PSLF Proposed Cap of $57k - 2015 Budget

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With repayment plans that are based on income, the interest rate is irrelevant. It could be 100% APR and the amount you spend on debt service would not change. The same goes for principal... even if your loans were $5,000,000 the amount that comes out of your paycheck over your career would not change one penny.

With the current era of payments based on income, plus loan forgiveness when the loan payments are (more than likely) insufficient, the entire concept of "loan" has been turned on its head. These aren't loans anymore; these are income taxes.

In 2014, the cost to a student to attend medical school or most other professional schools is a 10% tax on income for a decade (and the 2015 proposal bumps this to 25 years). The actual amount of cash transferred from the federal government to the school is not germane to the student's finances.

Lol, the rate doesn't matter?

That's the worst financial advice ever.

Basic example, 200k loan at 5% paid over 25 years: 200k in principle., 150k in interest.

Same loan with 10% interest rate? 200k in principle and 345k in interest.

Same loan with 15% interest rate? 100k in principle and 570k in interest.

You are on the hook for that money. No matter what the dept of education says, Obama, or your IRS consultant. That's an obligation with your name on it. You're making a 100k or 200k bet on the government keeping its word. They have this program called Medicare too, that you and I pay into or anyone else who earns an income. It's there to guarantee and promise that we have healthcare into old age. Ask how many educated people think we will have Medicare which pays for and provides comprehensive healthcare in our 70s and 80s. Almost no one.

There are a few financial whizzes on SDN (whitecoatinvestor on the EM forum has a financial blog). I would tell them those 2 things and ask what their thoughts are: "the interest rate and principle don't matter."

That sounds like something a banker (or a government) would sell tell you.

These discussions aren't productive because were both trying to predict what will happen a decade for now. Therefore there's no definitive answer. Yet, I think if you educate yourself about the workings and state of the government, you will see that things like IBR and ignoring rates/principles on loans may be one of the dumbest things you could do financially. With the stroke of a pen you could lose a few hundred thousand, or years of after tax wages. Fun.

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Furthermore, these are liberal proposals - wait until we get some conservative proposals on student loan reform. All it takes is a president + congress to agree and a program like this is gone.

PSLF and the original income based repayment scheme was signed into law by George W. Bush with bipartisan support.

I would advise people to pay off their debt. Relying on the government, congress, the IRS, or dept of education isn't a good bet. These are the types of threads that I hope someone bumps 5-10 years from now.;) Not because I don't want people to save their money, but because I think the government is selling a false dream and people will get suckered into it.

The people using these income based repayments are not able to just pay off their debt, otherwise they would, especially physicians. It's not like someone who has $600,000 in student loans at 7.5% says "hmmm, I'm just not going to pay these off." It's more like, hmmm I only make $200,000 per year, and probably more like $120,000 take home pay ($10k/mo). The payment for that is going to be over $7k/mo. on a standard repayment plan. Some physicians have families and other obligations and just can't service the payments on their debt and either have to choose to default or use an income based repayment plan. You can tell someone "well you shouldn't have gotten yourself in that situation" but a lot of good that does once you are already there. And if you went into medicine knowing there was a safety net in place and took out loans with guaranteed specified repayment plans on your Master Promissory Note contract, then I don't see how that is any worse than all the other irresponsible college graduates who wasted tens of thousands of dollars for a worthless degree who can't pay their student loans.
 
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The education department has already clarified that if this proposal is passed, it would obviously not apply to current borrowers, and instead only apply to future borrowers who take out their first loan after a specified future date, because they rightly recognize that the terms to a program like this cannot be changed midstream.

actually, i believe that they've gone to great lengths not to answer this question specifically, because they don't know. what they state unequivocally, is that you will be able to continue your current payment plan.. they do not mention whether PSLF will be affected for "grandfathered" borrowers. read into that what you want, but it's clear that no one is sure how this will play out.
 
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PSLF and the original income based repayment scheme was signed into law by George W. Bush with bipartisan support.



The people using these income based repayments are not able to just pay off their debt, otherwise they would, especially physicians. It's not like someone who has $600,000 in student loans at 7.5% says "hmmm, I'm just not going to pay these off." It's more like, hmmm I only make $200,000 per year, and probably more like $120,000 take home pay ($12k/mo). The payment for that is going to be over $7k/mo. on a standard repayment plan. Some physicians have families and other obligations and just can't service the payments on their debt and either have to choose to default or use an income based repayment plan. You can tell someone "well you shouldn't have gotten yourself in that situation" but a lot of good that does once you are already there. And if you went into medicine knowing there was a safety net in place and took out loans with guaranteed specified repayment plans on your Master Promissory Note contract, then I don't see how that is any worse than all the other irresponsible college graduates who wasted tens of thousands of dollars for a worthless degree who can't pay their student loans.

