Reapplying after declining medical school offers

[Geezo]

Hello all,

My first post, but I've been lurking here for a longgggg time.

I need some opinions on what I should do next.

Long story short. Canadian citizen. Did my undergrad at McGill (cGPA 3.6, BCPM GPA 3.6). MCAT 40N (13V, 14B, 13P. Haha, that N pretty much destroyed any hopes of a Canadian medical school, except for maybe U of Toronto and McMaster). Lots of neuroscience research (full-time every summer in undergrad, working part-time during the school year, 4 years total, 3 peer-reviewed publications). Shadowed neurologists and neurosurgeons for 3 years (2-4 hrs/week, depending on if there were interesting stuff going on, learned a ****load of stuff, also gave me a reality check on physician life). Volunteering (~3 hrs/week) at hospital and advocacy groups for 3 years (1 year of which I served as president of the group).

Applied to 3 Canadian MD schools and 5 US MD schools (3 top tier, 2 middle-tier and had friends @ the school). One of the reasons I applied to these schools was that they all had strong research programs. Also, better research opportunities and funding in the US. In the end, I had one interview @ U of Toronto and another interview at a really good US school. I received acceptances to both schools.

I was going to attend the US school, which was one of my top choices, but then decided that I wanted to travel for 1-2 years, get some non-med related life experiences, before I start the medicine life (aka, working my ass off). I was also a little burnt-out from so much ...academia... In addition, if I were to go to the US school, I would need to take out nearly 300k in loans eek:......), so it was financially sound to travel before med school than to travel after residency, when the interests are piling up.

I tried to defer, but no luck, they just didn't do deferrals unless its the apocalypse. So I declined both offers and didn't go to medical school (a decision that was probably not my finest hr). I applied again this year to 8 MD schools in the US (4 top tier, 4 middle, including the ones I applied previously), but no luck yet (ouch...,). AMCAS in August, all secondaries in by late Sept. Now I'm paranoid, expecting the worst, and thinking of ways to improve my application for next year's cycle.

Any ideas? I don't think a post-bacc program will improve my GPA that much. I could take the MCAT again, but people have told me on many occasions the writing score is not too important in US schools. Redoing my PS to include my travel experiences is a possibility, but so much of my aspirations to do medicine had come from experiences during undergrad, before I traveled. So I don't see how the inclusion of my travel experiences would add much to my PS (maybe I'm wrong...). Do I really need more research? more clinical experience? In the most recent cycle, I applied a month later than the previous cycle (I was out of the country). Could that have contributed to ... the lack of interviews this year?

I've found that people in my situation is rare, so any help would be appreciated. Thanks all.

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[FutureDoc17]

Can't offer you any advice, man, but it looks like you stuck with your gut feeling at the time, and I've found that's always what's best.

I've played around with the idea of doing the same and traveling some before medical school - something which probably wouldn't merit a deferral - so I'm interested in a response as well.

 

[calimed214]

I don't understand... Did you not think about these issues -- the desire to travel, the expense, etc. -- PRIOR to applying to medical schools? Not only did you waste all the money spent during that application cycle, but you're risking not getting in anywhere now (which apparently is just beginning to dawn on you).

Unfortunately, I don't have any concrete advice on what you can do at this point, because I've never heard anyone make the decision that you did. Your commitment to medicine is definitely going to be called into question (which is your big hurdle now, not your MCAT/GPA or other aspects of your application) considering that you gave up two great acceptances that people would die to get. I think the only thing you can really do if you don't get in this year is apply again. Earlier, more schools, pray for luck.

 

[njbmd]

Your little "jaunt" has likely put you in the "wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole" group. Not a wise decision. Even dipped in chocolate and covered with peanut butter, you are likely not going to be very attractive to many schools. Good luck.

 

[J ROD]

OP, not to be rude but you are the perfect example of what I have been saying at school....some people are so smart they are stupid.....basically lack the common sense to get out of the rain.....

Why in the hell would you turn down med school to go on a vacation?

Blow my future or enjoy a yr or two.....

really stupid.....40 MCAT does mean you got sense.....

 

[matlabsux]

Just re-apply to a bunch of schools. The only schools that will know you turned down acceptances are the schools you turned down. Apply broadly, mostly private schools.

