Red Pill Spaces

[BuckeyeLove]

Any of you worked with anyone (most likely males) who have brought up taking the red pill? I've had 4-5 male zoomer patients who subscribe to it as if it was a religious doctrine, namely the hypergamy stuff [the historical tendency for women to date across and up], evolutionary psych - David Bus (which....I think there is at least in some small part some legitimacy to). However, it also feels like it's getting into incel territory at times, real doomer/hopeless spaces, where some simple cognitive education and restructuring could be helpful. I'm starting to worry about the kids is what I'm saying i guess lol.

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[WisNeuro]

The only zoomers I see in my practice are the ones trying to secure early retirement through taxpayer funded sources or other deep pockets.

 

[Shiori]

Any of you worked with anyone (most likely males) who have brought up taking the red pill? I've had 4-5 male zoomer patients who subscribe to it as if it was a religious doctrine, namely the hypergamy stuff [the historical tendency for women to date across and up], evolutionary psych - David Bus (which....I think there is at least in some small part some legitimacy to). However, it also feels like it's getting into incel territory at times, real doomer/hopeless spaces, where some simple cognitive education and restructuring could be helpful. I'm starting to worry about the kids is what I'm saying i guess lol.

It comes up in some form pretty regularly for me in the VA. I definitely look for places where cognitive flexibility is the most likely to happen. As a woman, I have to be really diligent about avoiding power struggles with them when I try to do cognitive restructuring work. I find the path of least resistance is to just seem really confused by some of their statements and ask them to explain them to me. Then I pepper in the Socratic questioning until they walk themselves into their thought traps. They're generally bright and figure it out without a lot of heavy lifting from me. If I have pushed too hard, they'll generally retreat to intellectualizing. I have become well-versed in philosophy because that's been their favorite security blanket. I have to get them to pivot back to the affective work and gently nudge them through the anger so they can get at the real stuff.

As I'm explaining this, I think I can sum it up as avoid bruising their ego, which can be challenging, then get them to feel their stuff. After all that, I am able to push them a bit harder on the cognitive part. There is usually intense discomfort with rejection so any vague rejection is met with a hammer. I got most of my training for this work as a female gamer. Hope my rambling was helpful!

 

[tr]

Any of you worked with anyone (most likely males) who have brought up taking the red pill? I've had 4-5 male zoomer patients who subscribe to it as if it was a religious doctrine, namely the hypergamy stuff [the historical tendency for women to date across and up], evolutionary psych - David Bus (which....I think there is at least in some small part some legitimacy to). However, it also feels like it's getting into incel territory at times, real doomer/hopeless spaces, where some simple cognitive education and restructuring could be helpful. I'm starting to worry about the kids is what I'm saying i guess lol.

I don't think this is new or generational. There were tons of millennial male incels/redpillers ten and fifteen years ago. I think it's just a nasty outgrowth of pent-up sexual frustration combined with immature, self-centered thought processes.

Totally agree with Shiori's post that it can be addressed with bread and butter cognitive restructuring techniques. I think the ones you're seeing in treatment will end up with good outcomes. The ones to worry about aren't those in therapy, they're the ones hiding in their parents' basements browsing Reddit and accumulating weapon stashes.

 

[Shiori]

I have seen group therapy using beloved games as the meeting space. Maybe they'll reach the scary folks.

 

[PsyDr]

I've seen a few. It's like a lot of financial advice... you look at the claims and the person giving it. If the person is rich, from something other than giving advice, maybe they are onto something. If the person is happy and rich, maybe more so. You don't trust a skinny chef or a bald barber.

I think the danger in the red pill, is that a dude listens to it, and then doesn't engage in self improvement. It seems like it results in a substantial amount of alone time watching videos that provoke negative emotion, taking advice from people who don't appear to have happy relationships with others, and dedicating a substantial amount of social interactions to whining to other dudes about women. That's just pouring your head full of negativity. And for what? You'll notice that schedule does not include a lot of contact with women.

MI techniques. What does this get you? etc. Perspective taking, using female-centric media, about what women want. Since I am perplexed that someone can't pick up a woman in a bar, maybe some social skills building and/or cognitive restructuring about their expectations vs what they bring to the table. There can some uncomfortable conversations about physical appearance.

 

[Sanman]

I have seen group therapy using beloved games as the meeting space. Maybe they'll reach the scary folks.

How is that HIPAA compliant? Or is this not with a licensed professional?

 

[Shiori]

I've seen a few. It's like a lot of financial advice... you look at the claims and the person giving it. If the person is rich, from something other than giving advice, maybe they are onto something. If the person is happy and rich, maybe more so. You don't trust a skinny chef or a bald barber.

