Radiology Faculty--Answering Questions/"AMA"

[RadiologyPD]

@RadiologyPD As someone who is trying to figure out what may be the best option to match into a mid tier radiology residency program in the future in which way would you point me in having a higher match of matching in the future: Going to a Caribbean medical school or take my acceptance with a DO school. I have acceptances to both. My grades were not good enough to get into an allopathic school.

Speaking with no personal knowledge or experience, I would say DO is substantially better.

The data presented by Goro seems to corroborate this.

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[Dryad8212]

Speaking with no personal knowledge or experience, I would say DO is substantially better.

The data presented by Goro seems to corroborate this.

I really hate opp though :/. Appreciate it!

 

[Ho0v-man]

@RadiologyPD As someone who is trying to figure out what may be the best option to match into a mid tier radiology residency program in the future in which way would you point me in having a higher match of matching in the future: Going to a Caribbean medical school or take my acceptance with a DO school. I have acceptances to both. My grades were not good enough to get into an allopathic school.

Just to add to this, I know the Carib grads I’ve met have had to work substantially harder for less opportunities for residency in rads. I was very surprised when I did an away at a community program how good the apps of their Carib residents were. They told me straight up they wished they went DO.

 

[LittleFoot]

I really hate opp though :/. Appreciate it!

Most of us hate OMM. It's just a hoop you jump through. DO >>> Carribbean in terms of chances to match Rads. But Allo is also >>> DO in terms of matching.

 

[medacc1111]

Is there a database that has which programs require step 2 to rank? Just got my score back and it’s not what I expected. Mid 240s step

 

[RadiologyPD]

Not that I am aware. My guess is that many programs will use your Step 1 alone this year.

 

[LittleFoot]

Even if I got a 150k scholarship from the Caribbean school?

DO school is 55k a yr. and the Caribbean is 67k but 150 k tuition off.

I mean cheaper is cheaper but it still doesn't help your chances of matching Rads. If I were set on Rads, I wouldn't go Caribbean. If you're open to primary care, then that's entirely different.

 

[qwertythrowaway]

I mean cheaper is cheaper but it still doesn't help your chances of matching Rads. If I were set on Rads, I wouldn't go Caribbean. If you're open to primary care, then that's entirely different.

there are hidden costs of attending carribbean. everybody enters med school thinking "i'll be top of the class". at least at a DO school, you don't need to be the top of the class to graduate and become a doctor. you absolutely do in the carribbean. the only reason they have decent step pass rates is bc they won't even let anyone take step until they have passed an internal exam (true at ross and SGU). a sizeable chunk never even are allowed to sit for the usmle because they cannot pass the internal exam!! after 6+ mos of studying! these students effectively pay tuition during M1/M2 and have nothing to show for it when they can't pass the internal test (and cannot even attempt the usmle). the cost may be cheaper up front, but that is quite the gamble. a DO school has an incentive to graduate you, the Carribbean schools do not. the carrib schools also do not have the rotation sites and space for all the students they accept to make it to M3/M4. Do not be pennywise pound foolish.

also, don't forget the expenses of living on an island. and the expenses of having to move (sometimes month to month) during clinical years back in the states. i know multiple average DO students who have done very well on the rads IV trail this cycle. take the DO acceptance, this is a no-brainer.

 

[eartwj]

Hi @RadiologyPD , I recently stumbled across this thread and i appreciate the gems and consistency you’ve given to it! I just wanted your opinion on something.

situation- I have a professionalism mark that forced me to repeat my 3rd year a couple rotations in (asked patient out for coffee via social media….huge lapse of judgement). They allowed me to stay given I complete hippaa training again and attend a 6 counseling sessions. I feel remorseful for my actions and have learned from the experience, but I can’t help to think of how detrimental my actions are to the future.

3rd year US MD
Step 1- 235
Clerkships- HP and H mix (mostly HP)
Step 2-pending
EC- 1-2 e-board positions in couple groups, substitute taught during time off
Research- 1 project/publication

I recently became interested in radiology and have told my situation to the radiology advisor at my school (we don’t have PD, as my school doesn’t have a residency program). She said it will be a hindrance, but things could work out. I wanted to get a radiology PD’s input as my school doesn’t have a radiology residency program. From a radiology PD perspective will my situation hinder me completely from getting interviews/matching, if not what can I do to be successful?

 

[RadiologyPD]

My gut reaction is that it will be a hurdle, but one you can overcome. Things can work out.

 

[eartwj]

My gut reaction is that it will be a hurdle, but one you can overcome. Things can work out.

Since it is a hurdle/red flag, do you think it should be mentioned in my personal statement?

 

[RadiologyPD]

sure--that way there is an opportunity to explain in case they are wavering about giving you an interview--also, then you don't necessarily have to bring it up in the interview unless you want to or they ask you

 

[azn32]

Hi fellow members of the community,

Been a long time lurker here, just wanted to make a post and see if any of you guys can give some honest advice and guidance. I will get straight to the point. I recently received my Step 1/COMLEX 1 score (239/639). Always had a slight interest in radiology and don't get me wrong, I know I don't have the most competitive scores but was wondering:

1. If there are any members here that can shed a light on my chances?
2. Things I can do now to help my chances?

Any advice would be truly appreciated!

