Proposed Optometry Bills for Scope of Practice Expansion

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.....If students are really considering Optometry the following link is more appropriate:

[/SIZE].http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291041.htm

Yest it is BLS, but it looks to be more accurate and realistic than the other link by REV of Optometry.


I discuss and know what my other colleagues make and its definitely not what was in your link. 3/4ths of your class will be making between $85-90K starting and as 'Tippytoe' highilghted: That's IF you are fortunate to land a normal Full time gig.

If I told you how many ODs I know with 2-3 PT gigs and no health insurance, you'd start to tear up. Yes, some of my friends have FT gigs but its not the majority. And they range between unhappy commercial slaves seeing 40-50+ undilated exams to docs working for ophthalmologists. Amd when I say 'for' I mean refracting for them, scribing for them, billing for them, contact lens inventory & account books for them and getting lunch for the 'medical team'. No lie and no exaggeration. I can count on 1 hand how many people I graduated with that opened up cold or purchased a practice....

Need more proof? Make up a fake resume and apply for some positions. Then see if we're playing good old American policy scare tactics or not....:scared:

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The cause of decline in income can be attributed to the stagnant economy as the article explicit mentions.

For example:

"The drop in income reflects a drop in sales."

"
One solo practitioner says, “I made less in 2009 than I made in 2005 due to the downturn in the U.S. economy, and this year looks worse yet. I don’t see any daylight in the near future!”

“I lost business due to the recession, [and then] the landlord raised the rent, which required me to move,” she says. “This in turn caused many patients to decide not to travel longer to reach me.”

Moreover, the sample size of 1000 is way too small to be taken seriously.

If students are really considering Optometry the following link is more appropriate:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291041.htm

Yest it is BLS, but it looks to be more accurate and realistic than the other link by REV of Optometry.


Has to be a troll. I just don't believe her anymore -- nobody is that naive.
 
I discuss and know what my other colleagues make and its definitely not what was in your link. 3/4ths of your class will be making between $85-90K starting and as 'Tippytoe' highilghted: That's IF you are fortunate to land a normal Full time gig.

If I told you how many ODs I know with 2-3 PT gigs and no health insurance, you'd start to tear up. Yes, some of my friends have FT gigs but its not the majority. And they range between unhappy commercial slaves seeing 40-50+ undilated exams to docs working for ophthalmologists. Amd when I say 'for' I mean refracting for them, scribing for them, billing for them, contact lens inventory & account books for them and getting lunch for the 'medical team'. No lie and no exaggeration. I can count on 1 hand how many people I graduated with that opened up cold or purchased a practice....

Need more proof? Make up a fake resume and apply for some positions. Then see if we're playing good old American policy scare tactics or not....:scared:

I love the idea of making up a fake resume and "testing" it out in the market - genius!! The only thing I disagree with is 3/4 of a class starting at 85-90K. Based on the numbers I'm seeing across the country, the going rate for new grads is in the mid 70s to low 80s, the lower end of the scale being more for the few PP jobs that do come up.

"FT" commercial gigs with Luxottica companies will often give the appearance of a higher "salary," but they pay hourly. So, to all of you who think I'm making this stuff up, if you get an interview, just ask the question; "Why do you guys pay by the hour instead of a salary?" The answer you'll get is something like "Well, it just works out easier that way for administrative purposes and paperwork, but it's just the same as a salary." Actually, the reason they do that is so they can cut your hours if you don't make the cut for the start of that week. It's always fun to get a call on Wed morning that says, "Oh, we're not going to need you for the rest of the week so don't bother coming in, we're all set." Then they hire a PT doc to float around and pick up the slack if needed. I know because I've been both the FT "cut" doc and the that PT "float" doc whom everyone hates. $49/hr sounds great until you find out that you don't necessarily have 40 hours a week. You have 40 hours a week if you're making your "numbers." The minute you start to fall behind, for whatever reason, you suddenly find your hours have been cut 32, then 24, then....?? Works out really well for them.
 
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I love the idea of making up a fake resume and "testing" it out in the market - genius!! The only thing I disagree with is 3/4 of a class starting at 85-90K. Based on the numbers I'm seeing across the country, the going rate for new grads is in the mid 70s to low 80s, the lower end of the scale being more for the few PP jobs that do come up.

You're right. They'll probably get $70K + "bonus incentive". And that's the few who will be fortunate enough to secure a traditional full-time gig. Smh....

As you and others have said before, if the new grads and prospective students realize this, coupled with "retail hours" (even in private practices now), then by all means apply and best of luck..... :thumbup:
 
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha................

5-10 practicing ODs posting here you don't believe. Now you say you don't believe ONE THOUSAND practicing ODs. How many would it take?

Maybe you could pack up the VW Beetle (complete with single flower up front) daddy gave you and travel the US to each ODs office to interview them and get back with us with your report?

Have you never taken statistics? How the heck do you think surveys are done? Every time you post we laugh at you more and more. Seriously- you post just to get a reaction, right? No way you can consistently be this naive.

I think my 10 year old knows more about the world than you do at this point.

If you don't want me to correct you, through facts and real data, than don't post nonsense links such as the review of Optometry link. I think you were the one who posted it in the beginning.

The BLS study is far more accurate than some amateur study.
The review of Optometry link only takes into account the incomes of 3% of all practicing Optometrists in the USA, which is simply not good enough, to convince students to think twice about Optometry. It could be that those 3% of practicing Optometrists are just as miserable as some ODs who post here!
 