I think the danger in the red pill, is that a dude listens to it, and then doesn't engage in self improvement. It seems like it results in a substantial amount of alone time watching videos that provoke negative emotion, taking advice from people who don't appear to have happy relationships with others, and dedicating a substantial amount of social interactions to whining to other dudes about women. That's just pouring your head full of negativity. And for what? You'll notice that schedule does not include a lot of contact with women.

MI techniques. What does this get you? etc. Perspective taking, using female-centric media, about what women want. Since I am perplexed that someone can't pick up a woman in a bar, maybe some social skills building and/or cognitive restructuring about their expectations vs what they bring to the table. There can some uncomfortable conversations about physical appearance.

The current crop of young men in this category are using their rage to fuel self-improvement. There are now alphas, betas, and sigmas. It's a whole thing. They're asking women what they bring to the table now. They're lifting weights, spending thousands of dollars to become part of boys clubs where they smoke cigars and hate women together, and have been reviving the pick-up artist stuff. It's all very cyclical.

How is that HIPAA compliant? Or is this not with a licensed professional?

The ad I saw didn't use licensed professionals. Dr. K. makes me wonder if it even matters at this point. Some folks are just winging it, ethically.

 

[Sanman]

I've seen a few. It's like a lot of financial advice... you look at the claims and the person giving it. If the person is rich, from something other than giving advice, maybe they are onto something. If the person is happy and rich, maybe more so. You don't trust a skinny chef or a bald barber.

I think the danger in the red pill, is that a dude listens to it, and then doesn't engage in self improvement. It seems like it results in a substantial amount of alone time watching videos that provoke negative emotion, taking advice from people who don't appear to have happy relationships with others, and dedicating a substantial amount of social interactions to whining to other dudes about women. That's just pouring your head full of negativity. And for what? You'll notice that schedule does not include a lot of contact with women.

MI techniques. What does this get you? etc. Perspective taking, using female-centric media, about what women want. Since I am perplexed that someone can't pick up a woman in a bar, maybe some social skills building and/or cognitive restructuring about their expectations vs what they bring to the table. There can some uncomfortable conversations about physical appearance.

Now, there can be many different topics about "Red pill" ideology, but I think this brings up a good point that can fit into the CBT and ACT models. No, you can't look like Brad Pitt, but you can go to the gym and lose a few pounds. No, you won't get many dates being broke and living in your mother's basement. What actions can you take to get a good job? Socialization skills?

The main issue is the hopelessness, not the uncomfortable truth.

 

[Sanman]

The ad I saw didn't use licensed professionals. Dr. K. makes me wonder if it even matters at this point. Some folks are just winging it, ethically.

That's dumb. Dr. K is just hoping he gets rich enough that losing his license won't matter as he is hiring "coaches" to do the work for him. The rest of the folks that are not famous will just end up jobless with no license.

 

[Shiori]

Now, there can be many different topics about "Red pill" ideology, but I think this brings up a good point that can fit into the CBT and ACT models. No, you can't look like Brad Pitt, but you can go to the gym and lose a few pounds. No, you won't get many dates being broke and living in your mother's basement. What actions can you take to get a good job? Socialization skills?

The main issue is the hopelessness, not the uncomfortable truth.

The children are mewing (pressing their tongues to the roof of their mouths) in an attempt to change their jawlines.

 

[Sanman]

The children are mewing (pressing their tongues to the roof of their mouths) in an attempt to change their jawlines.

Maybe less mewing and more talking. I ain't all that pretty, but I can usually get a woman to laugh. Hard to talk with your tongue on the roof of your mouth.

 

[Shiori]

Maybe less mewing and more talking. I ain't all that pretty, but I can usually get a woman to laugh. Hard to talk with your tongue on the roof of your mouth.

Some are shushing their teachers.

 

[Sanman]

Some are shushing their teachers.

Is this where I make old man jokes about "back in my day", catholic schools, and getting the paddle?

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Maybe less mewing and more talking. I ain't all that pretty, but I can usually get a woman to laugh. Hard to talk with your tongue on the roof of your mouth.

This. The ability to make someone laugh is absolutely invaluable. But it’s paradoxical to the cynicism of these RP bros most of the time.

 

[Shiori]

This. The ability to make someone laugh is absolutely invaluable. But it’s paradoxical to the cynicism of these RP bros most of the time.

Jack Black is trending on TikTok at the moment because there are men arguing that women couldn't possibly find him attractive for anything other than his fame and money. Women are laying out all the reasons they find him attractive across all domains and men accusing them of lying. It's baffling to watch.

Andrew Tate has ruined the game for a lot of young men. Fortunately, every generation (broadly) seems to figure it out eventually.