By "some" do you mean less than 5%?

I know the mean loan amounts are under 200k. And I'm pretty sure the 90th percentile is below 400k.

Let's be honest for a second. If you earn 200k and owe 200-300k, you can pay that off in less than 20 years, probably less than 10. Bringing up examples of the 98th percentile of debt isn't beneficial because it's not reflective of the population. It would be the same as saying, "Oh, people owe money after medical school. There are tons of people who owe 0$." Sure, but they are in the 2nd percentile.

Anyway, I hope it all works out. I'm advising people to not count on a pipe dream though. To be continued in 2020 and beyond...
 
By "some" do you mean less than 5%?

I know the mean loan amounts are under 200k. And I'm pretty sure the 90th percentile is below 400k.

Let's be honest for a second. If you earn 200k and owe 200-300k, you can pay that off in less than 20 years, probably less than 10. Bringing up examples of the 98th percentile of debt isn't beneficial because it's not reflective of the population. It would be the same as saying, "Oh, people owe money after medical school. There are tons of people who owe 0$." Sure, but they are in the 2nd percentile.

Anyway, I hope it all works out. I'm advising people to not count on a pipe dream though. To be continued in 2020 and beyond...

I agree with you on the point that most physicians don't need help. Most physicians (maybe ~90%) should not and do not need IBR/PAYE/PSLF and wouldn't qualify for a long enough time to get anything forgiven anyways because their income over time is too large compared to their loans. If you have less than $400,000-$500,000 in loans I would say you shouldn't even need these programs, and should be able to pay them off yourself, unless you are in certain low paid primary care jobs (ie. making $160,000 or less) then the cutoff might be more like $300-$400k, depending on other factors of course such as # of dependents, spousal income and student loans, future raises, etc.

We're not talking about the averages. We're talking about the fringe of medical school graduates who need help the most. These programs weren't intended for the "average" anything. They were intended for ex-students who have large amounts of loans compared to income. Some medical school graduates fall under this umbrella: those who were only accepted to expensive DO or private medical schools, those who had to pay their whole way through undergrad and medical school on their own, those who went to an expensive undergrad, those who had kids when they were very young and supported families through school, nontrad students, those who have other grad school debt, changed careers, etc. Or, more likely, some combination of the above.

So if you're not in the "98th percentile of debt", then you don't know what it feels like to be under crushing debt and can hardly give sound advice to those who are. Your advice does hold true for the average medical student/resident though.
 
The Education Department has responded and says under this proposal, the PSLF cap would not apply to current borrowers provided they do not change to the new repayment plan options.

http://educatedrisk.org/analysis/ed...oposals-combined-incomes-pslf-caps-paye-terms


3) Will existing borrowers on legacy (pre-7/1/2015) IBR, ICR, and PAYE payment plans who choose to stay on those plans and NOT convert to the new (post-7/1/2015) PAYE plan face the $57,500 cap on PSLF?

There was still a lot of confusion about whether the proposed Public Service Loan Forgiveness cap would apply to current borrowers, even with ED's previous statements. A reader suggested rephrasing the question to make ED's response clearer (see above).

According to a U.S. Department of Education spokesperson, current borrowers will not be subject to the proposed $57,500 cap on Public Service Loan Forgiveness. This cap will only apply to new borrowers after July 1, 2015 (if legislation mirrors the proposal). Current borrowers will only be subject to the $57,500 cap if they affirmatively opt into the new PAYE program. Borrowers repaying or applying for PAYE right now will not be subject to the cap.

Based on this explanation, it would appear that a current borrower would be able to apply for PAYE with current terms after July 1, 2015 so long as the loans were disbursed prior to July 1, 2015. Thus, current borrowers would be grandfathered-in for the life of their repayment. For a borrower that has some loans prior to July 1, 2015 and some loans after that date, then it could become confusing because some of the loans would subject to the cap while others would not.
 
so let me get this straight. BOTH PSLF and PAYE will have $57.5K caps? and it will apply to any loans disbursed after July 2015?

So if you have some loans before 2015 and some after, you would be able to use some of those on the 20 year PAYE (with or without tax bomb?) while the rest would only be eligible for the 25 year PAYE (with this $57.5K cap)?
 
so let me get this straight. BOTH PSLF and PAYE will have $57.5K caps? and it will apply to any loans disbursed after July 2015?