I discuss and know what my other colleagues make and its definitely not what was in your link. 3/4ths of your class will be making between $85-90K starting and as 'Tippytoe' highilghted: That's IF you are fortunate to land a normal Full time gig.

If I told you how many ODs I know with 2-3 PT gigs and no health insurance, you'd start to tear up. Yes, some of my friends have FT gigs but its not the majority. And they range between unhappy commercial slaves seeing 40-50+ undilated exams to docs working for ophthalmologists. Amd when I say 'for' I mean refracting for them, scribing for them, billing for them, contact lens inventory & account books for them and getting lunch for the 'medical team'. No lie and no exaggeration. I can count on 1 hand how many people I graduated with that opened up cold or purchased a practice....

Need more proof? Make up a fake resume and apply for some positions. Then see if we're playing good old American policy scare tactics or not....:scared:

A bunch of anecdotes isn't proof. Salary is dependent on location, so I am not sure what you mean by 3/4ths of your class will be making xy amount.

So what if they have part-time gigs? You would still make the same amount, if not more as compared to a full-time gig. The taxes, health insurance etc. would all stay the same if you were to work LEGALLY, since you would still be an independent contractor in both situations.

I have shadowed and worked for a good amount of senior ODs and they would easily offer more than your quoted amount. Its always the ODs who are doing poor that decide to make a pretty penny by leeching off the associates salary. Its better to not work for these people.

Anyways, since you are so convinced that the majority of new grads would make <$100k due to a couple of your friends making that amount, I did a quick google search and found many full-time opportunities.

Date submitted: Wed Sep 8 15:50:20 2010 Type of position associateship Compensation: $110K with bonus Date position open: January 2010 Type of practice: associateship Specialty area(s) of practice: primary care, contacts, peds, geriatrics, disease Additional information about position and/or practice: Seeking second OD for well established growing MD/OD practice with 2 locations on the southside of Atlanta. The ideal candidate will be driven and have a residency in Ocular Disease as well as be bilingual in English and Spanish. 2 years of experience is a plus. Generous Salary and benefit package. Please forward resume, salary history and 3 professional references to: [email protected]

Age of practice: 7 Years at current location: 50+ Population of area: 6 million Description of area: big city setting Name of practice: Eye Specialists of Georgia Address: 777 Cleveland Avenue, Suite 616
Atlanta, GA 30315
USA Contact person: Dr. Ahmed Nassar E-mail address: [email protected] Phone: 404-488-7244 Fax: 404-766-6260

Oh, that requires a residency and a couple years of experience? No problem, I'll just get another posting.

Date submitted: Mon Apr 25 10:24:23 2011 Type of position , Corporate Compensation: high daily guarantee plus bonus - total comp$120-150k Date position open: 5/1/2011 Type of practice: , corporate Specialty area(s) of practice: primary care, contacts Additional information about position and/or practice: Lucrative opportunity for an optometrist in our brand new Stanton Optical located in the Toledo,Ohio. Become an independent contractor for an organization established and well respected in the industry. Healthy daily guarantee plus production incentives. Full service lab on site and largest selection of frames in the city. Full and Part Time Opportunities available


Age of practice:
Years at current location:
Population of area:
Description of area:
Name of practice: Stanton Optical Address: 5701 Monroe Street
Toledo, OH 53704
Contact person: Kim Weiss E-mail address: [email protected] Phone: 302-543-5780 Fax:
But, then you would say, "oh, but you're gonna be working for an Optician!" Ok. Let me find another posting.

Date submitted: Sat Mar 13 08:53:45 2010 Type of position employment, partnership, practice for sale, assoc leading to partnership Compensation: As a associate these are some of the baseline benefits • Base pay $100,000/year • Health insurance and pension plan • Paid vacation • Bonuses based on office performance • Complimentary week stay / condo on Florida coast Date position open: 05/01/2010 Type of practice: private, partnership, associateship Specialty area(s) of practice: primary care, contacts, peds, geriatrics, disease Additional information about position and/or practice: My name is Dr. Timothy Kenkel, and I have been practicing in Cincinnati for twenty five years. I have a fantastic opportunity for an Optometrist to become an associate of my office, with the possibilities of the associate acquiring the practice in the future.
The office practices full-scope Optometry. The patient clientele ranges from toddlers to the elderly and we practice the medical model of optometry. We co-manage lasik and cataract surgery and treat anterior segment diseases. (i.e., glaucoma, uveitis, corneal ulcers). We have state-of-the-art in retinal equipment from a digital retinal camera to an Optos. Also, we have a corneal topographer to treat keratoconus and fit contact lenses. I am looking for an associate to take the practice to another level.
Age of practice: 20 Years at current location: 20 Population of area: Cincinnati - 800,000 Description of area: Cincinnati metropolitan area - suburb of Cincinnati Name of practice: Dr. Timothy P. Kenkel & Associates Address: 730 Cincinnati Mills
Cincinnnati, OH 45240
United States Contact person: Dr. Kenkel E-mail address: [email protected] Phone: 513-607-4209 Fax:

My point was that most newly graduated ODs could end up making 85-90k, but there is opportunity if one chooses to pursue as per the listings above. Anyways, it isn't about the money - if you like what you do, than the average salary would be more than plentiful. Personally, I would like a salary that would allow me to pay back my student loans in a relatively short period of time.
 
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Has to be a troll. I just don't believe her anymore -- nobody is that naive.

