Question about my research quantity

[satdixon]

Hello everyone,

I will be starting medical school this fall at an MD school. Going into medical school, I will have 3 abstracts presented at major conferences to my name, and I expect to have at least 1 publication and 1-2 abstracts added as well. Do you think this would put me in a good position for a top 10 Internal Medicine residency. What should I be aiming for get a top 10 residency for IM? For reference, I will be going to UCF for medical school, and I plan to continue doing research there as well as a medical student.

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[ontiquicuo]

There is a lot of discussion of T10 IM program requirements in this thread:

Official Eternal IM WAMC Thread

Thought I would start this new thread for WAMC even though still early for upcoming match cycle. I am an AMG in between MS3 and MS4, on research year. I had originally wanted to do derm, but after this year of research, decided that I am more interested in internal medicine. I would like to...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Jump ahead to the last year or so to get up to date info.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

The most important part of getting a big 4 IM residency is school tier. So an applicant with 0 pubs from HMS likely beats out the applicant with 10 from a low tier school. Didn’t see the school when I originally commented. Top 10 residency from ucf, I would say aim for 15 pubs or an equivalent activity (ie starting a successful nonprofit/advocacy group). In reality, you will likely be able to achieve your goals from any academic IM residency which is achievable from all allopathic med schools

 

[Vyzzle]

The most important part of getting a big 4 IM residency is school tier. So an applicant with 0 pubs from HMS likely beats out the applicant with 10 from a low tier school. Didn’t see the school when I originally commented. Top 10 residency from ucf, I would say aim for 15 pubs or an equivalent activity (ie starting a successful nonprofit/advocacy group). In reality, you will likely be able to achieve your goals from any academic IM residency which is achievable from all allopathic med schools

If you look at the Texas Star Data, the median pubs for these schools are no where near as high as 15. It's closer to 5-6. I know they take a lot of their own, but even then folks with 15+ pubs make up such a small percent of their residents.

Here's Residency Explorer:
Residency Explorer™ Tool: Log in MGH, 5-6
Residency Explorer™ Tool: Log in Johns Hopkins, 5-6
Residency Explorer™ Tool: Log in UCSF, 5-6


If you want to get into a Top IM program do the thing every other applicant needs to do - Be top of whatever way your schools ranks itself (quartiles are common), honor your clerkships, do well on Step 2, have good research, have decent ECs (leadership/volunteer). Having 15 pubs as the above poster wouldn't hurt, but it's certainly not needed.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

If you look at the Texas Star Data, the median pubs for these schools are no where near as high as 15. It's closer to 5-6. I know they take a lot of their own, but even then folks with 15+ pubs make up such a small percent of their residents.

Here's Residency Explorer:
Residency Explorer™ Tool: Log in MGH, 5-6
Residency Explorer™ Tool: Log in Johns Hopkins, 5-6
Residency Explorer™ Tool: Log in UCSF, 5-6


If you want to get into a Top IM program do the thing every other applicant needs to do - Be top of whatever way your schools ranks itself (quartiles are common), honor your clerkships, do well on Step 2, have good research, have decent ECs (leadership/volunteer). Having 15 pubs as the above poster wouldn't hurt, but it's certainly not needed.

Yes but what percent of the rosters come from T20 medical schools? I’m sure the people from outside of that tier have much more exceptional applications to stand out

 

[Cornfed101]

Why? I ask that honestly. What do you hope to gain from a top 10 IM residency?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Hello everyone,

I will be starting medical school this fall at an MD school. Going into medical school, I will have 3 abstracts presented at major conferences to my name, and I expect to have at least 1 publication and 1-2 abstracts added as well. Do you think this would put me in a good position for a top 10 Internal Medicine residency. What should I be aiming for get a top 10 residency for IM? For reference, I will be going to UCF for medical school, and I plan to continue doing research there as well as a medical student.