So if you have some loans before 2015 and some after, you would be able to use some of those on the 20 year PAYE (with or without tax bomb?) while the rest would only be eligible for the 25 year PAYE (with this $57.5K cap)?

Under this proposal, the so-called "tax bomb" would no longer apply to PAYE.

It's still unclear how students "caught in the middle" would be treated. It would seem incredibly difficult to distinguish loans made to the same student. It's possible they would base it on the date of the first loan you took out, but again, that is unclear.
 
Under this proposal, the so-called "tax bomb" would no longer apply to PAYE.

It's still unclear how students "caught in the middle" would be treated. It would seem incredibly difficult to distinguish loans made to the same student. It's possible they would base it on the date of the first loan you took out, but again, that is unclear.

"Current borrowers will only be subject to the $57,500 cap if they affirmatively opt into the new PAYE program."

I am still confused. First they were saying PSLF would have this cap, and the new PAYE would last 25 years with no tax bomb. Did they also say this $57.5K cap would apply to the new PAYE?
 
If you are currently enrolled in the IBR, ICR or PAYE (20 year) program, and are hoping for PSLF forgiveness, the $57,500 cap will NOT apply.

If you are currently enrolled in IBR (25 years and 15% of discretionary income) and want to OPT IN to the new, more generous IBR (10%) or PAYE laid out in this proposal, you are changing the terms of your repayment and the $57,500 PSLF cap would apply.

Bottom line: Any current borrower who keeps their current repayment plan (IBR, ICR or PAYE) would presumably be eligible for uncapped PSLF at the end of 120 non-consecutive payments.

I know that's probably confusing but hopefully makes some kind of sense.
 
If you are currently enrolled in the IBR, ICR or PAYE (20 year) program, and are hoping for PSLF forgiveness, the $57,500 cap will NOT apply.

If you are currently enrolled in IBR (25 years and 15% of discretionary income) and want to OPT IN to the new, more generous IBR (10%) or PAYE laid out in this proposal, you are changing the terms of your repayment and the $57,500 PSLF cap would apply.

Bottom line: Any current borrower who keeps their current repayment plan (IBR, ICR or PAYE) would presumably be eligible for uncapped PSLF at the end of 120 non-consecutive payments.

I know that's probably confusing but hopefully makes some kind of sense.

That makes sense and thank you for updating us with this information. Things are looking better with these proposals. As far as those caught in the middle, I think the key hinges on the definition of "current borrower." If we look at past definitions of this term when PAYE originally rolled out, it was based on when a student took out their first loan. For example, a "new borrower" was defined as anyone without loans before Oct. 1, 2007. Everyone else was a "current borrower." If the same standards are applied to this (if it passes into law), then I think those caught in the middle will end up being spared.
 
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It wouldn't surprise me if a significant number of borrowers voluntarily switched to the new proposed payment system.

If your private physician group is not a non-profit (so no PSLF), and your loans are out of control and you aren't going to pay them off anyway, then making payments for another five years (25 vs 20) in exchange for the elimination of the tax bomb might be a smart move.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if a significant number of borrowers voluntarily switched to the new proposed payment system.

If your private physician group is not a non-profit (so no PSLF), and your loans are out of control and you aren't going to pay them off anyway, then making payments for another five years (25 vs 20) in exchange for the elimination of the tax bomb might be a smart move.

I could see that
 
Off topic a bit, but in this thread I am seeing an error in thinking regarding IBR in the case of a high-income individual (i.e. most physicians.)

Just because you participate in an income adjusted repayment plan doesn't mean you pay little or nothing on your loans. Its not a loophole that lets you get out of paying the majority of your debt. As your income goes up, your required income based payment also goes up, at some point your income based payment is either very close to or matches your standard payment, meaning there will be little or no loan balance left to be forgiven at 10 or 25 years anyway.

The subset of physicians that this will greatly benefit will be those who choose to work in legit "public service" positions after residency--in public jobs in public health primary care, community psychiatry, etc. that pay $30-60K less than they would make in most non-profit systems, and maybe even $100k less than being in a private setting.* And, those truly 'public serving' docs are STILL going to pay a good chunk of their original principle back by the end of 10 years.

Personally, I value attracting GOOD physicians to REAL public service.

*Data point: I am looking at post-residency jobs now in psychiatry. Offers I have had range from $135k for full time work in our county mental health system to $190k from a private non-profit system, and at least one private group suggesting a total compensation within a few years of >$250k. With a wife and child on the way, and anchored geographically by family to a fairly high cost of housing area, I don't see $135k pre-tax for a family of 3-4 as a worthwhile sacrifice despite being morally and ethically drawn to such a practice.
 