I'm with you. It's getting downright comical.


I'm on board. The cluelessness is increasing in its entertainment value with each post, but I don't believe anyone could actually be this oblivious. I don't know what was more laughable, the reference to the BLS data or the postings promising 120-150K in "total compensation." Hey, I found one too:

Optometrist position (FT): New grads with no experience preferred. Starting pay 185K, but you can have more if you ask so you can pay your loans back faster - we really need you so just ask. Only 4 days per week and you'll see 1 patient per hour, but if that's too many, you can cut back. All patients are private pay so there's no insurance woes. Bilingual is preferred, but it's ok if you can't even speak one language as we are desperate for an OD, hand signals will suffice. A company Lamborghini is included in the package, as are 2 fully-paid FT massage therapists who will follow you around the office and give rub downs during or after your exams. They do not do "happy endings" so don't ask, but anything else is fair game. All of this information is highly reliable because it's in a commercial optometry job posting and the quoted income potential is absolutely guaranteed. Also, you are guaranteed to get this job if you apply for it because there are not 100 more experienced ODs all applying for the same position.

Update: hey, I found some great deals on Stantonoptical.com Wow - what a value! It's always nice when respectable corporations offer awesome bargains to bolster the profession. Look out America's Best, there's a new optometric dump-heap in town.....and they're hiring!

2 pairs of glasses for just $20.00!!
2 pairs of PALs for just $99.00!! (Imagine that - a progressive for 50 bucks!)
2 Pairs of Bifocals for just 79.00!!
Buy one frame get one free WITH FREE EYE EXAM!! (totally awesome, by the way)
 
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If you don't want me to correct you, through facts and real data, than don't post nonsense links such as the review of Optometry link. I think you were the one who posted it in the beginning.

The BLS study is far more accurate than some amateur study.
The review of Optometry link only takes into account the incomes of 3% of all practicing Optometrists in the USA, which is simply not good enough, to convince students to think twice about Optometry. It could be that those 3% of practicing Optometrists are just as miserable as some ODs who post here!

I'm not trying to upset you or pick a fight, but you are wrong about this. This BLS info is just plain nonsense. Just because the Review of Optometry survey doesn't support your claims, doesn't mean it isn't valid. You have been presented with two types of evidence here, one from a survey of practitioners and the other from the experiences of real optometrists and yet you refuse to believe what is going on out there. I practice in a metro area where you would be lucky to get more than $75,000, assuming you could find full time work. I have already demonstrated that you need more money than anyone will pay you to pay your loans off in any timeframe less than 20 or 30 years. If you can't live with that, don't borrow the money. It's that simple.
 
I'm not trying to upset you or pick a fight, but you are wrong about this. This BLS info is just plain nonsense. Just because the Review of Optometry survey doesn't support your claims, doesn't mean it isn't valid. You have been presented with two types of evidence here, one from a survey of practitioners and the other from the experiences of real optometrists and yet you refuse to believe what is going on out there. I practice in a metro area where you would be lucky to get more than $75,000, assuming you could find full time work. I have already demonstrated that you need more money than anyone will pay you to pay your loans off in any timeframe less than 20 or 30 years. If you can't live with that, don't borrow the money. It's that simple.

Why is the BLS not a valid source relative to the other link? If you look at the report it is very comprehensive and goes into geographical details among other things.

The only claim I had in this thread was that most graduates will make more than $70k starting out and therefore student loans can be payed back within a short time span. The review of optometry link actually justified my claims since the average OD salary is nowhere near $70k.

I refuse to believe what some of the posters here say because they have their own little agenda. Why is it only on SDN that ODs complain about income? Like I have said, I have spoken to several docs in different practice settings and they all make close to, if not more than $100k. There are also docs who make much less, 65-70k, but they work 3 days a week. Again, I know this for a fact, so there is no point in telling me that "oh, once you graduate you will make this" etc.

I know most of what I say on this particular sub-board will not be taken into consideration by a group of grumpy ODs (not that you are) who have their own little sadistic agenda on SDN (not that you do), but if a student would like to pursue Optometry, its only fair that they are presented with all the information, not some lame anecdote of a failed OD which is constantly repeated every week lol.
 
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I'm on board. The cluelessness is increasing in its entertainment value with each post, but I don't believe anyone could actually be this oblivious. I don't know what was more laughable, the reference to the BLS data or the postings promising 120-150K in "total compensation." Hey, I found one too:

Optometrist position (FT): New grads with no experience preferred. Starting pay 185K, but you can have more if you ask so you can pay your loans back faster - we really need you so just ask. Only 4 days per week and you'll see 1 patient per hour, but if that's too many, you can cut back. All patients are private pay so there's no insurance woes. Bilingual is preferred, but it's ok if you can't even speak one language as we are desperate for an OD, hand signals will suffice. A company Lamborghini is included in the package, as are 2 fully-paid FT massage therapists who will follow you around the office and give rub downs during or after your exams. They do not do "happy endings" so don't ask, but anything else is fair game. All of this information is highly reliable because it's in a commercial optometry job posting and the quoted income potential is absolutely guaranteed. Also, you are guaranteed to get this job if you apply for it because there are not 100 more experienced ODs all applying for the same position.

Update: hey, I found some great deals on Stantonoptical.com Wow - what a value! It's always nice when respectable corporations offer awesome bargains to bolster the profession. Look out America's Best, there's a new optometric dump-heap in town.....and they're hiring!