 

[PsyDr]

The current crop of young men in this category are using their rage to fuel self-improvement. There are now alphas, betas, and sigmas. It's a whole thing. They're asking women what they bring to the table now. They're lifting weights, spending thousands of dollars to become part of boys clubs where they smoke cigars and hate women together, and have been reviving the pick-up artist stuff. It's all very cyclical.

I disagree that their behavior is self improvement.

1) The entire alpha, beta thing was disproven. Those self declarations are evidence that they didn't bother to read the most fundamental part of their identity. That's sadly announcing incompetence.

2) A fundamental maxim in negotiation: Only ask a question if you know the answer.
a. Asking what a woman what she brings to the table? While it is risky to frame a relationship to a transaction, there may be situations where that is a relevant question. But if you ask that question, you should absolutely know, from her perspective, what you bring to the table. And you should imagine how asking this question will play out.

b. Asking the entire gender what they bring to the table? Who knows? That's a silly question that avoids the issue of setting. An employee doesn't ask that of the boss, the plaintiff doesn't ask that of the judge, etc.

3) Lifting weights: sure why not. If someone confuses physical aggression with "power", it's just evidence that they are not deep thinkers. Oh no, you're able to do more physical labor for someone who pays you! Terrifying.

4) When I was in college, there were the real Greek organizations, and then sometimes some sad person would create their own frat/sorority. People didn't think, "gosh, that's so awesome". They just pitied the person who got rejected and couldn't let go. The successful version of spending money to be in a club and smoke cigars is called a "country club", and they're sometimes a tax write off. Doing an analogue of the real success is just pitiful.

5) Learning to pick up women? Saying you have to learn that, is saying you are incompetent in that area. A porno guy is probably a good source of information if you're trying to talk girls into doing porno. He's probably a bad source of information for normal relationships. And being with a porno actor sounds exhausting.

 

[borne_before]

So, I kind of view it as identity development and a bit of a reaction to boys being told that they're awful for being white and male and being into white and male things. That media landscape is pretty terrible for young men and the leftists in our field wonder why we are losing them.

Behaviorally, it usually leads to horrible things like voting republican, doing things outside, weight lifting, christianity, eating meat, listening to Joe Rogan/JBP, not placing women on a pedestal, and collecting irreverent memes (****posting/pepe collecting/wojackposting).

Most of the time, young males will dabble with it because of the irreverent/heterodox viewpoint, realize it's kind of weak sauce, and then move on.

For real though, look at it through various stages of identity development (pre-encounter, encounter, immersion/emerision, internalization, internalization-commitment). This probably works for all sorts of edgy beliefs systems like wokism, socialisms, commies, punks, skaters, preps, hicks, etc.

1. Pre-encounter: the individual absorbs many values of the dominant media culture, including the notion that being being a white straight male is bad. They have a lot of female friends that are just not good friends or people that they would tolerate except if they were female, but they're okay with it.
2. Encounter/disintegration: something happens when adolescence/teen/emerging adult, gets sick of the guilt placed on them, and finds a meme posted to be heartbreakingly true or funny. They realize how much of a wet blanket the world has gotten. This the where they begin to feel frustrated about the friend zone.
3. Reintegration/immersion/emersion: this probably when they start engaging more in redpill/altright spaces. Probably when they dabble in a lil 4chan /b or /r9k or reddit unbanned spaces like r/joerogan. Perhaps they even wind up on hullabaloo/prepper/wranglerstar tok. They begin to eat more steak, collect vintage axes, chop wood, camp more, deliberately experience cold/hot environments, etc. They try being mean to women, only to realize that it's just as bad as getting constantly friendzoned. Maybe they dabble with christianity and attend a church that reinforces the idea men need to provide for their wives...
4. Internalization: This is when the individual, usually using humorous memes, begins to re-find their individualization and be okay with pursuing their value and interests while realizing that there are a lot of losers in these spaces that just need to make their damn bed, even in the face constant negative media bias. Perhaps through pursuing a hobby they have successfully found a romantic partner. They also realize that women, just like men, are just as lost and struggling. They realize that their are women out their who are into eating meat and getting stronk.
5. Internalization-commitment: Anchored in their positive sense of "it's okay to be a white dude, who is into eating meat" they have found ways to translate their own personal sense of individuality to reject dominant media message and engage in more prosocial interactions with women. When they get friendzoned now, think something "I already have enough friends, good day (without bitterness)" and onto the next one.

Don't take my post seriously.

 

[R. Matey]

If I have pushed too hard, they'll generally retreat to intellectualizing. I have become well-versed in philosophy because that's been their favorite security blanket.

IME, this has typically involve an understanding of the origins of life, the universe, and everything explained by a five minute YouTube video on Camus. Weird, then, that someone would cling to it so desperately.