 

[yanhoz]

Chances of matching? High. I have very similar scores (+/- 5 points for both) and just matched today. With that being said, apply broadly - I’m talking 80+ places that have a DO on their roster.

What can you do now? Do well on rotations get highly regarded evaluations, which will translate into a strong MSPE. Get 2-3 strong recommendation letters from your core rotations. All three of mine are from first semester of third year, mainly because I didn’t want to be frantically waiting for my LOR writer to submit on time. Another thing you can do (since you’re DO with no home program?), look for places that are accepting visiting students for radiology. Whether that be VSAS or emailing a NEARBY PC/med student coordinator if they’re accepting students or if they can make an exception since you’re close. I would probably wait until late spring of M3 or early M4 to do a radiology rotation but if the opportunity arises, do it earlier. Use the rotation to get an LOR from a radiologist or even hop on any pending projects (usually a case report).

 

[azn32]

Chances of matching? High. I have very similar scores (+/- 5 points for both) and just matched today. With that being said, apply broadly - I’m talking 80+ places that have a DO on their roster.

What can you do now? Do well on rotations get highly regarded evaluations, which will translate into a strong MSPE. Get 2-3 strong recommendation letters from your core rotations. All three of mine are from first semester of third year, mainly because I didn’t want to be frantically waiting for my LOR writer to submit on time. Another thing you can do (since you’re DO with no home program?), look for places that are accepting visiting students for radiology. Whether that be VSAS or emailing a NEARBY PC/med student coordinator if they’re accepting students or if they can make an exception since you’re close. I would probably wait until late spring of M3 or early M4 to do a radiology rotation but if the opportunity arises, do it earlier. Use the rotation to get an LOR from a radiologist or even hop on any pending projects (usually a case report).

Congrats on matching! Must be a great feeling. Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. How many radiology rotations should I aim to apply to and complete M4? I wish I can do one earlier but I have a feeling I won't be able to do one as I finish up M3 since my rotations are pretty time consuming.

How did you go about applying to prelim and transitional year programs? It sounds like transitional year programs are preferable?

Congrats again and thank you for your help!

 

[yanhoz]

Thanks! Just one rotation should be fine.

For Prelim and TYs, I wanted to be near home for at least that one year, so I mainly focused in my home state. But you also have to be smart about it (seeing if there’s a DO on the roster) too, so I did apply broadly but only really in cities I would live in. When researching programs you’ll find that some TYs have Prelim Medicine schedules but are just called TYs. You’ll see when looking for them. You can DM me more questions! I don’t want to hijack this thread

 

[Hippocrates II]

Hi,

I'm a DO student thinking about applying rads. Currently, my only real selling point is my step 1 score (>260) and (hopefully) soon-to-be two radiology-related case reports, though I'm working on getting any rads-related ECs that I can. My question is - does it really benefit me much to even take step 2? It's not required for me to graduate, and I see a lot of programs I'm interested in don't seem to require it to interview/rank students. Would programs still expect me to have taken/passed step 2, even if they indicate it's not a requirement for the interview/ranking aspect of this process? Thank you

 

[Neopolymath]

Hi,

I'm a DO student thinking about applying rads. Currently, my only real selling point is my step 1 score (>260) and (hopefully) soon-to-be two radiology-related case reports, though I'm working on getting any rads-related ECs that I can. My question is - does it really benefit me much to even take step 2? It's not required for me to graduate, and I see a lot of programs I'm interested in don't seem to require it to interview/rank students. Would programs still expect me to have taken/passed step 2, even if they indicate it's not a requirement for the interview/ranking aspect of this process? Thank you

Take step 2. Not taking step 2 is for a subset of MD students.

 

[Hippocrates II]

Take step 2. Not taking step 2 is for a subset of MD students.

Damn. With the way this year is going, I don't think I'm going to do better on Step 2 than I did with Step 1. Would it hurt me to take Step 2 late enough that I get my score after interviewing? Or should I have the score ready by the time they are ranking students?

 

[Neopolymath]

Damn. With the way this year is going, I don't think I'm going to do better on Step 2 than I did with Step 1. Would it hurt me to take Step 2 late enough that I get my score after interviewing? Or should I have the score ready by the time they are ranking students?

Get your score in on time for them to see it while reviewing apps when eras opens. As a DO you need to show you have your **** together. No one is going to care if you drop 10 points from 260. The test is harder than it used to be anyways so a 250 is still a good score on step 2.

 

[r9too]

Get your score in on time for them to see it while reviewing apps when eras opens. As a DO you need to show you have your **** together. No one is going to care if you drop 10 points from 260. The test is harder than it used to be anyways so a 250 is still a good score on step 2.

