Quoted: med student with 2 DUIs

[Doodledog]

Hi, I'm a first year medical student. I had a prior DUI in 2006 which I plead guilty too and I just got arrested for a second one. There has obviously been no decision on the second one and I will inform my school on Monday. However, I was wondering how this would affect me taking the COMLEX and USMLE and how it would affect my applications for residency programs.

I don't really have the answer but am posting this so that anyone with an informed perspective can reply. I do suggest that you discuss this in person with your Dean for Student Affairs rather than just sending an email. I assume you've already contacted a lawyer.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Several thoughts:

1. The first is whether you have an alcohol problem or not. I would argue that, at a minimum, you have relatively poor judgement in this area. Simply put, you should not drive after drinking any significant alcohol. Now you will have two judgements against you. One perhaps can be chalked up to a poor mistake. Two suggests something deeper.

At a maximum, you may have an alcohol problem. In that case, you need to seek help immediately.

2. You will need to report all of this on your ERAS application for residency. It will almost certainly affect your ability to get a residency. With a single DUI, you could say that you made a mistake and learned your lesson -- with two, that's going to be a harder argument.

 

[Apollyon]

In New York, for example, second DWI (what they call a DUI) within 10 years is a felony. With a felony conviction, you're in deep stuff - like, forget your medical career - seriously. There are exceptions, of course (one of which I could tell you that would curl your hair), but those tend to be after you've become a doc.

What you have to do is be proactive. The above posters are being gentle. At a maximum, you have a problem? No, at minimum. There is NO WAY anyone who deals with impaired professionals is going to say anything less. One DUI as a physician will require you to sign up with your state's physician health program (PHP), and with that comes a 5 year contract, random drug screening maybe once a week to start, and AA meetings. You might even be "strongly recommended" to attend an inpatient facility, like Talbot or Hazelden. That could be 28 days, but, if you even burp, they could up it to 90 days.

Two DUIs, before even graduating med school? If you don't walk into court having already seen your state PHP and telling the court that you have a problem and you are working on it, and you realize that, if you don't address it, you likely will NEVER be a doctor, then you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Quite honestly, though, if you are rich, and you can get the scummiest, scuzziest lawyer you can, there may be some bizarre way the shyster can get you out of this one, somehow getting the charge dropped. However, the arrest is still there, and you need to, again, be proactive. If it isn't a felony, you still have one DUI. That will follow you around forever, and addictions medicine people will tell you that, just like mental illness, if you have had your life affected by alcohol (and legal problems are just that), then you have a problem. That you had a clinical "relapse" is beyond worrisome.

It's not like you're at risk - you have affirmatively failed once, and are on the bubble for another. Unfortunately, you may have to drink the Kool-Aid (no alcohol) and go "full recovery", and, as the recovery folks would tell you, you should never again in your life, while you are a doctor, have anything at all to drink. If you can't do that, then, again, that's evidence you have a problem. If you have no problem not drinking, then you're already on your way.

For comparison, if you had a commercial driver's license, a second DUI would have it revoked permanently. If your livelihood was eliminated, you're left with nothing.

And, on a sociopathic level, there are people that will discount you because you weren't smart enough to avoid this. 17% of physicians are impaired - that's one out of 6. There's doctors you look at every day that are impaired. Do you see bloodshot eyes? Do you smell alcohol on their breath? They're smart about their addiction.

Finally, do you want a pretty sure way to sink your medical case (not talking the legal side)? Start making excuses or rationalizing. Just think of the millions of people that don't have one DUI.

 

[nitemagi]

A few things come to mind--

I agree with aPD that alcohol is a problem for you. 2 DUI's indicates a problem, in your judgment as to when you have a problem or what you can handle, and also a problem of your image to others.

So now you have 3 years or so to show that you can get it under control. And it's especially important since (believe it or not) you haven't even hit the highest stress time of medical school yet. Bad habits start early, and often get reinforced during stressful times. Getting into some type of a program is necessary now more than ever. To further this you will need to be able to demonstrate to future residencies that you have this under control and even be able to have shown this during your clinical rotations. Finally you'll need to be able to demonstrate this to your future state medical board. You should of course consult with a lawyer, but disclosing this will mean they will be watching you closely. Not disclosing and then being found out would likely mean your license is revoked. In california I've heard stories of medical licenses being revoked for 1 DUI once already licensed.

So check your ego and look hard at yourself. Recognize we're all smart people, and thus have a nearly infinite ability to rationalize away behavior, creating reasons why we aren't really to blame. One way or another this IS a problem because society thinks it's a problem. If you want the privilege to practice medicine from society, then you have to obey their rules. That's the sacrifice for playing the game.

