Rads to Anesthesia?

[pataskala7]

Hey All,

Current 2nd year rads resident (PGY-3). Getting burnt out about rads now that I'm actually taking call - turns out I dislike sitting in a dark room alone at night reading stacks of unending studies, studying arcane minutiae and talking to no one. When I look back at med school, intern year and residency, the things I liked are working as part of a team, physiology & pharmacology, frequent but limited patient interaction, and minor procedures (not surgery or 6hr TIPS). I've spoken with my friends in anesthesia and they seem to continue to enjoy it into their advanced years. I'm considering exiting radiology and joining the match this year for a CA-1 spot starting 2018, which I know are few but still not uncommon. (I checked and my intern year satisfies the requirements for anesthesia residency).

My stats: Step 1 240s, Step 2 250s, Step 3 240s, Senior AOA, bunch of radiology research

Tell me why I'm an idiot.

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[Hoya11]

Hey All,

Current 2nd year rads resident (PGY-3). Getting burnt out about rads now that I'm actually taking call - turns out I dislike sitting in a dark room alone at night reading stacks of unending studies, studying arcane minutiae and talking to no one. When I look back at med school, intern year and residency, the things I liked are working as part of a team, physiology & pharmacology, frequent but limited patient interaction, and minor procedures (not surgery or 6hr TIPS). I've spoken with my friends in anesthesia and they seem to continue to enjoy it into their advanced years. I'm considering exiting radiology and joining the match this year for a CA-1 spot starting 2018, which I know are few but still not uncommon. (I checked and my intern year satisfies the requirements for anesthesia residency).

My stats: Step 1 240s, Step 2 250s, Step 3 240s, Senior AOA, bunch of radiology research

Tell me why I'm an idiot.

Your not an idiot. Go with your heart. The only mistake is if you dont like anesthesia too, your years set back in terms of income.

Its just strange that you would get so far doing rads, most of us anesthesia folks are so hands on and directly clinical. I would never have considered rads or lasted that long as a resident.

 

[urge]

Might want to consider also that IBM's Watson will read all studies quicker, cheaper, and more accurately than any human will.

I have a buddy who reads films from home 9 to 5 and doubles my salary. Might want to consider that also. That is until Watson takes over.

 

[facted]

Might want to consider also that IBM's Watson will read all studies quicker, cheaper, and more accurately than any human will.

I have a buddy who reads films from home 9 to 5 and doubles my salary. Might want to consider that also. That is until Watson takes over.

Watson or teleradiology from anywhere else in the world.

 

[Strider_91]

Might want to consider also that IBM's Watson will read all studies quicker, cheaper, and more accurately than any human will.

I have a buddy who reads films from home 9 to 5 and doubles my salary. Might want to consider that also. That is until Watson takes over.

Who takes the hit when Watson misses something and gets sued for malpractice?

 

[urge]

Who takes the hit when Watson misses something and gets sued for malpractice?

Watson's malpractice insurer, obviously.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Hey All,

Current 2nd year rads resident (PGY-3). Getting burnt out about rads now that I'm actually taking call - turns out I dislike sitting in a dark room alone at night reading stacks of unending studies, studying arcane minutiae and talking to no one. When I look back at med school, intern year and residency, the things I liked are working as part of a team, physiology & pharmacology, frequent but limited patient interaction, and minor procedures (not surgery or 6hr TIPS). I've spoken with my friends in anesthesia and they seem to continue to enjoy it into their advanced years. I'm considering exiting radiology and joining the match this year for a CA-1 spot starting 2018, which I know are few but still not uncommon. (I checked and my intern year satisfies the requirements for anesthesia residency).

My stats: Step 1 240s, Step 2 250s, Step 3 240s, Senior AOA, bunch of radiology research

Tell me why I'm an idiot.

Wife is a radiologist, and we talk trash about each others' fields all the time. I usually win when I'm doing it from home at 330 after getting out at 2 and have gone for a run already.