 

[calimed214]

Just re-apply to a bunch of schools. The only schools that will know you turned down acceptances are the schools you turned down. Apply broadly, mostly private schools.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that schools can tell if you were previously accepted via AMCAS.

 

[faith2]

No you are not wrong all info regarding medical school is in the AMCAS little black book.
I am not going to pour salt on your open, deep, puss infected wound. If you don not hear anything this year apply early(aug is not early), and to many schools ie top, bottom, middle whatever, and cross your fingers. I am the polite one but your situation baffles me. Good Luck
GO ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!
ACCEPTED 2014 UCF

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that schools can tell if you were previously accepted via AMCAS.

 

[swamprat]

Yeah I am sorry to hear about your situation although I think you are crazy for declining two MD acceptances. This is something you should have thought of before you applied and I agree with the previous posters that your commitment to medicine is definitely going to be questioned.

 

[Geezo]

Thank you all for your replies (even the critical ones).

Please let me elaborate on my reasonings.

First, I felt very lucky to have been accepted at those schools. I know many of you probably felt that I must be very cocky if I had the "guts" to decline med school offers. This is completely understandable, but that decision was a very difficult one for me.

Also, let me explain my idea of traveling. I don't mean travel as in "vacation" per se. I didn't want to visit a place, go sightseeing, and party all day. That would be fun, but wasn't my idea. I wanted to go work and live in a different culture to get some new perspectives in life.

I've had these ideas for quite a while. I think my biggest influence came from my conversations with residents and doctors at the hospital. Many of them suggested that I take some time off after undergrad to travel (I think I hanged around the hospital too much ...haha). I also noticed that some of the residents that traveled or worked in a different field before medical school were generally, but not always, more mature and were better doctors (even when corrected for age).

However, up until all my apps were handed in, I think my pre-med syndrome were in still effect and I basically thought, "oh, don't be silly...that's too risky and I will be missing out on years' worth of physician salary." I never gave it serious consideration until after my first interview. I did really well at the interview, and I felt that I had a good shot at an acceptance. After I received the acceptance, I gave it even more consideration. I think having the offer letter in my hand quelled much of the pre-med anxiety scared: to ). Then everything became clearer (to me, at least, but it could be that I fell into post-acceptance stupidity). I realized I've been quite one-dimensioned during undergrad, just hammered away at pre-med stuff (resulting in a failed relationship, spent almost no time with family, had no time for my hobbies ... hey! just like med school! ). I felt going away and working abroad would really be a great experience that will make me a more mature and cultured person before taking on medicine.

So I talk to some of my friends and many of the med students, residents, and physicians I know regarding my idea. I received a variety of responses, lol. Most of my friends in pre-med were very against it. But I found it interesting that most of the older, more experienced people told me it was a good idea. I also brought up my reasons to the adcom when I applied for deferral. They were sympathetic but the school policies were quite strict when it came to granting deferrals, which was understandable.

So in the end, I decided that medicine was a very worthwhile career, even with the long and grueling training period, the time commitments, the emotional and physical stresses ... It will most likely be a life-long career, and I think spending time traveling or gaining more life experiences before medical school would make me a better physician on the long run. I remembered how naive and inexperienced I was in 1st year of univ, and how much I've changed in 4 years, and what another 2 years can do ... I think I'll just be a better person with the added experience.

With that said, apparently either the adcom doesn't agree with me, or that I didn't accurately express my intentions in my PS. Now I'm planning for the worst. If I didn't dig myself in a hole, horray. If I did, how do I get out of it, and prevent this from becoming the biggest blunder in my life (now I'm from to ).

Sorry, long post!

Interestingly, one of my friends, a psych major, has told me that I might have a rare psychological disorder that will continually put me in the pre-med state of mind, rejecting offers just to be a pre-med, resulting in an endless waltz with AMCAS, LORs, and pre-med forum lurking...

 

[J ROD]

 

[lastcall]

OP, since you are a Canadian citizen, why didn't you attend U of Toronto if the high tuition cost (for international students attending a U.S. med school) was one of your issues? (i.e. you already discussed wanting personal time off to travel). Good luck to you, whatever you ultimately decide.

