Racial jokes from attending

[APACHE3]

Originally Posted by Panda Bear
Um....my parents immigrated from Greece in the sixties but I'd kick down doors in Athens and call in airstrike on the Parthenon if it came down to it.

That's the beauty of this country, we're all Americans despite our racial and cultural backgrounds.

We're going to war with Greece? Sweeet! They got some great island coastal property!!

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[MeganRose]

Um, OK. But aren't you being a bit stereotypical here yourself? I understand your allusion to a small Alabama town but ROTC?

It just doesn't compute.

He's saying this b/c there are many ppl in the military who are unapologetically racist.

 

[MeganRose]

What is the equivalent to racism when you imply that someone's ROTC background or regional origin contributes to their prejudices? You're no better than he is. It's bad to be racist against Chinese-Americans, but not Alabama-Americans?

I dont think the OP was trying to say they contribute to this attendings racism, only that these two things make him being a racist more probable.
M

 

[8744]

He's saying this b/c there are many ppl in the military who are unapologetically racist.

Whoa Nelly. That's a pretty sweeping statement and impossible to either prove or disprove.

 

[8744]

tcw2u,



Also, please don't think that everyone in the military is a pro-white, gun hoe American that likes to look down on all the "lesser" people. Sure there are a lot of jerks in the military. These people are so arrogant that they even think that God is an American!

But let me assure you there are plenty of really respectable and upright moral people in the military as well. I know of several Vietnam war vets of have constantly travled back to the places they fought to build schools and health clinics. Very deeply moving if you ask me. Some of these people are from the deep SOUTH. So it is completely wrong whenever we in the NORTH enertaine our long time notion that all Southerners are all racist. That is simply not true!

Dude, read what you just wrote. Are you saying you can't be gung ho for America and white and be a decent and moral person? Man, I'm pretty patriotic in the old-fashioned way (as opposed to today when "peace is patriotic" is chanted in the light of a burning American flag) and most people who know me think I'm a pretty decent guy.

And there is nothing immoral about killing the enemy, taking pride in your work doing it, and not feeling compelled to make amends by building schools and health clinics. In other words, I think you are buying into the "veteran as twisted psycopath" stereotype promulgated by your liberal masters.

God is not an American and no nation enjoys special favor except as the its people strive to live Godly lives. On the other hand Christ loves good soldiers and particularly American soliders.

Sorry, I know you have been conditioned to think that Christianity is all about linking hands and singing Kumbayah but this is not the case. In the ideal sense, soldiers represent all of the Christian virtues. Courage, self sacrifice, faith, hope, long-suffering, obedience, respect, and self discipline. If you read the Bible, you get the idea that Christ has a special affection for the Roman soldiers and often uses them, metaphorically, to depict the powerful submitting to His authority out of love and faith.

Sheesh. This thread started as a simple story about an injustice which we could all agree needed to be corrected (even if we disagree how). Now it has morphed into a reverse-racist screed, proof that no liberal can go more than a paragraph or so without running down his country, the military, and whitey.

 

[8744]

Originally Posted by Panda Bear
Um....my parents immigrated from Greece in the sixties but I'd kick down doors in Athens and call in airstrike on the Parthenon if it came down to it.

That's the beauty of this country, we're all Americans despite our racial and cultural backgrounds.

We're going to war with Greece? Sweeet! They got some great island coastal property!!

The Greeks are typical cowardly European appeaser-weasels. To think that they once made the Germans pay in blood for every inch of Greek territory.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Dude, read what you just wrote. Are you saying you can't be gung ho for America and white and be a decent and moral person? Man, I'm pretty patriotic in the old-fashioned way (as opposed to today when "peace is patriotic" is chanted in the light of a burning American flag) and most people who know me think I'm a pretty decent guy.

And there is nothing immoral about killing the enemy, taking pride in your work doing it, and not feeling compelled to make amends by building schools and health clinics. In other words, I think you are buying into the "veteran as twisted psycopath" stereotype promulgated by your liberal masters.

God is not an American and no nation enjoys special favor except as the its people strive to live Godly lives. On the other hand Christ loves good soldiers and particularly American soliders.

Sorry, I know you have been conditioned to think that Christianity is all about linking hands and singing Kumbayah but this is not the case. In the ideal sense, soldiers represent all of the Christian virtues. Courage, self sacrifice, faith, hope, long-suffering, obedience, respect, and self discipline. If you read the Bible, you get the idea that Christ has a special affection for the Roman soldiers and often uses them, metaphorically, to depict the powerful submitting to His authority out of love and faith.

Sheesh. This thread started as a simple story about an injustice which we could all agree needed to be corrected (even if we disagree how). Now it has morphed into a reverse-racist screed, proof that no liberal can go more than a paragraph or so without running down his country, the military, and whitey.

A consummate example of why the rest of the western world considers us a laughing stock. It's embarrassing to me when Europeans stereotype Americans as having this kind of worldview due to our current political climate.

 

[tcw2u]

I'm glad to say that today at work there were no more racist comments from the attending, what a relief. The upper level resident again apologized to me today saying "sorry if we have offended you by making those comments", even though he wasn't the one who made these jokes. I guess he almost felt guilty for not stepping in when the attending made these blatantly inappropriate comments and having let it go on for so long.