I mostly agree with @Vyzzle , I think it is overly reductive to think that an overwhelming number of publications is needed (or sufficient) to get into a "top" IM program. At a certain point, yes, you will have checked that box, and yes you're in a good spot to start since you're coming in with some abstracts and a pub banked. But it's also very easy to go overboard on research in medical school and wind up not performing as well as you should have academically. You need to be in the top whatever percentile of your school, based on however they rank that, get AOA if your school does it, crush step 2, etc. If you get 20 pubs but are 2nd or 3rd quartile and have a 230 on step 2, then all that research didn't do you any good.

Additionally, I feel like nobody believes me when I say this, but... this is where research quality can really matter. Because anybody can attach themselves to some residents and churn out a bunch of crappy case reports. But if you can actually get involved as a first or second author on a meaningful publication that's worth talking about in an interview setting that is going to stand out much more than having 20 pubs where there really isn't much to say about it. Let's be honest--you're coming from a non-brand name school and will be competing against these schools' home students. You're going to need to do something meaningful to stand out, and you're not going to do that with sheer volume.

Why? I ask that honestly. What do you hope to gain from a top 10 IM residency?

This is the more important question, IMO. You can do just about any fellowship from any academic IM program. There is little benefit for aiming for a brand name residency program unless you're hoping to go into academia, and even then it probably matters more where you do your fellowship.

 

[PathNeuroIMorFM]

Additionally, I feel like nobody believes me when I say this, but... this is where research quality can really matter. Because anybody can attach themselves to some residents and churn out a bunch of crappy case reports.

Yeah, I really wish we had solid data on this. If I ask 7 different people about this, I will get 7 different answers.

Been dedicating my time to manuscripts, but for every manuscript I publish, my peers publish 2-4 case reports. Or for every poster I get, they get a case report. I'm starting to think of that old quote "PDs can't read, but they sure can count". Some people say yes, some say no, some say it depends on the specialty/location.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

Yeah, I really wish we had solid data on this. If I ask 7 different people about this, I will get 7 different answers.

Been dedicating my time to manuscripts, but for every manuscript I publish, my peers publish 2-4 case reports. Or for every poster I get, they get a case report. I'm starting to think of that old quote "PDs can't read, but they sure can count". Some people say yes, some say no, some say it depends on the specialty/location.

I'm not sure what you're applying into, but if it makes you feel better I've had 5+ friends this last year match in Top 20 programs (IM and more competitive fields) with their research averaging about ~3 case reports and a poster haha, with ofc great apps in other aspects. I'm sure your manuscripts will be looked upon favorably, you're good.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Yeah, I really wish we had solid data on this. If I ask 7 different people about this, I will get 7 different answers.

Been dedicating my time to manuscripts, but for every manuscript I publish, my peers publish 2-4 case reports. Or for every poster I get, they get a case report. I'm starting to think of that old quote "PDs can't read, but they sure can count". Some people say yes, some say no, some say it depends on the specialty/location.

It 100% depends on specialty/location, because it is a completely different ballgame and different emphasis and also reflects (for better or worse) your school's prestige. A random mid-tier ortho program may indeed be just fine with a high quantity of publications to prove that you're "committed" to the specialty. But if you want to go to an ivory tower, and you're not already in the ivory tower club, they're going to know why it's important for you to go there and what you're going to bring the program. Those PDs can definitely read. If you're just bringing a bunch of case reports, that isn't anything--they want people who come out of their programs to go on and "be somebody." Sounds snooty, but it is what it is.

I think there actually is some solid data if you want to look for it. Just for one example, let's look at the intern class at MGH: Who We Are

They report that a full 40% have a PhD or Masters--meaning they explicitly are recruiting applicants with a formalized background in research or some other quantifiable skill. Of the ones who don't have another advanced degree (and were not prelim only), here is a sampling of their backgrounds:

Harvard x4
Brown
Boston U
Yale x2
WashU x2
Vanderbilt
Hopkins
Stanford
Duke
Cornell
Penn
Penn and did a research year
Emory who spent 2 years doing research at the NIH
UNC and played minor league baseball
Worked for NASA before med school
Had a career in book publishing before med school
Other x10

Clearly, somebody from "other" is getting in (though I'm being fairly arbitrary in what counts as "other"--for example, one of those is UVA, which is obviously still a very good school). And this is just based on my skimming the bios, I'm sure those 10 likely have something in their background that helped them stand out--and a number of them, FWIW, did have a compelling background story that isn't easy to quantify. But my underlying point is that at these top programs, they really value substantive research, and if you don't have that then they tend to gravitate towards the applicants from a shiny medical school. I'm sure you could do a similar exercise at other brand name programs.