 

[Shiori]

I disagree that their behavior is self improvement.

1) The entire alpha, beta thing was disproven. Those self declarations are evidence that they didn't bother to read the most fundamental part of their identity. That's sadly announcing incompetence.

2) A fundamental maxim in negotiation: Only ask a question if you know the answer.
a. Asking what a woman what she brings to the table? While it is risky to frame a relationship to a transaction, there may be situations where that is a relevant question. But if you ask that question, you should absolutely know, from her perspective, what you bring to the table. And you should imagine how asking this question will play out.

My post was more about discussing the current version of male angst when they're struggling with loneliness and anger. They are adopting the attitude that "self-improvement" is way more important than relationships with women. They are coached to pursue money and power above all else and that women are only as useful as what they have to offer financially and physically. The labels they give themselves reflect where they align themselves regardless of the irrelevance the labels have to reality. Alphas (in their context) view women a commodity to use and dispose of. Sigmas are much more focused on independence. Lone wolf stuff.

The phrase "what you bring to the table" is currently heavily used by a lot of these young men. It's now at the level of parody.

Based on the very algorithmic nature of internet consumption, I can inadvertently lead a client down a weird path if they start researching these concepts. The alpha male/red pill/etc. internet sprints pretty quickly to White Nationalist pathways. The internet is weird.

 

[borne_before]

My post was more about discussing the current version of male angst when they're struggling with loneliness and anger. They are adopting the attitude that "self-improvement" is way more important than relationships with women. They are coached to pursue money and power above all else and that women are only as useful as what they have to offer financially and physically. The labels they give themselves reflect where they align themselves regardless of the irrelevance the labels have to reality. Alphas (in their context) view women a commodity to use and dispose of. Sigmas are much more focused on independence. Lone wolf stuff.

The phrase "what you bring to the table" is currently heavily used by a lot of these young men. It's now at the level of parody.

Based on the very algorithmic nature of internet consumption, I can inadvertently lead a client down a weird path if they start researching these concepts. The alpha male/red pill/etc. internet sprints pretty quickly to White Nationalist pathways. The internet is weird.

It is though! If done correctly, relationships with women will be a side effect! There is basically no way that self-improvement can't lead to more positive relationships and connection.

But instead of the money/power part, I've had much success in encouraging that self-improvement impulse, putting it into a hobby, and then having them be successful with women through that. I do love that young men are asking what women bring to the table. Any partner should be asking that of anyone they're into. But to be able to ask that, they need to not a be a hypocrite: If they want a trad wife - they need to be a trad husband.

There was a book called "How to succeed with women" that made it around my dorm. I read it. It changed my life. It taught me how to flirt, clarify goals with dating, etc., But also, it encourages you to do self-improvement. If you want to succeed with women, joining a uni club, because if you aren't you still benefit from learning how to make compost.

 

[Sanman]

My post was more about discussing the current version of male angst when they're struggling with loneliness and anger. They are adopting the attitude that "self-improvement" is way more important than relationships with women. They are coached to pursue money and power above all else and that women are only as useful as what they have to offer financially and physically. The labels they give themselves reflect where they align themselves regardless of the irrelevance the labels have to reality. Alphas (in their context) view women a commodity to use and dispose of. Sigmas are much more focused on independence. Lone wolf stuff.

The phrase "what you bring to the table" is currently heavily used by a lot of these young men. It's now at the level of parody.

Based on the very algorithmic nature of internet consumption, I can inadvertently lead a client down a weird path if they start researching these concepts. The alpha male/red pill/etc. internet sprints pretty quickly to White Nationalist pathways. The internet is weird.

Here is the thing. Most of these things were always true. It is just that most of it was not said loudly on the internet. When I was in college, most of the men majored in pre-med, business, engineering, or computer science. Does anyone believe that this was because we all wanted to help people or build things?

Economic statistics also show that a large reason for the disintegration in the middle class is assortive mating. People with college or graduate degrees and good jobs marry people who also have college or graduate degrees and good jobs.

So, what are the goals of these young people, to pursue money and power? That is what applying to med school or moving to silicon valley with your startup is about. When it does not work out, the goal should be to amend your expectations and pivot. I know many people for whom this is true that turned into healthy adults. The issue I think is what happens when they are not successful.

 

[Shiori]

Let me take a step back so I can clarify my main point.

I'm discussing how the current cycle of this very cyclical thing is showing up in clients today. In the vast majority of people, this is a very routine part of growing up. There are things people will say and do today to let you know if they're on the right track or if something is possibly going awry. There is language used today which, for the most part, just signals that they're consuming a particular kind of media related to relationships and dating. 9/10, this is totally fine and yields well to therapy or doesn't require therapy at all.