I am a 2nd year resident, so one evaluation from this attending is not going to make or break the rest of my career. All of my previous evals during residency have been extremely positive, so I don't think I have to worry in that regard.

However I am trying to decide if I should still file a complaint to my program director, chairman, or our hospital's employee harrassment investigation department about the incident. I hope to think that this attending has learned his lesson and will be more sensitive in terms of making jokes.

I think this incident definitely falls under the definition of harrassment since he was in a position of power and he used it to make derogatory statements to people working for him when he knew that I wasn't in the position to retaliate.

It may be easy to say that I should have confronted him the very first time he made these racial comments. But when you are put in that situation for the first time you just don't know how to react, it's shocking, and I felt victimized by it, especially coming from someone who I was supposed to respect and hold as a role model. It's not easy to confront someone who holds power over you.

He must have known I was uncomfortable with his jokes because at the get-go when he started making the joke about me running sweatshops in china, the nurse asked me whether I was going to take that from him, and I said in front of everyone in the room "what can I do, he's an attending", which I'm sure he heard. Despite politely attempting to make him stop these actions a 2nd time by telling him that he was making uncomfortable jokes, he ignored it. That was why I felt the need to confront him in front of others to make him realize what he was doing was inappropriate, as when the nurse (a different one) told me "yeah I'm sure those jokes get old". If I acted in an unprofessional manner I'm sure my upper level resident would have said something, but instead he is very apologetic which signals to me that he felt wrong condoning this attending's actions.

What still bothers me the most is that the attending never apologized, as if he felt entitled to make these comments and that it's ok.

Anyway last day on this rotation tomorrow, but I still have to see his racist face the rest of my residency.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

I'm glad to say that today at work there were no more racist comments from the attending, what a relief. The upper level resident again apologized to me today saying "sorry if we have offended you by making those comments", even though he wasn't the one who made these jokes. I guess he almost felt guilty for not stepping in when the attending made these blatantly inappropriate comments and having let it go on for so long.

I am a 2nd year resident, so one evaluation from this attending is not going to make or break the rest of my career. All of my previous evals during residency have been extremely positive, so I don't think I have to worry in that regard.

However I am trying to decide if I should still file a complaint to my program director, chairman, or our hospital's employee harrassment investigation department about the incident. I hope to think that this attending has learned his lesson and will be more sensitive in terms of making jokes.

I think this incident definitely falls under the definition of harrassment since he was in a position of power and he used it to make derogatory statements to people working for him when he knew that I wasn't in the position to retaliate.

It may be easy to say that I should have confronted him the very first time he made these racial comments. But when you are put in that situation for the first time you just don't know how to react, it's shocking, and I felt victimized by it, especially coming from someone who I was supposed to respect and hold as a role model. It's not easy to confront someone who holds power over you.

He must have known I was uncomfortable with his jokes because at the get-go when he started making the joke about me running sweatshops in china, the nurse asked me whether I was going to take that from him, and I said in front of everyone in the room "what can I do, he's an attending", which I'm sure he heard. Despite politely attempting to make him stop these actions a 2nd time by telling him that he was making uncomfortable jokes, he ignored it. That was why I felt the need to confront him in front of others to make him realize what he was doing was inappropriate, as when the nurse (a different one) told me "yeah I'm sure those jokes get old". If I acted in an unprofessional manner I'm sure my upper level resident would have said something, but instead he is very apologetic which signals to me that he felt wrong condoning this attending's actions.

What still bothers me the most is that the attending never apologized, as if he felt entitled to make these comments and that it's ok.

Anyway last day on this rotation tomorrow, but I still have to see his racist face the rest of my residency.

I would go up the chain of command. Let the PD know for sure. Any respectable hospital will want to know how this guy's acting, both as an embarrassment to the hospital in front of patients and as a jerk to certain residents. He HAS to be dealt with.

 

[8744]

A consummate example of why the rest of the western world considers us a laughing stock. It's embarrassing to me when Europeans stereotype Americans as having this kind of worldview due to our current political climate.

Are those the same Europeans lighting their cities with burning automobiles?

 

[toofache32]

...I truly believe this attending is racist. He is from a small town in Alabama...

I'm not following this either, and I take offense to this statement. You just lost your "moral advantage" to your story when you made this statement. I grew up in a small town in Mississippi. My father was the first whitey dentist in the state to treat african-americans in the 1950s...that's why your statement offends me. Of course there were racists there, but I've seen just as many living in other parts of the country.

How is assuming he's a racist because he's from Alabama different from him making his assumptions about you being from China?

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Are those the same Europeans lighting their cities with burning automobiles?

The Europeans you're talking about would like to erase reason and enlightenment and return to the dark-ages, in a way. So in that sense, I think they would agree more with your view. Llike you they also think that their god favors them, and they don't understand that they only believe what they believe because of where they were born and who taught them what to believe. And yes, they are as sure as you are that they're right.

 

[Poety]

Are those the same Europeans lighting their cities with burning automobiles?