Pardon the lengthy post re: language in the MPN regarding PSLF

I read through a good chunk of this document:
http://www2.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/finrule/2008-4/102308a.html

which is text from the 2008 Dept of Education discussion regarding the PSLF program. Even back then they asserted that putting text in the MPN regarding PSLF was no contractual guarantee that PSLF will remain available or unaltered by congress. (see bold below)
Documenting and Maintaining Eligibility

Comment: Many commenters asked the Department to develop a clear
and simple method for the borrower, the employer, or both, to determine
annually the borrower's eligibility for public service loan forgiveness
(i.e., that the borrower's employment was with an eligible employer and
that the borrower was paying under an acceptable repayment plan). The
commenters stated that they believed strongly that borrowers should not
be left in the dark regarding whether they would qualify for loan
forgiveness by applying and documenting their eligibility after 10
years of service and repayment. The commenters noted that this approach
would require the borrower to retain pay stubs or other supporting
documentation of their employment for the entire 10-year period. The
commenters believed that this recordkeeping obligation would be too
great of a burden to impose on recent graduates. The commenters also
believed that ongoing information on the borrower's eligibility is
important for the borrower's career and financial decisions. The
commenters recommended that the Department create an on-line, password-
protected system through which qualifying employers could annually
certify the employment of borrower-employees, or otherwise provide a
reliable system for borrowers to document, confirm, and track job
eligibility. Some of these commenters also asked that we establish a
program of employer pre-certification under which the Department would
maintain an ongoing list of certified eligible employers for borrower
reference. One commenter disagreed with the Department's position in
the NPRM that implementing such a system was an operational rather than
a regulatory issue, and asked that a system for annual eligibility
verification be reflected in the regulations. Another commenter stated
that it was preferable to require a borrower to submit past pay stubs,
direct deposit salary documents, or wage and salary statements (W-2s)
rather than require the employer to provide some certifying document of
the borrower's dates of employment.
Many commenters urged the Department to incorporate the public
service loan forgiveness program as a term and condition in the
Department's Direct Loan master promissory note (MPN). The commenters
believed that making this change to the MPN would prevent Congress from
repealing the forgiveness benefit after borrowers have spent years
working to meet the eligibility requirements.

Another commenter recommended that the Direct Consolidation Loan
application and the public service loan forgiveness application be
combined so that no gap exists in the student's ability to consolidate
and then pursue public service loan forgiveness.
Other commenters representing participants in the FFEL industry
requested that the Department's procedures for eligibility
determinations and notification to borrowers who are not eligible for
loan forgiveness under this program be spelled out in greater detail
consistent with the approach in Sec. 685.216(e)(4).
Discussion: The Department believes that the way in which borrowers
apply for and document their eligibility for the public service loan
forgiveness benefit is best handled administratively. We assure the
commenters that we will continue to examine ways to assist borrowers
who are interested in, or already employed in public service, to
determine and document their eligibility for the loan forgiveness
program.
The Department will develop a form for borrowers to use to apply
for the public service loan forgiveness when the borrower believes he
or she qualifies. The proposed form will be subject to public comment
under the Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995. As with other discharge
applications the Department has developed, the form will include all
the information the borrower and the borrower's employer need regarding
the eligibility criteria, applicable definitions, and procedures for
applying for the loan forgiveness benefit. The form will include an
employer certification section and instructions regarding supporting
documentation that the Department will need to determine the borrower's

[[Page 63242]]

eligibility for the forgiveness benefit. The borrower will be able to
use this form to collect a certification from his or her employer
either annually or at the close of the 120-payment qualifying period.
The form will also be used for certification for borrowers who have
more than one employer. The Department expects the borrower to collect
and retain the necessary records that support the borrower's
eligibility for this benefit. This policy is consistent with the
general practice in the student loan programs--borrowers are always
responsible for collecting and maintaining records to support their
receipt of benefits under the programs.
With regard to incorporating a description of the public service
loan forgiveness benefit in the MPN, the Department is already taking
steps to refer to the program in the MPN and other program documents.
However, the MPN will continue to state, as it currently does, that the
terms and conditions of the loans are subject to the HEA as it is
amended in accordance with the effective date of those amendments.
Although there is no history in the program of Congress eliminating or
reducing a borrower benefit, the Department does not believe that a
reference to the public service loan forgiveness program in the MPN
would provide the borrower with a contractual right to the benefit
should Congress take action to eliminate that benefit from the HEA as
of a particular effective date.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if a significant number of borrowers voluntarily switched to the new proposed payment system.

