Radiology outlook and its challenges.

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Both McNeeley and Moskowitz agree that if the topic is not addressed and conditions are not improved, radiology could face a recruitment crisis in the years to come.

Moskowitz said leaders should be concerned if they begin to see residents leaving their training programs before completion.

“It’s a huge issue of tremendous importance—it threatens the very viability of radiology,” he said

This is already happening. Worst match in years. Literally nobody from Stanford went into Radiology this year.

And you can bet this is related to the crappy job market. Gotta imagine that it sucks seeing your med school buddies get jobs in nice areas easily while you hear horror stories from the upperclassmen in your program.

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This is already happening. Worst match in years. Literally nobody from Stanford went into Radiology this year.

And you can bet this is related to the crappy job market. Gotta imagine that it sucks seeing your med school buddies get jobs in nice areas easily while you hear horror stories from the upperclassmen in your program.
Aren't you applying to rads though?
 
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Aren't you applying to rads though?

Already matched.

On the flip side Radiology is in a "bear" market (job prospects, income, lifestyle, decreasing competitiveness) and yet its burnout rate is on par with a specialty like EM which is clearly in a "bull market" (great income per hour, job prospects, increasing competitiveness).

Either way you gotta do what you enjoy.
 
Radiology is pedal to the metal type of day. If you are not able to read fast, you will suffer in most settings. There is little to no downtime. It is hard to know ahead of time where you fall.

Additionally, employment is becoming predominant in some markets. Many consolidations, buy outs and takeovers by corporate parasites. As an employee, your security and satisfaction will dwindle. You will have some bumbling administrator telling you about your RVUs, ridiculous complaints and contract renewal time will be super stressful. Try looking for work in a bad market after being terminated or non renewed.
 
I wish Radiology was really not falling apart. It is such an interesting specialty.

Read it today on Diagnostic Imaging:
Radiologists Are Burning Out
June 04, 2015 | Practice Management, PACS and Informatics
By Loren Bonner

Radiologists are among the top 10 most burned out physicians, according to Medscape’s 2015 Physician Lifestyle Report. In seventh place—right behind internal medicine, general surgery, and infectious diseases—the report found that 49% of radiologists felt burned out. The figure is a significant increase from last year’s Physician Lifestyle Report, where radiology ranked low on the list at number 18.


Although it’s difficult to predict who might be at risk, radiologists are not immune to burnout despite radiology’s reputation as a lifestyle specialty. And if the Medscape 2015 Physician Lifestyle Report is any indication, it’s an issue that is bubbling to the surface at a rapid clip.

“Unique aspects of our profession, such as its relatively isolated and sedentary nature, might predispose some radiologists to burnout,” said Michael F. McNeeley, MD, a fellow in the University of Washington’s department of radiology.

The Medscape report defines burnout as a loss of enthusiasm for work, feelings of cynicism, and a low sense of personal accomplishment.

Isolation—Never an Effective Model
"You can’t chop away in a room just reading images without losing interest in what you are doing,” said John Cronan, MD, chairman of the department of diagnostic imaging at Brown University’s Alpert Medical School and radiologist-in-chief at Rhode Island Hospital.

Isolation was never an issue for radiologists before PACS. In fact, during the days of film, the radiology department was one of the busiest places in a hospital. Today, however, most radiologists read studies in isolated cubicles. This isolation has been synchronized with decreased reimbursement as well, according to Cronan.

“We are motivated to read more and take advantage of not being interrupted by other doctors,” said Cronan. “Thinking that was good, it has led to total isolation, deprivation and radiologists becoming burned out.”Cronan calls it the efficiency model.
Although PACS has led to many positive gains for radiology and medicine as a whole, at the same time, it has left radiologists with diminished support, fewer professional relationships, and feelings of isolation and loneliness.
At Rhode Island Hospital, Cronan came up with a simple intervention to help try to alleviate the problem.
“We weren’t going to get the referring physicians back but we could cluster the doctors and radiologists together in an open room,” said Cronan.
They started small by breaking down a wall that separated the reading stations of body CT and body ultrasound. Now it’s one big room they call the body room.
“Some interchange and socialization during the day has been huge,” said Cronan.
At the same time, the hospital’s emergency department needed to increase its capacity. Instead of having another radiologist help read ER studies in a different location, Cronan suggested physically putting the attending physicians and residents in the ER together, which has also been successful, especially among radiologists who would rather avoid ER rotations because of the isolation.
Most recently under Cronan’s direction, Rhode Island Hospital has combined diagnostic and screening mammography radiologists in the same room, as well as neurology and spine MR.
“I have come to the conclusion that we have a higher job satisfaction when people work together—and they like working together as a team,” said Cronan.

