Questions about prereqs taken at CC

[starl3tte]

I did a search, but couldn't find answers.

I graduated from a 4 year, and then completed most of an informal postbac at a CC. These are my questions:

I took 1 year of non-calculus based physics w/ lab. The title of the course, however, is "Intro to Physics" AND assist.org shows that it is not transferable to my 4 year. For a course to be an acceptable pre-req, does it have to be transferable to a 4 year?

I've noticed that some med schools require upper div bio as a pre-req. Physio and microbio are considered upper div bio courses at my 4 year. But what if I took those courses at the CC - would they still be considered upper div?

I'll email the UC med schools and report back, in case anyone else needs to know. Just thought I'd ask you all first, though.

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[thoffen]

They grades do not have to transfer to be accepted as pre-reqs. However, some schools discriminate against community college courses.

 

[njbmd]

My guess is that you took Anatomy and Physiology at the community college which is not likely to be considered an upper division biology course at a 4-year university. Your microbiology course is likely to be a pre-health science course at the community college and likely not to be considered an upper division course.

While many medical schools do not have problems with community college coursework, most community coursework is likely not going to substitute for upper division classwork as by definition, community/junior colleges are at the sophomore level at their highest level.

Most university coursework to be considered upper division carries numbers that start with 300 (junior level) or above with 500 being considered graduate level. Some community colleges follow this numbering system and others follow a system that starts at 1000. While many community colleges have course numbers that start at 1000, that 1 signifies that the course is at the freshman level and thus a course with a 2600 would be a sophomore level course. Community college coursework numbered under 1000 are likely to be remedial-level coursework.


Have a look at Virginia Commonwealth University's course numbering for Biology on this page Undergraduate Biology VCU. Note that Anatomy is quite seperate from Physiology and not a combined course. Now compare with J.Sargent Reynolds Community College which is located across town in Richmond that uses the university course numbering system J.Sargent Reynolds Community College. None of the courses at the community college has numbers above 200 with the Anatomy and Physiology combined in one class that is likely not transferable. When we are evaluating applications, one of the first things that we look at are the course numbers and then the course descriptions.

 

[Destro96]

I'm betting different schools have differing definitions of "upper division bio."

I'm also betting that the most common one you will see is the lay one, which means a bio course (other than Gen Bio 2) with a bio prereq.

Do the A&P and micro have a prereq that you must have completed General Bio I and II? If so, they are likely to be considered upper division, especially if the CC is affiliated with a state university system.

 

[starl3tte]

To follow up, I emailed UC Davis asking if I could speak with someone to find out whether my CC pre-reqs satisfied their requirements. This is the response I received instead:

Now that you have completed the premedical courses at a community college then I suggest that you return to a 4 year college to complete 20 or more semester hours of upper-division advanced biology courses in physiology, genetics, biochemistry, molecular and/or cellular biology BEFORE applying. There are a number of medical schools that do not recognize premedical courses completed at a community college. As a result, completing the advanced biology courses will enhance your competitiveness for admission to medical school. Without them, your admission may be compromised.

 

[pam61371]

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[starl3tte]

Hi,

You might try contacting them again, and make sure they're aware that you already have a degree (right?) from your 4-year. I went to a meeting with some admissions people from OHSU, and asked them about prereqs taken at a CC long after I've finished college, and they didn't blink at the prereqs. I assumed it was because (1) they were aware of the CC's rep already (one of their outreach nursing programs is through that CC) and/or (2) I already have a degree with upper level courses indicating my ability to work at that level. As njbmd's example further suggests, it may be individual to the medical schools.

Hi! In the email, I did let them know that I had already graduated with a B.A. from a UC school. Looks like I will need further schooling in upper division bio to satisfy UC Davis's requirements, which may also be the requirements of other UC med schools (still waiting on more emails to find out, though).

Speaking of, can any fellow nontrad give me advice on how to return to a 4 year to take classes? I already have a B.A., and I don't think it is necessary to work towards a 2nd bachelor's. I'm not even sure whether my 4 year school can take me back. I will look into it more.

 

[Destro96]

I still do not understand this insane bias against CC instituations on the part of some med schools.

If anything is suspect academically, it is the bottom quartile PRIVATE 4-year schools.

Smart people have a reason to be at a CC because of the low tuition. That leads to brighter peers, higher overall level of discussion, etc.

