Promotion to major

[KoKoOnaJo]

Army:
Do I need a residency/board certification to become a major? Can GMOs progress to major?

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[Trefoil]

Army:
Do I need a residency/board certification to become a major? Can GMOs progress to major?

I haven’t heard of GMO’s not making Major? My understanding that you make Major unless you have a disciplinary mark on your record. I believe 90% promote in the zone.

 

[TheGoose]

Don't fail height weight, don't fail pt test (if its ever for record) and go to ccc. You'll be a sure thing

 

[TheEarDoc]

I haven’t heard of GMO’s not making Major? My understanding that you make Major unless you have a disciplinary mark on your record. I believe 90% promote in the zone.

Depends on if active duty or reserves/guard. The promotion rates for guard/reserves right now are atrocious. If you don't have your milEd completed (DCC, BOLC phase II, CCC phase II) then you are most likely not getting promoted right now. And even if you have those done you still won't promote probably until above zone. I've been seeing people who have had company command, staff level jobs at BN, deployments/mobs, etc. be passed over for not having CCC phase II done. It's insane.

 

[Trefoil]

Don't fail height weight, don't fail pt test (if its ever for record) and go to ccc. You'll be a sure thing

If you are active duty, you do not have to go to CCC to make major. It seems silly, but a lot of officers haven’t even finished their training yet by the time they make major. Personally, if I owed less time, I would not go to CCC at all, but alas, I will eventually be up for LTC. If you ever want to make LTC, you need CCC and ILE will actually help. The most recent active duty numbers are ~90% promote from O3 to O4, ~80%O4 to O5, and ~80% O5 to O6.

 

[TheGoose]

If you are active duty, you do not have to go to CCC to make major. Itseems silly, but a lot of officers haven’t even finished their training yet by the time they make major. Personally, if I owed less time, I would not go to CCC at all, but alas, I will eventually be up for LTC. If you ever want to make LTC, you need CCC and ILE will actually help. The most recent active duty numbers are ~90% promote from O3 to O4, ~80%O4 to O5, and ~80% O5 to O6.

Agree. You don't have to go to CCC. But with the numbers as they have been recently, if you: Don't fail height weight, don't fail pt test (if its ever for record) and go to ccc. You'll be a sure thing.

I didnt go until i was a major and for the most part agree with you that for many folks training will be the block. No red flags and you're probably good to go. But eventually, unless you're HPSP alone with a short residency and no possible chance of staying in or doing NG/reserves it just makes sense to do it.

At this point the people have long ADSOs and who aren't just sucking it up, taking their medicine, and going to CCC are doing it to be stubborn. I just tell people not to shoot yourself in the foot and just go. Lots of time for working out, drinking, golfing, reading, TV, napping. 9 weeks out of practice as a surgeon isn't as much skill atrophy as a surgeon/radiologist/etc will get sitting in kuwait for 4.5-9 months doing nothing anyways. The new pilot hybrid versions aren't coming out anytime soon. There are better hills to die on where you actually have a chance of winning

 

[Trefoil]

Agree. You don't have to go to CCC. But with the numbers as they have been recently, if you: Don't fail height weight, don't fail pt test (if its ever for record) and go to ccc. You'll be a sure thing.

I didnt go until i was a major and for the most part agree with you that for many folks training will be the block. No red flags and you're probably good to go. But eventually, unless you're HPSP alone with a short residency and no possible chance of staying in or doing NG/reserves it just makes sense to do it.