2 pairs of glasses for just $20.00!!
2 pairs of PALs for just $99.00!! (Imagine that - a progressive for 50 bucks!)
2 Pairs of Bifocals for just 79.00!!
Buy one frame get one free WITH FREE EYE EXAM!! (totally awesome, by the way)

I am not sure what you are getting at here...

I guess you are upset that you can barely pay your student loans whilst a recent grad with a normal persona can rake in a good amount of income without much hassle? Am I right or am I right?
 
I am not sure what you are getting at here...

I guess you are upset that you can barely pay your student loans whilst a recent grad with a normal persona can rake in a good amount of income without much hassle? Am I right or am I right?

That you don't get what I'm getting at here is demonstrative of your need to research the changes that are happening in the profession. Read up, my dear. You need to learn a lot about your profession before you start off on your very long, very expensive, and unexpectedly disappointing journey.

You seem to be particularly trusting of anything the AOA tells you, whether it's direct or via the BLS garbage, so here's a little nugget for you:

http://www.aoa.org/Documents/Research Information/ExecSummaryFinal.pdf

Oddly enough, the net income of employed private practice ODs in 2009 was..........wait for it...........75K. Let's not forget that we're talking about all employed ODs in private practice, not new ones. They start a lower. Oh, and these data are from 2009, the current numbers are sure to be lower and the future numbers will probably drop as well. But somehow, you're going to wow your potential employer into thinking that he should hire you for an amount of money that will allow you to pay off your student loan debt in 5 years.

But wait.....there's more! Let's look at some numbers for employed ODs categorized by age:

under 30: 73K
30-39: 98K
40-49: 104K

I guess by the time you're in your mid 40s, you can expect to be pulling in that 6 figure salary you're so confident you'll be offered right out of school.

And wait.....still more! New employed practitioners (10 years or less) earned an average of 88K while owners with the same experience earned an average of a whopping 106K. Woohooo - good luck payin' off those loans with 88K. :luck:

The best part is, these numbers have dropped, year after year in the recent past, and they're not heading up anytime soon. The 2011 survey will be out shortly, I'm sure you'll be warmed by the results.

Keep 'em coming imemily, I love your enthusiasm, but as others have pointed out, I'm having a hard time believing anyone could be as naive as you appear to be. :laugh:
 
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The only claim I had in this thread was that most graduates will make more than $70k starting out and therefore student loans can be payed back within a short time span. The review of optometry link actually justified my claims since the average OD salary is nowhere near $70k.

Let's pretend you can get a $100,000 job straight out of optometry school. If you borrow the average student debt, which is at least $150,000 for a private school, you cannot afford to pay 20% of your gross income on student loan repayment. That's what it would take to pay the loan back in 10 years with the current interest rates.

You're proposing that you could pay your loans off in a short time span (5 to 10 years?) with a salary close to $70,000? Not possible with the kind of debt most students leave optometry school with.
 
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I refuse to believe what some of the posters here say because they have their own little agenda. Why is it only on SDN that ODs complain about income?

Hey, I made $150,000 last year in my own private practice that I started immediately after graduation 12 years ago (in a building I purchased as well). Could I do this again in 2014? I don't know. Maybe? I doubt it though.

Since then, we have a 35% increase in the number of ODs in my area (before any new schools even opened). Insurance fees have dropped approximately 30% across the board in this time. Politicians have Medicare providers in the cross hairs for additional cuts (nobody has pity for rich doctors). Plus I expect an additional 2-3 new ODs per year in my area which already has a 1:3,400 OD per population ratio (well in excess of the ideal).

As I've said before, 'anyone can do it but everyone can't'. Fact is, most graduating ODs are simply too lazy to put in the work needed to build a business from nothing. It's hard. VERY hard. Harder than anything you have ever done before (and I was in combat in Desert Storm previously). Anyone reading this can be a very succesful optometrist. Of course, anyone reading this could be a very succesful movie star too.......but the odds are just against it at this point.

I compare it to being a car salesman. Every community has a few very successful and reputable car salesmen...............and they also have hundreds of slick, loser car salesmen with plaid coats, gold chains on hairy chests and slicked back hair.

This is optometry in a nutshell. A few of us do it right. But most others just expect to show up and be paid six figures because they know how to refract and rx Tobradex and they paid a school to give them a diploma.

Most just simply are not up for the challenge it takes to succeed in optometry.........so they run to big daddy Walmart or Lenscrafters and become a refracting *****. They hate it just like the slick car salesman does standing out of the car lot for 16 hours hoping an 'up' will drive in to buy a car.

Difference is, the car salesman is probably making about the same income but doesn't owe $200,000 in loans and it didn't take him 8 years to learn how to sell a Mustang.

The future of optometry, economically, just isn't good. Facts are facts. I would have said the same thing in 1977 to a guy wanting to borrow $200,000 to open a typewriter factory. Or in 1990 to a guy wanting to open a pay phone factory. Good products in their time but........that time has simply passed.
 
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A bunch of anecdotes isn't proof. Salary is dependent on location, so I am not sure what you mean by 3/4ths of your class will be making xy amount.

So what if they have part-time gigs? You would still make the same amount, if not more as compared to a full-time gig. The taxes, health insurance etc. would all stay the same if you were to work LEGALLY, since you would still be an independent contractor in both situations.