However, there are things our clients might say that we want to pay attention to and keep an eye on. For example, I have had an uptick in people discussing Norse Mythology. In 9/10 people, this is totally okay. In a small number of folks, it means they're on the edge of or in some of the riskier parts of TikTok/Instagram. I want to keep an eye on that, especially if it's incompatible with their therapy goals. A lot of times, they're lonely and looking for someone who makes them feel validated and loved. That love and validation can come from places that frankly suck. Grifters are very good at finding the kinds of clients I'm describing. It's not new. It just looks differently today than it did 10 years ago.

 

[Sanman]

So, I kind of view it as identity development and a bit of a reaction to boys being told that they're awful for being white and male and being into white and male things. That media landscape is pretty terrible for young men and the leftists in our field wonder why we are losing them.

I don't think that it is just being told that being "white and male" are bad. There are actual economic and societal issues at play. Men falling behind overall in the education game and good blue collar jobs are disappearing from our economy. These issues pre-date those narratives. Those individuals that are not succeeding in the modern economy and meeting the promise of doing better than their parents are often looking for someone to blame. Part of this is a psychology issue, but part of it is a general failure of politicians to address this appropriately.

 

[Sanman]

Let me take a step back so I can clarify my main point.

I'm discussing how the current cycle of this very cyclical thing is showing up in clients today. In the vast majority of people, this is a very routine part of growing up. There are things people will say and do today to let you know if they're on the right track or if something is possibly going awry. There is language used today which, for the most part, just signals that they're consuming a particular kind of media related to relationships and dating. 9/10, this is totally fine and yields well to therapy or doesn't require therapy at all.

However, there are things our clients might say that we want to pay attention to and keep an eye on. For example, I have had an uptick in people discussing Norse Mythology. In 9/10 people, this is totally okay. In a small number of folks, it means they're on the edge of or in some of the riskier parts of TikTok/Instagram. I want to keep an eye on that, especially if it's incompatible with their therapy goals. A lot of times, they're lonely and looking for someone who makes them feel validated and loved. That love and validation can come from places that frankly suck. Grifters are very good at finding the kinds of clients I'm describing. It's not new. It just looks differently today than it did 10 years ago.

Absolutely agree there. But this is where the pivot comes in. At some point, a young person needs to make the transition from "I am the next millionaire/billionaire" to "I have a good job", from "I want to be a player that sleeps with a million women" to "I want a healthy relationship with one woman". There are definitely unhealthy messages out for young people as there are for old people (I am looking at you Fox News), part of that is making the transition to normal adulthood and not being stuck in cognitive distortions and hopelessness.

 

[Dazen]

It is though! If done correctly, relationships with women will be a side effect! There is basically no way that self-improvement can't lead to more positive relationships and connection.

But instead of the money/power part, I've had much success in encouraging that self-improvement impulse, putting it into a hobby, and then having them be successful with women through that. I do love that young men are asking what women bring to the table. Any partner should be asking that of anyone they're into. But to be able to ask that, they need to not a be a hypocrite: If they want a trad wife - they need to be a trad husband.

There was a book called "How to succeed with women" that made it around my dorm. I read it. It changed my life. It taught me how to flirt, clarify goals with dating, etc., But also, it encourages you to do self-improvement. If you want to succeed with women, joining a uni club, because if you aren't you still benefit from learning how to make compost.

This has always been a confusing part of the rhetoric for me. A lot of red pill men say that they don’t believe in shared bank accounts, think women should financially provide for their own needs, etc. while also expecting them to be perpetually available to do all the homemaking and act as arm candy whenever they want that status symbol. The math isn’t mathing…

 

[Shiori]

Absolutely agree there. But this is where the pivot comes in. At some point, a young person needs to make the transition from "I am the next millionaire/billionaire" to "I have a good job", from "I want to be a player that sleeps with a million women" to "I want a healthy relationship with one woman". There are definitely unhealthy messages out for young people as there are for old people (I am looking at you Fox News), part of that is making the transition to normal adulthood and not being stuck in cognitive distortions and hopelessness.

Right. My work is oriented toward nurturing the pivot and trying to gently nudge them away from purchasing a $5,000 course on masculinity.

 

[Sanman]

Right. My work is oriented toward nurturing the pivot and trying to gently nudge them away from purchasing a $5,000 course on masculinity.

Of course, but you can only encourage them in that direction if they are ready to make the transition. No point in trying to convince someone that is still trying to be a billionaire or a player to set more realistic goals. You need to wait it out.

 

[Shiori]

Of course, but you can only encourage them in that direction if they are ready to make the transition. No point in trying to convince someone that is still trying to be a billionaire or a player to set more realistic goals. You need to wait it out.