If someone is paying $800 a credit to attend a 4-year school that is in the bottom 25% rankings wise, the only logical reason is that they didn't get in anywhere else. Moreover, it is in the faculty's best interests to pass people in the lower-level courses--otherwise, there are no students to fill the upper-division courses.

If you were going to compare CCs to 1st and 2nd quartile 4-year schools, I could understand it. It's simply asinine that they draw a line in front of CCs yet not the piss-poor private "buy your grades" instituations that grant a BA.

As stated earlier, some schools bias and others do not.

I've chosen to apply broadly. 3 of my 4 pre-reqs were CC. Orgo and biochem were at 4-yr. We shall see what happens.

 

[nsx]

From what I understand, UCD uses upper division biology/chemistry grades to level the playing field between applicants who took their pre-reqs at community colleges of varying academic rigor.

To follow up, I emailed UC Davis asking if I could speak with someone to find out whether my CC pre-reqs satisfied their requirements. This is the response I received instead:

Now that you have completed the premedical courses at a community college then I suggest that you return to a 4 year college to complete 20 or more semester hours of upper-division advanced biology courses in physiology, genetics, biochemistry, molecular and/or cellular biology BEFORE applying. There are a number of medical schools that do not recognize premedical courses completed at a community college. As a result, completing the advanced biology courses will enhance your competitiveness for admission to medical school. Without them, your admission may be compromised.

 

[starl3tte]

From what I understand, UCD uses upper division biology/chemistry grades to level the playing field between applicants who took their pre-reqs at community colleges of varying academic rigor.

Agreed. Does anyone know if any of the other UC schools are similar to UCD in this respect? I'm still waiting to hear back from them via email. I'll report back when I get them.

 

[flip26]

To follow up, I emailed UC Davis asking if I could speak with someone to find out whether my CC pre-reqs satisfied their requirements. This is the response I received instead:

Now that you have completed the premedical courses at a community college then I suggest that you return to a 4 year college to complete 20 or more semester hours of upper-division advanced biology courses in physiology, genetics, biochemistry, molecular and/or cellular biology BEFORE applying. There are a number of medical schools that do not recognize premedical courses completed at a community college. As a result, completing the advanced biology courses will enhance your competitiveness for admission to medical school. Without them, your admission may be compromised.

Very interesting and somewhat alarming recommendation that begs the question: if an applicant had done the pre-reqs at a 4 year uni, would they still recommend an additional number of "upper division" courses or not?

I am a non-trad with a 4 year lib arts degree from a LAC plus a post bacc at a 4 year research uni, and at most I will take one science class beyond the pre-reqs...I guess I am glad that I do not live in CA and do not have any desires to attend this school, but it does concern me about what med schools "really think" about post bacc applicants who have not taken an additional 20 hours of upper division science...

 

[MacVA]

I would love to know this answer to this question. It appears I will be in the same boat in a couple of years.

 

[nsx]

Very interesting and somewhat alarming recommendation that begs the question: if an applicant had done the pre-reqs at a 4 year uni, would they still recommend an additional number of "upper division" courses or not?

I am a non-trad with a 4 year lib arts degree from a LAC plus a post bacc at a 4 year research uni, and at most I will take one science class beyond the pre-reqs...I guess I am glad that I do not live in CA and do not have any desires to attend this school, but it does concern me about what med schools "really think" about post bacc applicants who have not taken an additional 20 hours of upper division science...

what's alarming about it? Makes the process a little less random.

 

[flip26]

what's alarming about it? Makes the process a little less random.

If schools have "hidden" pre-reqs in the form of 20 additional hours of upper level sci courses, then they should list them as pre-reqs for all to see...

 

[Destro96]

If they are telling you that you need 20 credits of upper-level bio if you took the pre-reqs at a CC, essentially, what they are telling you is that they don't accept post-bacc work done at a CC.

Essentially, that's at least a full year (5 classes), essentially 2/3 of the post-bacc as post-bost-bacc.

If you are in-state, the tuition may make it worthwhile to play their game. Otherwise, just apply broadly.

Again, all of this is silly considering that you don't have to do it if you take the same freshman and soph pre-reqs at a bottom-tier private 4-year school that charges $800/credit and has open admissions.

 

[starl3tte]

If they are telling you that you need 20 credits of upper-level bio if you took the pre-reqs at a CC, essentially, what they are telling you is that they don't accept post-bacc work done at a CC.