If your private physician group is not a non-profit (so no PSLF), and your loans are out of control and you aren't going to pay them off anyway, then making payments for another five years (25 vs 20) in exchange for the elimination of the tax bomb might be a smart move.

Not to mention if you currently don't qualify for PAYE and are under IBR (15%) you could save a lot by going to the 10% plan.
 
I'm still a little unclear on what I should do when I recertify this year??
I have been making payments under IBR for the last couple of years. If I recertify this year under PAYE instead of IBR it seems to me that I wouldn't be capped under this new proposed new bill from what I've read in this thread? It seems like the most financial sense to switch to the PAYE repayment plan since the payments would be lower??
Has anyone on here switched their payment plan from IBR to PAYE?
 
I'm still a little unclear on what I should do when I recertify this year??
I have been making payments under IBR for the last couple of years. If I recertify this year under PAYE instead of IBR it seems to me that I wouldn't be capped under this new proposed new bill from what I've read in this thread? It seems like the most financial sense to switch to the PAYE repayment plan since the payments would be lower??
Has anyone on here switched their payment plan from IBR to PAYE?
This proposed cap is for student who are "new borrowers" after June 30th, 2015. So even if the proposed cap becomes a reality, as written it would not apply to you. The cap would only apply if you switched from either your old IBR plan or the old PAYE plan to the new plan, which confusingly would also be called IBR.

Switching from today's IBR plan to today's PAYE plan could result in a significant drop in the amount of money you are required to pay monthly towards loans. It would also reduce the number of years you have to pay off the loans (from IBR 25 years to PAYE 20 years), before the taxable forgiveness kicks in ("tax bomb").

Would it make financial sense to switch to PAYE over today's IBR? I suppose it would never be a bad idea. The minimum payments are lower (and you could always contribute more if you wanted). The loan length before forgiveness is shorter (this is always a good thing). The only case I can think of where switching would be a bad idea is if you switched, you spent the extra savings on frivolities, and then you got hit with a bigger tax bomb a couple decades from now. So don't do that. Be responsible with your extra monthly savings, like either invest them or put them towards your student loans.
 
I'm still a little unclear on what I should do when I recertify this year??
I have been making payments under IBR for the last couple of years. If I recertify this year under PAYE instead of IBR it seems to me that I wouldn't be capped under this new proposed new bill from what I've read in this thread? It seems like the most financial sense to switch to the PAYE repayment plan since the payments would be lower??
Has anyone on here switched their payment plan from IBR to PAYE?

Also, don't forget that any unpaid interest you currently have will automatically capitalize once you switch repayment plans.

Secondly, you'll be forced to make a one-time payment under the "standard" repayment plan before you can switch to PAYE. Don't ask me why but that's the rule. There is a loophole where individual servicers can work with borrowers to make a "reduced" standard payment, but that's up to the individual company servicing your loans.
 
http://educatedrisk.org/analysis/ed...oposals-combined-incomes-pslf-caps-paye-terms

Looks like someone from the DoE is saying current IBR/PAYE with current PSLF will be grandfathered in for all of your med school debts as long as you begin taking loans before July 1 2015 and don't opt into the proposed new IBR/PAYE/etc programs. Seems like good news to everyone in the Class of 2018 or earlier
Would tax bombs be removed for both current IBR and PAYE that we'd be grandfathered into AND the new 25-year PAYE?
 
Would tax bombs be removed for both current IBR and PAYE that we'd be grandfathered into AND the new 25-year PAYE?
This budget proposal has been about crating a new repayment plan, called the new IBR. It has never been about making changes to the old plans.

So if you stayed in the old plans you would be tax bombed. I suppose at year 19 if you didn't want the tax bomb you could switch to the new plan and pay small income-based payments for another 25 years? There are many scenarios where the monthly payments (even over 45 years of payments) are negligible yet the tax bomb is quite onerous.
 
Why is everyone freaking out about the amount forgiven being taxed? It's not, under PSLF:
http://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/public-service-loan-forgiveness-common-questions.pdf


Q3 Are loan amounts forgiven under PSLF considered taxable by the IRS?
A3 No. According to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), student loan amounts forgiven under PSLF are
not considered income for tax purposes. For more information, you should check with the IRS or your
tax advisor.

This budget proposal has been about crating a new repayment plan, called the new IBR. It has never been about making changes to the old plans.

So if you stayed in the old plans you would be tax bombed. me suppose at year 19 if you didn't want the tax bomb you could switch to the new plan and pay small income-based payments for another 25 years? There are many scenarios where the monthly payments (even over 45 years of payments) are negligible yet the tax bomb is quite onerous.