Which again leads to the question--why is it so important to go to a "top tier" IM program?

 

[pierty]

While there are exceptions, I've noticed that users who spend the most time on this site progressively become more detached from reality and increasingly neurotic. This effect is worst on those who started early (pre-med/med student).

You haven't started school yet. Get off of this site and be a med student. Work hard to become a good doctor and to find what you want out of your career without the influence of anonymous voices online. You will do great (and will be much happier).

 

[GoSpursGo]

While there are exceptions, I've noticed that users who spend the most time on this site progressively become more detached from reality and increasingly neurotic. This effect is worst on those who started early (pre-med/med student).

You haven't started school yet. Get off of this site and be a med student. Work hard to become a good doctor and to find what you want out of your career without the influence of anonymous voices online. You will do great (and will be much happier).

What specifically about the advice the OP has received do you think is "detached from reality and ... neurotic?" It's fine if you disagree, but if you just say "all the advice is bad" I'm not really sure how that is helpful either.

As several people have said, there is probably little reason why someone should have going to a "top 10" IM program as a personal goal. The OP can certainly be a good doctor and have a successful career without jumping through the hoops necessary to make that happen. But, if for whatever reason that *is* a goal for the OP, then I think the above discussion is very reasonable.

 

[pierty]

What specifically about the advice the OP has received do you think is "detached from reality and ... neurotic?" It's fine if you disagree, but if you just say "all the advice is bad" I'm not really sure how that is helpful either.

As several people have said, there is probably little reason why someone should have going to a "top 10" IM program as a personal goal. The OP can certainly be a good doctor and have a successful career without jumping through the hoops necessary to make that happen. But, if for whatever reason that *is* a goal for the OP, then I think the above discussion is very reasonable.

The advice is targeted toward this discussion but encompasses much more. Both the impetus and focus of the majority of these discussions center around obsessions of prestige and classically-conditioned fears of "losing out," regardless of what "it" is. Over time, the obsession and neuroticism produces emotional and physical burn out, fatigue, and jadedness. It hurts us, and it hurts patients.

The advice and approach is simple - cultivate your passion, learn how to work with others, and work hard - not for an extrinsic goal that others who are directionless have mimicked, but for your own personal drive and betterment. You will check off, or progress toward, the benchmarks discussed here and elsewhere, and you won't be seeking that validation or obsessing about these goal outright.

I think this advice is better suited to someone starting medical school, than focusing on specific carrots. Everyone becomes aware of these bechmarks throughout their journey, but this mindset is harder to build. My 0.02.

 

[GoSpursGo]

The advice is targeted toward this discussion but encompasses much more. Both the impetus and focus of the majority of these discussions center around obsessions of prestige and classically-conditioned fears of "losing out," regardless of what "it" is. Over time, the obsession and neuroticism produces emotional and physical burn out, fatigue, and jadedness. It hurts us, and it hurts patients.

The advice and approach is simple - cultivate your passion, learn how to work with others, and work hard - not for an extrinsic goal that others who are directionless have mimicked, but for your own personal drive and betterment. You will check off, or progress toward, the benchmarks discussed here and elsewhere, and you won't be seeking that validation or obsessing about these goal outright.

I think this advice is better suited to someone starting medical school, than focusing on specific carrots. Everyone becomes aware of these bechmarks throughout their journey, but this mindset is harder to build. My 0.02.

So what would you suggest? When someone asks "how do I get to a top tier IM residency from a non-brand name school," we should just say "that's a dumb goal, just chill out?" That doesn't seem helpful either.

I think the advice has very clearly been couched in "I'm not sure that this is a meaningful goal to pursue, but if for some reason you do want this, here is some advice."