Panda, you should get together with my husband, see that cute little avatar <----- over there, her daddy - he's from Ireland and I just KNOW the two of you could go on and on about your war stories/history lessons and the like

Is the whole gung hoe thing just a guy thing? Cuz I so don't get it - and please, don't tell me you watch history channel too

 

[CatsandCradles]

Dude, read what you just wrote. Are you saying you can't be gung ho for America and white and be a decent and moral person? Man, I'm pretty patriotic in the old-fashioned way (as opposed to today when "peace is patriotic" is chanted in the light of a burning American flag) and most people who know me think I'm a pretty decent guy.

Clearly I have offended you somehow and since you have pointed it out, I apologize. I will becareful to better word my comments. It's just that this fellow, tcw2u, is going through a lot of hard times and he seemed to associate that being a Southerner + ROTC was something bad. I was trying to point out that there are a lot of respectable people in the military.

And no, I assure you I am not one of the flag burning hippie types. But while I must agree with your objection to my comment you have in quotes, I have to disagree with your following:

And there is nothing immoral about killing the enemy, taking pride in your work doing it , and not feeling compelled to make amends by building schools and health clinics.

I would agree with your previous objection and for that I must apologize, but I cannot agree with this comment here. Why does scripture say "Thou shalt not kill?" Are we to simply brush that aside and say that this was part of the Old Testament? Of course no! When asked what his relationship to the Law of the old Testament was, Jesus said it quite clearly. In Matthew 5:17 we read:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven

To think that we can simply sideline God's Word and use it for our own patriotic purposes is idolatry. Let me repeat myself again, God is not an American. Anyone who uses God's Word to promote or condone killing has a very one sided understanding of Scripture. We simply cannot sidestep the fact that killing is a sin for it violates what Scripture tells us.

Nextly, I don't understand why you object towards veterans trying to build a bridge of peace? I mean, what's wrong with someone trying to promote education and healthcare in a nation he once fought against? Nothing.

Further in Matthew 5:43, Christ teaches us: You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

As Christians, we cannot sidestep God's Word. It has been more than 30 years since the war in Vietnam ended. I am extremely proud that these men are doing what they are doing because what they are doing will also benefit children greatly (I hope to go into Pediatrics so I'm a little bit biased as there is much scripture of Jesus and children as well!)

In other words, I think you are buying into the "veteran as twisted psycopath" stereotype promulgated by your liberal masters.

I think that your response is a fair one if you are strongly conservative person. As for me I am not quite a liberal. I need you to comment more on this before I respond because I am not sure what you are trying to get at when you say "liberal masters"

God is not an American and no nation enjoys special favor except as the its people strive to live Godly lives. Sorry, I know you have been conditioned to think that Christianity is all about linking hands and singing Kumbayah but this is not the case. On the other hand Christ loves good soldiers and particularly American soliders. In the ideal sense, soldiers represent all of the Christian virtues. Courage, self sacrifice, faith, hope, long-suffering, obedience, respect, and self discipline.

I am posting this cut and paste piece from a history forum. I posted that
God is God and to try to bend him to our image is something we call idolatry. Martin Luther wrote an angry letter to a German knight Assa von Kram once after his troops said that "God was on their side." It's a great piece of Lutheran material:

"We Germans are pigs and thugs. Nobles? Indeed we are nobles indeed! The excrement of an eagle can boast that it comes from the eagle's body even though it stinks and is uselessly and so these men can also be nobility. We Germans are and remain Germans, that is we are pigs, thugs, and beast." - July 1525


Luther isn't saying that soldiers cannot enter heaven. He is saying that we as Christians must have a respectable sense of fear for what we are doing.

Scripture clearly says that soldiers are called by God to do thier duty for society. John the Baptist when asked on what soldiers should do, tells them that they should be good soldiers! I would think that being a good soldier would also mean helping all people after the fighting stops.

If you read the Bible, you get the idea that Christ has a special affection for the Roman soldiers and often uses them, metaphorically, to depict the powerful submitting to His authority out of love and faith.

Yes agreed. Isn't it interesting the ONLY two times Jesus praises someone for thier faith, it is people of sheer humbleness? The samaritan women and the Roman soldier - both interestingly enough were non-Isralites!

Sheesh. This thread started as a simple story about an injustice which we could all agree needed to be corrected (even if we disagree how). Now it has morphed into a reverse-racist screed, proof that no liberal can go more than a paragraph or so without running down his country, the military, and whitey.

Well, I did state in my previous post that: "So it is completely wrong whenever we in the NORTH enertain our long time notion that all Southerners are all racist. That is simply not true"

Well, I'm definantly not an Evangelical. Orthodox? Yes, perhaps to an uncomfortable degree.

God speed you safe and sound,

C&C

 

[tcw2u]

I'm not following this either, and I take offense to this statement. You just lost your "moral advantage" to your story when you made this statement. I grew up in a small town in Mississippi. My father was the first whitey dentist in the state to treat african-americans in the 1950s...that's why your statement offends me. Of course there were racists there, but I've seen just as many living in other parts of the country.

How is assuming he's a racist because he's from Alabama different from him making his assumptions about you being from China?