At this point the people have long ADSOs and who aren't just sucking it up, taking their medicine, and going to CCC are doing it to be stubborn. I just tell people not to shoot yourself in the foot and just go. Lots of time for working out, drinking, golfing, reading, TV, napping. 9 weeks out of practice as a surgeon isn't as much skill atrophy as a surgeon/radiologist/etc will get sitting in kuwait for 4.5-9 months doing nothing anyways. The new pilot hybrid versions aren't coming out anytime soon. There are better hills to die on where you actually have a chance of winning

I think generally the consensus is that CCC is not needed for major in the sense that it isn’t even possible for many people to make it there in time since residency training can be that long. The people who aren’t making major have a red flag, in which case it doesn’t matter whether they go or not. That gives you roughly 5 years after making major to sign up for CCC. Assuming that you aren’t coming up for LTC board soon, you actually have plenty of time to wait. The short course will be out in 2 years. The way I see it, the worst that can happen is I’m forced to go to the 9 week course later if no 4 week course is open. Not really dying on a hill as much as giving myself the best chance to not waste an inordinate amount of time.

Also, if it really comes down to the wire and I don’t get promoted because I can’t find a course, it’s not really my loss long term, it just means I will for sure not be staying in past my ADSO.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Never met anyone who failed to make Major who wasn't a Major $&%!-up.

 

[TheEarDoc]

These are all for active duty components. The reserves/guard are not this way. Our promotion rates have been atrocious. People are being passed over in zone for 0-4 simply because they don't have CCC both phases complete. No ILE? You have zero chance of making 0-5 right now.

Glad things are better in active duty land.

 

[Trefoil]

These are all for active duty components. The reserves/guard are not this way. Our promotion rates have been atrocious. People are being passed over in zone for 0-4 simply because they don't have CCC both phases complete. No ILE? You have zero chance of making 0-5 right now.

Glad things are better in active duty land.

Yeah, something’s gotta give eventually. The active duty side is being downsized, and I think in part they want the reserve force to make up the difference in case of war, but retention would be key for that to even be a remote possibility.

 

[dr zaius]

Never met anyone who failed to make Major who wasn't a Major $&%!-up.

I've only known 2 people who didn't essentially auto-promote at 6 years as O-3. One couldn't pass height/weight, the other had some sort of investigation going on.

 

[TheEarDoc]

Yeah, something’s gotta give eventually. The active duty side is being downsized, and I think in part they want the reserve force to make up the difference in case of war, but retention would be key for that to even be a remote possibility.

Most definitely. You start passing over people with medical degrees and doctoral degrees for promotion in the guard/reserves who are doing all they should be doing and more, but promoting active duty folks with less achievements then you're going to have a major retention issue. I know several people who are popping smoke as soon as their initial contracts are up due to bonuses being removed, lack of promotion, extra work with no pay etc..

Mil med needs to get their stuff figured out quick before the next major conflict occurs or we are going to be really in a bad way!

 

[TheEarDoc]

I've only known 2 people who didn't essentially auto-promote at 6 years as O-3. One couldn't pass height/weight, the other had some sort of investigation going on.

Unfortunately I'm seeing people who are completing BOLC and actually drilling each month getting passed over in zone for 0-3 in the reserves. I have a couple of friends who had their AZ look this year and are sweating it. Shouldn't be happening, but it is!

 

[dr zaius]

Unfortunately I'm seeing people who are completing BOLC and actually drilling each month getting passed over in zone for 0-3 in the reserves. I have a couple of friends who had their AZ look this year and are sweating it. Shouldn't be happening, but it is!

I should have specified active duty. I don't know what's going on with you reserve weirdos.

 

[TheEarDoc]

I should have specified active duty. I don't know what's going on with you reserve weirdos.

Active duty seems to be doing fine with promotions. Reserves/guard is like the hunger games....

 

[armytrainingsir]

I should have specified active duty. I don't know what's going on with you reserve weirdos.

Reserve weirdos?
We do everything yall do, yet we are able to do it in our spare time!

Unfortunately I'm seeing people who are completing BOLC and actually drilling each month getting passed over in zone for 0-3 in the reserves. I have a couple of friends who had their AZ look this year and are sweating it. Shouldn't be happening, but it is!

Pretty much. I know stellar PA that was passed over. Unbelievable.

As far as promotions, the Army Reserve is seriously over strength for 06s. The board that is pending for 06 is going to be a blood bath. I cant imagine anyone will make 06 without ILE and command time. 05 will be, if it isn't already, terminal rank for clinicians in the reserves. If you want 06, ILE and 05 command will be unwritten prerequisites.

