[Real-Life] Dentist's Wife is disappointed that they can't afford a house because of his loans

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Incis0r

I LOVE Dental School
7+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
6,169
@Dipdoc was kind enough to share a 3-minute, short entertaining video that shows Dave Ramsey's (major financial guru) reaction to the wife of a dentist with $480K loans. The wife called asking about buying a house...watch what happens:



This was originally posted on the Dental Subforum by DipDoc but I am sharing it here just so that more pre-dents see what it can be like after dental school.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
480k to be a DENTIST?!

I wonder how he would have reacted to ~230k for those of us choosing in-state schools
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
230k? Which school?
That was just my weak guesstimate.

I'll hopefully attend Rutgers.. which (I think) floats around 260k while living off ramen
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I'll hopefully attend Rutgers.. which (I think) floats around 260k while living off ramen

260K is doable- I hope you get in! You'll be in an excellent position after graduation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Tbh, the debt after dental school is troublesome to me. The fact that I graduated undergrad with ~30K of debt seemed staggering until I learned about how much even the cheapest dental schools cost.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Texas schools weigh in around here if you live modestly.

I think A&M claimed that their average indebtedness was 156k, and Houston 174k but I could be remembering incorrectly. Obviously people who's families or scholarships help them are probably skewing that big time
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I think A&M claimed that their average indebtedness was 156k, and Houston 174k but I could be remembering incorrectly. Obviously people who's families or scholarships help them are probably skewing that big time
Really? Wow, hope I get in even more. I have a buddy who graduated from A&M who told me he had a little over 200k but he also had a family with three kids so that would increase expenses a little.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
As much as I love South Carolina, threads like this make being a Carolinian a little discouraging. My only instate school cost $250,000 BEFORE living expenses and the school is in the most expensive city in the state. I could pay out of state tuition at some schools and come out cheaper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@Dipdoc was kind enough to share a 3-minute, short entertaining video that shows Dave Ramsey's (major financial guru) reaction to the wife of a dentist with $480K loans. The wife called asking about buying a house...watch what happens:



This was originally posted on the Dental Subforum by DipDoc but I am sharing it here just so that more pre-dents see what it can be like after dental school.

I wouldn't want to end up with $480k student loans but if I did, then I would try to pay that off as soon as possible. I know some people pay off over decades but that's not my plan. When I get my first job, I will put everything toward paying off my debts and live off of like $30,000 or less until I completely pay it off or until the principal is manageable. Of course, you shouldn't get a mortgage when you have half a million in debt but if you CAN get a mortgage, isn't it better to buy a house than to rent since you're losing money if you're renting (assuming the rent and mortgage payments are equal)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I wouldn't want to end up with $480k student loans but if I did, then I would try to pay that off as soon as possible. I know some people pay off over decades but that's not my plan. When I get my first job, I will put everything toward paying off my debts and live off of like $30,000 or less until I completely pay it off or until the principal is manageable. Of course, you shouldn't get a mortgage when you have half a million in debt but if you CAN get a mortgage, isn't it better to buy a house than to rent since you're losing money if you're renting (assuming the rent and mortgage payments are equal)?

A house costs more than just a mortgage payment.

Examples:
1) Property Tax
2) Interest on the Mortgage
3) Utilities
4) Repair bills- what if the roof needs a $10K repair?
5) HOA dues
6) Lawn Maintenance and Snow Removal

Etc. etc.

There is a saying...it is something along the lines of a "If you rent, then that is the maximum you'll pay for housing while a mortgage is the minimum you'll pay if you own."

And renting provides flexibility. Got a better job? Want to try out a new place of the country? Just don't extend your lease. If you own, then you have to list the house, pay a real estate agent, pray the buyers don't back out at the last minute, etc etc.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Yeah... definitely not showing this to my future wife....

If you think that your financial situation will lead to her reacting similarly, then is that someone you really want to be your wife?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Another reason as to why finding a girl who is smart and motivated will only help your situation... A working spouse while in dental school is huge. If she/he is willing to sacrifice for you earlier on, then she/he will reap the benefits later on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Thanks Incis0r. It's funny, I've actually seen this before.. And I think it's precisely for this reason that I think I'm changing my mind about wanting to be a dentist. These private schools are evil.. Charging this much for school? Yeah what happens when you have to fork over 500k for practice acquisition? Plus these private schools only add to the over-saturation problem. Does it even make sense to become a dentist anymore? It seems the answer to that question is only yes if you can get in state tuition at a public school, a huge scholarship, you want to go practice in the middle of nowhere (some podunk rural area), have incredibly wealthy parents who are willing to pay your tuition, or have parents who are already dentists and willing to hand you over the practice.