 

[Geezo]

OP, since you are a Canadian citizen, why didn't you attend U of Toronto if the high tuition cost (for international students attending a U.S. med school) was one of your issues? (i.e. you already discussed wanting personal time off to travel). Good luck to you, whatever you ultimately decide.

Good question. The relatively cheap tuition @ U of T was a huge plus and the awesome teaching hospitals around provided a good research environment (I did a summer of research there).

However, during the interviews, my impression of the US school was much better than U of T (has anyone seen the U of T med sci building? btw, it was where they filmed part of the recent hulk movie). Also, I'm interested in research (maybe a PhD one day...), and the current Canadian government is cutting back on research funding (while the US is getting more funding. Lovely, more brain drain). So it's becoming harder for young researchers/students in Canada to get the money they need for research.

I have no doubt that both institutions would provide solid medical education (except McGill is better than U of T, but I digress...). However, I decided the extra tuition (lots...of extra tuition) of the US school was acceptable for the improved research environment.

Also, my parents are in Toronto. I'm sure that affected my judgement, subconsciously...

 

[samuraiR]

Could always try DO since they dont use AMCAS? They probably wont know about you turning down any offers. (Someone correct me if that is wrong)

 

[matlabsux]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that schools can tell if you were previously accepted via AMCAS.

My mistake, I was not reading carefully and I missed that his 2 MD acceptances were for U.S. schools, I thought they were all Canadian acceptances.

Yes, AMCAS submits a report with all of your reapplications listing previous matriculations. I am not sure why each school notifies AMCAS of every single acceptance they make. The majority of US schools accept many more students than they enroll in their programs. It baffles me why they do all the paperwork required to notify AMCAS of all of the students they accept, regardless if the student matriculated to the school or not. That seems like a lot of needless paperwork, but it's how the system works.

 

[Geezo]

My mistake, I was not reading carefully and I missed that his 2 MD acceptances were for U.S. schools, I thought they were all Canadian acceptances.

Yes, AMCAS submits a report with all of your reapplications listing previous matriculations. I am not sure why each school notifies AMCAS of every single acceptance they make. The majority of US schools accept many more students than they enroll in their programs. It baffles me why they do all the paperwork required to notify AMCAS of all of the students they accept, regardless if the student matriculated to the school or not. That seems like a lot of needless paperwork, but it's how the system works.

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my post. The two offers consisted of 1 Canadian and 1 US.

Thank you all for the info! If the schools know through AMCAS, I should probably explain my decision more thoroughly in any future PS...

 

[murfettie]

eh.
if you get into MD/PHD then you don;t pay for med school, maybe not for foreigners?
you are not doing yourself a favor by ruling out of canadian schools, canada is fine for med school. you can always get a PhD from like MIT or something later, you don't need to pay for phD anyways, they pay you.

You'll get in, apply EARLY, June 1st.
It's no biggie.

 

[Buzz Me]

At the very least, show a little humility and apply more broadly. Don't apply to only "top-tier" and "middle tier" programs.

 

[Geezo]

eh.
if you get into MD/PHD then you don;t pay for med school, maybe not for foreigners?
you are not doing yourself a favor by ruling out of canadian schools, canada is fine for med school. you can always get a PhD from like MIT or something later, you don't need to pay for phD anyways, they pay you.

You'll get in, apply EARLY, June 1st.
It's no biggie.

MD/PhDs for foreigners are a bit more complicated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't qualify for the MSTP program because I do not have US citizenship or permanent residency. There are other MD/PhD programs, which require me to pay med school tuition, but the PhD years have no tuition and I get get a stipend.

Thanks for the encouragement, and I will apply on the first day next cycle (kicking myself for not applying early this past summer...).

At the very least, show a little humility and apply more broadly. Don't apply to only "top-tier" and "middle tier" programs.

I should probably do this for next yr's cycle. I previously picked the schools based on their research credentials (talking to PIs to get their opinion, make sure school is close to/affiliated with good teaching hospitals and research centers, etc). After much lurking around, I found that the schools fell in what most SDNers consider "top tier" and "middle tier". I don't care much if the medical school is "top 20" or whatever, my experience has been that its not about the school but how far you are willing to go with your career. Good doctors will be good doctors regardless where they attended school. Bad doctors will probably be bad doctors even if they attend the best school in the universe. One of my supervisors attended medical school at a little known med school, but he is now one of the experts in the world in his subspecialty.