 

[Trefoil]

Reserve weirdos?
We do everything yall do, yet we are able to do it in our spare time!




Pretty much. I know stellar PA that was passed over. Unbelievable.

As far as promotions, the Army Reserve is seriously over strength for 06s. The board that is pending for 06 is going to be a blood bath. I cant imagine anyone will make 06 without ILE and command time. 05 will be, if it isn't already, terminal rank for clinicians in the reserves. If you want 06, ILE and 05 command will be unwritten

He was just being facetious. That being said, you can’t really know what it’s like to be active duty unless you are active duty. To some degree it feels like indentured servitude or prison time. The price to pay for being born without the means to pay for college. I personally can’t really imagine doing reserve duty. Once I’m out I’m out. I have enjoyed my time in the military, but I don’t really want to have to deal with the bureaucracy once I’m a free human again.

 

[pgg]

If there's one thing that 20+ years of active duty Navy service taught me well, it's that the medical corps promotion system is arbitrary, broken, and opaque.

And if you are fortunate enough to reach a point where you can opt out of it entirely, that's probably the correct decision. Once I made O5, I did exactly that - opted out. I refused to do any of the bull**** courses to make myself competitive for O6. I declined leadership positions (and upset some people along the way for not "stepping up", but they got over it). I told my seniors to give me Ps on my fitness reports, and distribute the scarce MPs and EPs to others who were still playing the game. Funnily enough, they still wasted a MP on me for my final full-year FITREP prior to retirement.

I spent about 7 years as a terminal commander, and they were honestly some of the best Navy years I had. I was free to embrace some collaterals I cared about, and I never had to spend more than 5 or 10 minutes conjuring and quantifying (usually in dollar amounts!) bullet points when "submitting input" for my fitness reports. O5 is enough rank to not get hassled over stupid things.

My advice to everyone is to step back from the default position of valuing rank. Quit tying your sense of accomplishment and self worth to your military rank. It doesn't matter. It really, really doesn't. The financial gain of an O6 retirement over O5 is trivial or even negative once you consider that accepting an on-time O6 promotion will likely require you to extend your time on active duty beyond 20 years. The lost year or two of private practice income (plus the retirement payments during that window, plus other opportunity costs in joining/establishing a civilian practice) generally exceeds the lifetime difference between an O5@20 vs O6@22 pension. And it's not close. Don't just take my word for it - do the math.

Unless your personal career goals actually are in line with doing administrative work over clinical work - then go for it! Do what you love.

The Navy (and I'm sure the other services too) will get by Just Fine if you don't make O6.

For each time I've been told it's a very objective and fair system by people who've sat on the boards, I've observed qualified people get passed over and clowns get promoted. Dozens of times I've been told that "records get promoted, not people" and sure, I guess that's true. But the people who say that seem to ignore the elephant in the room - and that is simply that our records don't even attempt to quantify our qualities or achievements as physicians.

The fact that all of my Navy fitreps have a "tactical performance" section that has to be marked "not observed" ... the fact that EO is a line item that both has equal weight to "professional expertise" and has a hard ceiling to score that can be obtained without serving in certain roles. WTF does "mission accomplishment" really mean for a doctor? The category "military bearing" has equal weight to the category that accounts for my case load and patient feedback ---- just kidding! Case load and patient feedback aren't factored in at all. I think the last time my academic performance was objectively included in a FITREP was when I was a medical student at USUHS. A meaningless, non-observed FITREP that preceded an automatic promotion to O3 at graduation. When I was an O4 resident and new attending, my 99th %-ile in-training exam and board exam scores didn't make it to my FITREPs. When I was an O5 fellow at a top 5 institution, my FITREP was non-observed.

We get ranked using a system that is barely adequate and appropriate for infantry officers.

Opt out.