The benefits and drawbacks of the fields are very different. My wife has no interest in anesthesia and I have no interest in radiology. I wouldn't say it's wrong to switch, but I'd make sure it's what you really want before burning those years of training. Realistically, you'd have to do one more year of rads while applying (too late for this year).

 

[Timeoutofmind]

Hey All,

Current 2nd year rads resident (PGY-3). Getting burnt out about rads now that I'm actually taking call - turns out I dislike sitting in a dark room alone at night reading stacks of unending studies, studying arcane minutiae and talking to no one. When I look back at med school, intern year and residency, the things I liked are working as part of a team, physiology & pharmacology, frequent but limited patient interaction, and minor procedures (not surgery or 6hr TIPS). I've spoken with my friends in anesthesia and they seem to continue to enjoy it into their advanced years. I'm considering exiting radiology and joining the match this year for a CA-1 spot starting 2018, which I know are few but still not uncommon. (I checked and my intern year satisfies the requirements for anesthesia residency).

My stats: Step 1 240s, Step 2 250s, Step 3 240s, Senior AOA, bunch of radiology research

Tell me why I'm an idiot.

IR? Always seemed like such an awesome field to me. I know the lifestyle can be rough though. I wonder if there are some reasonable lifestyle options if you really look around though?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Not trying to be inflammatory, but everytime someone tell me that AI will take over radiology I tell them to look at sedasys or the effort to automate anesthesia. I think the effort was closer to reality versus AI in radiology. Yet, clinicians continue to prefer human being and the automation effort in anesthesia did not pan out.

The current state of art allow AI to learn how to catch a particular finding via a "classifer" that an AI scientist build. It's getting fairly good (not great, not diagnostically useful yet) to find things like a nodule on an X ray. However, AI is unable to make an independent diagnosis say, if you are trying to figure out if someone has a leak post whipple.

I have to say that as a second year, I hated radiology too. You just know enough to be toss to read a ton and don't know enough to feel competent. If I were you, I would stick it out for one more year and do IR. Most of IR now are NOT six hour cases. If you must switch though, you must switch.

 

[facted]

Not trying to be inflammatory, but everytime someone tell me that AI will take over radiology I tell them to look at sedasys or the effort to automate anesthesia. I think the effort was closer to reality versus AI in radiology. Yet, clinicians continue to prefer human being and the automation effort in anesthesia did not pan out.

The current state of art allow AI to learn how to catch a particular finding via a "classifer" that an AI scientist build. It's getting fairly good (not great, not diagnostically useful yet) to find things like a nodule on an X ray. However, AI is unable to make an independent diagnosis say, if you are trying to figure out if someone has a leak post whipple.

I have to say that as a second year, I hated radiology too. You just know enough to be toss to read a ton and don't know enough to feel competent. If I were you, I would stick it out for one more year and do IR. Most of IR now are NOT six hour cases. If you must switch though, you must switch.

That's fair, but diagnostic radiology is easily outsourced to other humans in other parts of the country and world willing to read for far less than you might. That's already in full swing. IR is clearly different.

I personally find it hard to believe in anesthesia automation for the same reason airlines aren't getting rid of pilots anytime soon (and their AI is kickass!!) People like to know that there is a human at front of the plane when **** hits the fan.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

That's fair, but diagnostic radiology is easily outsourced to other humans in other parts of the country and world willing to read for far less than you might. That's already in full swing. IR is clearly different.

I personally find it hard to believe in anesthesia automation for the same reason airlines aren't getting rid of pilots anytime soon (and their AI is kickass!!) People like to know that there is a human at front of the plane when **** hits the fan.

This gets thrown out there a bunch but to the best of my knowledge it's not true. I'm fairly certain you have to have a medical license in the US in order to get reimbursed for reads. Many places use nighthawk services but they are based in other parts of the US. Or like one radiology practice my wife knows, rents an apt in Paris and sends people over for a few weeks at a time to read overnight.