Any ideas regarding any "low-tier" (I don't like this term...) that have good research programs? and also international-student-friendly? Much thanks.

I'm also thinking of retaking the MCAT to boost my writing score (N ... ) so I have a shot at more Canadian schools. But I risk the 40. I've found that after you hit 33 on the MCAT, it pretty much becomes a game of luck (Did I feel good that day...Did I like the passages...Did the guy sitting next you keep tapping his feet?...). Any advice on improving writing scores would also be very welcome.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So I'm going to disagree with the others and say that taking time off to travel was probably an OK idea. It's true that once you're in medicine, you won't have that chance again until you're much older, so I think it's reasonable to take advantage of the opportunity while you've got it.

As for your current application, yeah putting something about the travel in your PS would be a good idea, both explaining why you did it and what you gained from it. Relevant life experiences for medical school aren't purely medical. Also, I agree that applying more broadly is a good idea, but I don't think DO schools would be great for you based on your desire to have strong research exposure. And when does your MCAT expire? If it's close to expiring, it might make sense to take it again to up the writing score. You might hit 40 again, but I'm sure you'll still score very highly, and that will open more doors in Canada.

 

[Catalystik]

If you reapply, be sure to have some recent, medically-related EC and community service (if not already involved) so you have "improvements" since the last application. Also, I've seen an applicant dissed for taking off two years to do research, but having no recent coursework at application time. Maybe taking an upper-level science class this semester would be a good idea to keep your hand in.

 

[MsTaco]

You know, a couple of my good friends in college went the straight-through route, and they always tell me that they regret it and they're jealous of me for taking some time away. Personally, I'm infinitely grateful that I took the time away, and I know I will be a better doctor for it. You expressed the same sentiments, which tells me you feel the same way...so don't regret it, because you did the best thing for you at the time. As for the consequences...IMO, the fact that you took a couple years away, did something totally different from the pre-med usuals, and STILL came back to medicine should make you look more committed to medicine, not less. Think of it this way--you took time away from medicine, time to learn about yourself and explore etc, and you came back still certain that medicine was for you...which shows more maturity and perspective. But I realize a lot of adcoms will not automatically see it that way. To that effect, if you believe that you are a better person for having taken the time, and that it only strengthened your commitment to medicine, you're going to have to spell that out for your readers in your application. Don't try to tip-toe around it. It's going to be an up-hill battle, but if you're willing to fight it, that should count for something.

 

[cleothecat]

What a potential waste of a great score.

Lesson learned. If not allowed to defer matriculation then consider taking a year off after first or second year.

 

[faith2]

I admire you because you did something that most of us would not have done. That being said you should prepare to retake the MCAT, apply early, and express your new found knowledge in your personal statement. Pick a specific experience from your travels and relate it to your future plans as a Dr. and let this be your opening paragraph. I wish you luck

GO ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!!
ACCEPTED 2014 UCF

 

[Geezo]

So I'm going to disagree with the others and say that taking time off to travel was probably an OK idea. It's true that once you're in medicine, you won't have that chance again until you're much older, so I think it's reasonable to take advantage of the opportunity while you've got it.

As for your current application, yeah putting something about the travel in your PS would be a good idea, both explaining why you did it and what you gained from it. Relevant life experiences for medical school aren't purely medical. Also, I agree that applying more broadly is a good idea, but I don't think DO schools would be great for you based on your desire to have strong research exposure. And when does your MCAT expire? If it's close to expiring, it might make sense to take it again to up the writing score. You might hit 40 again, but I'm sure you'll still score very highly, and that will open more doors in Canada.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

If you reapply, be sure to have some recent, medically-related EC and community service (if not already involved) so you have "improvements" since the last application. Also, I've seen an applicant dissed for taking off two years to do research, but having no recent coursework at application time. Maybe taking an upper-level science class this semester would be a good idea to keep your hand in.

That's a good idea. Thank you.