I have shadowed and worked for a good amount of senior ODs and they would easily offer more than your quoted amount. Its always the ODs who are doing poor that decide to make a pretty penny by leeching off the associates salary. Its better to not work for these people.

Anyways, since you are so convinced that the majority of new grads would make <$100k due to a couple of your friends making that amount, I did a quick google search and found many full-time opportunities. ....................

My point was that most newly graduated ODs could end up making 85-90k, but there is opportunity if one chooses to pursue as per the listings above. Anyways, it isn't about the money - if you like what you do, than the average salary would be more than plentiful. Personally, I would like a salary that would allow me to pay back my student loans in a relatively short period of time.

:laugh:

Well, if you speak Spanish fluently (not rudimentary) then yeah you will be doing well at the first gig.

Second gig is commercial and so you will be burned out in 2yrs minimum. Let alone all clinical skills ruined by doing 5min comprehensive undilated exams!

Last gig seems like a very good starting point and possible career move, but you will be fighting with everyone for that spot so good luck :xf:

When you speak to senior docs, you have to remember that professional schooling did not cost as much as it does now. I'm not saying its impossible, just being realistic with you. How many ODs you shadow tell you the cons? Just take it for what it is and use the cons that are presented here to your advantage. Best of luck! :luck:
 
That you don't get what I'm getting at here is demonstrative of your need to research the changes that are happening in the profession. Read up, my dear. You need to learn a lot about your profession before you start off on your very long, very expensive, and unexpectedly disappointing journey.

You seem to be particularly trusting of anything the AOA tells you, whether it's direct or via the BLS garbage, so here's a little nugget for you:

http://www.aoa.org/Documents/Research Information/ExecSummaryFinal.pdf

Oddly enough, the net income of employed private practice ODs in 2009 was..........wait for it...........75K. Let's not forget that we're talking about all employed ODs in private practice, not new ones. They start a lower. Oh, and these data are from 2009, the current numbers are sure to be lower and the future numbers will probably drop as well. But somehow, you're going to wow your potential employer into thinking that he should hire you for an amount of money that will allow you to pay off your student loan debt in 5 years.

But wait.....there's more! Let's look at some numbers for employed ODs categorized by age:

under 30: 73K
30-39: 98K
40-49: 104K

I guess by the time you're in your mid 40s, you can expect to be pulling in that 6 figure salary you're so confident you'll be offered right out of school.

And wait.....still more! New employed practitioners (10 years or less) earned an average of 88K while owners with the same experience earned an average of a whopping 106K. Woohooo - good luck payin' off those loans with 88K. :luck:

The best part is, these numbers have dropped, year after year in the recent past, and they're not heading up anytime soon. The 2011 survey will be out shortly, I'm sure you'll be warmed by the results.

Keep 'em coming imemily, I love your enthusiasm, but as others have pointed out, I'm having a hard time believing anyone could be as naive as you appear to be. :laugh:

What's funny is that you try so hard to gather valuable evidence, but it actually ends up supporting my claims so well. Thanks, this would have taken me a while to find!

Anyways, the article states:

"The average net income from the
primary practice of optometry was
$130, 856 in 2009, according to a
recent AOA census of member
optometrists. Optometrists who
own all or a portion of their
practice reported an average net
income of $142,414 while
optometrists employed by others
reported average earnings of
$98,393.
(See Figure 1)"

I didn't even bother reading the rest of the report since the average earnings of employed ODs is near 100k which is exactly what I had claimed.

Good try though, I mean, this report was actually informative and much better than the usual anecdotes you spew out.
 
What's funny is that you try so hard to gather valuable evidence, but it actually ends up supporting my claims so well. Thanks, this would have taken me a while to find!

Anyways, the article states:

"The average net income from the
primary practice of optometry was
$130, 856 in 2009, according to a
recent AOA census of member
optometrists. Optometrists who
own all or a portion of their
practice reported an average net
income of $142,414 while
optometrists employed by others
reported average earnings of
$98,393.
(See Figure 1)"

I didn't even bother reading the rest of the report since the average earnings of employed ODs is near 100k which is exactly what I had claimed.

Good try though, I mean, this report was actually informative and much better than the usual anecdotes you spew out.

imemily, salary surveys are not anecdotes. Perhaps you should peruse a dictionary. They're also not hard to find for someone with an elementary familiarity with google.

I really enjoyed your underlining, although I'm not sure what you think it demonstrates in favor of your argument. Do you not understand that number applies to ALL employed ODs, not new ones? You just bolded and underlined something that refutes your claim. Take statistics and get back to me on how averages work. Look at the numbers for new employed ODs and underline those (actually, the newest they quoted was for 10 years or less, hardly new.)

As for your numbers you once again misinterpreted, you still continue to lack the understanding of the profession that is necessary to grasp what your future holds. Maybe if I use caps, it will sink in better:

THE NUMBERS THAT APPLY TO EXISTING, ESTABLISHED OPTOMETRISTS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE HAVE NO BEARING ON WHAT YOU WILL BE EARNING.

You did not graduate with an OD 15 or 20 years ago. You'll graduate 5-6 years from now. The gullibility you display is the same thing that's going to trap virtually everyone else entering the profession now. You look at inflated income surveys (like the one I just quoted) and you assume that you will be able to duplicate what older, established ODs have done - you can't. Optometry is not as it once was. You'll figure it out one day. I'm not responding to your nonsense for your sake, you're a lost cause. I'm responding to your naive optometric cluelessness because other potential applicants don't deserve anymore false information than what they're already getting form the AOA, the schools, the BLS, and online surverys from USNews. Keep trying, though. I'm sure one of these days you'll come up with a retort that will not make us all laugh inside.