But it's not like overnight reads are being outsourced to Indian radiologists or something.

 

[Consigliere]

Tell me why I'm an idiot.

Because you're considering switching to anesthesia; a field with a future even more bleak than radiology. Hey, both fields DO have something in common: you have to do multiple fellowships to be employable.

 

[Consigliere]

People like to know that there is a human at front of the plane when **** hits the fan.

2 words: Captain Sully

 

[anbuitachi]

Hey All,

Current 2nd year rads resident (PGY-3). Getting burnt out about rads now that I'm actually taking call - turns out I dislike sitting in a dark room alone at night reading stacks of unending studies, studying arcane minutiae and talking to no one. When I look back at med school, intern year and residency, the things I liked are working as part of a team, physiology & pharmacology, frequent but limited patient interaction, and minor procedures (not surgery or 6hr TIPS). I've spoken with my friends in anesthesia and they seem to continue to enjoy it into their advanced years. I'm considering exiting radiology and joining the match this year for a CA-1 spot starting 2018, which I know are few but still not uncommon. (I checked and my intern year satisfies the requirements for anesthesia residency).

My stats: Step 1 240s, Step 2 250s, Step 3 240s, Senior AOA, bunch of radiology research

Tell me why I'm an idiot.

My question is if those are what you liked in med school... why did you go into radiology?

And to above posters, AI is not taking over radiology any time soon, and is not going to be outsourced to other countries physicians any time soon. Even if it is proposed, the legal stuff alone will take years. And currently radiology job is recovering and better than anesthesiology job market, and pay is higher. But if you have hard time w sitting in teh dark, def go into anesthesiology.

 

[DrCommonSense]

My question is if those are what you liked in med school... why did you go into radiology?

And to above posters, AI is not taking over radiology any time soon, and is not going to be outsourced to other countries physicians any time soon. Even if it is proposed, the legal stuff alone will take years. And currently radiology job is recovering and better than anesthesiology job market, and pay is higher. But if you have hard time w sitting in teh dark, def go into anesthesiology.

Should've been a damn radiologist.

Maybe its not too late to go back to do ER or Neurology if every subspecialty of Anesthesiology goes to crap?

Or should I just do the MBA thing and go into consulting with the possibility of moving into good business positions?

Anesthesiology is going to crap faster than expected due to militant CRNAs and AMCs.

 

[facted]

This gets thrown out there a bunch but to the best of my knowledge it's not true. I'm fairly certain you have to have a medical license in the US in order to get reimbursed for reads. Many places use nighthawk services but they are based in other parts of the US. Or like one radiology practice my wife knows, rents an apt in Paris and sends people over for a few weeks at a time to read overnight.

But it's not like overnight reads are being outsourced to Indian radiologists or something.

Could be about the US license, but that doesn't preclude from the work being done by someone living in a much cheaper place to live and doing the same work for cheaper. I personally know two radiologists that read during the day from areas far from where they live. It's not only nights...

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Could be about the US license, but that doesn't preclude from the work being done by someone living in a much cheaper place to live and doing the same work for cheaper. I personally know two radiologists that read during the day from areas far from where they live. It's not only nights...

This whole "reading from india" thing is the analogy of "crna take over ALL jobs" as both have about the same likelyhood of happening. You absolutely cannot believe one without believing the other.

Aka you shouldn't believe either.

 

[DrCommonSense]

This whole "reading from india" thing is the analogy of "crna take over ALL jobs" as both have about the same likelyhood of happening. You absolutely cannot believe one without believing the other.

Aka you shouldn't believe either.

No one said "CRNAs are going to take over all the jobs".

They are saying the salaries will DROP ALOT due to oversupply of CRNAs who take many of the "bread and butter" cases using an "independent" model.

