 months will be spent doing mainly research. I would have like o have seen the curriculum and how it's broken down. Does it basically add another year to your training? Or do they basically use the 10 months as elective rotations, meaning you don't get to do any useful electives like Peds cardio or peds GI? That seems like a nice program though if you plan to do mainly research in the future, yet provides enough "core" material for you if you just happen to choose to go into private practice somewhere down the line. It would seem pretty competitive though as such programs are rare, but that should in no way stop you from applying to it.

Like I said before any program in pediatrics can prepare you to do mainly research work. So you can rank a lot of these "regular" programs as back up.

Hope this helps

Nardo,
DeeBee Peds Fellow

 

[notstudying]

The Duke link seemed more like a masters program or a fellowship. I'm not sure if that is a residency program per se. It didn't say anything about teaching the core pediatric curriculum, nor did it say anything about being an MD/PhD type to get into it. So this could be a different non-residency program altogether.

The UCLA seemed rather interesting. 10 months will be spent doing mainly research. I would have like o have seen the curriculum and how it's broken down. Does it basically add another year to your training? Or do they basically use the 10 months as elective rotations, meaning you don't get to do any useful electives like Peds cardio or peds GI? That seems like a nice program though if you plan to do mainly research in the future, yet provides enough "core" material for you if you just happen to choose to go into private practice somewhere down the line. It would seem pretty competitive though as such programs are rare, but that should in no way stop you from applying to it.

Like I said before any program in pediatrics can prepare you to do mainly research work. So you can rank a lot of these "regular" programs as back up.

Hope this helps

Nardo,
DeeBee Peds Fellow

I agree with Nardo that the Duke program website looks like it's talking about fellowship. The UCLA program sounds a lot like the Integrated Research Pathway (IRP), and they also specify that you would use the same ERAS number for both the research track and categorical peds programs. I suspect that's what genegoddess did at Duke, since I remember that she was applying for combined peds/genetics programs.

Here's info from the ABP website on their 3 research based programs (they all sound similar). They are available at many programs that have an academic focus and fellowships available, so if there's a program you are interested in that doesn't have a specific program outlined on it's website, I'd ask about whether they do offer the track. And knowing how desperately pediatrics needs scientists, I think your background and interest will make you very competitive. The only scenario where I can see this making it harder for you to match would be if there were several people interested and the PD was concerned that there would be too many residents leaving for felowship after PL-2 year, leaving scheduling problems for the seniors. You haven't mentioned when you'll be applying, but you should start to contact the research pathway directors at these institutions to find out more about the programs, and decide whether that what you want to do.

from http://www.abp.org/
*snip* Accelerated Research Pathway
The Accelerated Research Pathway (ARP) is designed to accommodate and encourage candidates who are committed to an academic career as physician scientists with strong research emphasis in a pediatric subspecialty. Candidates entering the ARP may begin subspecialty training after completion of 2 years of general comprehensive pediatric training. The curriculum for the PL-1 and PL-2 years of general pediatrics training should include a broad exposure to the specialty and must include 22 months of clinical experiences, 20 months of which are specified. Click here for the specific requirements. Although it may be advantageous for both general pediatrics and subspecialty training to occur in the same institution, this is not a requirement of the pathway.

Subspecialty training must be at least 4 years in duration and in a discipline for which the ABP offers a Certificate of Special Qualifications (CSQ). The duration of clinical training will be dependent on the pediatric subspecialty. It is understood that a minimum of 1 year of clinical training is required. Trainees will be required to meet the same standards for scholarly achievement as defined for those in the standard 3-year subspecialty fellowship training programs.

Candidates for this pathway should be identified early, preferably prior to the start of the PL-1 year but no later than 9 months into the PL-1 year. This is necessary so that the second year of training can be adapted in such a way that specified curricular requirements in general pediatrics will be met. The program director and candidate will not be required to seek prospective approval by the ABP, but must notify the ABP by means of the tracking roster in May of the PL-1 year.

To meet the eligibility requirements for certification in general pediatrics, the trainee must satisfactorily complete 2 years of core general pediatrics training (22 clinical months) and an additional year (11 months of clinical experience) in the subspecialty fellowship. Verification of clinical competence and training will be required from both the general pediatrics program director and the subspecialty training program director.