Contributing Factors
According to the 2014 American Medical Group Association (AMGA) 27th Annual Medical Group Compensation and Financial Survey, which was also discussed at RSNA 2014, relative value unit (RVU) increased at an even higher rate than compensation for radiologists. RVU rates, which are the primary measure of a physician’s productivity, set reimbursement by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS).

The study found that RVUs for interventional radiologists increased by 5.8% and by 7.2% for diagnostic radiologists. According to RSNA, the rise represents one of the highest in any specialty, except for psychiatry.

Coupled with this are changes to the Multiple Procedure Payment Reduction (MPPR) as applied to RVUs. In 2012, when CMS expanded MPPR to include a cut to the professional component, RVUs should have been reduced too, since an additional second study only gets credited for 50% of the RVUs as opposed to 100%. Notably higher RVUs—when the MPPR should have made them lower—signifies radiologists are working even harder.

Of all the factors that could be contributing to burnout among radiologists, the increase in work volume may be the overriding factor, according to Peter Moskowitz, MD, a clinical professor of radiology at Stanford University School of Medicine.

“It seems every year that the number of cases and the daily work volume seems to be getting greater at a time when there is pressure to increase individual work productivity,” said Moskowitz.

He says radiologists’ RVUs are being monitored to the point where some hospital administrators are using RVU output to determine salary and bonuses.

“There is tremendous pressure on radiologists to work more and do it faster and that stress is the major problem,” said Moskowitz.

Without interventions, he said it’s hard to see the situation improving.

Who Might Be Impacted the Most
Moskowitz, who is also founder and executive director of the Center for Professional and Personal Renewal where he coaches physicians on career and life management, said in his 16 years of coaching, radiologists have become his predominant client over the past five years or so.

“It’s becoming more and more of a problem in our field,” he said.

Yet at the same time, he said it’s still the elephant in the room that no one wants to acknowledge. He said the anxiety and depression radiology trainees feel is often not spoken about because many are reluctant to admit they need help in the first place.

Moskowitz cites a particularly high stress rate among radiology trainees, which he has noticed first-hand in many of his radiology residents.

“Burnout is becoming more of a significant issue among trainees in radiology, and if left unaddressed, the natural progression would be that it would start affecting their mood and performance,” said Moskowitz.

McNeeley and his colleagues were the first to look at burnout for radiology trainees. Based on a 2013 study, they found similar levels of burnout among radiologists when compared to internal medicine residents. This correlation signifies something noteworthy because for years radiology has carried a reputation for being a lifestyle specialty.

McNeeley said this could end up misguiding medical students to enter the field for the wrong reasons and perhaps with unreasonable expectations. By the same token, he said it could cause department leaders to underestimate the pressures that their trainees are experiencing and possibly result in a lack of department wellness initiatives that should be in place.

This current situation seems especially worrisome and stressful for radiology trainees. Radiology residents work nights and weekends, take frequent calls, and are not in a position of power, according to Moskowitz.

In addition, they go through a relatively long training period—which includes five years of postgraduate training with fellowships becoming virtually obligatory; they are hit with medical student debt that can easily exceed $150,000 as they begin residency coupled with difficulty finding affordable housing in urban centers when they begin training; and they face an uncertain job market as well as changes in the board certification process.

Moskowitz said those who are single and without the added income from a working spouse are especially susceptible to such financial stress.

“Over time, this financial stress takes a toll,” said Moskowitz.

Both McNeeley and Moskowitz agree that if the topic is not addressed and conditions are not improved, radiology could face a recruitment crisis in the years to come.

Moskowitz said leaders should be concerned if they begin to see residents leaving their training programs before completion.

“It’s a huge issue of tremendous importance—it threatens the very viability of radiology,” he said

- See more at: http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/pr...rememberme=1&ts=05062015#sthash.0XUmThTx.dpuf

Being isolated from annoying patients and clinicians and being able to sit down and enjoy my coffee and bagel are some of the best aspects of the field. For some, it's a downside. For others like me, it's an upside. If you like to be left alone to do your work and you don't want to be running around like a chicken with its head cut off or stand in one spot for 6 hours, radiology is the field for you. I already knew that it would be this way and I have no regrets about the field. It's really the best field in medicine. There are so many different ways to practice. You can be a clinician in IR or be isolated if you want. You can do no procedures to some or do a lot if them.