You know, a couple of my good friends in college went the straight-through route, and they always tell me that they regret it and they're jealous of me for taking some time away. Personally, I'm infinitely grateful that I took the time away, and I know I will be a better doctor for it. You expressed the same sentiments, which tells me you feel the same way...so don't regret it, because you did the best thing for you at the time. As for the consequences...IMO, the fact that you took a couple years away, did something totally different from the pre-med usuals, and STILL came back to medicine should make you look more committed to medicine, not less. Think of it this way--you took time away from medicine, time to learn about yourself and explore etc, and you came back still certain that medicine was for you...which shows more maturity and perspective. But I realize a lot of adcoms will not automatically see it that way. To that effect, if you believe that you are a better person for having taken the time, and that it only strengthened your commitment to medicine, you're going to have to spell that out for your readers in your application. Don't try to tip-toe around it. It's going to be an up-hill battle, but if you're willing to fight it, that should count for something.

I agree completely. What I found was that generally people who had taken time off never regret it and they think it had helped them be more mature and understanding. But this is true only if they did something they loved, not something just to fill time. People who hadn't taken time off often thinks they probably should have. Thanks for your sympathies and advice.

What a potential waste of a great score.

Lesson learned. If not allowed to defer matriculation then consider taking a year off after first or second year.

Lesson learned indeed. All part of growing up, I guess. Taking time off after first and second year would've been a much safer, and smarter, idea.

I admire you because you did something that most of us would not have done. That being said you should prepare to retake the MCAT, apply early, and express your new found knowledge in your personal statement. Pick a specific experience from your travels and relate it to your future plans as a Dr. and let this be your opening paragraph. I wish you luck

GO ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!!
ACCEPTED 2014 UCF

Thank you. I plan on doing just that if I don't get any acceptances this cycle.

 

[mzblue]

Using your travel experiences as your opening paragraph might not be the best idea. Read Pandabears personal statement. it's a parody but it touches on all the stuff adcoms see over and over again. Make it original and not about how saving AIDs babies in africa blah, blah, blah.
Best of luck

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.



That's a good idea. Thank you.



I agree completely. What I found was that generally people who had taken time off never regret it and they think it had helped them be more mature and understanding. But this is true only if they did something they loved, not something just to fill time. People who hadn't taken time off often thinks they probably should have. Thanks for your sympathies and advice.



Lesson learned indeed. All part of growing up, I guess. Taking time off after first and second year would've been a much safer, and smarter, idea.



Thank you. I plan on doing just that if I don't get any acceptances this cycle.

 

[faith2]

Is that the only thing he could have learned? Could it also be about other healthcare systems differ, how he tried something diff. in his travels and realize his passion is still medicine, or how he just wanted a break form school and used that time to learn about himself etc etc. The point is not everyone who travels the world saves AIDS babies.

 

[peppy]

If I were you, I wouldn't retake the MCAT unless it was going to expire. It would be all too easy to lose points in the other areas, which would definitely hurt you, and I'm not sure that improving the writing sample would actually help you much at all. Back when I was applying, it was common knowledge that the writing sample was essentially ignored by the adcoms. In any case, I think it's safe to say your MCAT isn't the problem here.
I'd reapply next year to many more schools with a personal statement that does go into what happened last time and the things you gained from your travels. I definitely think there are some schools out there that would give you another chance if you had a good explanation and applied broadly. You definitely have to take the view that you are starting out at a distinct disadvantage due to the questions raised by the prior declined offers though and apply more broadly than you normally would. My guess is that you were hurt this time by the schools assuming the worst about why you didn't take the acceptances last time (and I would suspect the schools whose acceptances you rejected the first time probably automatically rejected you this time).
I can understand why you made the decision that you did. Hope things work out for you!

 

[Geezo]

Using your travel experiences as your opening paragraph might not be the best idea. Read Pandabears personal statement. it's a parody but it touches on all the stuff adcoms see over and over again. Make it original and not about how saving AIDs babies in africa blah, blah, blah.
Best of luck

I will definitely avoid writing a generic essay. Keeping it original is def a good idea.