Ergo, there will be an oversupply of providers in anesthesia (doubling or more since CRNA schools are putting them out in HUGE numbers) with only slight increases in demand.

You do the math.

 

[urge]

Not trying to be inflammatory, but everytime someone tell me that AI will take over radiology I tell them to look at sedasys or the effort to automate anesthesia. I think the effort was closer to reality versus AI in radiology. Yet, clinicians continue to prefer human being and the automation effort in anesthesia did not pan out.

The current state of art allow AI to learn how to catch a particular finding via a "classifer" that an AI scientist build. It's getting fairly good (not great, not diagnostically useful yet) to find things like a nodule on an X ray. However, AI is unable to make an independent diagnosis say, if you are trying to figure out if someone has a leak post whipple.

I have to say that as a second year, I hated radiology too. You just know enough to be toss to read a ton and don't know enough to feel competent. If I were you, I would stick it out for one more year and do IR. Most of IR now are NOT six hour cases. If you must switch though, you must switch.

IBM’s Automated Radiologist Can Read Images and Medical Records


Radiology is done. It is easy for a computer. It's patern recognition. Same stuff uswd for fingerprints or face recognition.

Anesthesia is harder to automate because it is hard for a computer to put an iv, a line, et tube, a block, or code a patient. I agree there might not be a need for someone to sit the case but there needs someone to get the case going.


Sedasys failed because 1, they couldn't bill for the anesthesia and 2, it reacted too late, it could not predict there was a big stimulus coming.

 

[Strider_91]

Wouldn't an over supply of CRNA hurt them worse than it will hurt MDs? It will just get increasingly difficult for them to get a job. Salaries may drop for MDs but once that happens the CRNAs will drop also and thus be totally screwed.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

IBM’s Automated Radiologist Can Read Images and Medical Records


Radiology is done. It is easy for a computer. It's patern recognition. Same stuff uswd for fingerprints or face recognition.

Anesthesia is harder to automate because it is hard for a computer to put an iv, a line, et tube, a block, or code a patient. I agree there might not be a need for someone to sit the case but there needs someone to get the case going.


Sedasys failed because 1, they couldn't bill for the anesthesia and 2, it reacted too late, it could not predict there was a big stimulus coming.

Like I said in an earlier post, if you think computer can take over radiology but not anesthesia, you are demostraing ignorance.

The truth is neither specialty can be replaced by machine or mid levels. That's why I said if one think "radiology is done because of AI/India", that's a thinking along the line of "CRNA take over all of anesthesia.

I think I already wrote about reading image in the form of "yes" or "no" to a question like "is there bleed" is vastly different from what a radiologist do day to day.

The idea that a computer can take over your job is as offensive to me as I imagine, to suggest that a machine can take over your job. Let's keep it collegial here.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Wouldn't an over supply of CRNA hurt them worse than it will hurt MDs? It will just get increasingly difficult for them to get a job. Salaries may drop for MDs but once that happens the CRNAs will drop also and thus be totally screwed.

Yes and no.

They would probably stay around the same or slightly increase with increased work schedule.

However, if they get to 200K for a 45 hour week, I don't think there would be any slowing down of nurses willing to become a CRNA.

You also have to remember they are very JEALOUS of physicians, so its as much about lowering the doctors salaries as it is increasing their own.

Psychology 101 people. Relative deprivation is all that matters.

 

[urge]

Like I said in an earlier post, if you think computer can take over radiology but not anesthesia, you are demostraing ignorance.

The truth is neither specialty can be replaced by machine or mid levels. That's why I said if one think "radiology is done because of AI/India", that's a thinking along the line of "CRNA take over all of anesthesia.

I think I already wrote about reading image in the form of "yes" or "no" to a question like "is there bleed" is vastly different from what a radiologist do day to day.

The idea that a computer can take over your job is as offensive to me as I imagine, to suggest that a machine can take over your job. Let's keep it collegial here.