I certainly am not saying that all people from Alabama or in the ROTC are racist. There was a previous post by someone wanting to know his background.

At least 2-3 racial jokes/comments a day despite our group not laughing at them, uncomfortable silences; that's what makes him very likely a racist.

As Kramer from Seinfeld puts it, it all starts out as little jokes about how they are different, then it goes on to slurs and name calling, then pretty soon you will be saying that they should have their own schools. I don't remember if these were his exact words but you get the idea. I thought it was really funny because him and Jerry were talking about dentists, but there's a pattern here. "But they do have their own schools!!!"

"Anti-dentite!!!"

 

[blocks]

"God is not an American and no nation enjoys special favor except as the its people strive to live Godly lives. On the other hand Christ loves good soldiers and particularly American soliders."

You have *officially* lost all credibility.

 

[P Diddy]

God is not an American and no nation enjoys special favor except as the its people strive to live Godly lives. On the other hand Christ loves good soldiers and particularly American soliders.

this is some funny siht. do you really believe this? could you estimate how many former soldiers actually believe this? my opinion of the army drops with every post you make.

so if you were to rank how much Christ loves soldiers from various countries, are you saying that America would be on top, followed by soldiers from other protestant countries, then Catholic countries' soldiers? please also tell me where Hindu and Moslem Indian soldiers rank in the reception of Christ's love.

oh and i'm also confused about good atheist soldiers in the US Army as well as Muslim American soldiers. do they also receive Christ's love, or do they miss the love boat when they die in battle?

 

[8744]

this is some funny siht. do you really believe this? could you estimate how many former soldiers actually believe this? my opinion of the army drops with every post you make.

so if you were to rank how much Christ loves soldiers from various countries, are you saying that America would be on top, followed by soldiers from other protestant countries, then Catholic countries' soldiers? please also tell me where Hindu and Moslem Indian soldiers rank in the reception of Christ's love.

oh and i'm also confused about good atheist soldiers in the US Army as well as Muslim American soldiers. do they also receive Christ's love, or do they miss the love boat when they die in battle?

No atheists in foxholes, son, and almost every Marine I knew believed in God. I'm not saying they were "plaster saints" and didn't raise hell now and then but they believed where and when it counts.

 

[8744]

"God is not an American and no nation enjoys special favor except as the its people strive to live Godly lives. On the other hand Christ loves good soldiers and particularly American soliders."

You have *officially* lost all credibility.

Are you saying that Christ does not love soldiers who believe in Him? Are you also saying that Christ does not love American soldiers, most of whom are Christians and most of whom are pretty decent guys? Dude, read your Bible. Christ loves all sinners who believe in Him. Sorry.

My my. Do you see how easy it is to get "progressives" or "liberals" or whatever they call themselves to unmask themselves as bigots? All I have to do is say something good about America and particularly the American military and you folks go into raptures of revulsion.

Do ya kinda sorta see the anti-military, anti-American bias of the liberal mindset?

 

[CNphair]

My my. Do you see how easy it is to get "progressives" or "liberals" or whatever they call themselves to unmask themselves as bigots? All I have to do is say something good about America and particularly the American military and you folks go into raptures of revulsion.

Do ya kinda sorta see the anti-military, anti-American bias of the liberal mindset?

I don't think it is the progressives that are showing themselves as bigots. Your posts in this thread are not "patriotic" or "American." They are frightening. Spoken in a different language, most Americans would tremble at such sentiments. Of course God loves the American soldier...but that is because he loves all men, not because the soldier is American.

And for the record, my family is in the military, I am from a small town in Alabama, and I have a flag outside my door. But I am still saddened by your statements...I think God prefers to stay out of man's politics.

 

[8744]

I don't think it is the progressives that are showing themselves as bigots. Your posts in this thread are not "patriotic" or "American." They are frightening. Spoken in a different language, most Americans would tremble at such sentiments. Of course God loves the American soldier...but that is because he loves all men, not because the soldier is American.

And for the record, my family is in the military, I am from a small town in Alabama, and I have a flag outside my door. But I am still saddened by your statements...I think God prefers to stay out of man's politics.

Dude, sometimes to be a patriot, you have to be a patriot. I am not accusing you of this but but you can't love your country and hate your countrymen. In other words, the progressive meme is to profess that they are just as patriotic as anybody else and that they love America...except for those psychotic miltary baby-killers, those right-wing bigots living in their trailers as they plot to steal votes from Mr. Kerry, anybody who believes in God in other than a luke-warm I'm OK you're OK sort of way, Rebublicans, conservatives, and anybody who doesn't give a rat's ass about global warming.

All I have to do is imply that the Almighty might have some special affection for American soldiers who are probably some of the finest people to ever fight for any country and the very idea that there is something special about Americans throws everybody into a fit.

 

[Pureride]

I am calling you out!


I think you are lying and probably get thrills out of starting controversy up on message boards and even more importantly you probably love the attention you are getting.

What do you think?

The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of your side and my side.
I know some attendings that are pretty damn ignorant and capable of making racist jokes, but more likely you overheard an attending making a joke or two or heard of a story of an attending who makes racist jokes.

what do you think?
Am I right-on?