I really can't wait for you to become an OD.........:laugh:
 
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Let's pretend you can get a $100,000 job straight out of optometry school. If you borrow the average student debt, which is at least $150,000 for a private school, you cannot afford to pay 20% of your gross income on student loan repayment. That's what it would take to pay the loan back in 10 years with the current interest rates.

You're proposing that you could pay your loans off in a short time span (5 to 10 years?) with a salary close to $70,000? Not possible with the kind of debt most students leave optometry school with.

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Loan Balance: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] $150,000.00 . [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] Adjusted Loan Balance: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] $150,000.00 . [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] Loan Interest Rate: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] 6.80%. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] Loan Fees: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] 0.00%. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] Loan Term: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] 10 years. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] Minimum Payment: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] $50.00 . [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]
. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Monthly Loan Payment:.[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] $1,726.20 . [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] Number of Payments: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] 120. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]
. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] Cumulative Payments: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] $207,144.85 . [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] Total Interest Paid: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA] $57,144.85

.That's 21% of your gross income going towards your student loan on a 10 year repayment plan at the current interest rate, assuming you are making the average salary. Potentially, you can reduce that down to 5 years with some planning ahead of time.

When talking to docs while I was shadowing, they made it clear that the least of my concerns was going to be paying back student loans.

Also, I believe I asked you why the BLS was misleading/not accurate....
 
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imemily, salary surveys are not anecdotes. Perhaps you should peruse a dictionary. They're also not hard to find for someone with an elementary familiarity with google.

I really enjoyed your underlining, although I'm not sure what you think it demonstrates in favor of your argument. Do you not understand that number applies to ALL employed ODs, not new ones? You just bolded and underlined something that refutes your claim. Take statistics and get back to me on how averages work. Look at the numbers for new employed ODs and underline those (actually, the newest they quoted was for 10 years or less, hardly new.)

As for your numbers you once again misinterpreted, you still continue to lack the understanding of the profession that is necessary to grasp what your future holds. Maybe if I use caps, it will sink in better:

THE NUMBERS THAT APPLY TO EXISTING, ESTABLISHED OPTOMETRISTS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE HAVE NO BEARING ON WHAT YOU WILL BE EARNING.

You did not graduate with an OD 15 or 20 years ago. You'll graduate 5-6 years from now. The gullibility you display is the same thing that's going to trap virtually everyone else entering the profession now. You look at inflated income surveys (like the one I just quoted) and you assume that you will be able to duplicate what older, established ODs have done - you can't. Optometry is not as it once was. You'll figure it out one day. I'm not responding to your nonsense for your sake, you're a lost cause. I'm responding to your naive optometric cluelessness because other potential applicants don't deserve anymore false information than what they're already getting form the AOA, the schools, the BLS, and online surverys from USNews. Keep trying, though. I'm sure one of these days you'll come up with a retort that will not make us all laugh inside.

I really can't wait for you to become an OD.........:laugh:

OK, there you go again with the whining...

The report that you posted fails to indicate whether or not the recent grads in PP Optometry in 2009 were working full-time or part-time. As such, the the numbers indicated in the study may be misleading and I think that is the case.

Moreover, I have posted real classifieds and many reports that clearly state starting incomes to be near or greater than 100k. If you don't want to acknowledge that because it is contradictory to your claims, then that is your problem.

Whats funny is that I couldn't find any listings where associates were paid $75k as you claim, without any evidence. You really need to get to work and find some sort of evidence, besides your own anecdotes.

Finally, what is absolutely amusing to me is that you joined SDN on June 6 /2011, and ever since, you have been whining and moaning, literally screaming to pre-optometry students with all sorts of underlining, bolding and colors applied to your posts to not enter the profession. I appreciate that, as do most students, but when you have no evidence to stand on you really come of as a failed OD who want's to look out for his best interests.
 
[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA].....

.That's 21% of your gross income going towards your student loan on a 10 year repayment plan at the current interest rate, assuming you are making the average salary. Potentially, you can reduce that down to 5 years with some planning ahead of time.

When talking to docs while I was shadowing, they made it clear that the least of my concerns was going to be paying back student loans.

If you commit to paying $1700 in school loans for x10yrs, I really will tip my hat to you. :thumbup:
 
If you commit to paying $1700 in school loans for x10yrs, I really will tip my hat to you. :thumbup:

Damn, that's like paying for NYC rent! So imagine paying double rent :O if you choose to live here after school.
 
Damn, that's like paying for NYC rent! So imagine paying double rent :O if you choose to live here after school.

Right? And for 10 years! Sept. 11th attacks was 10yrs ago, just for perspectives! $1700 is unrealistic. Now 15-20yr plan is more plausible. Much better than 30yrs.
 
The report that you posted fails to indicate whether or not the recent grads in PP Optometry in 2009 were working full-time or part-time. As such, the the numbers indicated in the study may be misleading and I think that is the case.

Income is income - the numbers are right in front of you.

Moreover, I have posted real classifieds and many reports that clearly state starting incomes to be near or greater than 100k. If you don't want to acknowledge that because it is contradictory to your claims, then that is your problem.

You "classifieds" show a mixture of garbage optometry and ones you won't qualify for. If you want to go turn dials at "StantonOptical" for a quoted income that won't materialize, go for it. You can start a support group for docs working there and link up with ones from America's Best.