Essentially, that's at least a full year (5 classes), essentially 2/3 of the post-bacc as post-bost-bacc.

If you are in-state, the tuition may make it worthwhile to play their game. Otherwise, just apply broadly.

Again, all of this is silly considering that you don't have to do it if you take the same freshman and soph pre-reqs at a bottom-tier private 4-year school that charges $800/credit and has open admissions.

Hm, I'm not exactly sure that I wouldn't need the 20 units of upper div bio had I taken all of my lower division pre-reqs at my former 4 year university. But if that IS the case, then ugh!! I feel like I'm running in circles! I am a CA resident, so that in-state tuition is just too good to pass up. I'm not sure if it's worth waiting to apply for 2011 admission...sigh. Well, I'll see what the other UC med schools say, too.

 

[starl3tte]

I'll continue to post info in this thread as it comes trickling in. Hope you all don't mind.

Today I had an appointment with a Bio Sci counselor at UCI (the undergrad, NOT the med school...I'm still working on getting an appt. with UCI SOM's admissions office). This is what the counselor said:

Upper div bio courses: Anyone can enroll in UCI courses via Extension. It is ok to take the pre-reqs for those upper div bio courses at a CC. The upper div bio classes may be difficult to get though, because 1st priority is given to the undergrads. There is also a limit - only 8 units/quarter can be taken through Extension. You should pick out all the upper div bio courses that you are eligible for, fill out an Extension enrollment form for EACH course, then submit these forms (along with unofficial transcripts showing that you already have the pre-reqs for those courses) to the Bio Sci Department. The Dept will then enroll you in the course as space permits. This means that you may not even be officially enrolled in the course until the 2nd week. Only once you are officially enrolled do you pay the $222/unit fee. Meanwhile, just keep attending those courses and pray to God/Allah/Jebus that you get in.

Research: Very important. There may have been less opportunities for a non-science major like myself to do bench research, but that's not a good excuse. If not bench research, then do clinical research.

LORs: Again, very important. Volunteering at a hospital is only important if you get to know the doctors you work with and they can write you a LOR. Otherwise, volunteering may show that you're passionate and that you care about patients, but so what? And here is where research comes into play - you need that LOR from your professor that you do research with.

GPA/MCAT: Need at least 3.7/30

And now for the cherry on top. After looking over my GPA, transcripts, and talking about my EC's, she suggested, "I wouldn't even try for UC med schools. Have you ever thought about Ross or St. George?"

She may work with a lot of pre-med students, but she's not on the admissions of any med school, so make what you will of her comments.

 

[Destro96]

with.

GPA/MCAT: Need at least 3.7/30

And now for the cherry on top. After looking over my GPA, transcripts, and talking about my EC's, she suggested, "I wouldn't even try for UC med schools. Have you ever thought about Ross or St. George?"

She may work with a lot of pre-med students, but she's not on the admissions of any med school, so make what you will of her comments.

Your profile boasts dual 3.9 GPAs and this assclown as suggesting the islands? Did you walk out upon hearing that info?

 

[starl3tte]

Your profile boasts dual 3.9 GPAs and this assclown as suggesting the islands? Did you walk out upon hearing that info?

Ha! I did feel a bit enraged.

I could definitely tell that she thought my Spanish major and CC courses were a joke and so anything less than a 3.9 would be unacceptable.

 

[starl3tte]

Yesterday, I spoke with Admissions from UCSD's SOM over the phone. The person I spoke with clearly conveyed the idea that it is fine for a non-science major to take pre-reqs at a CC. Taking upper div bio at a 4 year can help, but it's definitely not necessary. In fact, if someone took all their pre-reqs at a CC, is a non-science major, and still scores high on the mcat (for him, that means a score of 33 and above), then that gives the Adcom an even greater reason to be impressed with the applicant.

 

[Excelsius]

I did a search, but couldn't find answers.

I graduated from a 4 year, and then completed most of an informal postbac at a CC. These are my questions:

I took 1 year of non-calculus based physics w/ lab. The title of the course, however, is "Intro to Physics" AND assist.org shows that it is not transferable to my 4 year. For a course to be an acceptable pre-req, does it have to be transferable to a 4 year?

I've noticed that some med schools require upper div bio as a pre-req. Physio and microbio are considered upper div bio courses at my 4 year. But what if I took those courses at the CC - would they still be considered upper div?