 

[8744]

I am calling you out!


I think you are lying and probably get thrills out of starting controversy up on message boards and even more importantly you probably love the attention you are getting.

What do you think?

The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of your side and my side.
I know some attendings that are pretty damn ignorant and capable of making racist jokes, but more likely you overheard an attending making a joke or two or heard of a story of an attending who makes racist jokes.

what do you think?
Am I right-on?

I have never heard an attending being overtly racist except for the so-called reverse racism towards white people which is allowed. Since everyone is so hypersensitive these days such an attending wouldn't last five minutes.

 

[Hurricane]

Dude, sometimes to be a patriot, you have to be a patriot. I am not accusing you of this but but you can't love your country and hate your countrymen. In other words, the progressive meme is to profess that they are just as patriotic as anybody else and that they love America...except for those psychotic miltary baby-killers, those right-wing bigots living in their trailers as they plot to steal votes from Mr. Kerry, anybody who believes in God in other than a luke-warm I'm OK you're OK sort of way, Rebublicans, conservatives, and anybody who doesn't give a rat's ass about global warming.

All I have to do is imply that the Almighty might have some special affection for American soldiers who are probably some of the finest people to ever fight for any country and the very idea that there is something special about Americans throws everybody into a fit.

I don't have to like or agree with every single person who lives here in order to love my country. Quite the contrary - Thomas Jefferson said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

And last time I checked, our Constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion. So just because I don't share your beliefs about God and his predilection for American soldiers doesn't mean I love my country less than you do.

 

[8744]

I don't have to like or agree with every single person who lives here in order to love my country. Quite the contrary - Thomas Jefferson said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

And last time I checked, our Constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion. So just because I don't share your beliefs about God and his predilection for American soldiers doesn't mean I love my country less than you do.

If you read my post, you'll see that I was not accusing you of the behavior I described.

I think that groups like ANSWER, for example, and other vast swathes of the left in America are not patriotic in any sense at all unless you expand the definition of patriotism so far as too make the word meaningless. Hoping for the defeat of American forces (I'm not accusing you of this) and running down your own country at every turn is not patriotic at all. They have a perfect right to do it, naturally.

Here, watch this....

France sucks!

Now in about an hour we will get a list of posts from Americans running down the United States even though I never compared France to the US, only made an isolated observation about the suckiness of the French.

 

[Hurricane]

If you read my post, you'll see that I was not accusing you of the behavior I described.

I think that groups like ANSWER, for example, and other vast swathes of the left in America are not patriotic in any sense at all unless you expand the definition of patriotism so far as too make the word meaningless. Hoping for the defeat of American forces (I'm not accusing you of this) and running down your own country at every turn is not patriotic at all. They have a perfect right to do it, naturally.

I'm not familiar with ANSWER, but I agree that extremist groups - both left and right wing - often do not act in our country's best interests. That said, I disagree with many of the policies put forth by the current administration, and I feel it is my patriotic duty to voice my dissent and work within the system to support the election of those who share my beliefs about what's best for this country. I would never go so far as to wish for the deaths of our soldiers to prove a point - I find that repugnant. But many people mistake not supporting the policies that lead to this war with not supporting the individuals whose duty it is to fight it. I am frustrated with the knee-jerk response of "you're unpatriotic and you don't support our troops" whenever someone questions the actions of our current president. I am not accusing you of doing that, but it does happen, and IMO is one of the reasons liberals are so defensive when the subject of patriotism comes up.

My, we have veered off topic, haven't we? I must stop discussing politics and get back to my Step 2 studying!

Here, watch this....

France sucks!

Perhaps, but the food (and wine!) is out of this world

 

[8744]

I'm not familiar with ANSWER, but I agree that extremist groups - both left and right wing - often do not act in our country's best interests. That said, I disagree with many of the policies put forth by the current administration, and I feel it is my patriotic duty to voice my dissent and work within the system to support the election of those who share my beliefs about what's best for this country. I would never go so far as to wish for the deaths of our soldiers to prove a point - I find that repugnant. But many people mistake not supporting the policies that lead to this war with not supporting the individuals whose duty it is to fight it. I am frustrated with the knee-jerk response of "you're unpatriotic and you don't support our troops" whenever someone questions the actions of our current president. I am not accusing you of doing that, but it does happen, and IMO is one of the reasons liberals are so defensive when the subject of patriotism comes up.

My, we have veered off topic, haven't we? I must stop discussing politics and get back to my Step 2 studying!



Perhaps, but the food (and wine!) is out of this world

Fair enough.

 

[cytoborg]

I am a 2nd year resident, so one evaluation from this attending is not going to make or break the rest of my career. All of my previous evals during residency have been extremely positive, so I don't think I have to worry in that regard.

Oops, my bad, for some reason I assumed you were a med student.

Yeah, I think it definitely falls under the definition of harrassment. I guess you just have to decide how far you want to take it.

Good luck, however you decide to hanle it.

 

[tigershark]

Most institutions have a system to report such incidents anonymously without fear of reprisal, and they are taken very seriously.

Find out what your hospital has and pursue it that way.