 

[armytrainingsir]

He was just being facetious. That being said, you can’t really know what it’s like to be active duty unless you are active duty. To some degree it feels like indentured servitude or prison time. The price to pay for being born without the means to pay for college. I personally can’t really imagine doing reserve duty. Once I’m out I’m out. I have enjoyed my time in the military, but I don’t really want to have to deal with the bureaucracy once I’m a free human again.

Oh, I know. Just a little humor back.

10 years AD, 10 reserve.

I do know both sides, but even then, my AD time was a loooong time ago, and much better that what y’all have to put up with today.

The Reserves aren’t so bad. By the time you get pissed at the green weenie, you realize it’s Sunday afternoon. 😉

 

[Trefoil]

Oh, I know. Just a little humor back.

10 years AD, 10 reserve.

I do know both sides, but even then, my AD time was a loooong time ago, and much better that what y’all have to put up with today.

The Reserves aren’t so bad. By the time you get pissed at the green weenie, you realize it’s Sunday afternoon. 😉

I think it’s more of me just wanting to be free of the beast when I’m done. It’s been a good ride, but psychologically, switching back and forth can be tiring, so I think I’ll either get to 20 AD or won’t haha.

 

[Saddleshoes]

The Reserves aren’t so bad. By the time you get pissed at the green weenie, you realize it’s Sunday afternoon. 😉

Great Quote!!!!
Went the time came that I got pissed at the green Weenie on Saturday afternoon I resigned...
...and lived happily ever after.

 

[TheEarDoc]

Reserve weirdos?
We do everything yall do, yet we are able to do it in our spare time!




Pretty much. I know stellar PA that was passed over. Unbelievable.

As far as promotions, the Army Reserve is seriously over strength for 06s. The board that is pending for 06 is going to be a blood bath. I cant imagine anyone will make 06 without ILE and command time. 05 will be, if it isn't already, terminal rank for clinicians in the reserves. If you want 06, ILE and 05 command will be unwritten prerequisites.

Let's hope then that my ILE being completed and having S1, XO, and by then CO for company command is more than enough to get me 0-5 on the in zone look. I am wanting full bird, but the way things are looking 0-5 will be my terminal rank in MSC........

 

[TheEarDoc]

Oh, I know. Just a little humor back.

10 years AD, 10 reserve.

I do know both sides, but even then, my AD time was a loooong time ago, and much better that what y’all have to put up with today.

The Reserves aren’t so bad. By the time you get pissed at the green weenie, you realize it’s Sunday afternoon. 😉

After spending some time with my active duty counterparts recently I can honestly say other than being sent somewhere I have little choice in every 2-3 years, the work pace and work load for active duty is far less than my current full time VA job and my reserves "part time" job. I end up doing something every single day for the green machine even though I am a reservist. Constant last minute teams meetings for metrics, constant last minute training that needs done, constant last minute taskers that come out 4 days before BA that has a full schedule already and has been set in stone for a year (as required by BN so they know what we are doing) and we are just told to somehow squeeze in the required training and still stick to the training schedule.

I wanted to go full 0-6 when I hit 20, but at this point I am staring down starting ILE and with the charlie foxtrot system that is for reservists (sorry I am not doing the distance learning course where you will still send me on AT, BA each month, plus throw me on a cross leveler on some other unit's AT because their soldiers had something "come up") so it's going to take me over 2 years to do the TASS method to complete it because of course there is no true forethought on how to set a schedule up for courses. So you can sign up for phase I and do it in person, but then have to wait to take phase II for the 8 months (1 weekend per month) until the following FY because they start it so early in the FY instead of holding some classes at the last portion of FY. Then hope you can get into phase III before you hit the max time cap to complete it all.

I am fast running out of hooah. I am tired of being one of the few officers in the unit that is stepping up to take on collaterals. I am hoping maybe we get some new company grade officers who are willing to take on some collaterals so I can just focus on some major leadership roles I am still slotted with in our unit. I totally am starting to understand why many providers hit 0-4 and then just either get out or just decide to do the bare minimum and could care less about promoting further.