I am confused why you would not just go for PSLF and thereby avoid the tax bomb? I guess some people plan on not meeting PSLF criteria?
 
A tax bomb 20 years in the future is easy to ignore. It's the American way!

While I am several years from getting an attending job myself, I hear that getting a job in public service as a physician is not as easy as it sounds. Many times a non-profit or public service institution will contract out with a for-profit medical group to get access to physician labor, thus the physicians won't qualify for PSLF.
 
A tax bomb 20 years in the future is easy to ignore. It's the American way!

While me are several years from getting an attending job myself, me hear that getting a job in public service as a physician is not as easy as it sounds. Many times a non-profit or public service institution will contract out with a for-profit medical group to get access to physician labor, thus the physicians won't qualify for PSLF.
This, plus the new 25-year PAYE would limit negative amortization rate to 1/2 of the loan interest rate or something. On top of the tax bomb removal. The old IBR and 20-year PAYE won't be worthwhile for most.
 
This, plus the new 25-year PAYE would limit negative amortization rate to 1/2 of the loan interest rate or somethin'. On top of the tax bomb removal. The old IBR and 20-year PAYE won't be worthwhile for most.

But the current PAYE with PSLF still seems like a better deal because the forgiveness is so much better at 10 year forgiveness than 25. I don't see why we can be so certain it will be hard to work as a doctor in the public sector. At worst you will have to go job hunting and work for a hospital in which you can be hired as public sector, and you only have to do that for the 3-6 years you are an attending before your 10-year repayment is up. It seems paranoid to think hospitals will conspire to make loopholes in which all their doctors are contracted through the private sector, and why would they be so eager to help out the government close out the PSLF loophole? I must be missing something here.
 
But the current PAYE with PSLF still seems like a better deal because the forgiveness is so much better at 10 year forgiveness than 25. I don't see why we can be so certain it will be hard to work as a doctor in the public sector. At worst you will have to go job hunting and work for a hospital in which you can be hired as public sector, and you only have to do that for the 3-6 years you are an attending before your 10-year repayment is up. It seems paranoid to think hospitals will conspire to make loopholes in which all their doctors are contracted through the private sector, and why would they be so eager to help out the government close out the PSLF loophole? I must be missing something here.

It's not that hospitals are intentionally screwing physicians out of PSLF, it's just that jobs that qualify for PSLF aren't as plentiful as many think.
 
It's not that hospitals are intentionally screwing physicians out of PSLF, it's just that jobs that qualify for PSLF aren't as plentiful as many think.

I was under the impression there are many not-for-profit hospitals out there. I get that you can't do a for-profit hospital or a private practice. Still seems like a good deal, considering there are many not-for-profit hospitals out there. Are we saying now that despite that, maybe only 10% of physicians at non-profit hospitals are actually PSLF-eligible? Again, under the impression most non-profit hospitals are still employing their physicians without any gimmicks.
 
Most hospitals are not directly hiring physicians. That is the point. In fact many US states have stringent laws that make it illegal for a non-physician (for instance, a non profit hospital) to hire a physician.

A hospital can be non profit, and still contract out with a for profit physician partnership (owned by, run by, and run for physicians) to provide physician labor to the hospital. This is a very common, and in some states is the only permitted financial arrangement.
 
Most hospitals are not directly hiring physicians. That is the point. In fact many US states have stringent laws that make it illegal for a non-physician (for instance, a non profit hospital) to hire a physician.

A hospital can be non profit, and still contract out with a for profit physician partnership (owned by, run by, and run for physicians) to provide physician labor to the hospital. This is a very common, and in some states is the only permitted financial arrangement.

Well that's disappointing, but good to know. Thanks. Is it the same for teaching hospitals and academic physicians? Are academic physicians working at a university hospital "contracted out" in some way, or are they actually a genuine non-profit hire? I am just trying to figure out if it is basically impossible to qualify for PSLF, which it is starting to sound like. I imagine the VA is also a good option. I guess it's also not 100% guaranteed that as a resident you'll be working at a non-profit, so you have to consider that too---or go through the hassle of assembling your match-list to maximize your chances of getting into one
 
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Most hospitals are not directly hiring physicians. That is the point. In fact many US states have stringent laws that make it illegal for a non-physician (for instance, a non profit hospital) to hire a physician.

A hospital can be non profit, and still contract out with a for profit physician partnership (owned by, run by, and run for physicians) to provide physician labor to the hospital. This is a very common, and in some states is the only permitted financial arrangement.