You are calling me ignorant because my opinion difers from yours and then you are asking to keep it collegial. Do you notice the irony? I sure did. It's your way or the highway.

 

[urge]

Do We Need Fewer Radiologists?
Workforce planning for organized radiology is tricky. That AI will do the job radiologists do today is a mathematical certainty. The question is when. If it were within 6 months, radiologists may as well fall on their swords today. A reasonable timeframe is anything between 10 and 40 years, but closer to 10 years. How radiologists and AI could interact might be beyond our imagination. Enlitic's Barani believes that radiologists can use AI to look after populations. AI, he says, "can scale the locus of a radiologist's influence."

Medscape: Medscape Access

Lots of ignorants around.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

You are calling me ignorant because my opinion difers from yours and then you are asking to keep it collegial. Do you notice the irony? I sure did. It's your way or the highway.

I am calling you ignorant because the likelyhood of AI completely taking over radiology is about as likely as CRNA completely taking over anesthesia. I find it distasteful when someone who has not demostrated either expertise in computer vision or radiology claim imminent demise of my field.

As you may note, I did not come in prounce anything disrespectful for your field. I used the whole CRNA example to illustrate how outlandish it is.

To the poster below, enlithic has been claiming to have a product that will read clinical images for awhile now. As far as I know, it's all vapor ware.

 

[Consigliere]

Wouldn't an over supply of CRNA hurt them worse than it will hurt MDs? It will just get increasingly difficult for them to get a job. Salaries may drop for MDs but once that happens the CRNAs will drop also and thus be totally screwed.

Faulty logic. As AMCs take over previous all MD practices and displace anesthesiologists, crnas are needed to fill the void. Supervisory ratios will increase and anesthesiologists will be the ones looking for jobs, NOT crnas. Already happening and has been for years...

 

[DrCommonSense]

Faulty logic. As AMCs take over previous all MD practices and displace anesthesiologists, crnas are needed to fill the void. Supervisory ratios will increase and anesthesiologists will be the ones looking for jobs, NOT crnas. Already happening and has been for years...

What the solution for anesthesiologists at that point?

Different residency? Fellowship?

I don't see how fellowships help that much for complex peds and cardiac as per the discussions in the other chat considering the payor mix is CRAP considering the extreme level of liability for those cases.

Anyone worth some money wouldn't intelligently take that risk.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I am not an anesthesiologist, but it seems like to me honestly independant CRNA practice is one bad outcome and one NYT expose from crumbling.

How can anyone justify less training and experience without oversight? Will senators and congressman accept anesthesia care on themselves or family members from crnas without supervision?

 

[DrCommonSense]

I am not an anesthesiologist, but it seems like to me honestly independant CRNA practice is one bad outcome and one NYT expose from crumbling.

How can anyone justify less training and experience without oversight? Will senators and congressman accept anesthesia care on themselves or family members from crnas without supervision?

NYT is a liberal newspaper that believes physicians are overpaid. They strongly support CRNA independence. I doubt they will expose CRNA mishaps much.

How much coverage did they give to the CRNA who knocked off a patient at the VA recently that was so egregious they were considering allowing a lawsuit against the VA despite a policy against suing? I saw the article in some smaller medical related journals but never in the NYT or Washington Post.

The Hill publishes articles all the time by CRNAs claiming they are more "cost effective".

Congressmen/President's might use an MD anesthesiologist but that doesn't mean they won't support CRNAs for everyone else.

 

[Strider_91]

Faulty logic. As AMCs take over previous all MD practices and displace anesthesiologists, crnas are needed to fill the void. Supervisory ratios will increase and anesthesiologists will be the ones looking for jobs, NOT crnas. Already happening and has been for years...