Sorry for the rant. I am just tired.

 

[Trefoil]

After spending some time with my active duty counterparts recently I can honestly say other than being sent somewhere I have little choice in every 2-3 years, the work pace and work load for active duty is far less than my current full time VA job and my reserves "part time" job. I end up doing something every single day for the green machine even though I am a reservist. Constant last minute teams meetings for metrics, constant last minute training that needs done, constant last minute taskers that come out 4 days before BA that has a full schedule already and has been set in stone for a year (as required by BN so they know what we are doing) and we are just told to somehow squeeze in the required training and still stick to the training schedule.

I wanted to go full 0-6 when I hit 20, but at this point I am staring down starting ILE and with the charlie foxtrot system that is for reservists (sorry I am not doing the distance learning course where you will still send me on AT, BA each month, plus throw me on a cross leveler on some other unit's AT because their soldiers had something "come up") so it's going to take me over 2 years to do the TASS method to complete it because of course there is no true forethought on how to set a schedule up for courses. So you can sign up for phase I and do it in person, but then have to wait to take phase II for the 8 months (1 weekend per month) until the following FY because they start it so early in the FY instead of holding some classes at the last portion of FY. Then hope you can get into phase III before you hit the max time cap to complete it all.

I am fast running out of hooah. I am tired of being one of the few officers in the unit that is stepping up to take on collaterals. I am hoping maybe we get some new company grade officers who are willing to take on some collaterals so I can just focus on some major leadership roles I am still slotted with in our unit. I totally am starting to understand why many providers hit 0-4 and then just either get out or just decide to do the bare minimum and could care less about promoting further.

Sorry for the rant. I am just tired.

Oh I’m sure the VA is busier than AD. That’s really a lot of the reason I want to get out. I prefer being busy with clinic rather than admin. I suspect that most people who are reserve are fulfilling more of a desire to serve or complete 20 after AD whereas most of us AD folks didn’t have many options to fund school otherwise. Sure I could have taken out idiotic loans when I was 18, but I would have been screwed if I didn’t get into medical school. Biology majors don’t really earn enough to pay off $100,000 of loans. Sure I guess I could have been an engineer instead, but I like people, so it wouldn’t have been as fulfilling. ROTC and HPSP were only voluntary to a degree, I didn’t really have many other options being a white middle class dude with parents who didn’t save any money.

I would much rather be busy clinically at a VA job than from admin nonsense. I never had a whole lot of hooah to begin with just no better options. Such is the state of the US educational system. Prices are so inflated that you would be foolish to take out huge loans. No wonder people are going to trade school instead.

I don’t doubt that reserve duty is it’s own crap sandwich, in fact, that’s why I don’t want to eat that sandwich. I’m just saying you all are technically free, whereas I’m just a cog in a giant machine.

 

[TheEarDoc]

Oh I’m sure the VA is busier than AD. That’s really a lot of the reason I want to get out. I prefer being busy with clinic rather than admin. I suspect that most people who are reserve are fulfilling more of a desire to serve or complete 20 after AD whereas most of us AD folks didn’t have many options to fund school otherwise. Sure I could have taken out idiotic loans when I was 18, but I would have been screwed if I didn’t get into medical school. Biology majors don’t really earn enough to pay off $100,000 of loans. Sure I guess I could have been an engineer instead, but I like people, so it wouldn’t have been as fulfilling. ROTC and HPSP were only voluntary to a degree, I didn’t really have many other options being a white middle class dude with parents who didn’t save any money.

I would much rather be busy clinically at a VA job than from admin nonsense. I never had a whole lot of hooah to begin with just no better options. Such is the state of the US educational system. Prices are so inflated that you would be foolish to take out huge loans. No wonder people are going to trade school instead.

I don’t doubt that reserve duty is it’s own crap sandwich, in fact, that’s why I don’t want to eat that sandwich. I’m just saying you all are technically free, whereas I’m just a cog in a giant machine.