 

[8744]

Panda, you should get together with my husband, see that cute little avatar <----- over there, her daddy - he's from Ireland and I just KNOW the two of you could go on and on about your war stories/history lessons and the like

Is the whole gung hoe thing just a guy thing? Cuz I so don't get it - and please, don't tell me you watch history channel too

That is a cute baby.

It is a guy thing, at least it used to be before "sensitivity" and inoffensiveness became the state religion.

Or, to put it another way, I guy who is so inoffensive that he won't even laugh at a homophobic joke and thinks it's unfair that men can't lactate is not exactly the guy who's going to to storm the beaches of Iowa Jima.

 

[8744]

Most institutions have a system to report such incidents anonymously without fear of reprisal, and they are taken very seriously.

Find out what your hospital has and pursue it that way.

Or, on reflection, you could just drop the whole thing and forget about it. Presumably you're only going to work with this guy for one rotation. I have worked under highly offensive liberal twits on rotations but I just gritted my teeth and smiled because I can endure anything if I kow it's only going to last a few weeks.

 

[tigershark]

Or, on reflection, you could just drop the whole thing and forget about it. Presumably you're only going to work with this guy for one rotation. I have worked under highly offensive liberal twits on rotations but I just gritted my teeth and smiled because I can endure anything if I kow it's only going to last a few weeks.

If it was an isolated incident I would agree, but this appears to be a pattern of behavior that is making everyone in the OR uncomfortable.

 

[beezar]

Most institutions have a system to report such incidents anonymously without fear of reprisal, and they are taken very seriously.

Find out what your hospital has and pursue it that way.

I completely agree. tcw2u, I applaud your courage for standing up to this attending... takes a lot of guts. However, you have to be extremely careful. Unless you are willing to risk your job/career for your beliefs, I would say try to be as anonymous as possible.

The reason I say this is that I personally know a resident who was blatantly discriminated against by a few attendings and tried to raise this issue with his program director and eventually the school's GME. Almost everyone shoved this under the carpet and instead blamed him because they did not want a scandal. There were several attendings in his program that were on his side and were simply appalled by what had happened, but that has not changed a thing. He wanted to sue his program, but that would have involved shelling out thousands of dollars for a lawyer. Long story short, he's at a different residency program now, but this incident still follows him even at his new program (in transferring, his new program director talked to his old one and certainly heard a skewed story).

No matter how right you are and how wrong your attending is, and no matter how much support you have from other residents/attendings, you simply have know idea what kind of connections this attending might have, and that could break you.

I am definitely not suggesting that you don't fight for yourself, but you might have to be willing to risk your job.... a sadly unfortunate fact of life.

 

[P Diddy]

No atheists in foxholes, son, and almost every Marine I knew believed in God. I'm not saying they were "plaster saints" and didn't raise hell now and then but they believed where and when it counts.

they believed when they were scared out of their minds, son? what a validation of their spirituality, to only believe in God in the face of impending doom. unless you're arguing that faith in the supernatural is expedient in these circumstances even if it's complete BS because it allows people who can't think critically to keep their heads.

 

[deleted50478]

.

 

[f_w]

Be sure to put all the episodes in writing, name the witnesses and ask them to write down the incident(s) as well (while the chief resident might not stand up for you, the RN is untouchable and in all likelihood will). Send it as a letter marked 'confidential' to your PD with a copy to the personnel file. I wouldn't as others put it 'make a federal case out of it', but you need to take certain steps to protect yourself. And here is why:

- The racist attending will rip you in his evaluation, that is a given. He will come up with some bogus deficiencies in your abilities that are hard to disprove ('doesn't take ownership of the patient' is a classic).

- 10 years from now, your PDs successor will get all these letters from hospital credentialing committees asking for a reference on you. Typically, these questionaires have a section 'has ever a negative report been filed about this physician'. Your current PDs successor won't know you or the racist attending (who will get fired within the next year or so after groping a nursing student). All he has to fill out this questionaire is the paper record. And you want to be sure that your resident file reflects this incident from your (and ideally the RN's) perspective.

Kudos for standing up for yourself.

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

Getting back to the original topic, tcw2u handled the situation badly.

I'm glad you confronted the guy, but you waited too long and did it at the wrong time. Even if it did take a while to get the courage to confront it, you shouldn't have brought it up in the context of talking about him to someone else. Of course he's going to get defensive if you essentially call him an a@@hole to someone else right in front of his face.

Attending: "Blah blah.. racist comment."

Nurse: "What was that about?"

Tcw2u: "He's a racist a@@hole, but I've never told him that to his face. I've just been getting more and more pissed over time."

Nurse: "Yeah me too. Lets talk about him like he's not even here!"

Tcw2u: "Good idea!"

Attending: (* feels embarassed about his behavior, but also mad that he was humiliated in public *)

---< enter the elevator >---

Tcw2u: "Remember when I humiliated you?"

Attending: "Yeah, I get it, I won't do it anymore, drop it!"

Tcw2u: "No, I'm not quite done humiliating you for something I should've brought up days ago, but was too scared to."

Attending: "Ok, I suppose I'll just stand here and be dressed down by an equally tactless a@@hole then."