I don't quite understand that. Why would the lesser trained professionals who were cranking out graduates be finding jobs easier than the supervisors who have more training and limited numbers of graduates? Why would anyone ever pay a crna the same as an anesthesiologist, wouldn't they want to keep the ratio the same. Let's say an anesthesiologist makes 40% more (just picking a number) than a Crna if their salary went down I would think crna salaries would also get lower. If crnas ever make the same as MDs why would anyone ever hire them over an MD? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Consigliere]

I don't quite understand that. Why would the lesser trained professionals who were cranking out graduates be finding jobs easier than the supervisors who have more training and limited numbers of graduates? Why would anyone ever pay a crna the same as an anesthesiologist, wouldn't they want to keep the ratio the same. Let's say an anesthesiologist makes 40% more (just picking a number) than a Crna if their salary went down I would think crna salaries would also get lower. If crnas ever make the same as MDs why would anyone ever hire them over an MD? That doesn't make sense.

I'll make it easier for you with an example: Let's say Best Anesthesia Group Ever employs 85 anesthesiologists....now Ass_Hat AMC comes along and makes a slew of promises to administration, who of course buys it, and they now have the contract for anesthesia services. Ass_Hat AMC utilizes an anesthesia care team model whereby 4 crna's will be supervised by 1 anesthesiologist - no need for 85 anesthesiologists anymore. To make things easier, let's assume these previous 85 anesthesiologists covered 85 anesthetizing locations daily (OR, OB, GI suite, cath lab, MRI, etc.). Now 85 crnas cover them and only about 21-22 anesthesiologists are needed to "supervise" them. So 60+ anesthesiologists are now out of a job and 85 crnas were hired. Multiply this by dozens of occurrences across the USA and you'll see why MORE crnas, and LESS anesthesiologists are needed.

 

[kjamess]

Like I said in an earlier post, if you think computer can take over radiology but not anesthesia, you are demostraing ignorance.

The truth is neither specialty can be replaced by machine or mid levels. That's why I said if one think "radiology is done because of AI/India", that's a thinking along the line of "CRNA take over all of anesthesia.

I think I already wrote about reading image in the form of "yes" or "no" to a question like "is there bleed" is vastly different from what a radiologist do day to day.

The idea that a computer can take over your job is as offensive to me as I imagine, to suggest that a machine can take over your job. Let's keep it collegial here.

This. The day AI takes over radiology is the day that AI takes over many other specialties in medicine, as well as other industries. They cant even come up with an accurate EKG machine to replace the need for cardiology interpretation. Machine learning will streamline and assist radiologists, but a complete takeover? Lol. And who is gonna have medical liability? Watson?

 

[Strider_91]

I'll make it easier for you with an example: Let's say Best Anesthesia Group Ever employs 85 anesthesiologists....now Ass_Hat AMC comes along and makes a slew of promises to administration, who of course buys it, and they now have the contract for anesthesia services. Ass_Hat AMC utilizes an anesthesia care team model whereby 4 crna's will be supervised by 1 anesthesiologist - no need for 85 anesthesiologists anymore. To make things easier, let's assume these previous 85 anesthesiologists covered 85 anesthetizing locations daily (OR, OB, GI suite, cath lab, MRI, etc.). Now 85 crnas cover them and only about 21-22 anesthesiologists are needed to "supervise" them. So 60+ anesthesiologists are now out of a job and 85 crnas were hired. Multiply this by dozens of occurrences across the USA and you'll see why MORE crnas, and LESS anesthesiologists are needed.

Now are those few anesthesiologists who are supervising actually making more money since they are supervising 4 cases at once instead of being able to only do 1 case at a time?

 

[urge]

This. The day AI takes over radiology is the day that AI takes over many other specialties in medicine, as well as other industries. They cant even come up with an accurate EKG machine to replace the need for cardiology interpretation. Machine learning will streamline and assist radiologists, but a complete takeover? Lol. And who is gonna have medical liability? Watson?

The guys here accept the machine reading all the time. I have never seen them overrule it.

That might be the case with radiology. Maybe 1 guy will go over a few thousand machine readings in 1 day.