 

[futuredoc1004]

You are an alcoholic with a criminal record who puts the lives of others at risk by letting your addiction takw over. You have not been licenced to practice. The only licence you have - to drive - puts lives at risk! I do not know the rules and regulations but based upon your record, if I was in authority, I would not licence you to practice no matter how brilliant you may be. Get the best lawyer in the field and expensive is cheap. You want the charges to go away perhaps consentingt to a long rehab taking a year off. Yodu have not yet killed someone behind the wheel only because you have been lucky. You have a propensity tpo risky, illegal, unacceptable behaviour that puts lives at risk. I have no idea if you have dabbled in drugs due to your addictive personality. Timing is everything and your timing is awful as the con startsequences may end your career before it can start.

 

[3dtp]

I agree with Apollyon. To give you a general gestalt of current regulatory thinking in the US, the FAA mandates reporting any alcohol related problems at the time pilots renew their medical certificates, even if it is completely unrelated to aviation activities.

FAR Part 67 requires aviation medical examiners defer (i.e. do not issue) a pilot medical certificate if there is any substance abuse resulting in a physically hazardous situation. The FAR defines alcohol (as well as the rest of the various recreational drugs) as a substance within the meaning of Part 67.

The FAA has determined and the National Transportation Safety Board has upheld the FAA in this that any time an administrative action against a driver's license or a conviction would be considered a physically hazardous situation.

The FAA directs aviation medical examiners to defer issuance of a pilot medical certificate or student pilot certificate if there is:
--any arrest, conviction, administrative action for any BAC >0.15
--any arrest, conviction, administrative action for refusal to submit to BAC testing
--any arrest, conviction, administrative action within 2 years AND any prior arrest conviction or administrative action AT ANY TIME EVER!
--total of three arrests, convictions, administrative actions within a lifetime
--total of two arrests, convictions, administrative actions within 10 years.

So, NY is not alone in this position, and I suspect the vast majority of the states are on board.

It is not hopeless if you clean up your act. The Federal Air Surgeon (Medical Certification Branch) will examine the pilot's application, require the pilot to undergo a drug and alcohol abuse evaluation in at the Aeromedical Certification Branch in Oklahoma City which takes anywhere between 2 and 4 months. And you have to report anything to the Federal Air Surgeon within 60 days (arrest, conviction etc) if you already hold a medical certificate or they will yank both the medical and the pilot certificates and ratings.

This is nothing to screw around with. You have a serious problem and need to get it fixed promptly. Get the best lawyer you can and spend whatever money you need to spend to get that advice. Get yourself right now to a substance abuse counsellor of your choosing and get an honest and accurate assessment of the degree of your problem and a proposed treatment plan and do it before a court orders you to do it. It may or may not help your legal situation but it may just save you from a life of misery regardless of what happens now.

 

[NJWxMan]

Does your medical school know yet? I suspect that you won't have to make any decisions about your career in medicine because your school will do it for you! If you are not placed on probation or simply thrown out of school, I suspect that you will have a very difficult time landing a medical license. You MIGHT be able to land a residency and MAYBE a license in an underserved state such as Montana, North Dakota, Alaska, etc.

 

[BobA]

Two DUIs and I think you probably have an addiction. The good news is that addiction is a disease, and it has treatment options. Medical boards know this and will allow people chances to get their disease of addiction treated.

You need to prove first to your medical school and then to a medical board that you have taken the appropriate steps towards treatment. The way to do that is:

1) inpatient substance abuse treatment
2) enroll in your state Physician Health Program if they will allow a medical student to do so.

Then you will probably have to have a substantial amount of time with clean urine (1 year?) before you're allowed back into medical school. Then you will probably have to continue with this and by the time you apply for residency you will have 3-4 years of clean urine demonstrating that you have your problem under control.

Best of luck!

 

[chrisisinnocent]

You are pretty screwed. Whether you get convicted or not the medical board will look at you as an alcoholic. This will make it extremely difficult for you to get licensed. Your best bet is to be proactive and enroll in a alcohol treatment program voluntarily right now. Take some time off go to treatment and start attending AA etc. Heck you should even voluntarily do drug screens (you can get them administered if you enter along term outpatient treatment program).
This way you can present yourself to your board when the time comes for you to apply for a license and show that you have taken steps to take care of your addiction. If you come with a treatment program and several years of sobriety the board is much more likely to give you a license.
I have seen two of my med school classmates have similar issues. One did not disclose anything and ended up getting absolutely reamed by the board and ended up selling health supplements for a few years until he was given a provisional license. The other went into treatment voluntarily and showed up with two years of sobriety and letters from his shrink etc. he had no issues getting a license and just has to pee in a cup once in a while.