I think "many US states" is probably misleading. I believe only a handful at this point have explicit laws preventing hospitals from hiring physicians.

However, it's true that people need to be aware and check their contracts to ensure the employment group is in fact at 501c3 non-profit. The easiest way is to type your employer's identification number into this website and make sure it appears. http://501c3lookup.org/

Hope this is helpful.
 
You don't necessarily have to work at a 501c3 organization. Per the PSLF website, working for the following types of employers will qualify:

A public service organization is:

• A Federal, State, local or Tribal government organization, agency or entity;

• A public child or family service agency;

• A non-profit organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code that is exempt from taxation under Section 501(a) of the Internal Revenue Code;

• A Tribal college or university; or

• A private organization (that is not a labor union or a partisan political organization) that provides at least one of the following public services:

emergency management,

military service,

public safety,

law enforcement,

public interest law services,

early childhood education (including licensed or regulated child care, Head Start, and State funded pre-kindergarten),

public service for individuals with disabilities and the elderly,

public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health support occupations, as such terms are defined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics),

public education,

public library services,

school library services, or

other school-based services.
 
I've actually been quite satisfied with the PSLF tracking process through Fed Loan Servicing. They've been on top of almost everything and have pretty helpful customer service.

I agree. I've had minimal issues. General rule of thumb, though; once you have everything set up do not touch it.
 
I’ve been paying the minimum for several years because the Public Service Forgiveness program REQUIRES me to. Therefore, the interest has skyrocketed my debt amount. Now they’re going to change the deal on me. Great.
SOURCE: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/...r-debt-forgiveness-for-students/tab/comments/


I thought you could make more than the minimum payment, and still have the payments qualify toward PSLF. This does not sound right?
 
Can anyone please confirm if the cap will be implemented for the Class of 2018. I am struggling to figure out how to deal with the loans otherwise.
 
PSLF is one of several massive loan management strategies, and the others are comparably adequate. Take the time to find out what IBR & PAYE are. studentloans.gov.

But there's no point worrying about loan repayment now. There's no way to predict details of the repayment/forgiveness programs four years out, except that there will be repayment plans, new grads will complain about them a lot, and taxpayers will feel no sadness for doctors who have $250k+ debt loads.

If you haven't been paying attention, Congress can't pass jack. So don't expect dramatic changes, good or otherwise.
 
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It is a program that sounds too good to be true. I just wish med schools didn't treat it like such a guarantee, every school I interviewed it advertised it while detailing COA. It's pretty shady to explain that yeah, you'll be hundreds of thousands in debt but that's OKAY because it'll all disappear while your doing all the cool doctor stuff you want to do anyway.
 
It is a program that sounds too good to be true. I just wish med schools didn't treat it like such a guarantee, every school I interviewed it advertised it while detailing COA. It's pretty shady to explain that yeah, you'll be hundreds of thousands in debt but that's OKAY because it'll all disappear while your doing all the cool doctor stuff you want to do anyway.

I agree, and any decent financial aid director should be telling you to not count on PSLF. The odds are it won't be around. Even if it is, the odds are still very much against most of us benefitting from it, as most physicians, even if they work in a nonprofit hospital, are not actually employed by the non-profit hospital, but rather a physicians' foundation/group. This is the case with many/most academic medical centers--the residents are paid by the academic center (non-profit--usually), but the physicians often paid by a for-profit group/foundation. So if you're hoping to benefit from PSLF, you have to really be careful and pay attention to who signs your paycheck. (Which is obvious in the case of VA's, federal/county medical centers).

That, combined with the odds of PSLF being greatly limited/diminished or outright cancelled, means any financial aid officer with part of a brain would not tell you to count on PSLF. It is certainly something to keep in mind and be aware of, but I would never, ever, ever tell someone not to worry about the COA because it'll get forgiven via PSLF. Because the odds are against that happening.

The most important rule when it comes to debt and student loans is to prevent it in the first place. I wish I had paid more attention to that in medical school. I would recommend to anyone entering medical school or about to enter to focus on what you can do now to minimize debt--don't count on any of these forgiveness programs that aren't written in stone.

The other unfortunate thing about schools saying not to worry about COA because of loan forgiveness is the exact reason I think loan forgiveness is a terrible policy--it's giving colleges yet another excuse/reason to raise tuition. They don't feel there's any reason to keep it down, and that scares me--imagine what it'll cost to send our kids to college?
 
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Has the government put out an accurate PAYE/IBR tax bomb calculator? Their documentation is so ****ing ambiguous that after reading it over I'm more confused than before.
 