So as much as I agree that the attending was making inappropriate comments, Tcw2u was equally inappropriate in his handling of it. Both behaviors are socially unacceptable in my opinion. I'm betting that had Tcw2u approached the attending in private and said something, it would not have been a problem at all.

I'm embarassed to admit, but I've played the role of the attending in this scenario, and guess which confrontation worked on me? Sometimes people honestly don't know they're being offensive until they're told.

(BTW, if I were the attending and I were approached man-to-man as I described, I would not let it effect my evaluation of them. These problems come up, and its up to the teammembers to work it out and resolve it as tactfully as possible. But if they did what Tcw2u did, I'd probably ream them for not being assertive enough and not being able to maturely resolve a conflict with a teammember. I'd also ream myself for being an insensitive a@@hole.)

HamOn

 

[cytoborg]

Be sure to put all the episodes in writing, name the witnesses and ask them to write down the incident(s) as well (while the chief resident might not stand up for you, the RN is untouchable and in all likelihood will). Send it as a letter marked 'confidential' to your PD with a copy to the personnel file. I wouldn't as others put it 'make a federal case out of it', but you need to take certain steps to protect yourself. And here is why:

- The racist attending will rip you in his evaluation, that is a given. He will come up with some bogus deficiencies in your abilities that are hard to disprove ('doesn't take ownership of the patient' is a classic).

- 10 years from now, your PDs successor will get all these letters from hospital credentialing committees asking for a reference on you. Typically, these questionaires have a section 'has ever a negative report been filed about this physician'. Your current PDs successor won't know you or the racist attending (who will get fired within the next year or so after groping a nursing student). All he has to fill out this questionaire is the paper record. And you want to be sure that your resident file reflects this incident from your (and ideally the RN's) perspective.

Word. Great advice f_w.

 

[usnavdoc]

Getting back to the original topic, tcw2u handled the situation badly.

I'm glad you confronted the guy, but you waited too long and did it at the wrong time. Even if it did take a while to get the courage to confront it, you shouldn't have brought it up in the context of talking about him to someone else. Of course he's going to get defensive if you essentially call him an a@@hole to someone else right in front of his face.

Attending: "Blah blah.. racist comment."

Nurse: "What was that about?"

Tcw2u: "He's a racist a@@hole, but I've never told him that to his face. I've just been getting more and more pissed over time."

Nurse: "Yeah me too. Lets talk about him like he's not even here!"

Tcw2u: "Good idea!"

Attending: (* feels embarassed about his behavior, but also mad that he was humiliated in public *)

---< enter the elevator >---

Tcw2u: "Remember when I humiliated you?"

Attending: "Yeah, I get it, I won't do it anymore, drop it!"

Tcw2u: "No, I'm not quite done humiliating you for something I should've brought up days ago, but was too scared to."

Attending: "Ok, I suppose I'll just stand here and be dressed down by an equally tactless a@@hole then."


So as much as I agree that the attending was making inappropriate comments, Tcw2u was equally inappropriate in his handling of it. Both behaviors are socially unacceptable in my opinion. I'm betting that had Tcw2u approached the attending in private and said something, it would not have been a problem at all.

I'm embarassed to admit, but I've played the role of the attending in this scenario, and guess which confrontation worked on me? Sometimes people honestly don't know they're being offensive until they're told.

(BTW, if I were the attending and I were approached man-to-man as I described, I would not let it effect my evaluation of them. These problems come up, and its up to the teammembers to work it out and resolve it as tactfully as possible. But if they did what Tcw2u did, I'd probably ream them for not being assertive enough and not being able to maturely resolve a conflict with a teammember. I'd also ream myself for being an insensitive a@@hole.)

HamOn

100% agree, exactly what I was saying in my posts.

I think everyone here giving advice should also remember that we are only seeing one side of this situation and sometimes the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[edinOH]

How is assuming he's a racist because he's from Alabama different from him making his assumptions about you being from China?

nail, meet hammer.

 

[dodo2]

At this point, since it is out in the open, I would launch a formal complaint against him before you get your eval. Document everything. That way he will have to think ten times before he gives you a bad eval. He will have to justify to the superiors that the bad eval is not because of the complaint.

Talk to the resident coordinator, chairman, pd. Tell them that you will not tolerate this anymore. This is a very serious matter for the program since you could sue them for creating a hostile work environment

If you let this slide at this point, he could give you a very bad eval and your complaint will look like because of bad eval.

 

[dara678]

How is assuming he's a racist because he's from Alabama different from him making his assumptions about you being from China?

uh, he said he's not from china, he's from HONG KONG which was a british colony back then, and he moved here before it reverted to china. it's a small point, but it goes to show that people jump to assumptions and conclusions without really knowing anything about a culture -- that's how stereotypes are started. if you aren't qualified, then don't say anything at all.

implying that someone is a bigot or is ignorant just because they're from alabama is wrong, and the OP shouldn't have done that. however, i'm still surprised how many people called him out on it, and didn't really care about the attending's comments against asian ppl.

 

[dara678]

oh another point i wanted to make -- it's important to distinguish hong kong vs. china because everything between them is different -- cultural attitudes, ways of thinking, education, quality of life, economy, language, FOOD -- and thus you can't group them together.

just because you are asian -- or even chinese -- doesn't mean you fit into specified categories.