Is that the only thing he could have learned? Could it also be about other healthcare systems differ, how he tried something diff. in his travels and realize his passion is still medicine, or how he just wanted a break form school and used that time to learn about himself etc etc. The point is not everyone who travels the world saves AIDS babies.

I agree. You can learn a great deal from traveling/working abroad. Some of the other healthcare systems (aka, non-US, non-Canadian) are really interesting, esp in Europe. It would be really cool to see first hand how Gov "death panels" are doing for the people in France, UK, Sweden, etc.

If I were you, I wouldn't retake the MCAT unless it was going to expire. It would be all too easy to lose points in the other areas, which would definitely hurt you, and I'm not sure that improving the writing sample would actually help you much at all. Back when I was applying, it was common knowledge that the writing sample was essentially ignored by the adcoms. In any case, I think it's safe to say your MCAT isn't the problem here.
I'd reapply next year to many more schools with a personal statement that does go into what happened last time and the things you gained from your travels. I definitely think there are some schools out there that would give you another chance if you had a good explanation and applied broadly. You definitely have to take the view that you are starting out at a distinct disadvantage due to the questions raised by the prior declined offers though and apply more broadly than you normally would. My guess is that you were hurt this time by the schools assuming the worst about why you didn't take the acceptances last time (and I would suspect the schools whose acceptances you rejected the first time probably automatically rejected you this time).
I can understand why you made the decision that you did. Hope things work out for you!

Thank you for the encouragement and sympathies. I got the same feeling that my prior acceptances raised a huge red flag that may not have been thoroughly explained in my app.

 

[JeepMD]

OP, I've been through something very similar to what you are going through. Turned down an acceptance to US MD school to enjoy a year off from school and to travel. I took my lumps the next application cycle, though I still think it is because I did very little in my time off that bolstered my application. I got no acceptances from the select amount of schools I applied to (like 3) and determined that I was gonna have to step it up for the next go round. I took a lab job, volunteered at a clinic and retook the MCAT (only b/c I had a 31... I don't recommend this for you and your ridiculous 40). The following cycle, I interviewed at 2 schools and was accepted at both... one of them being the school I previously turned down an acceptance to.

That being said, I also included something about my traveling in my personal statement and I was very willing to talk about it in my interviews. At both interviews they were very interested in tales of my travels. Keep your head up! If you really want it, it will work out. 30 years from now you won't regret the traveling you did.

 

[Geezo]

OP, I've been through something very similar to what you are going through. Turned down an acceptance to US MD school to enjoy a year off from school and to travel. I took my lumps the next application cycle, though I still think it is because I did very little in my time off that bolstered my application. I got no acceptances from the select amount of schools I applied to (like 3) and determined that I was gonna have to step it up for the next go round. I took a lab job, volunteered at a clinic and retook the MCAT (only b/c I had a 31... I don't recommend this for you and your ridiculous 40). The following cycle, I interviewed at 2 schools and was accepted at both... one of them being the school I previously turned down an acceptance to.

That being said, I also included something about my traveling in my personal statement and I was very willing to talk about it in my interviews. At both interviews they were very interested in tales of my travels. Keep your head up! If you really want it, it will work out. 30 years from now you won't regret the traveling you did.

I'm very glad it worked out for you. And it gives me much hope that I can also convince the adcom. I will def try to do something med-related during my travels to show that I still have a strong interest in medicine. Thank you for the post and the encouragements.

 

[dragonfly99]

I think you should have taken one of the acceptances, then taken a year off after 1st or 2nd year...they would have let you most likely. What you did was risky.

I don't think you need to retake your MCAT for US schools...they don't care much about the writing sample.

You need to explain in your personal statement why you didn't take an acceptance the first time. You need to apply to a lot more schools, apply more broadly. Don't be too finicky...you can always do a PhD later, regardless of which med school you end up going to.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Lesson learned indeed. All part of growing up, I guess. Taking time off after first and second year would've been a much safer, and smarter, idea.

No, it wouldn't have. When you apply to residencies you have to explain any gaps/lengthenings of your medical education. A 2 year vacation wouldn't go over so hot.

 

[dragonfly99]

I know several people who took a year off after 1st or 2nd year of med school, and it didn't hurt their residency applications at all...so long as their grades and LOR's were good, that is. Two years off might be a different story.