Active duty with that work load would be a nice vacation for me. I might have to do that soon before I get too burnt out.

I started out super hooah, but it's fading fast. I would be an actual doctor now if I had known about the health scholarship program in undergrad. The cost of medical school and debt was the whole reason I didn't go to medical school. I wish I could have done just the actual major classes vs. all the liberal arts crap classes. It would have meant I could have finished 2 degrees in less than 4 years.

Reserves has it's pros and cons. Many of us are still on the hook for incentives we took (SLRP has it's own BS issues I won't get into). You pretty much pegged it. Most of us are serving because we either have that drive to serve, but can't do AD full time, or it's people who were enlisted, then got out and got advanced degrees and either miss it or just want their 20 years for retirement.

Hang in there!

 

[Trefoil]

Active duty with that work load would be a nice vacation for me. I might have to do that soon before I get too burnt out.

I started out super hooah, but it's fading fast. I would be an actual doctor now if I had known about the health scholarship program in undergrad. The cost of medical school and debt was the whole reason I didn't go to medical school. I wish I could have done just the actual major classes vs. all the liberal arts crap classes. It would have meant I could have finished 2 degrees in less than 4 years.

Reserves has it's pros and cons. Many of us are still on the hook for incentives we took (SLRP has it's own BS issues I won't get into). You pretty much pegged it. Most of us are serving because we either have that drive to serve, but can't do AD full time, or it's people who were enlisted, then got out and got advanced degrees and either miss it or just want their 20 years for retirement.

Hang in there!

On the whole, this has been a great deal, but it does show you the ugliness of income disparity very clearly. You have friends whose family paid for school, and they start making three times more than you within a few years. The way wealth begets wealth is frustrating. The military itself has been good to me and is the only reason why I am where I am. I wish the system allowed me to be busier, but it has allowed me to pay for my education and further it to a level I would not have reached otherwise. I never was much of a hooah person from the start, but I do appreciate that I had this opportunity at all. Although I don’t consider myself a willing participant, I am still grateful that I had an option at all.

 

[daddydoctor]

To answer the OP, 6 years after medical school all military physicians (including GMOs) are automatically promoted up to Major (O-4). It takes no effort on your part. Just keep your medical license and fitness test in good standing.
Promotion to O-5 is irrelevant to the OP and the vast majority of military doctors.
Even a GMO with no board certification makes twice the salary after separation from Active Duty.

 

[CCM-MD]

To answer the OP, 6 years after medical school all military physicians (including GMOs) are automatically promoted up to Major (O-4). It takes no effort on your part. Just keep your medical license and fitness test in good standing.
Promotion to O-5 is irrelevant to the OP and the vast majority of military doctors.
Even a GMO with no board certification makes twice the salary after separation from Active Duty.

Is this also the case for someone who’s joining after training? For ex., if one joins the army reserve after medschool + 3y residency + 2y fellowship + 3y attending, starting rank would be O-4? Recruiter had mentioned O-3.

 

[jurassicpark]

Is this also the case for someone who’s joining after training? For ex., if one joins the army reserve after medschool + 3y residency + 2y fellowship + 3y attending, starting rank would be O-4? Recruiter had mentioned O-3.

Depending on what branch you're looking at, each will have their own constructive credit rubric you can look up. But coming in as a civvie with no prior service, the first few years in practice are often given only half credit. So your recruiter sounds about right.

 

[DrMetal]

If there's one thing that 20+ years of active duty Navy service taught me well, it's that the medical corps promotion system is arbitrary, broken, and opaque.

I've often wondered why you don't get any feedback from the Board. 3 officers sat in a 'tank', looked at your record for 90 seconds, and made a decision. Wouldn't it be nice to know why exactly they passed you over? How about a quick blurb, or a few sentences (can be done and delivered anonymously).

Of course not. Our only recourse is to have other officers look over your records and surmise why you didn't get promoted.

It's ponderous to me that no one has every really thrown the BS flag on this whole system. Can you file an IG complaint against the whole system!?