 

[mostwanted]

Now are those few anesthesiologists who are supervising actually making more money since they are supervising 4 cases at once instead of being able to only do 1 case at a time?

No, but they are aging quicker.

 

[deleted162650]

Now are those few anesthesiologists who are supervising actually making more money since they are supervising 4 cases at once instead of being able to only do 1 case at a time?

If they were still owners of their own private practice then yes, they would be. But since they are AMC employees they are not, and may actually be making less than before.

 

[kjamess]

The guys here accept the machine reading all the time. I have never seen them overrule it.

That might be the case with radiology. Maybe 1 guy will go over a few thousand machine readings in 1 day.

Which "guys" are you talking about? Automated EKG reads only have a sensitivity in the 60s for catching an MI. And you honestly think 1 radiologist can proof read thousands of machine reads in a day? Do you even know what radiologists do on a day to day basis?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Which "guys" are you talking about? Automated EKG reads only have a sensitivity in the 60s for catching an MI. And you honestly think 1 radiologist can proof read thousands of machine reads in a day? Do you even know what radiologists do on a day to day basis?

The only people that I've seen relying on auto EKG reads are interns and nursing staff. Actually even nursing staff know to look for a resident read.

 

[anbuitachi]

you guys must have awful EKG reading machines... whenever the EKG is read as sinus rhythm, i always read it as sinus as well.. its pretty good in my opinion

 

[Consigliere]

Now are those few anesthesiologists who are supervising actually making more money since they are supervising 4 cases at once instead of being able to only do 1 case at a time?

No. The AMC pays a set salary and skims the rest of the money.

 

[anbuitachi]

No. The AMC pays a set salary and skims the rest of the money.

It's so messed up that AMCs provide no service and only serves as a way to make money and increase healthcare cost by asking for larger reimbursements due to their size. I hope they pass a law to ban this but doubt that will ever happen.

 

[urge]

Which "guys" are you talking about? Automated EKG reads only have a sensitivity in the 60s for catching an MI. And you honestly think 1 radiologist can proof read thousands of machine reads in a day? Do you even know what radiologists do on a day to day basis?

By guys I mean cardiology attendings.

 

[urge]

Which "guys" are you talking about? Automated EKG reads only have a sensitivity in the 60s for catching an MI. And you honestly think 1 radiologist can proof read thousands of machine reads in a day? Do you even know what radiologists do on a day to day basis?

Radiology buddy I mentioned earlier reads close to 1k studies a day from home. That's how he doubles my salary. And that's without any sort of help, other than speech recognition. With Watson he could be reading a lot more I'm sure. He has contracts with multiple hospitals. Most of the stuff are ER x rays which he reads in a few seconds. He doesn't bill the insurance, he gets a flat rate per contract.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

The guys here accept the machine reading all the time. I have never seen them overrule it.

That might be the case with radiology. Maybe 1 guy will go over a few thousand machine readings in 1 day.

Yeah, but even a jacked-up EKG will take, what, 30 seconds to read, at most? And you don't really need to know anything about the patient. Easy to over-read.

It'd take 15 minutes to over-read the belly-bomb of a CT on the chick who's had 30 abdominal surgeries, where context and patient history is important. No way a computer is taking that over any time soon.

Maybe computers will be able to take over stuff like ER CXRs and screening mammos (with or without an over-read), but that's the equivalent of Sedasys taking over propofol sedation for ASA1s and 2s, and we see how that's working out. And it's still dependent on IBM or someone willing to be on the hook for malpractice claims decades down the line.

I think the lower-hanging fruit is a lot of the IR procedures. Especially all the access stuff, I can envision that being taken over by midlevels in the not-too-distant future.

