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Removed for concern of privacy. Thank you all for the advice, it has been very helpful.
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Are you doing this stuff while actually working a shift in the ED?I do share with my co-residents that I go to therapy and make them aware of our “concierge psychiatrist” our GME provides for us to try to further normalize true “mental health,” how the last year of crazy covid trauma is actually trauma they should work through, and ideally continue to help break the stigma of basic medical care.
Exactly. There's the game, and then there's the metagame. OP is focusing on the game, but those of us who have struggled with these things see that the game is the easy part, and the rules of the game aren't even the same as how they're written.There are glimmers in your post of the types of feedback you've been given and it sounds like it revolves around some pretty fundamental requirements for being an emergency physician. Task-switching issues, poor communication, not seeing enough patients are all things that can get you fired or worse as an attending. Additionally, while the shift you mention felt abusive to you, it's clear that is not how your program views the events of that shift. That disconnect puts you in a dangerous place and it seems that your attempts to change the narrative (giving names of witnesses you felt would support your version of events) wasn't successful.
YES. Properly interpreting feedback from different individuals is one of those metagame skills that I feel like most picked up in undergrad or earlier. OP shows no awareness of this. It is a difficult skill for at least some of us!Supervisors tend to stop trying to modify other's behavior after multiple unsuccessful attempts. So maybe the "nice" attendings gave you specific feedback that didn't seem like a big deal at the time. And after a couple of times of that happening, they make a decision (consciously or not) about whether the point they're trying to get across is worth escalating the amplitude of their feedback. If they decide it's not, they give bland feedback and get categorized into the "most people say I'm doing fine" category. If they decide to escalate, they're usually moved out of the nice category.
There is also sometimes but rarely a Group 3, who are messaging in a way you can hear. For me, this was pretty much one single attending who I suspect had a similar background of poor socialization as myself. Thinking back, he was very proactive and may have singlehandedly saved my ass in residency. I hope OP has someone like him in their program.The last category of potentially untrustworthy feedback is feedback that feels mean or like an attack. This is tricky because you've likely lumped two groups together that have very different goals into this singular category. Group 1 is going to be people that are giving you negative feedback because they don't like you and want to hurt you/demonstrate their power over you. This group exists, and life sucks when one of these people is your direct supervisor. Group 2 is going to be people that want you to improve but aren't messaging that desire in a way you can hear. It's really important to identify who's in group 2 because they're the ones telling you their actual perception of your performance and listening to them is your best route to improving.
My guess is that what would happen depends on the state of OP's personal relationships with the people in question. Often, due in part to the dysfunctional bureaucratic aspect of this system, a hard part for someone in OP's shoes is even identifying which individuals are giving them bad evaluations.What would happen if OP said this to the people giving him bad evaluations? "Hey I'm confused about what these issues with my performance mean and was wondering if you could explain it to me in a way I can understand? I really want to stay in this program and want to be the best doctor I can be and want to make the changes necessary to do so."
How is one suppose to fix problems with their attendings if they can't even find the ones that have issues with them? I would also hope that most attendings would be mature enough to set aside their personal problems with people in order to give sufficient feedback about issues.My guess is that what would happen depends on the state of OP's personal relationships with the people in question. Often, due in part to the dysfunctional bureaucratic aspect of this system, a hard part for someone in OP's shoes is even identifying which individuals are giving them bad evaluations.
One can adopt the attitude that I tried to sketch in my original reply:How is one suppose to fix problems with their attendings if they can't even find the ones that have issues with them? I would also hope that most attendings would be mature enough to set aside their personal problems with people in order to give sufficient feedback about issues.
One last thought: In EM residency, often how RNs perceive you is at least as important as how the other doctors perceive you. And it matters for your progress. Many more abstract newbie residents miss this. Some of the worst EM attendings I've worked with still miss this.
Yes. And I would argue that "professionalism," as narrowly-defined by doctors, is not even enough to protect oneself from the silliest RNs. One needs to be... likeable by them. IOW, one needs to play the metagame.To add on to this statement (which doesn't sound like is the OPs problem), RNs are significantly more united than physicians. Barring being a significant outlier in terms of metrics, an institution's opinion of an EM doc is roughly equivalent to the lowest opinion of that doc among the full time nursing staff. Nurse that you bang heads with because they don't do their job (ever)? All that free time means that they've got plenty of time to talk to the nurse manager or director about every incident of perceived disrespect/less than ideal communication. Professionalism has to be an outfit you put on from the moment you step onto hospital grounds until you've left.
There is a skill to getting real feedback. It entails benefiting the one who can give you feedback... not usually in big formal ways, but in small informal and usually emotional ways. Most learn it before med school, as children, because they are properly socialized. It is a skill that I think is teachable, by myself and others who have been in this rare place. But it is not teachable in a forum post, nor is it teachable by most who were properly socialized from a young age, because they have no conscious awareness of what is right and what is wrong here.
I can try. I'll need to get a bit concrete though. Remind me: what's your place? Are you an attending, resident, med stud, or other?I know you said you can't teach this in a forum, but are you at all able to elaborate a bit more? I'm intrigued by your phrasing ("benefiting the one who can give you feedback... not usually in big formal ways, but in small informal and usually emotional ways")
Based on OPs original post, I don't think it's a matter of finding which attendings have issues with them. It sounds much more like the things that the OP consider important and the things their attending consider important don't have much overlap. If the post is an accurate representation of the OP's view of events, they've been given a lot of feedback and very little of it penetrated whatever armor they wear to get through the shift.How is one suppose to fix problems with their attendings if they can't even find the ones that have issues with them? I would also hope that most attendings would be mature enough to set aside their personal problems with people in order to give sufficient feedback about issues.