Dental schools will only be open as long as people keep applying to them.. There needs to be a push-back against this, there's something wrong here.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
People react this way when I tell them how much money I borrowed for my first year of dental school.:laugh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
A house costs more than just a mortgage payment.

Examples:
1) Property Tax
2) Interest on the Mortgage
3) Utilities
4) Repair bills- what if the roof needs a $10K repair?
5) HOA dues
6) Lawn Maintenance and Snow Removal

Etc. etc.

There is a saying...it is something along the lines of a "If you rent, then that is the maximum you'll pay for housing while a mortgage is the minimum you'll pay if you own."

And renting provides flexibility. Got a better job? Want to try out a new place of the country? Just don't extend your lease. If you own, then you have to list the house, pay a real estate agent, pray the buyers don't back out at the last minute, etc etc.

Excellent points.
Keep in mind though that almost all of those expenses you listed are tax deductible, including the depreciation of your home. Add in more deductions for your student loan payments and your tax liability just keeps on dropping. Plus, you can't exactly break a lease unless you pay. You can move out of your house and get tenants to pay for your mortgage. From there, you can get a property manager and a home warranty (also tax deductible expenses)

That may not justify buying a home in every situation, just things to consider.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@Dipdoc was kind enough to share a 3-minute, short entertaining video that shows Dave Ramsey's (major financial guru) reaction to the wife of a dentist with $480K loans. The wife called asking about buying a house...watch what happens:



This was originally posted on the Dental Subforum by DipDoc but I am sharing it here just so that more pre-dents see what it can be like after dental school.

His reaction was entertaining to watch. I'd love to see his response if one of the pre-dents on SDN called his show asking him where to attend after informing him of how much it costs for dentists to become educated at ANY of the private schools or public out-of-state. If only the general population understood exactly how expensive it is...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Thanks Incis0r. It's funny, I've actually seen this before.. And I think it's precisely for this reason that I think I'm changing my mind about wanting to be a dentist. These private schools are evil.. Charging this much for school? Yeah what happens when you have to fork over 500k for practice acquisition? Plus these private schools only add to the over-saturation problem. Does it even make sense to become a dentist anymore? It seems the answer to that question is only yes if you can get in state tuition at a public school, a huge scholarship, you want to go practice in the middle of nowhere (some podunk rural area), have incredibly wealthy parents who are willing to pay your tuition, or have parents who are already dentists and willing to hand you over the practice.

Dental schools will only be open as long as people keep applying to them.. There needs to be a push-back against this, there's something wrong here.
I think if student loans would stop being given out like candy the schools would be forced to lower their prices for so few people would attend. As long as people can easily borrow 500k (without a clue as to what that really means in the long term) to get through school the schools will charge that. So while student loans are often seen as a good thing I think in the long term they're what's causing this problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Keep in mind though that almost all of those expenses you listed are tax deductible, including the depreciation of your home. Add in more deductions for your student loan payments and your tax liability just keeps on dropping. Plus, you can't exactly break a lease unless you pay. You can move out of your house and get tenants to pay for your mortgage. From there, you can get a property manager and a home warranty (also tax deductible expenses)

1. Note that I never said to break a lease. I said to just not renew. Given that most leases are only a year long, I think the case for flexibility stands.
2. Student loan payments are not deductible. Interest on student loans is up to $2,500, but that's only available if you make below $80K if single and $160K if married.
3. You can deduct depreciation only if you're renting property out.
4. You can only deduct other home expenses like utilities and mortgage if you work from home/have a home office. You CAN deduct mortgage interest, but that's not much (and if it is, then you bought too much house).
5. You cannot deduct homeowner's insurance or principal mortgage payments.

If anyone wants to explore the buying vs. renting argument more, I recommend this post written by an extraordinary writer. She really breaks it down well: http://thepowerofthrift.com/to-buy-or-to-rent-that-is-the-question/
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm going to send this to our personal finance instructor at MWU AZ and see what he thinks about it since it's very obviously a D4 here!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I'm going to send this out personal finance instructor at MWU AZ and see what he thinks about it since it's very obviously a D4 here!

You recognized Dawn's voice? Oh snap, things just got real!
 