I'll email the UC med schools and report back, in case anyone else needs to know. Just thought I'd ask you all first, though.

With your numbers, you're not quite a non-trad student. Now fair or not, CC courses are not looked upon positively by many schools, even if they don't admit it. Not only that, but CalState universities aren't viewed positively either (though better than a CC). I think your problem is this: you already went to an undergrad at UCI. It shows that you had the means to go there. However, for science, you chose to "downgrade" the institution for what will appear to be to make your courses easier, especially since you had a non-science major at UCI. This is why it is going to hurt you.

My situation is actually worse in terms of classes because I took all of my pre-reqs at a CC and then some. However, the difference is that I started at a CC and now I am "upgrading" to a UC as a transfer. I know that many students at my CC said that their courses at UCLA were easier than at our particular CC, but unfortunately it might take a while (if ever) before medschools catch up.

So basically, your problem is that you are a UC student who chose to take "easier" courses at a CC. Adcoms might view it as a way to avoid difficult courses at UCI. Nevertheless, you have a great GPA and I think that you can easily get into med school. If not in CA, I am sure there are other med schools who are CC friendly. Just to be fair, there are some med schools (I think Wake Forest is one), which outright tell you that any pre-reqs taken at a CC WILL NOT count. Doesn't get any clearer than that. If I knew before what I know now I would have never gone to a CC and taken the financial hit. But luckily SDN has been very helpful, and might I add, very sobering, so that I am making a 180 degree turn. If you had been reading the threads here sooner, I am sure you wouldn't take a post bacc at a CC. Before you take any steps, you have to ask around or read about it. Med school competition is unforgiving when you make mistakes.

 

[starl3tte]

I agree. This is a good example of "MY BAD." If I had sought out advice sooner, I would have chosen a different route. I most likely would have fought to add a double major (non science + science) at the UC. I say "fought" because the bio sci dept. at my UC did not want to approve of double majors if the student would need longer than 4 years to graduate, and I definitely would have needed more than 4 years. Even for a minor - still would have needed more than 4 years. If not the double major, then I should have completed a formal post-bacc. Unfortunately, by the time I learned what a formal post-bacc program even was, I was well into my pre-reqs at the CC.

I did not start out at the UC as a pre-med. I believe I started moving towards the pre-med route sometime in my third year, but even then, I was not certain. Honestly, I probably needed that post-bacc year at the CC to give me the confidence and assurance that I was headed in the right direction. I definitely wish that I had stumbled upon this forum earlier, or that I had some great mentors to guide me. Instead, I made every decision on my own, so whether some of these "mistakes" will cost me, is completely my own fault.

However, I don't think I am out of the running for CA med schools just yet. If I can take enough upper division bio courses at a Cal State (or hopefully a UC, depends on which will accept me) and do well in them, then perhaps I can prove to the Adcoms that my CC courses should not be discounted.

With your numbers, you're not quite a non-trad student. Now fair or not, CC courses are not looked upon positively by many schools, even if they don't admit it. Not only that, but CalState universities aren't viewed positively either (though better than a CC). I think your problem is this: you already went to an undergrad at UCI. It shows that you had the means to go there. However, for science, you chose to "downgrade" the institution for what will appear to be to make your courses easier, especially since you had a non-science major at UCI. This is why it is going to hurt you.

My situation is actually worse in terms of classes because I took all of my pre-reqs at a CC and then some. However, the difference is that I started at a CC and now I am "upgrading" to a UC as a transfer. I know that many students at my CC said that their courses at UCLA were easier than at our particular CC, but unfortunately it might take a while (if ever) before medschools catch up.

So basically, your problem is that you are a UC student who chose to take "easier" courses at a CC. Adcoms might view it as a way to avoid difficult courses at UCI. Nevertheless, you have a great GPA and I think that you can easily get into med school. If not in CA, I am sure there are other med schools who are CC friendly. Just to be fair, there are some med schools (I think Wake Forest is one), which outright tell you that any pre-reqs taken at a CC WILL NOT count. Doesn't get any clearer than that. If I knew before what I know now I would have never gone to a CC and taken the financial hit. But luckily SDN has been very helpful, and might I add, very sobering, so that I am making a 180 degree turn. If you had been reading the threads here sooner, I am sure you wouldn't take a post bacc at a CC. Before you take any steps, you have to ask around or read about it. Med school competition is unforgiving when you make mistakes.