Yep, I work on what they're open to working on.

 

[cara susanna]

I've seen this a LOT in online spaces (and I recently heard some tea that said Dr. K may also be along the lines of a red piller), but I've actually never encountered it clinically. I think if I did, I would focus a lot on effectiveness and acceptance. Like, how is this line of thinking helping you reach your goals?

 

[aim-agm]

I don't think that it is just being told that being "white and male" are bad. There are actual economic and societal issues at play. Men falling behind overall in the education game and good blue collar jobs are disappearing from our economy. These issues pre-date those narratives. Those individuals that are not succeeding in the modern economy and meeting the promise of doing better than their parents are often looking for someone to blame. Part of this is a psychology issue, but part of it is a general failure of politicians to address this appropriately.

Its interesting to think of "red pilling" as a fantasy, and what that particular fantasy means about the people who hold it. An interesting facet of this particular one is that it is not a "get rich quick" or "gimme gimme" sort of vibe, or even quite "the Other is ruining things for us" but a "I can achieve success if I work hard" (by lifting weights, etc.). I think that says a lot about how disempowered and hopeless these young men feel, probably in large part because of the modern economy.

This has always been a confusing part of the rhetoric for me. A lot of red pill men say that they don’t believe in shared bank accounts, think women should financially provide for their own needs, etc. while also expecting them to be perpetually available to do all the homemaking and act as arm candy whenever they want that status symbol. The math isn’t mathing…

A lot of red-pillers idealize Roman culture, I think these particular ones need a discussion of the Roman myth of Echo and Narcissus

 

[PsyDr]

My post was more about discussing the current version of male angst when they're struggling with loneliness and anger. They are adopting the attitude that "self-improvement" is way more important than relationships with women. They are coached to pursue money and power above all else and that women are only as useful as what they have to offer financially and physically. The labels they give themselves reflect where they align themselves regardless of the irrelevance the labels have to reality. Alphas (in their context) view women a commodity to use and dispose of. Sigmas are much more focused on independence. Lone wolf stuff.

My point was they are taking advice from *****s. But why?

If they want money, they should study finance at an Ivy. If they want power and money, they should go to law school, run for a low level federal office, and send the toughguys to war while longing DoD contractors on margin. If they want to use women as commodities, they should go to a location where prostitution is legal. If they want independence, they can just stay home. If they want to learn how to pick up women, they should ask women how to do it; or that ugly guy who is weirdly successful at picking up women, or a bunch of swingers. None of that is advised, and none of them do this. Why?

I would argue that anger and loneliness are only secondary emotions to a fantasy of what they want. It's analogous to asking why guys have a motorcycle whose front wheel extends way out from between their legs, makes a lot of noise to attract attention, is admired by a predominantly male audience, and has an attire that is social shorthand for "Grr, I'm masculine". It doesn't take a Freud to see some of the issues in that behavior. Maybe it's a skewing on the Kinsey scale, maybe it's a poor image or fantasy of masculinity, maybe it's a desire to feel powerful, maybe it's a hilariously bad lack of contact with actually rich and powerful, etc. But it isn't consistent with what the truly rich and powerful do. You don't see the Ndrangheta being showy, or saying anything, and their annual revenue is double Coca-cola's. You don't see interviews with Andrew Blinken, or J Pow. Instead it's a bunch of dudes who are focused on the physique of other dudes, while ignoring the people getting money and girls. But people are asking Andrew Tate. That is telling. It's like asking yourself why boys action figures are all muscled to an unreal degree.

 

[Sanman]

My point was they are taking advice from *****s. But why?

If they want money, they should study finance at an Ivy. If they want power and money, they should go to law school, run for a low level federal office, and send the toughguys to war while longing DoD contractors on margin. If they want to use women as commodities, they should go to a location where prostitution is legal. If they want independence, they can just stay home. If they want to learn how to pick up women, they should ask women how to do it; or that ugly guy who is weirdly successful at picking up women, or a bunch of swingers. None of that is advised, and none of them do this. Why?

I would argue that anger and loneliness are only secondary emotions to a fantasy of what they want. It's analogous to asking why guys have a motorcycle whose front wheel extends way out from between their legs, makes a lot of noise to attract attention, is admired by a predominantly male audience, and has an attire that is social shorthand for "Grr, I'm masculine". It doesn't take a Freud to see some of the issues in that behavior. Maybe it's a skewing on the Kinsey scale, maybe it's a poor image or fantasy of masculinity, maybe it's a desire to feel powerful, maybe it's a hilariously bad lack of contact with actually rich and powerful, etc. But it isn't consistent with what the truly rich and powerful do. You don't see the Ndrangheta being showy, or saying anything, and their annual revenue is double Coca-cola's. You don't see interviews with Andrew Blinken, or J Pow. Instead it's a bunch of dudes who are focused on the physique of other dudes, while ignoring the people getting money and girls. But people are asking Andrew Tate. That is telling. It's like asking yourself why boys action figures are all muscled to an unreal degree.