I think if student loans would stop being given out like candy the schools would be forced to lower their prices for so few people would attend. As long as people can easily borrow 500k (without a clue as to what that really means in the long term) to get through school the schools will charge that. So while student loans are often seen as a good thing I think in the long term they're what's causing this problem.
Well exactly. That's one of the reasons school is so expensive. Nowadays you can borrow 100% of your school costs no questions asked! It's giving the schools a blank check to charge whatever they want. Seriously, there is something wrong here that needs to be fixed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I see the struggle of new-grads that enter the workforce everyday. They usually go from happy to sad to depressed really quick.

I do have one new grad friend that graduated with 300k, bought a house for 700k, and just bought a practice for 800k. He doesn't seem worried one bit though, so more power to him.

You guys have no idea how much 400k really is. I feel sorry for the new generation of dentists.
These are simply my opinions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Dave Ramsay is allergic to debt and likely doesn't realize that dental education is very expensive in general so I would take his reaction with a grain of salt. There are several repayment/service options that I personally think would be preferable to living like a pauper for another 10 years as he would advise.
 
Last edited:
Dave Ramsay is allergic to debt and likely doesn't realize that dental education is very expensive in general so I would take his reaction with a grain of salt. There are several repayment/service options that I personally think would be preferable to living like a pauper for another 10 years as he would advise.
I have heard people dismiss Ramsey before because he is indeed allergic to debt ( no doubt about that). Not saying you're wrong per se, but I don't get the logic behind that. 480k student debt to earn 100-150 grand. What is Ramsey wrong about? It seems like he has a pretty clear picture to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I see the struggle of new-grads that enter the workforce everyday. They usually go from happy to sad to depressed really quick.

I do have one new grad friend that graduated with 300k, bought a house for 700k, and just bought a practice for 800k. He doesn't seem worried one bit though, so more power to him.

You guys have no idea how much 400k really is. I feel sorry for the new generation of dentists.

Yikes. Are you in practice right now? How much debt do you think is the max one should take out?
 
This is why I made that thread about 450k in loans. Too many students don't realize what the hell that number means.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Yikes. Are you in practice right now? How much debt do you think is the max one should take out?

I actually have all my loans paid off just recently. I started at about 200k, but I had parent support. Threw everything at loans.

Anyways, dentistry is what you make of it. Yes the aspect of business is lucrative but it's not that "easy" to buy a practice and be that 4 day workweek porsche dentist. There's alot more "average" dentists on 4 day workweeks making 150-180k and paying off student loans, housing loans, and practice loans. I think to be 400k in debt...I know people will disagree- but I would rather be a MD as the returns on income on average is higher. If I wanted to make 150-180k, I would of been a pharmacist with 200k debt and a easier "life" even though I know the pharm D forums are complaining about the oversaturation.

But like I said, my coworker has 1.8 mil in debt, and he isn't worried. My endodontist friend who has to pay to go to endo school is about 600k when all is said and done. I don't feel the burden anymore as my loans are done and I'm "ok."
These are simply my opinions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well exactly. That's one of the reasons school is so expensive. Nowadays you can borrow 100% of your school costs no questions asked! It's giving the schools a blank check to charge whatever they want. Seriously, there is something wrong here that needs to be fixed.
I'm totally with you. With all the talk about making college "free" by taxing people to pay for others' tuition you never hear anyone questioning why on earth tuition is so absurdly expensive these days in the first place. Tuition across the board has gone up so much in the past few decades (100-200%, after inflation) it's shocking. My dentist graduated in the 70's from a private school and paid less than 35k total for the entire 4 years. That's half of what must state schools charge today (also after inflation)! This bubble of students taking out loans and colleges therefore raising their prices is insane. Unfortunately way too many people get caught up in the mentality schools push on you-"you'll pay it up real quickly"-but of course that's usually not the case (nor is it even possible in most cases).
 
Too many of you are oblivious to the economic realities you're going face. Seriously, having to come up with $5,000 - $6,000 EVERY SINGLE MONTH for the next decade of your life should scare the crap out of you.

Big Hoss
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I actually have all my loans paid off just recently. I started at about 200k, but I had parent support. Threw everything at loans.

Congratulations!!! $200K IS a HUGE VICTORY.

Did you use any loan repayment programs/work at a CHC, work at a corp, or did you associate at a practice?

Any advice you have for pre-dents who will be looking at $200-300K?
 
I see the struggle of new-grads that enter the workforce everyday. They usually go from happy to sad to depressed really quick.