Agree. Take step 2 early, you'll thank your self you won't have to worry about it late in 4th year when you're ready to graduate, and chances are you'll do great considering your step 1 score.

 

[Bluepineapple3]

For what it’s worth, I agree with the above posts about getting step 2 in early. I applied last cycle, had a 260 step 1 and wanted to wait to take step 2 until things were submitted (also covid cancellations made me delay it). Either way, I wasn’t sure I would replicate step 1, and I didn’t replicate it, scoring 20 points lower on step 2.

Obviosuly I am the exception not the rule in this scenario (with regards to scoring much lower on step 2), which Is why I recommend taking it early. I was worried the whole cycle that schools would eventually see my step 2 score (I sent it after all my interviews were done in January), see the drop off , and rank me lower...maybe they did, maybe they didn’t care after already interviewing me, I don’t know, but I luckily ended up at a great program, but it wasn’t worth the agony of that thought process for months. Show them all your cards, and know that they have all the cards—it’ll give you peace of mind. And I think step 1 matters way more than step 2 still, will change soon though.

 

[aaronrodgers]

During my core IM rotation I had a chief bunny who was functioning as the rabbit on service for two weeks and I got a great LOR from him - how would this be seen by PDs given that he is a chief?

 

[RageQuitter34]

So now that it is confirmed that Step 1 will be P/F on 01/26/2022, does anyone know how much weight/value Step 1 will have for the class of 2023 because there is going to mix of students with a score and some with p/f.

 

[Dr. USMLE]

So now that it is confirmed that Step 1 will be P/F on 01/26/2022, does anyone know how much weight/value Step 1 will have for the class of 2023 because there is going to mix of students with a score and some with p/f.

Most students take the exam the summer after their second year so should be a mostly level playing field.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

@RadiologyPD I heard anecdotally today that program directors may be able to see a time stamp of when students submitted their application for reviews, and that this may affect their standing, is this true? What I mean is, if ERAS opens for us to fill applications September 1st, and the first day programs can start looking at applications is September 29th, can they see that a student submitted their app on say September 15th? I ask because I will be doing a IR Sub-I between August and September and was hoping to get a LoR out of it, but it may be a moot point if it will actively harm me to wait and submit my application on September 27th or 28th.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

@RadiologyPD I heard anecdotally today that program directors may be able to see a time stamp of when students submitted their application for reviews, and that this may affect their standing, is this true? What I mean is, if ERAS opens for us to fill applications September 1st, and the first day programs can start looking at applications is September 29th, can they see that a student submitted their app on say September 15th? I ask because I will be doing a IR Sub-I between August and September and was hoping to get a LoR out of it, but it may be a moot point if it will actively harm me to wait and submit my application on September 27th or 28th.

This was actually talked about at my school for a good amount of time by the deans. According to them, it does NOT matter if you submit your app on September 1 vs. September 28. But you don't want to submit it on the 29th or after.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

This was actually talked about at my school for a good amount of time by the deans. According to them, it does NOT matter if you submit your app on September 1 vs. September 28. But you don't want to submit it on the 29th or after.

That’s what I’ve heard in other places. Just had a mentor mention to me that he got significantly more fellowship interviews than a close friend of his who had very similar stats. Only difference was that he sent his app the day it opened, and his friend did not.

 

[SeisK]

@RadiologyPD I heard anecdotally today that program directors may be able to see a time stamp of when students submitted their application for reviews, and that this may affect their standing, is this true? What I mean is, if ERAS opens for us to fill applications September 1st, and the first day programs can start looking at applications is September 29th, can they see that a student submitted their app on say September 15th? I ask because I will be doing a IR Sub-I between August and September and was hoping to get a LoR out of it, but it may be a moot point if it will actively harm me to wait and submit my application on September 27th or 28th.

A program that does this is not one I’d want to end up at anyway, I don’t care where they’re ranked.

 

[RadiologyPD]

@RadiologyPD I heard anecdotally today that program directors may be able to see a time stamp of when students submitted their application for reviews, and that this may affect their standing, is this true? What I mean is, if ERAS opens for us to fill applications September 1st, and the first day programs can start looking at applications is September 29th, can they see that a student submitted their app on say September 15th? I ask because I will be doing a IR Sub-I between August and September and was hoping to get a LoR out of it, but it may be a moot point if it will actively harm me to wait and submit my application on September 27th or 28th.

For radiology residency, timing of submission before applications are available to programs doesn't matter at all. Let me repeat--not at all. I can't imagine any program actually records that information or tracks it--would be useless.

For fellowship, the situation in radiology for some types of fellowships is completely different. Fellowship programs swoop in to fill their interview slots (and, in some situations for fellowships outside the Match--such as Abdomen fellowships--fill those spots) as soon as possible. There isn't a uniform "release date" for fellowship application materials.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

For radiology residency, timing of submission before applications are available to programs doesn't matter at all. Let me repeat--not at all. I can't imagine any program actually records that information or tracks it--would be useless.