Eligibility to take the subspecialty certifying examination will require completion of 6 years of total training (2 years of general pediatrics and 4 years of subspecialty training). The subspecialty program director will be required to verify training dates, as well as clinical and research competence.

Integrated Research Pathway
The Integrated Research Pathway (IRP) was designed to accommodate MD/PhD graduates who would benefit by having the ability to continue ongoing research during their pediatric residency. Click here for the specific requirements. During the 3 years of general pediatric residency, a maximum of 11 months may be spent in research, with at least 5 months in the PL-3 year and no more than 1 month in the PL-1 year. Individuals must apply for this pathway either before entering an accredited pediatric residency program or during the first 9 months of the PL-1 year. The curricular components of the minimum of 22 months of core clinical pediatric residency must be fulfilled.

A supervisory/review committee must be established by the residency program and the research mentors to ensure that each trainee is meeting the requirements of training and is successfully completing each experience before continuing in the pathway. The general pediatrics program director must provide careful evaluation of clinical training to determine whether the resident is attaining the knowledge and experience necessary to provide independent care of children. A research mentor must oversee the research experiences to ensure that the trainee is accomplishing pathway goals.

To meet the eligibility requirements for certification in general pediatrics, the resident must satisfactorily complete 36 months in the IRP. The pediatric program director must verify that the resident has completed the prescribed training, verify clinical competence and recommend the individual for the examination. An additional 12 months of pediatric clinical experience must be successfully completed to be eligible to apply for the certifying examination in general pediatrics. This experience must be in an accredited specialty residency or subspecialty fellowship approved by the ABP. The program director of the additional clinical experience will be asked to verify clinical competence and training. The certifying examination may not be taken until the 3-year IRP and the additional 1 year of clinical training have been completed.

Special Alternative Pathway (SAP)
The ABP recognizes that occasionally an exceptional candidate should be given special consideration to begin pediatric subspecialty or related training after the completion of the PL-2 year of general comprehensive pediatrics. The duration of the pediatric subspecialty training or related training for the SAP must be 3 years. Click here for Guidelines.

Before the start of the PL-2 year, the department chair or program director must petition that a resident be considered for the SAP, indicating that the candidate has superior overall competence. The subspecialty program director must also provide a letter outlining the clinical and research training proposed, including special requirements to be met during the PL-2 and PL-3 years. In addition, such candidates will be required to take a screening examination. The application material and the score on the screening examination will be reviewed by the Credentials Committee.

An SAP trainee may take the certifying examination in general pediatrics in the fifth year of training provided that he or she has successfully completed the required 2 years of general pediatrics residency and at least 12 months of clinical rotations in the pediatric subspecialty. *snip*

 

[Equal]

Thank you Bernardo and Notstudying.
Where can I find a list of which institutions offer the IRP track? That's the one I was interested in. In general, is the IRP track more competitive than the regular track?

 

[notstudying]

Thank you Bernardo and Notstudying.
Where can I find a list of which institutions offer the IRP track? That's the one I was interested in. In general, is the IRP track more competitive than the regular track?

I think I addressed these questions in my previous post, but here goes:
1. To my knowledge none of the research tracks are separate programs, and you can apply for them after matching if you wish, and so you will be more competitive if few people are applying with the intent to do a research track at that program in that year (since it looks good for programs to have residents publishing), and have more trouble matching if there are many people applying (since you won't be available for all 3 years; this is very unlikely since there are so few MD/PhDs going into peds). If you are worried about it, don't apply for the IRP until after you start.

2. I don't know of any official list (you can try to google this or check on the ABP webiste), but most programs with fellowships and an academic focus will offer the research tracks. Contact the PDs for the programs you are interested in, or talk to the PD at your institution.

 

[Equal]

All your posts on this thread have been very helpful. Thank you.

I think I addressed these questions in my previous post, but here goes:
1. To my knowledge none of the research tracks are separate programs, and you can apply for them after matching if you wish, and so you will be more competitive if few people are applying with the intent to do a research track at that program in that year (since it looks good for programs to have residents publishing), and have more trouble matching if there are many people applying (since you won't be available for all 3 years; this is very unlikely since there are so few MD/PhDs going into peds). If you are worried about it, don't apply for the IRP until after you start.