I do have one new grad friend that graduated with 300k, bought a house for 700k, and just bought a practice for 800k. He doesn't seem worried one bit though, so more power to him.

You guys have no idea how much 400k really is. I feel sorry for the new generation of dentists.
Something sounds fishy to me here. How did he get a bank to loan him 700k and then 800k if he was already in 300k of debt...
 
Something sounds fishy to me here. How did he get a bank to loan him 700k and then 800k if he was already in 300k of debt...
Cosigner is with another dentist that has zero debt- parents paid for it all off. He told me he needed her to cosign. Their total cash flow is prob about 350k+
These are simply my opinions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Does it even make sense to become a dentist anymore? It seems the answer to that question is only yes if you can get in state tuition at a public school, a huge scholarship, you want to go practice in the middle of nowhere (some podunk rural area), have incredibly wealthy parents who are willing to pay your tuition, or have parents who are already dentists...

I've heard a lot of people mention that you can earn more in rural/underserved areas. Does anyone have any insight on this? Outside of service corps I have not heard of dentists going to rural areas to make money. Just an FYI I'm from a rural area and would love to find myself back to my home town or somewhere like it.
 
I've heard a lot of people mention that you can earn more in rural/underserved areas. Does anyone have any insight on this? Outside of service corps I have not heard of dentists going to rural areas to make money. Just an FYI I'm from a rural area and would love to find myself back to my home town or somewhere like it.
The reason dentists make more money in a rural area is due to the dentist to population ratio. Most people (in this case dentists) don't want to live in rural areas, thus more dentists congregate in big cities. It all depends on your city though. If you don't have many dentists in your city, then you'll probably make more money than dentists in the big cities who have more competition for patients. More competition also drives prices down. So dentists in rural areas also may be able to charge higher fees.

It all comes down to supply and demand really.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Congratulations!!! $200K IS a HUGE VICTORY.

Did you use any loan repayment programs/work at a CHC, work at a corp, or did you associate at a practice?

Any advice you have for pre-dents who will be looking at $200-300K?

1) Always look for business opportunities to own a business

2) Go where you are needed to make $$$. For those with 400,000k loans that 20,0000 interest a year. You can't sit around New York/SF/LA drinking starbucks working 5 days a week, getting paid 500$ and showing off that you made it. You are broke. You need to go rural or semi rural move states and live within your budget and buckle down on loans. 6 days a week, 500$ rent and 10-12000 or more especially around dec-jan paychecks after taxes as an associate will get you places then sitting in SF rent 2000-3000 with crummy 6000-8000$ checks after taxes.

3) If you find a decent associateship, settle for it, work hard, make money, and be ready to jump on a practice when the opportunity presents itself. Don't just jump to own right away- make sure its the right one. Do your homework and do your due diligence.

There are other ways to tackle debt- some say invest in a practice- consolidate the loans and pay when you are making money as an owner. That way you build your practice, and your money "goes further" in equity and value. I did it the other way as I am young 28 and I wanted to just get this debt nonsense off my mind, travel the world a bit before 30 and then settle for a practice early 30's. I dunno, for me, I would feel terrible consolidating my loans, living it up in New York, and traveling the world while I know I have a 200k loan on my back. Right now, I can travel guilt free. Everyone is different, but I think the key thing is go where you are needed, be ready for the right opportunity, and work hard.
These are simply my opinions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
1. Note that I never said to break a lease. I said to just not renew. Given that most leases are only a year long, I think the case for flexibility stands.
2. Student loan payments are not deductible. Interest on student loans is up to $2,500, but that's only available if you make below $80K if single and $160K if married.
3. You can deduct depreciation only if you're renting property out.
4. You can only deduct other home expenses like utilities and mortgage if you work from home/have a home office. You CAN deduct mortgage interest, but that's not much (and if it is, then you bought too much house).
5. You cannot deduct homeowner's insurance or principal mortgage payments.