For fellowship, the situation in radiology for some types of fellowships is completely different. Fellowship programs swoop in to fill their interview slots (and, in some situations for fellowships outside the Match--such as Abdomen fellowships--fill those spots) as soon as possible. There isn't a uniform "release date" for fellowship application materials.

I appreciate the response! Thank you!

 

[Dave1980]

@RadiologyPD Are you in a highly academic practice? Are you happy with your compensation?

I interviewed at 3 academic places and the salaries offered ranged from 40-80% of what I make at the job I ended up taking which is a fairly work-life friendly place with salaries to reflect that. It kind of seemed like the more prestigious the hospital the less they paid and couldn't believe anyone actually takes those salaries.

 

[RadiologyPD]

@RadiologyPD Are you in a highly academic practice? Are you happy with your compensation?

I interviewed at 3 academic places and the salaries offered ranged from 40-80% of what I make at the job I ended up taking which is a fairly work-life friendly place with salaries to reflect that. It kind of seemed like the more prestigious the hospital the less they paid and couldn't believe anyone actually takes those salaries.

Yes, my practice is highly academic and I'm satisfied with my compensation.

In general, you "eat what you kill" in private practice (assuming you are not an employee)--you get paid more if you read more studies.

In academics, you generally don't get paid as much because you don't actually interpret as many examinations. Your work consists of interpreting films + doing academic stuff. The academic stuff doesn't bring in much income (if any). Moreover, you are generally an employee of the institution.

You have to make sure you are comparing the full package, of course. There can be pension and insurance benefits that might not be present in the private group. Academic groups can provide more security in terms of the radiology group not "losing contracts", etc. There must also be some value to you from the academic rewards, otherwise there's no point in doing academics.

Academics at 80% of private practice sounds pretty good to me, but I like the academic rewards. YMMV.

 

[Dave1980]

Yes, my practice is highly academic and I'm satisfied with my compensation.

In general, you "eat what you kill" in private practice (assuming you are not an employee)--you get paid more if you read more studies.

In academics, you generally don't get paid as much because you don't actually interpret as many examinations. Your work consists of interpreting films + doing academic stuff. The academic stuff doesn't bring in much income (if any). Moreover, you are generally an employee of the institution.

You have to make sure you are comparing the full package, of course. There can be pension and insurance benefits that might not be present in the private group. Academic groups can provide more security in terms of the radiology group not "losing contracts", etc. There must also be some value to you from the academic rewards, otherwise there's no point in doing academics.

Academics at 80% of private practice sounds pretty good to me, but I like the academic rewards. YMMV.

The 80% salary place worked their rads pretty hard from what I could tell. They were overseeing residents and fellows as well as dictating quickly and it seemed like they were churning through an unbelievable amount of cases.

In my experience except for telerad most groups aren't actually "eat what you kill" because that brings along a whole host of issues regarding cherry picking cases and the inherent RVU advantage neuro and breast get over everyone else. I know one PP that is truly an eat what you kill place and it works for them but that's the only group I've ever heard of pull it off.

 

[RadiologyPD]

I guess what I meant by "eat what you kill" is that for the entire practice, the collective radiologists get paid based on the collective work that is done. For the most part--I do know of a few elite practices that have revenue streams outside of film interpretation related to practice management, etc. If there is substantial income from the technical component (meaning the rads collectively own the means of production), then there is concomitant collective risk (meaning you could really lose some money).

So if a radiologist in PP is making 75th percentile salaries, then they are generally generating 75th percentile RVU.

In academics, a whole host of other factors come into play.

 

[Hopefully_a_successful_MD]

So my wife is attending an MD/PhD program on the east coast (state school) while I attend a southwestern MD program (also a state school.) We're both rising M2s, so I don't know if I'm too far ahead with my future (plus, no couples matching.) So far I'm seriously considering rads as my top field to go into. My wife's school has a pretty good radiology program with other programs that are 60-120 minutes away. As you can see, I'm kind of locked into a program (really do not want to do more distance after medical school.)

Do you have any advice for people in my situation that differs from others who are applying to programs in different parts of the country? We own property in the city in which she's attending school, so I'm hoping my wife attending the MD/PhD program + other family members nearby would be a good selling point as to "I really want to be here" lol.

If it matters, I have all passes in my pre-clinicals (just P/F system, no honors pre-clinical.) I'm working on a research project that will land me 1st author if I successfully publish (not in the field of radiology.) Still unable to shadow currently due to COVID.

Thank you for everything!

 

[RadiologyPD]

A few thoughts.

First, I would like to take your question as an opportunity to hammer home a point I've made before regarding "local ties". I really think applicants need to understand where this is relevant and why it is relevant, because it seems like applicants just have this idea that programs somehow want to fill their spots with people who are local.

As an applicant, think about what the program wants. The program wants to fill (no unmatched positions) with "the best" applicants (meaning, best for that program) that the program can match.

Period. End of story. At face value, programs could care less if you grew up next door or across the country if they had unlimited resources to recruit everyone.