2. I don't know of any official list (you can try to google this or check on the ABP webiste), but most programs with fellowships and an academic focus will offer the research tracks. Contact the PDs for the programs you are interested in, or talk to the PD at your institution.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Hi!

Pediatric Research Residencies
http://mstp.uci.edu/currentstudents/residencyandresearch1.php

Schools supporting multidepartment research residencies:
Iowa - http://www.medicine.uiowa.edu/pstp/default.asp
UT Southwestern - http://www8.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/home/educ/pstp/index.html
UCLA - http://www.star.med.ucla.edu/
UCSF - http://medicine.ucsf.edu/molmed/

We have a MSTP student here who's applying for peds right now - here's what he had to say (snippets only):

"Although Peds is the second most popular choice for MD/PhD students, the field is still hungry for more. Three of the programs I'll visit have specific interview dates set aside for us, and two of those add an extra day to meet with research faculty. Programs also realize the importance of resident research, and the fast/research track options are possible pathways. "

"I've had a little feedback regarding the fast track and research track residency options. Three Peds program directors, a chairman, and a couple of faculty all voiced a very similar opinion. That is, the fast/research track options are best for graduates who have a very well formed idea about what they want to do or those who have the desire and ability to continue on with their specific research. Otherwise, it is seen to be important to get strong clinical training."

BTW, if you're at UCSF, you happen to have last year's MSTP match? Please PM me if you do!

 

[Equal]

Thank you.
Sorry, I am not from UCSF. I bet Vader would have that information though.

Hi!

Pediatric Research Residencies
http://mstp.uci.edu/currentstudents/residencyandresearch1.php

Schools supporting multidepartment research residencies:
Iowa - http://www.medicine.uiowa.edu/pstp/default.asp
UT Southwestern - http://www8.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/home/educ/pstp/index.html
UCLA - http://www.star.med.ucla.edu/
UCSF - http://medicine.ucsf.edu/molmed/

We have a MSTP student here who's applying for peds right now - here's what he had to say (snippets only):

"Although Peds is the second most popular choice for MD/PhD students, the field is still hungry for more. Three of the programs I'll visit have specific interview dates set aside for us, and two of those add an extra day to meet with research faculty. Programs also realize the importance of resident research, and the fast/research track options are possible pathways. "

"I've had a little feedback regarding the fast track and research track residency options. Three Peds program directors, a chairman, and a couple of faculty all voiced a very similar opinion. That is, the fast/research track options are best for graduates who have a very well formed idea about what they want to do or those who have the desire and ability to continue on with their specific research. Otherwise, it is seen to be important to get strong clinical training."

BTW, if you're at UCSF, you happen to have last year's MSTP match? Please PM me if you do!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Not a chance! (in reference to Vader)

 

[Equal]

I do not seem to understand how your response is relevant to what I said.

I checked out on sdn matchlists of MSTPs from various institutions (your screenname is all over those threads by the way), and none seem to indicate that peds would be the #2 most popular residency as you previously stated . I see many going into path, ophtho, and rad. Am I missing something here?

Not a chance!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I do not seem to understand how your response is relevant to what I said.

I checked out on sdn matchlists of MSTPs from various institutions (your screenname is all over those threads by the way), and none seem to indicate that peds would be the #2 most popular residency as you previously stated . I see many going into path, ophtho, and rad. Am I missing something here?

The data doesn't lie:

http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~paik/match.html

 

[Equal]

Why is Vader is competitive that he won't even share his matchlist? What a weird guy.

The data doesn't lie:

http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~paik/match.html

 

[Equal]

That's an amazing website you made there.
Looks like peds is 3rd to me, which is still a surprise. Also a surprise is psych.

The data doesn't lie:

http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~paik/match.html

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Err, I've added more data since that guy wrote that stuff I posted earlier. Actually, its a tie right now between Path and Peds according to the latest.

I'm probably going to gather this year's data and submit to Academic Medicine or JCI or something like that.

I didn't ask Vader directly for a match list, I just posted asking for anybody who knows to add. Since he didn't post, that's fine.

Good luck.