Whats funny is that I couldn't find any listings where associates were paid $75k as you claim, without any evidence. You really need to get to work and find some sort of evidence, besides your own anecdotes.

What's that?? No PP jobs available for 75K?? How interesting?? That sounds remarkably like what many ODs on here have been saying all along. There aren't many PP associateships to go around, but those that do come up, pay very low wages - you can refer to that little AOA income survey if you doubt that fact.......75K, it's right in front of you. And yes, you're right, PT can lower the averages, as it should. Those who are working PT are likely not doing so voluntarily, but they're factored in as well! Enjoy paying your loans back with a PT wage!!

Finally, what is absolutely amusing to me is that you joined SDN on June 6 /2011, and ever since, you have been whining and moaning, literally screaming to pre-optometry students with all sorts of underlining, bolding and colors applied to your posts to not enter the profession. I appreciate that, as do most students, but when you have no evidence to stand on you really come of as a failed OD who want's to look out for his best interests.

Yes, and you joined in March and since then, you've been entertaining us all with your incredible, almost unbelievable level of cluelessness. Keep on truckin' there sweetie, one of these days, you'll come around. I just wish I could be there to see it. :D
 
Right? And for 10 years! Sept. 11th attacks was 10yrs ago, just for perspectives! $1700 is unrealistic. Now 15-20yr plan is more plausible. Much better than 30yrs.

Nah, no problem.....it's a piece of cake to pay back $3000 per month according to one of our senior pre-optometric advisors. That's nothing - what's 3 grand pre month in the scheme of things? It's practically lunch money, so 1700 is nothing to lose any sleep over. :rolleyes:
 
Income is income - the numbers are right in front of you.



You "classifieds" show a mixture of garbage optometry and ones you won't qualify for. If you want to go turn dials at "StantonOptical" for a quoted income that won't materialize, go for it. You can start a support group for docs working there and link up with ones from America's Best.



What's that?? No PP jobs available for 75K?? How interesting?? That sounds remarkably like what many ODs on here have been saying all along. There aren't many PP associateships to go around, but those that do come up, pay very low wages - you can refer to that little AOA income survey if you doubt that fact.......75K, it's right in front of you. And yes, you're right, PT can lower the averages, as it should. Those who are working PT are likely not doing so voluntarily, but they're factored in as well! Enjoy paying your loans back with a PT wage!!



Yes, and you joined in March and since then, you've been entertaining us all with your incredible, almost unbelievable level of cluelessness. Keep on truckin' there sweetie, one of these days, you'll come around. I just wish I could be there to see it. :D

Most new grads would rather "turn dials" than be miserable and tell the optometry world about it on SDN, lol.

Working part-time is a choice. If you can't find full time work than the best thing is to relocate.

If you are calling me clueless, than you are effectively calling all the senior docs clueless who have supplied me with endless amounts of information concerning Optometry. Clearly, you are blinded by your lack of success in Optometry.

Also, thanks for acknowledging that you are a failed OD. (LOL, wow).
 
This is hilarious.

I mean hilariously epic. You have a pre-optometry student arguing on what the climate of optometry is. :laugh:

We have the salary problem over the pond too. Churning out graduates and their salary offers are vile.

I've been incredibly fortunate in the full time position I was given a year ago, and given the climate wouldn't give it up for the world. Not when I'm seeing what is offered to graduates at the moment... :scared:
 
Anecdote evidence here.. :smuggrin:

The optometrists that I know working part time are certainly not doing it by choice. Some of them get paid by the amount of patients they see.

Not exactly the job security any of us were looking for when we applied to pre-optometry 8 years ago.

75K is NOT 75K, helllllooooooo taxxxeeeesssss?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
 
Most new grads would rather "turn dials" than be miserable and tell the optometry world about it on SDN, lol.

Working part-time is a choice. If you can't find full time work than the best thing is to relocate.

If you are calling me clueless, than you are effectively calling all the senior docs clueless who have supplied me with endless amounts of information concerning Optometry. Clearly, you are blinded by your lack of success in Optometry.

Also, thanks for acknowledging that you are a failed OD. (LOL, wow).

Since you are entertaining us so well, how about giving us some more info about yourself emily? Maybe it would help us understand your vast knowelege of the profession.

1. Have you ever had a real job?
2. Are you a college student or high school or perhaps junior high student?
3. Do you routinely smoke mushrooms before posting?
4. Have you really ever been in an optometry office?
5. Have you ever been wrong about anything in your life?
6. Are you now or have you ever been a child prodigy?
7. With your vast intellect, have you considered skipping optometry altogether when NASA, MIT, or the CIA or even Harvard ophthalmology could use your brain power?
8. Are you considering politics, where facts really do not matter?
9. Do you know what OD and OS mean?
10. And finally, were you really unloved as a child? Father left home?
 
This is hilarious.

I mean hilariously epic. You have a pre-optometry student arguing on what the climate of optometry is. :laugh:

We have the salary problem over the pond too. Churning out graduates and their salary offers are vile.

I've been incredibly fortunate in the full time position I was given a year ago, and given the climate wouldn't give it up for the world. Not when I'm seeing what is offered to graduates at the moment... :scared:

Lol, I know. It's amazing how ignorant some people can be.
 
This is hilarious.

I mean hilariously epic. You have a pre-optometry student arguing on what the climate of optometry is. :laugh:

We have the salary problem over the pond too. Churning out graduates and their salary offers are vile.