Now the nuance about how local ties fits in: Especially in these virtual interview times, programs find that they can only really interview maybe maximum 20x applicants per position (that would be a lot!...but I've seen it). So if a program has 7 spots, they can only really consider/interview 140 people MAX (if that...probably less). But because radiology applicants usually send out a s**t-ton more applications than they really need to, programs invariably get 80-100 applicants per spot. So that program with 7 spots has to weed out maybe 550 applicants.

Most of these applicants are overapplying based on their credentials--many are going to match in their top 5-10. If all the programs only interviewed "the top 140", there would be a lot of unfilled programs.

The program that only factors in strength of applicant without some consideration of local ties (based on whatever that program favors) is a program that has huge brand in a geographically favorable location--there are such programs, and the local tie factor is not really a factor for them. Let me be clear--Hopkins does not care that you grew up in Maryland vs. growing up in Texas. UCSF doesn't care that you are a wine enthusiast, and UCSD doesn't care that you know how to surf.

On the other hand, there are very good programs that definitely need to consider geographical ties. Washington University and Mayo Rochester come to mind in this regard--both incredibly strong residencies, but both recognizing that not everyone can be or wants to be in St. Louis or Rochester, MN.

So, the answer to your question--"do you have any advice for people who are targeting a particular program"--depends a little bit on the strength of that particular program. Outside of the big names, PDs are definitely going to be more excited about asking you to interview with them if you demonstrate more excitement about being there, especially if the story sounds legit and not some phony way for an applicant to just rack up more interviews.

Hence, my advice:
1. Reach out early to the programs you are most interested in (especially the program where your wife is MD/PhD) and explain the situation and why it means you are targeting that program. Give all the reasons--wife, family, house, etc.
2. If you are a great student on paper, and the program is not a tiny program, leave it at that--keep in touch, maybe stop by when you go visit your wife. Don't screw up your great paper credentials by giving them a reason not to like you.
3. If you are an average student/applicant on paper, do more. Try to do an away at the place, then show up early and stay late every day. Don't be a phony, but be likeable to the residents of the program.
4. If you are a marginal student/applicant on paper, do even more. Take some months or a year off to do research at the place. Join the student organization of the specialty that the PD is in, and seek out the PDs career advice.

Now, there is a fine line between showing enthusiasm and being a stalker--don't be a stalker. It will take some Emotional Intelligence on your part to navigate this.

Good luck.

 

[7331poas]

1. Reach out early to the programs you are most interested in (especially the program where your wife is MD/PhD) and explain the situation and why it means you are targeting that program. Give all the reasons--wife, family, house, etc.

Thank you. Should this process of "reaching out" occur before ERAS submission? After their first interview wave? etc.

I have a couple programs in my home state I specifically want to interview at. However, I have gotten mixed opinions, even from PD panels, whether reaching out and essentially asking for an interview will help my chances. Should I get an alumnus to call for me?

 

[RadiologyPD]

Get in their heads early.

Keep in mind that PDs want to interview candidates who meet their metrics for potential success who are excited to come to the program for training, but don't want to be pestered by candidates who aren't good fits.

So why not just let the PD know you are targeting his/her program and ask the PD if you are a good fit?

Showing interest doesn't make a candidate who is a good fit become a poor fit. It might reveal to you earlier in the process that the PD sees you as a poor fit--which you can try to fix, or you can accept and adjust your expectations. I see no harm in doing so early. When I was PD (remember, I no longer am), I had plenty of people reach out, some who weren't a great fit. I had no problem letting them know their status.

Here's what I would do:
1. Once you've really decided you are going to be a radiologist, and you've really decided that you are targeting a program, set of programs, or geographical area, then be clear about these decisions in your communications.
2. Send an inquiry to the PD and cc the PC with a brief elevator pitch that you are going to be applying for radiology positions and you have established that the PD's program is very high on your list. Explain why this is true (it better be legit). Include your CV, highlights, and ask if your paper stats are in line with the expectations/desires of the program.

One important point--if you are simply "spraying and praying", this does NOT help and could hurt. Also, if you are an IMG, definitely have an advocate do this for you. I understand and empathize with the plight of IMG students who need to make an impression, but I would be very rich if I got a dollar for every IMG student who sent me an interest letter via email, for our program that was out of reach because we had so many competitive US grads applying from schools with which we were familiar. We had some great IMG candidates who we ranked highly, but you have to be realistic about your application in the context of the program. And please, I say this with all due respect and transparency, so don't flame me.