They do it for the same reason that folks sign up for seminars on buying properties "No Money Down" after watching free informercials on late night TV. Andrew Tate is giving them free internet content to fill up their brains and most people don't realize free advice is usually worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Shiori]

Sometimes I'll ask my clients if they're the type to shoot a 3-pointer in basketball so they have an excuse for why they miss. That question makes me think of some of these kinds of clients. They can miss countless times and it won't sting as much as failing a reasonable goal.

 

[Sanman]

Sometimes I'll ask my clients if they're the type to shoot a 3-pointer in basketball so they have an excuse for why they miss. That question makes me think of some of these kinds of clients. They can miss countless times and it won't sting as much as failing a reasonable goal.

The thing with basketball is that it is more about how close you get to your goal. An air ball will still get you laughed at when you could have passed. That said, In middle school I played in a community league and had a game where I was on fire. I took a 3 pointer from just in front of the half court line. I still remember my coach yelling "No, no, no" in the background and the yell turning into "Yes, yes, yes" when I sank the basket. Of the countless games I have played since then, that is still a highlight decades later. Sometimes it is just about believing in yourself and taking the shot because you are the only one that thinks you can make it.

 

[PsyDr]

They do it for the same reason that folks sign up for seminars on buying properties "No Money Down" after watching free informercials on late night TV. Andrew Tate is giving them free internet content to fill up their brains and most people don't realize free advice is usually worth exactly what you paid for it.

I think it's the same process. Someone is greedy. Greedy person has no idea how the wealthy work, or look like. Is too lazy to go to the library and spend 4 weeks reading the entire real estate section, or intern for a real estate guru, or go to networking events, or or or. Greedy person sees someone whose image mimics their perceived ideal. Doesn't ask why this person is not using this information for themselves. Falls for their scam. The imagined image is more important than the truth.

Sometimes I'll ask my clients if they're the type to shoot a 3-pointer in basketball so they have an excuse for why they miss. That question makes me think of some of these kinds of clients. They can miss countless times and it won't sting as much as failing a reasonable goal.

They want the image, not the success. They want to be the guy who got a 3pointer from half court at the buzzer. Biomechanically, the granny shot is more accurate. But people don't use the granny shot, because they value their peers' valuation of them more than they value winning. Same reason the red pillers don't worship Bill Gates.

now I'll shut up

 

[Sanman]

I think it's the same process. Someone is greedy. Greedy person has no idea how the wealthy work, or look like. Is too lazy to go to the library and spend 4 weeks reading the entire real estate section, or intern for a real estate guru, or go to networking events, or or or. Greedy person sees someone whose image mimics their perceived ideal. Doesn't ask why this person is not using this information for themselves. Falls for their scam. The imagined image is more important than the truth.

Absolutely. However, that is how most people think. You need to have the critical thinking and problem solving skills to figure out that the difference between the image and the truth. If you had those, you likely would not be in this position in the first place.

They want the image, not the success. They want to be the guy who got a 3pointer from half court at the buzzer. Biomechanically, the granny shot is more accurate. But people don't use the granny shot, because they value their peers' valuation of them more than they value winning. Same reason the red pillers don't worship Bill Gates.

now I'll shut up

Every year, on my anniversary, I used to cosplay as a rich person for the weekend. I never fail to get young men (waiters, valets, etc.) tripping all over me to make my stay better. Then, I go back to being a normal successful person and no one bothers me. It is funny what image does when properly managed.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Let me take a step back so I can clarify my main point.

I'm discussing how the current cycle of this very cyclical thing is showing up in clients today. In the vast majority of people, this is a very routine part of growing up. There are things people will say and do today to let you know if they're on the right track or if something is possibly going awry. There is language used today which, for the most part, just signals that they're consuming a particular kind of media related to relationships and dating. 9/10, this is totally fine and yields well to therapy or doesn't require therapy at all.

However, there are things our clients might say that we want to pay attention to and keep an eye on. For example, I have had an uptick in people discussing Norse Mythology. In 9/10 people, this is totally okay. In a small number of folks, it means they're on the edge of or in some of the riskier parts of TikTok/Instagram. I want to keep an eye on that, especially if it's incompatible with their therapy goals. A lot of times, they're lonely and looking for someone who makes them feel validated and loved. That love and validation can come from places that frankly suck. Grifters are very good at finding the kinds of clients I'm describing. It's not new. It just looks differently today than it did 10 years ago.