 

[vm26]

Both fields have their challenges. Obviously CRNA's are more of a real/current threat to anesthesiology, than AI is to rads...with that said AI is something that I would consider choosing radiology as a new trainee. Its hard to gauge how quickly technology can develop. CAD for mammography is essentially useless. Also its one thing to make a finding but a very different thing to make clinical sense of these findings. Hard to read through susceptibility artifact on a shoulder MRI and make the relevant findings etc...I expect AI will be a real threat to rads (and other fields in medicine) when driverless cabs/Ubers and airplanes become the norm...I would also welcome AI performing BE's on all those 90 y/o's with redundant, never ending colon, lung biopsy's on COPD patients, and liver biopsies on cirrhotics etc...

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Radiology buddy I mentioned earlier reads close to 1k studies a day from home.

1000 studies a day, assume a 8 hour work day, is 125 x rays an hour, or about 29 seconds per study. This is assuming zero phone or other interruption. In my experience, it takes about 15 seconds to pull up a study plus load the dedictation template and to select a template. This leaves about 14 seconds for interpretation. Most radiograph has about 2-3 views, so this leaves about 5 to 7 seconds per view.

Sounds like your "friend" is already faster than an AI.

I also don't have enough anesthesia knowledge to know what would be the safety equivalence to that. Maybe that's equivalent to running 20 rooms of ASA4 with brand new CRNAs?

 

[urge]

1000 studies a day, assume a 8 hour work day, is 125 x rays an hour, or about 29 seconds per study. This is assuming zero phone or other interruption. In my experience, it takes about 15 seconds to pull up a study plus load the dedictation template and to select a template. This leaves about 14 seconds for interpretation. Most radiograph has about 2-3 views, so this leaves about 5 to 7 seconds per view.

Sounds like your "friend" is already faster than an AI.

I also don't have enough anesthesia knowledge to know what would be the safety equivalence to that. Maybe that's equivalent to running 20 rooms of ASA4 with brand new CRNAs?

"Normal chest x ray".

Next.

Let's just say he is not OCD. More like the "pent sux tube" of radiology.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

1000 studies a day, assume a 8 hour work day, is 125 x rays an hour, or about 29 seconds per study. This is assuming zero phone or other interruption. In my experience, it takes about 15 seconds to pull up a study plus load the dedictation template and to select a template. This leaves about 14 seconds for interpretation. Most radiograph has about 2-3 views, so this leaves about 5 to 7 seconds per view.

Sounds like your "friend" is already faster than an AI.

I also don't have enough anesthesia knowledge to know what would be the safety equivalence to that. Maybe that's equivalent to running 20 rooms of ASA4 with brand new CRNAs?

Stretch it out to 9 or 10 hours and it's not impossible. Though most radiologists I know would shoot themselves churning through that many plain films a day. Regardless of how much they were paid.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

"Normal chest x ray".

Next.

Let's just say he is not OCD. More like the "pent sux tube" of radiology.

With all due respect, do you practice radiology?

As a practioner of radiology, I think at most 50% of ED plain films I read are normal. I think the volume number you gave is highly suspect and is really only doable in one setting: teleradiology, where they pay you 5 bucks to read a plain film. There is a reason why those outfits are crumbling. He is getting cheated out of his professional fee.

Plus, you still haven't address the issue that it will take current state of the art computing LONGER time to read those x rays than a human could.

To be honest, I am disappointed by your response. Like I said, I don't post about that "one anesthesia friend" who makes 3 million a year by managing 50 rooms and just blindly sign off anything midlevels documented or just use the same cook book approach to all cases, which is what you seem to be insinuating.

 

[urge]

With all due respect, do you practice radiology?

To be honest, I am disappointed by your response. Like I said, I don't post about that "one anesthesia friend" who makes 3 million a year by managing 50 rooms and just blindly sign off anything midlevels documented or just use the same cook book approach to all cases, which is what you seem to be insinuating.

1 Do you practice anesthesiology? There is a forum for radiology I assume.

2 Maybe because there is no anesthesiologist making 3M. Probably not even 1M doing OR.