At this point, the PD and PC may:
1. Blow you off completely--ok, so you've learned something about this program. That doesn't take the program out of consideration but it's a data point you should not ignore. Be sure it isn't because you had the wrong contact information (call the PC), but if it's a hard blow off, then readjust your expectations regarding this program. Believe me, had you been an outstanding candidate, the PD would have not blown you off, unless the PD is organizationally challenged and can't keep up with electronic communication. So you've learned something--you aren't an attractive candidate for this program on paper. Or the PD is going to suck at sending electronic communications to your potential employers. Don't take it personally, and in my experience, some of the best residents/fellows/radiologists didn't seem attractive as applicants to residency. You can still apply to that program, but doesn't bode well.
2. Tell you that they exclusively recruit through the application/interview process and they can't go any further than that--ok, not a blow off, because maybe this PD/PC get a ton of inquiries. I certainly did not try to recruit everyone who reached out to me, though I never blew them off. If you've included your CV and the best "elevator pitch", recognize that this wasn't enough to excite them. Thank them for the response and ask politely how you can learn more about the program through their residents or other avenues. Tailor your personal statement to them when you apply and re-contact them electronically RIGHT BEFORE they can access ERAS applications that you thank them for their earlier response that you should apply via ERAS, remain very excited about the program, and look forward to their review of your application. (highlighted for #3 below).
3. Be intrigued by your potential application and perhaps give you avenues to discuss further or discuss with residents, etc--ok, you have now gotten their attention. Even if nothing actually transpires, then do the same as highlighted in bold in #2. If you start a conversation or actually get interest from them, game on.
4. Start to actually recruit you--ok, they consider you a very competitive candidate. Great.

In life, you get nothing without going for it. So go for it--you can only "blow it" if you have no emotional intelligence about how you go about it. Think about this like you would in trying to catch someone's attention for a date--don't be creepy, but how are you going to make the connection without making the connection?

 

[giguerex35]

@RadiologyPD hey i havent read through the whole thread so it was answered already just let me know but I am about to start third year and have been looking into rads (DR) as a potential fit for me. Could you talk about tele-radiology jobs and how exactly that works. I always hear people joke about reading images in your pajamas but I have no idea the process of getting a tele-radiology job, how you are sent images, if you ever have to be in the office/hospital or if it is all at home, ect. If you dont mind could you explain just how exactly this works, including if these jobs are common or hard to get as well. thank you

 

[Gilakend]

Clinical med student making my schedule for next year, interested in surg subspecialty and with all of the "required" surg subspecialty stuff (research, sub-I, aways, etc.) I have almost no time for electives in other specialties. I'm not super interested in rads right now, but it is almost certainly my what I'm interested in 2nd most. Would shadowing give me the same/similar experience or idea as I would get on an elective? Or should I try to rearrange my schedule in a way that lets me take an elective to be certain?

 

[RadiologyPD]

@RadiologyPD hey i havent read through the whole thread so it was answered already just let me know but I am about to start third year and have been looking into rads (DR) as a potential fit for me. Could you talk about tele-radiology jobs and how exactly that works. I always hear people joke about reading images in your pajamas but I have no idea the process of getting a tele-radiology job, how you are sent images, if you ever have to be in the office/hospital or if it is all at home, ect. If you dont mind could you explain just how exactly this works, including if these jobs are common or hard to get as well. thank you

Not personally well versed in how this exactly works (which I am sure differs between various gigs), but at a very high level you log into your workstation (wearing whatever you want) when you work and pull studies off a list. The list is probably tailored to your specific abilities/desires for the type of cases you read. There are processes in place to ensure you don't just cherry-pick easier studies, and your work is subject to some quality metrics that impact your pay. You get paid for what you do by the company, which is some fraction of what the company gets paid by the insurer.

I'm sure there are other threads that will go over this in more detail, and happy to let others answer more fully in this thread, though this isn't exactly a PD-type question.

 

[RadiologyPD]

Clinical med student making my schedule for next year, interested in surg subspecialty and with all of the "required" surg subspecialty stuff (research, sub-I, aways, etc.) I have almost no time for electives in other specialties. I'm not super interested in rads right now, but it is almost certainly my what I'm interested in 2nd most. Would shadowing give me the same/similar experience or idea as I would get on an elective? Or should I try to rearrange my schedule in a way that lets me take an elective to be certain?

When you say you are a clinical med student, I guess I'm assuming you are making the transition from M2 to M3. The reason for this assumption is that radiology is so integral to taking care of patients in hospitals these days that the entire M3 year is a way to "understand" what radiologists do to test that experience--because you'll essentially be relying on their interpretations to manage your patients. Your question comes off a little like you haven't yet done that M3 year.

You'll have plenty of opportunity to "get exposed" to radiology in the M3 year if you keep a mental awareness how you and your teams are using radiology and interacting with radiologists when you are on other services. For all the lip service that some subspecialists give to how they "interpret their own images", for anything beyond focused stuff (like "does my patient have a fracture where they hurt?") or simple stuff (like "is the endotracheal tube/feeding tube/orthopedic hardware/venous catheter in the right place"), you will gain some understanding of the role of radiologists through your clinical year by seeing how they impact care. By showing some interest even when you aren't on a radiology elective, you could probably engage with radiology residents/fellows/some attendings to better understand what they do.