I've been incredibly fortunate in the full time position I was given a year ago, and given the climate wouldn't give it up for the world. Not when I'm seeing what is offered to graduates at the moment... :scared:

I'm not really arguing with anybody as I've already shattered any claims concerning Optometric salaries in another thread, with real data and not just anecdotes. I do have anecdotes that ironically further go on to support the data, which is why I have emphasized certain reports/surveys over others.

My posts are meant to be read by those students who are considering a career in Optometry. Personally, over the course of this thread, I have never been more confident than I am now about becoming an Optometrist. The positives simply outweigh the negatives, both theoretically and in practicality, and this should be clear to anyone who is deciding on Optometry.
 
Most new grads would rather "turn dials" than be miserable and tell the optometry world about it on SDN, lol.

Wrong, you haven't done either yet. I've done both.

Working part-time is a choice. If you can't find full time work than the best thing is to relocate.

This one really made me laugh - you're right, all those people racking up thousands per month on IBR because they can't find FT schedules are "doing it by choice." :laugh:

If you are calling me clueless, than you are effectively calling all the senior docs clueless who have supplied me with endless amounts of information concerning Optometry. Clearly, you are blinded by your lack of success in Optometry.

If senior docs are the ones filling your mind with this nonsense, then yes, I am absolutely calling them clueless.

Also, if you're going to use "if - then" statements, can you please try to us the word "then" as the second part of the statement? You need to spend more time studying for your English Composition course and less time writing nonsense on web forums. You also need to start working on supplemental sources of income because you'll need some other way to realize your fantasy of paying back your student loans in 5 years. Perhaps you could do telemarketing at night?


Also, thanks for acknowledging that you are a failed OD. (LOL, wow).

You're most welcome. Do you think I'm on here because I have an "illustrious" career going? The joke's on you, sweet stuff. What's most hilarious is that, as miserable as my optometry career is, it's going to be better than yours! You'll be making less than me, working more evenings and weekends than me, and best of all, you'll work in a place like StantonOptical, which makes my employer actually look respectable. As I've said before, "come on in, the water's great!!" :laugh:
 
I'm not really arguing with anybody as I've already shattered any claims concerning Optometric salaries in another thread, with real data and not just anecdotes. I do have anecdotes that ironically further go on to support the data, which is why I have emphasized certain reports/surveys over others.

My posts are meant to be read by those students who are considering a career in Optometry. Personally, over the course of this thread, I have never been more confident than I am now about becoming an Optometrist. The positives simply outweigh the negatives, both theoretically and in practicality, and this should be clear to anyone who is deciding on Optometry.

Surely (and quite simply) someone who in the field currently would have more to say about optometry than someone who isn't even in an OD program yet.

The positives outweighed the negatives for me too. And believe me I am not worried about myself and my job and my income, but I know what is going on out there for other graduates and that's the point that you seem to be ignoring.

Each year it is worse.
 
Wrong, you haven't done either yet. I've done both.



This one really made me laugh - you're right, all those people racking up thousands per month on IBR because they can't find FT schedules are "doing it by choice." :laugh:



If senior docs are the ones filling your mind with this nonsense, then yes, I am absolutely calling them clueless.

Also, if you're going to use "if - then" statements, can you please try to us the word "then" as the second part of the statement? You need to spend more time studying for your English Composition course and less time writing nonsense on web forums. You also need to start working on supplemental sources of income because you'll need some other way to realize your fantasy of paying back your student loans in 5 years. Perhaps you could do telemarketing at night?




You're most welcome. Do you think I'm on here because I have an "illustrious" career going? The joke's on you, sweet stuff. What's most hilarious is that, as miserable as my optometry career is, it's going to be better than yours! You'll be making less than me, working more evenings and weekends than me, and best of all, you'll work in a place like StantonOptical, which makes my employer actually look respectable. As I've said before, "come on in, the water's great!!" :laugh:

The point I intended to make about part-time Optometry was that it pays well enough that one can afford to work part-time if they plan ahead of time. Some of the docs I shadowed worked part-time throughout the year so they can have time to do other activities. Obviously, you would rather choose to sit by yourself in your office and troll SDN. That is besides the point however, which is that new grads can expect $100k+ which would allow them to pay back their tuition in 5-10 years.

Also, you already admitted you were a failed OD. There is really no coming back from that, so you should just cut it out.
 
The point I intended to make about part-time Optometry was that it pays well enough that one can afford to work part-time if they plan ahead of time. Some of the docs I shadowed worked part-time throughout the year so they can have time to do other activities. Obviously, you would rather choose to sit by yourself in your office and troll SDN. That is besides the point however, which is that new grads can expect $100k+ which would allow them to pay back their tuition in 5-10 years.

Also, you already admitted you were a failed OD. There is really no coming back from that, so you should just cut it out.

I'm going to close this thread down because it was supposed to be about optometric surgery but it has gone off tack into yet another tedious debate between Jason and Emily over optometric salaries.

But if anyone wants to start yet another thread (hopefully not) I'll throw one more anecdote into the mix....

Emily is saying that new grads can expect salaries of $100k plus.

In my practice, when we hire associates we do not start people off at $100k+ and I'm talking about experienced doctors.

There is NO WAY IN HELL we would ever even consider starting a new grad off at that level. We start at around $80,000 depending on how much we want the person and depending how good of a negotiator they are. ;)
 
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