I've said it many times - "some animals have to live in the zoo, because they can't survive in the wild". Medical faculty, paralleling academics in general, have some of THE most juvenile, petty, untrustworthy people, who will argue severely about the most trivial issues, instead of the inverse. Also, most lack the confidence to say anything "bad" to a resident. People hide in academics.I would also hope that most attendings would be mature enough to set aside their personal problems with people in order to give sufficient feedback about issues.
Attending, several years out of residency.I can try. I'll need to get a bit concrete though. Remind me: what's your place? Are you an attending, resident, med stud, or other?
I can try. I'll need to get a bit concrete though. Remind me: what's your place? Are you an attending, resident, med stud, or other?
Wow man, that takes cajones. Was your comment well received?EDIT: I had a few "tough talks" with my PD and Chair as an intern, where I basically said: "Yeah, so Doctor X and Y completely paralyze the department because they cant make a decision to save their lives. I'm 6 months in to residency, and I already see this. Why don't YOU guys see this?!"
I wasn't wrong. I was just the only one to say out loud: "the emporer isn't wearing new clothes, guys."
Big post on this topic when I get back home.Wow man, that takes cajones. Was your comment well received?
Does it take cojones or just an almost willful ignorance of how organizations work?Wow man, that takes cajones. Was your comment well received?
Does it take cojones or just an almost willful ignorance of how organizations work?
No no, like at our retreats and conference when we are doing a dedicated small group time talking on things like "how are you doing during a pandemic." Most of it is one on one after a shift or when we are all just casually hanging outAre you doing this stuff while actually working a shift in the ED?
First of all, I am sorry that you find yourself in this difficult situation. This sucks, and I can only imagine it adds a ton of stress to an already stressful residency experience. I am sincerely wishing that this situation gets fixed and you go on to have a long, happy, fruitful career as an emergency physician.Howdy y’all,
PGY2 here from a 3-year academic shop. I was placed on an improvement plan in November which has now progressed forward to remediation despite working incredibly hard on the few random bits of feedback I was given. (FYI, we use the following progression Formal Plan > Remediation (inhibits progression to next year)> Probation > Expulsion/Failure to renew contract).
I come to you for advice/to hear your experiences with remediating the deemed “difficult competencies” such as communication, and "perception."
Per my program, there is “concern I am not meeting level 2 milestones” in various sections of interpersonal communication, patient care, and professionalism (very random things like task switching,”not seeing enough patients,” and things such as “poor communication” despite a collection of evals stating otherwise).
When looking into this, the only examples for each milestone level I could find were in the ACGME’s specialty-specific supplemental document. When compared to these examples, I am level 3/4 in most of those areas ( scored by faculty mentors with history scoring residents as well). Also, it states the levels do not correspond to pgy year and will likely vary across the six big milestones.
However, I am told I “do not meet the expectations of a senior resident” and “cannot have any further spontaneous feedback regarding these issues for the remainder of my training to remain in good standing” as my only real "feedback"
And after that background for some context, A few questions for the crowd:
- Does anyone’s program have specific examples for each of the ACGME competencies/milestones their residency provides as expectations they would be willing to share? I only have access to the supplemental examples from ACGME. Also, do you have noted “expectations” for each PGY year? such as a hard patient/hour number?
- Is it normal to be on an “improvement plan” that just states you are not meeting expectations, w/o referencing the exact deficient behavior or expectation minimum to meet that milestone. The “action plans” for each competency then is that “the leadership should just not hear anything about you from faculty again about this issue.
I find this especially odd when comparing my journey to my peers, others have been assigned 1 on 1 mentors that met monthly for the 6 month “improvement period.” Ironically, none of them were placed on remediation plans for failing to meet their clearly defined expectations..
More context for this last part:
I have had multiple really close friends who almost failed out of medical school due to their fear of seeking care for their untreated OCD and panic disorder. I do share with my co-residents that I go to therapy and make them aware of our “concierge psychiatrist” our GME provides for us to try to further normalize true “mental health,” how the last year of crazy covid trauma is actually trauma they should work through, and ideally continue to help break the stigma of basic medical care. I also started a mental health group in medical school as it has always been important to me.
I have had an ADHD diagnosis since age 8. I have been treated since undergrad and have had no issues with any job or in medical school with this being a “barrier.” I have never been suicidal or severely depressed. Despite this, I was randomly asked to be “medically cleared” by a psychiatrist following a terrible abusive shift with an attending (which was never investigated, despite me giving names of others in the room for collateral.) I was not allowed to return to work until this was completed, which could not be from an in-house doctor. During the two weeks, it took of waiting for my “stat appt,” I additionally saw a different therapist, confidential advisor, different psych MD, a specialized therapist for physicians, and a neuropsychologist. A total of 5 mental health providers wrote a “clearance” note stating I had no active issues, interpersonal communication barriers, did not require neurocognitive testing, and didn’t even have depression/anxiety, so they encouraged them to focus on the academics as a kind way of telling them to “stay in your lane”. Despite this, I continue to get unsolicited narrations of the “mental health journey” I am on from leadership during shifts. After spending around a week of heavy evidence-based research and re-writing my plan to include some actual measurable skills (I was told to edit it however I wanted, “because they didn’t know how to help me”..) I am still being told “we are here just to make sure you are ok and get you past your mental health barriers that are preventing you from being equal to your peers. I have also asked in my plan to drop this and talked to my PD about it independently.
3. At what point and after how many requests to stop bringing this up would you look into some sort of ADA legality approach. Just looking to my colleague's clearly outlined plans and assigned mentorship relationships, I feel a smidge neglected and am beginning to worry about discrimination.