But admittedly that won't give you a clear understanding of the joys and frustrations of being a radiologist. To some degree, picking any specialty is a leap of faith based on some introspection about what you like and don't like in medicine. Shadowing for a couple of days, albeit boring as watching grass grow, is fine to get a sense of a radiologist's day, recognizing that you'll still need to make that leap of faith. A month elective layers on a component of "learning" which makes the observation more interesting but will come with a set of learning goals/objectives which will occupy your attention away from the specific question regarding "do I want to do this?"

More comments not directly pertinent to your question below:

Outside of academic activities and administrative activities, what physicians do is repetitive around a "fundamental activity":
1. Most radiologists' fundamental activity: Review patient images with variable amounts of access to history to make conclusions about the probability of specific diseases, do a procedure if that has been requested and is indicated, and communicate impressions or procedural findings in a written report that may articulate suggestions on what to do next. Each interaction is worth between 0.2 to 2.0 RVU (that's just a wild guess of the interquartile range, or IQR)--repeat this over and over to get to about 8800 RVUs/year for the median radiologist.
2. Non-radiologists' fundamental activity: Review/do patient history/physical to make conclusions about the probability of specific diseases, do or schedule the patient for a procedure if that is indicated, and communicate impressions or procedural findings in a written report that may outline next steps. Each interaction is worth between 0.25 to 4.0 RVU (that's just a wild guess of the interquartile range, or IQR)--repeat this over and over to get to about 4000 to 10,000 RVUs/year (depending on the specialty).

Outside any actual procedure, the interquartile range for non-radiologists is probably 5-20 minutes for each "interaction". Outside any actual procedure, the interquartile range for radiologists is probably 1-10 minutes for each "interaction".

Decide which fundamental activity you want to do over and over and over.

 

[Gilakend]

When you say you are a clinical med student, I guess I'm assuming you are making the transition from M2 to M3. The reason for this assumption is that radiology is so integral to taking care of patients in hospitals these days that the entire M3 year is a way to "understand" what radiologists do to test that experience--because you'll essentially be relying on their interpretations to manage your patients. Your question comes off a little like you haven't yet done that M3 year.

You'll have plenty of opportunity to "get exposed" to radiology in the M3 year if you keep a mental awareness how you and your teams are using radiology and interacting with radiologists when you are on other services. For all the lip service that some subspecialists give to how they "interpret their own images", for anything beyond focused stuff (like "does my patient have a fracture where they hurt?") or simple stuff (like "is the endotracheal tube/feeding tube/orthopedic hardware/venous catheter in the right place"), you will gain some understanding of the role of radiologists through your clinical year by seeing how they impact care. By showing some interest even when you aren't on a radiology elective, you could probably engage with radiology residents/fellows/some attendings to better understand what they do.

But admittedly that won't give you a clear understanding of the joys and frustrations of being a radiologist. To some degree, picking any specialty is a leap of faith based on some introspection about what you like and don't like in medicine. Shadowing for a couple of days, albeit boring as watching grass grow, is fine to get a sense of a radiologist's day, recognizing that you'll still need to make that leap of faith. A month elective layers on a component of "learning" which makes the observation more interesting but will come with a set of learning goals/objectives which will occupy your attention away from the specific question regarding "do I want to do this?"

More comments not directly pertinent to your question below:

Outside of academic activities and administrative activities, what physicians do is repetitive around a "fundamental activity":
1. Most radiologists' fundamental activity: Review patient images with variable amounts of access to history to make conclusions about the probability of specific diseases, do a procedure if that has been requested and is indicated, and communicate impressions or procedural findings in a written report that may articulate suggestions on what to do next. Each interaction is worth between 0.2 to 2.0 RVU (that's just a wild guess of the interquartile range, or IQR)--repeat this over and over to get to about 8800 RVUs/year for the median radiologist.
2. Non-radiologists' fundamental activity: Review/do patient history/physical to make conclusions about the probability of specific diseases, do or schedule the patient for a procedure if that is indicated, and communicate impressions or procedural findings in a written report that may outline next steps. Each interaction is worth between 0.25 to 4.0 RVU (that's just a wild guess of the interquartile range, or IQR)--repeat this over and over to get to about 4000 to 10,000 RVUs/year (depending on the specialty).

Outside any actual procedure, the interquartile range for non-radiologists is probably 5-20 minutes for each "interaction". Outside any actual procedure, the interquartile range for radiologists is probably 1-10 minutes for each "interaction".

Decide which fundamental activity you want to do over and over and over.

Thank you for such an in-depth response! I'm nearing the end of the clinical year and have gotten a pretty good exposure I think to imaging, it's uses, basic interpretations, etc. I guess my main concern is trying to figure out if being in the reading room and being "on" for an entire shift reading is something I would enjoy.

I do think I enjoy imaging and in general I would say throughout the year I've enjoyed learning about it, trying to interpret imagines, going and talking to radiology, etc. I guess my question comes from could I spend a few full days down in the reading room and get a good feel for if it's something I could do all day every day, or do you think it's someting that really takes more time (i.e. 1 month rotation) to get a good grasp of?