100% agree. For those who may not see the connection, White Supremacy and Christofacists (often they are the same people) have hijacked Norse Mythology to claim that "pure white bloodlines" of the Vikings is the ideal. Various Viking and Nordic symbolism and myths have been twisted to fit a white-centric view of the world. More info: White supremacists are misappropriating Norse mythology, says expert

 

[Sanman]

100% agree. For those who may not see the connection, White Supremacy and Christofacists (often they are the same people) have hijacked Norse Mythology to claim that "pure white bloodlines" of the Vikings is the ideal. Various Viking and Nordic symbolism and myths have been twisted to fit a white-centric view of the world. More info: White supremacists are misappropriating Norse mythology, says expert

I feel like this thread is colliding with my college enrollment thread.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It is also worth pointing out that ISIS/ISIL has been incredibly successful with radicalizing Americans (usually young males) using flashy multi-media presentations, videos, TikTok, etc. These Red Pill Spaces are ripe for recruitment. The same techniques are being used by other foreign nations and also white supremacists/domestic terrorists. They target incels and similar who are already angry, and they get them to buy in and point them towards targets.

 

[Shiori]

We'll just assign homework for our clients to go outside and make regular friends off the internet. They can have internet-based relationships too, but they need real life people to sand the edges off. You will get roasted into oblivion if you dress up in full (inaccurate) Viking garb and jump into a lake while wielding axes unironically.

 

[aim-agm]

We'll just assign homework for our clients to go outside and make regular friends off the internet. They can have internet-based relationships too, but they need real life people to sand the edges off. You will get roasted into oblivion if you dress up in full (inaccurate) Viking garb and jump into a lake while wielding axes unironically.

Maybe this is all a grand conspiracy to make LARP-ing cool

EDIT: I think there is also a lot of value in real-world relationships not just for maturing identity, but also for various identity functions such as practicing evolving identity (as new experiences lead you to reshape it) and prioritizing it appropriately as one facet of yourself, etc.

 

[Sanman]

We'll just assign homework for our clients to go outside and make regular friends off the internet. They can have internet-based relationships too, but they need real life people to sand the edges off. You will get roasted into oblivion if you dress up in full (inaccurate) Viking garb and jump into a lake while wielding axes unironically.

Someone should have told this guy.

 

[Shiori]

Maybe this is all a grand conspiracy to make LARP-ing cool

The OG LARP-ers are already unimpressed because they keep drawing lines on their chins like it was definitely a thing.

 

[clausewitz2]

Its interesting to think of "red pilling" as a fantasy, and what that particular fantasy means about the people who hold it. An interesting facet of this particular one is that it is not a "get rich quick" or "gimme gimme" sort of vibe, or even quite "the Other is ruining things for us" but a "I can achieve success if I work hard" (by lifting weights, etc.). I think that says a lot about how disempowered and hopeless these young men feel, probably in large part because of the modern economy.


A lot of red-pillers idealize Roman culture, I think these particular ones need a discussion of the Roman myth of Echo and Narcissus

As a hilarious aside, for as much as these folks lionize Roman culture as supposedly promoting 'virility', actual Roman texts use the word exactly the same way that romance writers use the word 'manhood'. That is, as a polite euphemism for male genitalia.

 

[clausewitz2]

100% agree. For those who may not see the connection, White Supremacy and Christofacists (often they are the same people) have hijacked Norse Mythology to claim that "pure white bloodlines" of the Vikings is the ideal. Various Viking and Nordic symbolism and myths have been twisted to fit a white-centric view of the world. More info: White supremacists are misappropriating Norse mythology, says expert

As someone who in the past spent a lot of time socially with some (non-racist) Asatruars, there has been an issue with white supremacists for a long time. Some people arrive at this from being dissatisfied with organized religions, looking for alternatives, and being told that they should not engage with spiritualities that they do not have a blood connection to. This is usually motivated by well-meaning concerns about cultural appropriation but for some people once you start stressing the importance of genetic descent and a narrow view of "heritage", it can start going to very ugly places.

They are not generally Christofascists in any meaningful sense, though, that is too much like "Semitic religion." These sorts of folks are the ones who burn churches in Scandinavia.

 

[clausewitz2]

The OG LARP-ers are already unimpressed because they keep drawing lines on their chins like it was definitely a thing.

Heck, if you really want someone to demolish them viciously, send them in their faux-historical get-ups to a Society for Creative Anachronism meeting. They will get a detailed assessment of the 27 ways in which their garb is inaccurate and why the name they have chosen for themselves is utterly ahistorical.