The job market is not as bad as the whiners complain about. Every fellow graduating with me had offers by March. I did 11 interviews (that's all I had time for) and had 6 offers to choose from. I chose my job by November of fellowship year. So you can make up your mind.
 
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Being isolated from annoying patients and clinicians and being able to sit down and enjoy my coffee and bagel are some of the best aspects of the field. For some, it's a downside. For others like me, it's an upside. If you like to be left alone to do your work and you don't want to be running around like a chicken with its head cut off or stand in one spot for 6 hours, radiology is the field for you. I already knew that it would be this way and I have no regrets about the field. It's really the best field in medicine. There are so many different ways to practice. You can be a clinician in IR or be isolated if you want. You can do no procedures to some or do a lot if them.

The job market is not as bad as the whiners complain about. Every fellow graduating with me had offers by March. I did 11 interviews (that's all I had time for) and had 6 offers to choose from. I chose my job by November of fellowship year. So you can make up your mind.

I am so happy with have people like you and shark on here. Gives us hope!
 
You are not isolated from annoying clinicians. They will come down and annoy you and even complain about your reports. Patients yes, unless you do mamms or IR.

If you are in a typical radiology setting, instead of running around like a chicken with its head cut off, you will be sitting around, mired in a constant non stop stream of studies, interruptions, and phone calls. No downtime. No breaks. Like I said, better be fast or you will have trouble in this field.

The job market is better for those who are flexible with regards to location, money, specialty, employee position etc. Those who need to stay in a popular area will have it worst.
 
You are not isolated from annoying clinicians. They will come down and annoy you and even complain about your reports. Patients yes, unless you do mamms or IR.

If you are in a typical radiology setting, instead of running around like a chicken with its head cut off, you will be sitting around, mired in a constant non stop stream of studies, interruptions, and phone calls. No downtime. No breaks. Like I said, better be fast or you will have trouble in this field.

The job market is better for those who are flexible with regards to location, money, specialty, employee position etc. Those who need to stay in a popular area will have it worst.

Fortunately at my place, we don't get many visits from the clinicians. With PACS, anyone can see the images from anywhere. So you actually see fewer clinicians today than in the past.

As for the constant stream of studies, that's the reality of medicine. Do you want less work and hence less income? You can find that. In primary care, they want you to see a patient every 15 minutes. Even in derm, people are surprised that those guys are seeing 60 or more patients a day. Once I get into my groove, I can slam studies home left and right. When you are busy, the hours fly by fast. You also want to be in a fair and democratic group with reasonable partnership track. Not all jobs are good.

So like I said, I think there are lots of whiners out there, always thinking that the grass is greener on the other side. Every field has pros and cons. I've been around these forums for more than a decade and I believe that I am familiar with the challenges of pretty much every medical specialty. You have to decide what is the best fit for you based on your interests and abilities.
 
A few points that I want to mention as a radiologist in private practice.

1- Hospital takeover and employment, group merger, ....: This is a global problem in all medicine. The most common group to become hospital employees are internists, family doctors and general surgeons. You know why? because the hospital can easily control the referrals by making these people employees. I agree that becoming employee is not good. But it is that global trend in all parts of medicine except for probably derm, ophto and few other fields. It is less common in radiology than many other fields.

To the people who complain, do you think hospitals are only hard on radiology employees and they will take it easy for ED doctors, internists, surgeons, oncologists, .... Don't you think they will measure the RVUs of oncologists? Don't you think they will push ED doctors to see more patients and surgeons to do more OR cases?

2- Selection bias and expectations (about whining and complaints): The group of people who has applied to radiology compared to let's say Neurosurgery. Radiology is one of the fields that medical students have the most wrong impression about. When medical students apply to radiology and even the junior residents, expect an 8-5 cush job. When the same people enter private practice they see a totally different world. You have to work hard. On there hand medical students who apply to neurosurgery expect a harsh life-style. So they will be happy with whatever job they get after residency even if it is 1:3 call and they get called in every time. You know, it is all about expectations.

To paraphrase things, the number of lazy personalities are more in radiology compared to surgery. This translates into much more complainers when they see radiology is a 7/24 hour service and not 8-5.