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I don't understand why everyone is trying to pick apart the "official statement on Obama's 2013 proposed budget." This is not a analysis of current policy, this is purely political messaging.
I think it would serve us well to step back and look at the big picture. Put PSLF in the perspective of the current political climate in terms of domestic economic policy.

The right is looking to clamp down on federal spending and balance the books.
The left wants to redistribute wealth from the rich (200k+ individual annual income per Obama) and give to the needy.

When the media gets a hold of that one neurosurgeon making 750k annually 10 years after graduation and asking for 400k in forgiveness..
Who will carry the political water to absolve us of our medical school debts?
 
I thought you could make more than the minimum payment, and still have the payments qualify toward PSLF. This does not sound right?

Yes you can pay more than your minimum payment. I'm not sure why people are freaking out.

In residency do IBR (this is the only reasonable strategy at this point) as soon as you hit intern year. Then as an attending if you find yourself working for a PSLF qualified place pay your loans as if you were on a 10yr repayment plan. Then when you are in the final year of your PSLF stop paying extra and get your PSLF forgiveness.

If PSLF is gone by then, you have been paying off your loans, and if it still there you get a benefit of some forgiveness.
 
Anyone have any comments on the Warner-Rubio "Dynamic Student Loan Repayment Act" that was introduced a few days ago? It completely abolishes PSLF for all new loans effective July 1, 2015, among other things.
 
Anyone have any comments on the Warner-Rubio "Dynamic Student Loan Repayment Act" that was introduced a few days ago? It completely abolishes PSLF for all new loans effective July 1, 2015, among other things.
Despite the rhetoric it seems to be harder on borrowers than current plan. Only benefit to borrowers is convenience since it automatically takes income based payments from paychecks. I think those payments will also be larger than current because it does not include $10,000 of income in calculation rather than the current 150% above poverty level. It restricts the amount to be forgiven to $57,000 which is still nice for a lender to do, no private lender will do that.
 
Anyone have any comments on the Warner-Rubio "Dynamic Student Loan Repayment Act" that was introduced a few days ago? It completely abolishes PSLF for all new loans effective July 1, 2015, among other things.

I don't see this in the text of the bill, where did you get this from?
 
I don't see this in the text of the bill, where did you get this from?

It does so implicitly by establishing a new class of student loans with its own repayment/forgiveness mechanism that is not covered by CCRA 2007 (which established PSLF). PSLF only covers loans made under the William D. Ford Federal Direct Loan program.

Second page of text reads:

TERMINATION OF AUTHORITY TO MAKE FEDERAL DIRECT STAFFORD LOANS, FEDERAL DIRECT UNSUBSIDIZED STAFFORD LOANS, AND FEDERAL DIRECT PLUS LOANS TO STUDENTS UNDER THE WILLIAM D. FORD FEDERAL DIRECT LOAN PROGRAM

Effective 7/1/15 with a grandfather clause written in.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/234127671/Dynamic-Repayment-Act
 
Every thread on SDN seems to believe that physicians that work for a private employer are not eligible for the 10 year loan foregiveness. However, on the Employment Certification for PSLF (https://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/public-service-employment-certification-form.pdf)
It says under definitions-> qualifying employment

" A public service organization is:
...
A private organization (that is not a labor union or a partisan political organization) that provides at least one of the following public services:
...
public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health support occupations, as such terms are defined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics), "

"health care practitioner" as defined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics includes physicians
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes290000.htm

According to the form, physicians employed by a private group would still qualify for PSLF (as long as it was non union and non partisan which shouldn't be an issue). Am I missing something?
 
Every thread on SDN seems to believe that physicians that work for a private employer are not eligible for the 10 year loan foregiveness. However, on the Employment Certification for PSLF (https://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/public-service-employment-certification-form.pdf)
It says under definitions-> qualifying employment

" A public service organization is:
...
A private organization (that is not a labor union or a partisan political organization) that provides at least one of the following public services:
...
public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health support occupations, as such terms are defined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics), "

"health care practitioner" as defined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics includes physicians
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes290000.htm

According to the form, physicians employed by a private group would still qualify for PSLF (as long as it was non union and non partisan which shouldn't be an issue). Am I missing something?

Yes, look at section 3C of the form again. Your quote left out the word "nonprofit" in the heading. Most private physician groups, I.e your potential future employers, that contract with private hospitals to provide medical services are for-profit groups.
 
Yes, look at section 3C of the form again. Your quote left out the word "nonprofit" in the heading. Most private physician groups, I.e your potential future employers, that contract with private hospitals to provide medical services are for-profit groups.

Ah, thank you
 
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