 

[CatsandCradles]

implying that someone is a bigot or is ignorant just because they're from alabama is wrong, and the OP shouldn't have done that. however, i'm still surprised how many people called him out on it, and didn't really care about the attending's comments against asian ppl.

Good job pointing that out. Agreed. I think it's sort of phenomenal why that happened. I mean the level of discrimination that the OP must have felt must have been 100X times worse, yet other posters here are ripping on him as soon as they felt just a hair of discrimination.

Maybe it's a biological thing. In this case it is survival of the dominant - and the dominant will do anything to suppress itself from the lesser. Maybe it's our primitive brain stem that takes over the supposedly higher mental facilities of the cerebral hemisphere.

You know, I must confess that I have my own predjudices and bias that I will hide deep inside of me...and then I sometimes dare to wonder what life must be like if I were a different race or ethnic background, and then I see just how evil my predjudices and biases are. It makes me uncomfortable just thinking about it. Troubling? You can bet your shirt and tie it is.

 

[usnavdoc]

uh, he said he's not from china, he's from HONG KONG which was a british colony back then, and he moved here before it reverted to china. it's a small point, but it goes to show that people jump to assumptions and conclusions without really knowing anything about a culture -- that's how stereotypes are started. if you aren't qualified, then don't say anything at all.

implying that someone is a bigot or is ignorant just because they're from alabama is wrong, and the OP shouldn't have done that. however, i'm still surprised how many people called him out on it, and didn't really care about the attending's comments against asian ppl.

Are you kidding me? lol He was called out on it because he was being hypocritical himself. That is ridiculous. "if you aren't qualified, then don't say anything at all." Stereotype my ass. Hong kong or china it doesnt matter. No one was making distinctions to that degree. It was smply about racism. Its all the same whether he was from china or hong kong(which BTW despite its different cultural history has been part of china since 1997 "one country two systems" as they say)

I think the key point from the begining is that he handled the situation poorly for an entire month before responding. Then when he did respond he chose to do it in front of a patient. And now he is considering reporting the attending anonymously??? He needs to grow up and stand up for himself in a professional manner.

This thread has run its course and at this point really has nothing to do with medicine at all.

 

[tcw2u]

Are you kidding me? lol He was called out on it because he was being hypocritical himself. That is ridiculous. "if you aren't qualified, then don't say anything at all." Stereotype my ass. Hong kong or china it doesnt matter. No one was making distinctions to that degree. It was smply about racism. Its all the same whether he was from china or hong kong(which BTW despite its different cultural history has been part of china since 1997 "one country two systems" as they say)

I think the key point from the begining is that he handled the situation poorly for an entire month before responding. Then when he did respond he chose to do it in front of a patient. And now he is considering reporting the attending anonymously??? He needs to grow up and stand up for himself in a professional manner.

This thread has run its course and at this point really has nothing to do with medicine at all.

Wow, you voiced your opinion and that's fine, no need for personal attacks on anyone else on this forum. I did what I had to do. This forum is titled general residency issues and dealing with racism during residency is related to that topic, if you don't like reading it then stop, but don't try to refrain people from voicing their opinions.

 

[usnavdoc]

Wow, you voiced your opinion and that's fine, no need for personal attacks on anyone else on this forum. I did what I had to do. This forum is titled general residency issues and dealing with racism during residency is related to that topic, if you don't like reading it then stop, but don't try to refrain people from voicing their opinions.

Im not trying to stop anyone from doing anything. Ridiculous for you to even suggest that. I didnt attack anyone personally. I responded to the two posts previous to mine. If you actually read my posts I agreed that what your attending was doing was reprehensible, But I thought that you handled it poorly as well. "You did what you had to do" You may think that but I think most people would say do it in a more professional manner.

In terms of this post not having anything to do with medicine any longer. Well it simply doesnt. Your questions and comments have been asked and answered by people with a multitude of varying opinions and if that were to continue great. But read the last several posts both for you and attacking you for your comments and then look at me with a straight face and say this thread is still proceeding in a positve fashion.

 

[Poety]

Alright alright, everyone relax, breathe in, breathe out - I think we all know what both the OP and attending did wrong in this situation and whether we agree with either side or not - is a moot point now.

Lets just try to be supportive (I know I am SO the kumbaya SDN member aren't I?) of eachother.

These threads get so long without any good points being made - which is understandable because we're all type A's that are quite smart and when we start going at it - watch out!

I just want to say that I'm sure twk understands everyones point on how he could have handled it, and now that he has the experience under his belt, I'm sure he's intelligent enough to handle it differently next time.

However, he should also be commended for doing anything at all since many people (lets be real about this) would have just let it go to continue on at someone elses expense.

I think you are all very bright and intelligent people and offer so much to this forum when you don't argue and fight - can we go back to that please?

twk: please keep us posted on what steps you take in this matter ok?

 

[mosche]

Poety, if you ever go into politics, the gun lobby will NOT support you with that attitude!

 

[Poety]

<kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya, kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya> come on Mosche, sing it with me