3- Online surveys about burnout: What people say is way different than who the behave. Believe me. Your survey showed ER has similar burnout to radiology. This is the exact opposite of what you see in real world. The same people who complain about being burnt out, work their a$$ off to the age of 70. I have seen very few surgeons, ED doctors or ICU doctors working at the age of 70. However, a 60-70 year old radiologist working is not uncommon.

long story short, though people complain about burnout in online SURVEYS ON PAPER, in practice it seems it is not as bad as what they say. How come all these burnt out radiologists continue to work till the age of 70? If you truly burned out like ED docs or surgeons you would get out. A physician at the age 55 should have enough savings to stop working esp these people who has been through the golden ages of radiology, medicine and economy. Something does not make sense. Don't you think?

4- Job market: Is getting better, but I agree it is not good. The offers are solid. Most people that I know have been managed to find a job in their desirable locations, though not necessarily right after fellowship and also with some compromises. Anyway, if not finding a job in NYC, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco or San Diego exactly right after fellowship is a very big deal to you and you are not willing to make some compromises (working nights, do a second fellowship, do your second favorite fellowship rather than the first one) till you find a stable day job, then go to another field. However, there is not guarantee that those fields won't become saturated by the time you finish training.

5- Speed: I was surprised how much I got faster in the last 3 years. Cranking through studies has become easier now compared to my early days. However, still working as a radiologist is difficult. But isn't this the reason we get paid well? If you know any other job that you can relax and get paid, good for you. Go for it. Don't waste your time in medicine.
 
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Radiology is one of the fields that medical students have the most wrong impression about. When medical students apply to radiology and even the junior residents, expect an 8-5 cush job.

Is there another specialty in medicine that has such a wide gulf between private practice and academics? Academic medicine is slower paced in pretty much all fields, but the difference in radiology is like night and day. Learning about radiology is already so difficult for medical students unless one actively seeks it out. And then students, residents, and - to a lesser extent - fellows are exposed to a workflow and pace largely absent from university hospitals. It's a great recipe for making sure reality and expectations don't overlap.
 
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Is there another specialty in medicine that has such a wide gulf between private practice and academics? Academic medicine is slower paced in pretty much all fields, but the difference in radiology is like night and day. Learning about radiology is already so difficult for medical students unless one actively seeks it out. And then students, residents, and - to a lesser extent - fellows are exposed to a workflow and pace largely absent from university hospitals. It's a great recipe for making sure reality and expectations don't overlap.

Exactly.

But even in academic centers the impression is wrong because medical students are not actively involved in interpreting studies. Medical students go to radiology rotation at 9 am and leave at 3 pm. They see the one hour lunch break and morning or afternoon coffee break of radiology attendings. They don't see what happens at 3 am when the oncology fellow is sleeping but the radiology resident is cranking through head, face, c-spine, T spine, l-spine, chest, abdomen, pelvis CT and X-rays of the entire extremities of trauma. The same medical student goes to oncology rotation and has to be there from 6 am to 6 pm and does all the scutwork. So he thinks radiology is much easier that oncology.

The workflow in my private practice is about 3 times busier than my fellowship, though I am in a very busy pp. I could never imagine to be able to read so many studies, but I can. No easy but doable. Some people say that in academics half of the time is spend reading out, so reading twice as many studies is easier in private practice. But don't forget that the read out sessions with attendings are sort of break time.

Keeping with the high pace of private practice is not for everyone. If someone can not do it, they can either join academics or VA or Kaiser system. These are much slower practice setups.
 
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Keeping with the high pace of private practice is not for everyone. If someone can not do it, they can either join academics or VA or Kaiser system. These are much slower practice setups.[/QUOTE]

Agree. Problem is that before the rad market went down, you could easily switch. Now if you are unhappy, it will be difficult to get a VA or academic job, especially if you do not want to uproot your family.

Additionally, at least in my experience, there are many bad non career jobs out there. The 7 on nights/7 off model is not sustainable and there have been many recent jobs like this advertised. I have noticed many private groups offering employee jobs particularly around metro areas. Than there are the pseudopartnerships out there and churn and burn revolving door type practices. It is treacherous out there. Best to know someone inside the group before you join or talk to all who left in the last 5 years. You do not have to be a bad radiologist to have a bad experience or to be let go.
 
Thank you so much to all the radiologists for sharing their wisdom and experiences.
I was wondering, as an entering second year medical student, I'm confused on which subjects to really know well....my interest in radiology almost makes my clinical medicine course kind of unnecessary for a radiology skillset but I know I will need it for my prelim year.