 

[aaronrodgers]

Thank you for such an in-depth response! I'm nearing the end of the clinical year and have gotten a pretty good exposure I think to imaging, it's uses, basic interpretations, etc. I guess my main concern is trying to figure out if being in the reading room and being "on" for an entire shift reading is something I would enjoy.

I do think I enjoy imaging and in general I would say throughout the year I've enjoyed learning about it, trying to interpret imagines, going and talking to radiology, etc. I guess my question comes from could I spend a few full days down in the reading room and get a good feel for if it's something I could do all day every day, or do you think it's someting that really takes more time (i.e. 1 month rotation) to get a good grasp of?

I spent a few days shadowing a chief resident and got to see how they spend a couple hours interpreting images after which there was a read out with the attending. Got to see them do small procedures like CT-guided injections, fluoro studies, etc. I was enamored by the end of it all and so I enrolled in a month long radiology rotation which I am now currently on. Still love it just as much!

My point is that you should use the shadowing experience as a screening tool. If you are immediately unattracted to radiology from a few days then you don’t have to do a rotation. But if you are absolutely in love with the experience or even just on the fence about it, then do a full rotation to get a better feeling.

On your shadowing experience definitely try to experience a read out with an attending, attending a didactic, and see a few procedures to get a typical day-to-day experience!

 

[RadiologyPD]

I agree with aaronrodgers, BUT recognize that a rotation will help you understand what it's like to be a radiology resident...this is different than what it is like to be a diagnostic radiologist.

Assuming you are not going into academics (most people don't), if you are trying to get a sense as to what it would be like to be a radiologist, I would advise 3 possible strategies. All 3 are boring as it can be, and will still take a tremendous leap of faith on your part, but any will give you a sense of what to expect for your work career (not for your residency--your experience as a resident does not always translate to your experience in practice).

1. Approach a resident/chief resident with whom you have any acquaintance and see if any senior residents moonlight, then ask if they would let you watch them for an entire moonlight shift during a day/evening shift (not overnight). You promise not to ask for any teaching and will be a fly on the wall.
2. Watch what a resident at your institution does on call during a Sat or Sun day shift for the whole shift, by himself/herself, without an attending in the room. Again, you promise to be a fly on the wall.
3. If you have any access to a private practice group or know any private practice radiologist, watch what he/she does for a whole day's work outside of the hospital setting. Be that fly on the wall.

All 3 strategies rely on just observation, not engagement. They rely on a person willing to let you just watch them, which can be creepy as hell. It will disappoint you how mundane a day can be, how often a radiologist gets interrupted, how stressful it can be--you have to look past that, ALL specialties have issues. Don't get me wrong, I love being a radiologist and personally can't imagine doing anything else in medicine, but it isn't for everyone.

Or you can just go with your gut based on thinking about "the fundamental activity". As I said, it's a leap of faith.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Do you recommend making personalized personal statements or just reaching out with a email to programs that we really want once they start sending out interview invites?

I ask because I'm currently writing up small paragraphs for each of my top 3 and am wondering if that would be less useful than just reaching out personally once interviews start going out.

 

[RadiologyPD]

Personalized personal statements are excellent. Just be sure they are sent correctly (i.e., the one for program A is sent to program A, etc.)

 

[solomanwang1022]

Personalized personal statements are excellent. Just be sure they are sent correctly (i.e., the one for program A is sent to program A, etc.)

Thanks for this! From your experience, are they just an extra paragraph at the end of their personal statements? Or is it tied into their personal statement? I am happy with how my personal statement is at the moment and I am not sure I would be able to integrate it well overall.

 

[RadiologyPD]

Extra paragraph is fine; just shows that you took the effort to reflect on the program in the context of your interests. This probably works best if you can sincerely articulate some connection to you. For example, version 1 below is not particularly great, version 2 is better:

Version 1: I am particularly interested in training at PROGRAM because of its outstanding track record in producing excellent radiologists, the independent call experience, the nationally recognized faculty, its focus on education, and its location in REGION.

Version 2: I am particularly interested in training at PROGRAM. I understand that my positive attitude and hard work will be instrumental in becoming an excellent radiologist, but I also understand the critical role of my training program to maximize my potential. My research on PROGRAM has identified 3 key aspects of the program that resonate most with me. First, I can't help but be excited about the fact that PROGRAM highlights the independent call experience, which recent literature indicates has significant benefit to subsequent work productivity. I'm convinced that this style of supervised independent work works best with my own learning style. Second, the faculty roster at PROGRAM is nationally-recognized, giving me confidence that the procedural techniques and interpretation approaches I learn will be cutting-edge and help me best take care of patients. Finally, PROGRAM'S location in REGION gives me the best opportunity to settle in an area of the country in which I would love to practice; in fact, it would be a dream come true if I can succeed to the level of either joining the faculty at PROGRAM or being adjunct faculty affiliated with PROGRAM to help educate radiologists in the future.

Try to really understand what you really want out of your training program, your career, and your life and give some thought to how PROGRAM might help you get there. It doesn't have to be BS, which risks you seeming to be dishonest.