 

[pierty]

So what would you suggest? When someone asks "how do I get to a top tier IM residency from a non-brand name school," we should just say "that's a dumb goal, just chill out?" That doesn't seem helpful either.

I think the advice has very clearly been couched in "I'm not sure that this is a meaningful goal to pursue, but if for some reason you do want this, here is some advice."

I don't necessarily think it is a meaningful or non-meaningful goal. I would think it's the context and underlying motivation that would dictate this (though "achieving TopX" without any additional context suggests the latter).

"Here are some resources: (link). I wouldn't focus on this though, especially not this early - explore specialties that are interesting, find a low-stress friend group, and work hard to be a good doctor and you'll do great, stress less, and have a much better time in school."

That would be my take. The additional back-and-forth arguments speculating over minutia metrics for program selection isn't helpful and only leans into anxiogenic tendencies.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I don't necessarily think it is a meaningful or non-meaningful goal. I would think it's the context and underlying motivation that would dictate this (though "achieving TopX" without any additional context suggests the latter).

"Here are some resources: (link). I wouldn't focus on this though, especially not this early - explore specialties that are interesting, find a low-stress friend group, and work hard to be a good doctor and you'll do great, stress less, and have a much better time in school."

That would be my take. The additional back-and-forth arguments speculating over minutia metrics for program selection isn't helpful and only leans into anxiogenic tendencies.

But… the OP asked about minutiae. And SDN is the resources 🤷‍♂️

 

[PathNeuroIMorFM]

Reddit is down so you'll have to endure my low quality memes.

I used to think ivory tower programs are overrated and people only go there for prestige, which is still a valid take. A lot of people just want the shiny name, even if that means worse working conditions or other things incompatible with their needs. It still really grinds my gears when students say they hate research more than anything, but still want to match high output academic residencies.

But there are still valid reasons for wanting to attend these programs. If you're research oriented, want a guarenteed good education/good job prospects/fellowship competitiveness, or want to carve out your specific a niche in medicine (ex: "I want to be THE pediatric expert in Björnstad Syndrome"), these are the places to be and that's okay. Whatever it is, just respect their goals and let them know that it can still work out for them if they don't make it. Good luck, OP.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

If you are going into a have an successful academic/research career, the strong programs generate a higher likelihood of achieving that success (noting that there’s still a bunch of sh-t in and old of one’s control that’s leads to a successful academic career… the primary factor being luck).

If you are going to just take care of patients, they don’t give a sh-t where you trained, they just want the fastest appointments and the quickest results so you can get that sweet, sweet 5-star Press-Ganey survey.

 

[Dr G Oogle]

This is the more important question, IMO. You can do just about any fellowship from any academic IM program. There is little benefit for aiming for a brand name residency program unless you're hoping to go into academia, and even then it probably matters more where you do your fellowship.

Probably doesn’t even matter where you do your fellowship, most hardcore academics pay a lot less then PP and academic “light” and still need to churn through patients so if you’re mildly interested in research you can probably get a job at most places. But once there you do have to produce to move up unless you want to be a clinical drone

 

[GoSpursGo]

Probably doesn’t even matter where you do your fellowship, most hardcore academics pay a lot less then PP and academic “light” and still need to churn through patients so if you’re mildly interested in research you can probably get a job at most places. But once there you do have to produce to move up unless you want to be a clinical drone

Well yes, there are no shortage of workhorse hospitalist/nocturnist gigs at academic places where you can work too hard and be paid too little and not enjoy any of the perks of academia aside from being forced to put together some bogus QI project every couple of years. Getting a shiny fellowship helps if you're really trying to do research or med ed or something else that makes jumping through the academic hoops worth it.

 

[satdixon]

Thank you all for the feedback! Just some background, I have an MPH and I plan to do academic medicine with a focus on research, which is why I’m interested in going to a top residency

 

[satdixon]

Another follow up, I grew up in Texas and would be potentially interested in coming back for residency. Do you think that would be feasible with going to an out of state school like UCF?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Another follow up, I grew up in Texas and would be potentially interested in coming back for residency. Do you think that would be feasible with going to an out of state school like UCF?

Yes