If anyone wants to explore the buying vs. renting argument more, I recommend this post written by an extraordinary writer. She really breaks it down well: http://thepowerofthrift.com/to-buy-or-to-rent-that-is-the-question/

1. Yes, I agree. Renting CAN give you more flexibility. But if you have a great job offer while the majority of your lease remains, it'll cost you. Whereas renting out your home if possible could be a quicker solution.
2. A $2500 deduction I think is very feasible to meet those guidelines for new grads, especially depending on their marital status or if they have children. As you know, its all dependent on your federal exemptions. But if you are single and not making much, a house purchase might be a good idea for the tax benefits. There are definitely tax deferred shelters available (I'm talking about the legal and ethical ones lol)
3. Yes, you got me there. I was renting my house out before I sold it so that's probable why I was thinking of depreciation.
4. You're right again. But the interest paid at the beginning of a mortgage is usually the majority of your payment, with the ratio of interest to principle becoming smaller and smaller as the property is amortized. This way, your interest deduction is larger if you purchased a home after D-School, bringing you closer to the MAGI threshold for the additional student loan tax deduction.
5. You are correct, you cannot deduct principle payments. I was deducting the insurance because I was renting my place out so that's why I mentioned it, but like you mentioned, that was a business expense. Come to think of it, I probably should've been depreciating all of my appliances too...

You know your stuff dude.

I think if student loans would stop being given out like candy the schools would be forced to lower their prices for so few people would attend. As long as people can easily borrow 500k (without a clue as to what that really means in the long term) to get through school the schools will charge that. So while student loans are often seen as a good thing I think in the long term they're what's causing this problem.

In theory, you make a good argument. But there are lots of other factors to consider. Will schools really lower costs? Or will they just have a smaller pool of applicants? Would the dental application paradigm shift from choosing the most qualified, to choosing only those who can afford it? Without getting into a whole new debate, consider the effect on applicant diversity, and the subsequent distribution of those graduates.
Would schools begin to close down? And if they do, would that really be good for "satuaration?" I think that would create signicant more shortages in underserved areas. New grads will still be congregating to larger cities. I doubt that the distribution ratio would change.
That brings me to my next point: With the number and/or quality of dentists possibly changing, how would that affect supply and demand? Reimbursement rates would change, dentists would be able to charge more, and that would create even more of a problem when it comes to access to care in some areas.
Another thing to consider is that even though dental school costs have significantly increased in recent years, and disproportionately to inflation, how much have the operation costs of a dental school gone up? The advances in technology are not cheap. Cost of equipment, infrastructure, etc have gone up since the 70's. So for private schools, what would they do to make up for the cost difference? Reduce salaries? That would impact faculty quality and retention. Increase fees for patients? Again that would create an issue with regards to access to care, as well as the size of the patient pool. This would have its own set of impacts on dental training and education.
In-state public schools are definitely cheaper to attend with regards to tuition, but the cost difference is subsidized by the state, and that is still a burden on the taxpayers.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that there are so many factors and variables to consider other than just restricting student loan amounts. Some problems may get solved, but it might also create a whole new set of issues.
 
@schmoob

You've got a very wise head on your shoulders. And I will add that sometimes, it's worth going for the more expensive set-up, regardless of whether it is renting or buying, due to other benefits such as the emotional satisfaction that owning may provide.

It is clear to me that you are going into this with your eyes open and won't let these additional home expenses surprise you, which makes me tremendously happy :)

If you decide to go for homeownership, I know you'll be fine! Good luck.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@schmoob


As for me...I want to stack cash ($200k+ cash, $1m+ investments) and eventually one day retire overseas....perhaps a nice beach villa in Costa Rica or Thailand. Thailand is great because it can function as a central backpacking hub for the entire SEA region.

Yes. Yes yes. Except I just want a nice cottage in southern England.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It's possible to pay that off, but anyone with that much debt better prepared to work their butt off. It would be wise to associate for a couple of years, take lots of CE, learn as much as you can about the business side of dentistry and then purchase your own practice. Sometimes, taking on more debt is the best way to go, but you obviously need to make a wise purchase that comes with as little risk as possible.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You pursuing FI/RE too?!

FI/RE is the goal (at least the FI part) but whether or not it is truly attainable in this field is the question.

Sometimes I regret the fact that I switched over from medicine, but that's purely financial I still would prefer to practice dentistry.

I just think that the possibility to really earn a decent income in dentistry is decreasing with each passing year, and while I like dentistry for a lot more than money, I'd be lying if i said it wasn't a big part of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
FI/RE is the goal (at least the FI part) but whether or not it is truly attainable in this field is the question.

Sometimes I regret the fact that I switched over from medicine, but that's purely financial I still would prefer to practice dentistry.

I just think that the possibility to really earn a decent income in dentistry is decreasing with each passing year, and while I like dentistry for a lot more than money, I'd be lying if i said it wasn't a big part of it.
Do you think Medicine makes more?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top