What subjects do you think are most helpful for preparing for radiology? Anatomic anatomy, systems pathology, physiology? Thank you!
 
Thank you so much to all the radiologists for sharing their wisdom and experiences.
I was wondering, as an entering second year medical student, I'm confused on which subjects to really know well....my interest in radiology almost makes my clinical medicine course kind of unnecessary for a radiology skillset but I know I will need it for my prelim year.

What subjects do you think are most helpful for preparing for radiology? Anatomic anatomy, systems pathology, physiology? Thank you!

You need to be good at both medicine and surgery to be good at radiology. When you are interpreting images for internal medicine medicine, you need to give a reasonable differential diagnosis. When you are interpreting images for the surgeon, you need to know what they care about and how your interpretation will influence patient management. Even pathology (although I was never good at this) is useful as there is correlation between what you see on radiology with what the pathologists see on slides. You would be doing yourself a disservice if you discounted any facet of training on your way to becoming a radiologist.

Of course, a good anatomy foundation is necessary.
 
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You need to be good at both medicine and surgery to be good at radiology. When you are interpreting images for internal medicine medicine, you need to give a reasonable differential diagnosis. When you are interpreting images for the surgeon, you need to know what they care about and how your interpretation will influence patient management. Even pathology (although I was never good at this) is useful as there is correlation between what you see on radiology with what the pathologists see on slides. You would be doing yourself a disservice if you discounted any facet of training on your way to becoming a radiologist.

Of course, a good anatomy foundation is necessary.
Many people here have said time and time again that internship does nothing for them in terms of being a good radiologist. So I disagree with your whole premise.
 
Many people here have said time and time again that internship does nothing for them in terms of being a good radiologist. So I disagree with your whole premise.

Disagree with you.

I agree with Corrion. A solid foundation in medicine and surgery is the key.

If you want to give a good interpretation on a liver MRI, you need to know all the medical and surgical pathologies from bread and butter ones like cirrhosis and portal hypertension to more rare ones like hemochromatosis and PSC. If you want to give a good quality report on pelvic US you need to know ovarian pathologies like tumors, Ectopic, torsion, endometriosis, hemorrhagic cyst, ... very well.

Internship is useless because you don't learn medicine or surgery in internship. You are a glorified note writer. As a medicine intern all of your time is spent putting insulin sliding scale, correcting electrolytes, writing H&Ps, reordering home medications, .... When was the last time that someone taught an intern the pathophysiology of PSC, its differential diagnosis and its complications? If you read liver MRI, you have to be familiar with all of these as good or better than a GI doctor.
 
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Disagree with you.

I agree with Corrion. A solid foundation in medicine and surgery is the key.

If you want to give a good interpretation on a liver MRI, you need to know all the medical and surgical pathologies from bread and butter ones like cirrhosis and portal hypertension to more rare ones like hemochromatosis and PSC. If you want to give a good quality report on pelvic US you need to know ovarian pathologies like tumors, Ectopic, torsion, endometriosis, hemorrhagic cyst, ... very well.

Internship is useless because you don't learn medicine or surgery in internship. You are a glorified note writer. As a medicine intern all of your time is spent putting insulin sliding scale, correcting electrolytes, writing H&Ps, reordering home medications, .... When was the last time that someone taught an intern the pathophysiology of PSC, its differential diagnosis and its complications? If you read liver MRI, you have to be familiar with all of these as good or better than a GI doctor.

Isn't that the whole point of medical school and radiology residency though? I thought that was inherent in the work of being a good radiologist. I think what you stated is pretty obvious in terms of knowing the differentials. I'm more getting at being very good at medicine - ie knowing pharm, physical exam, H&Ps, interpreting electrolytes, etc. - and surgery - knowing suturing, procedures, etc.

Also Corroin mentioned ANY facet of training which I assume to include things like psych and derm.
 
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Isn't that the whole point of medical school and radiology residency though? I thought that was inherent in the work of being a good radiologist. I think what you stated is pretty obvious in terms of knowing the differentials. I'm more getting at being very good at medicine - ie knowing pharm, physical exam, H&Ps, interpreting electrolytes, etc. - and surgery - knowing suturing, procedures, etc.

Also Corroin mentioned ANY facet of training which I assume to include things like psych and derm.

Probably we both are talking about the same thing.

Medical student training is very useful for some residencies like family medicine, general surgery and ... and radiology is one of them. On the other hand, it is less useful for some other fields like Derm, ophtho, ortho, ...
 
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