 

[pgg]

I've often wondered why you don't get any feedback from the Board. 3 officers sat in a 'tank', looked at your record for 90 seconds, and made a decision. Wouldn't it be nice to know why exactly they passed you over? How about a quick blurb, or a few sentences (can be done and delivered anonymously).

Of course not. Our only recourse is to have other officers look over your records and surmise why you didn't get promoted.

It's ponderous to me that no one has every really thrown the BS flag on this whole system. Can you file an IG complaint against the whole system!?

I think in the grand scheme of things, the system works pretty well for the line. It measures a number of things that are of primary importance to them. And since the line is all that really matters, they'll never perceive a problem. Staff corps officers whining about the promotion system are just staff corps whiners doing their usual whining - background noise. The line's attitude toward us is frequently one that waffles between tolerance and resentment, at least until the 9-lines start coming in.

It's a system that in the past has been scrutinized and criticized for perceived or real bias and outright nepotism, so I think they've made extraordinary efforts to make it as objective and number driven as possible. In its defense, it is fair.

Of course, a blindfolded child with a dart board would be "fair" too - and in truth, the system we have that evaluates doctors without any attempt to objectively assess their clinical performance might as well be a dart board.

Anyway. As poor a system as it is, we mostly know the rules. We mostly know what things to do to improve our selection odds. Want to get promoted? Suck it up and play the game. I'm just suggesting it's OK for doctors to be deliberate and to make calculated decisions whether doing those things at all is worth the potential reward. I did the math, opted out, and was happier for it.

 

[TheEarDoc]

I think in the grand scheme of things, the system works pretty well for the line. It measures a number of things that are of primary importance to them. And since the line is all that really matters, they'll never perceive a problem. Staff corps officers whining about the promotion system are just staff corps whiners doing their usual whining - background noise. The line's attitude toward us is frequently one that waffles between tolerance and resentment, at least until the 9-lines start coming in.

It's a system that in the past has been scrutinized and criticized for perceived or real bias and outright nepotism, so I think they've made extraordinary efforts to make it as objective and number driven as possible. In its defense, it is fair.

Of course, a blindfolded child with a dart board would be "fair" too - and in truth, the system we have that evaluates doctors without any attempt to objectively assess their clinical performance might as well be a dart board.

Anyway. As poor a system as it is, we mostly know the rules. We mostly know what things to do to improve our selection odds. Want to get promoted? Suck it up and play the game. I'm just suggesting it's OK for doctors to be deliberate and to make calculated decisions whether doing those things at all is worth the potential reward. I did the math, opted out, and was happier for it.

You pretty much peg it. It's not just med doctors though who play this game, but also other professions with doctoral level degrees. Our Med Service Corps promotion rates for compo 2 and 3 are downright pathetic. Compo 2 and 3 are treated as not mattering until as you say the flag goes up and the nine lines start pouring in. When someone is playing the game and has all the military education, good evals, takes on actual leadership roles, and is functioning well even outside the military and gets passed over in zone there is a real problem there. It's my opinion this is why the reserves and guard are just bleeding with people popping smoke and leaving as soon as their obligations are up. Why kill yourself for a job that requires multiple days per month of work and pays less than half a day in the clinic at your civilian job all for a retirement you can't even draw until after age 60 and you run the risk of getting plucked from your civilian job at any time and sent anywhere. I am worried what is going to happen if something big does happen conflict wise. A lot of us are going to be doing multiple mobs and deployments due to numbers and most likely still not get promoted.

 

[DrMetal]

You pretty much peg it. It's not just med doctors though who play this game, but also other professions with doctoral level degrees. Our Med Service Corps promotion rates for compo 2 and 3 are downright pathetic. Compo 2 and 3 are treated as not mattering until as you say the flag goes up and the nine lines start pouring in. When someone is playing the game and has all the military education, good evals, takes on actual leadership roles, and is functioning well even outside the military and gets passed over in zone there is a real problem there. It's my opinion this is why the reserves and guard are just bleeding with people popping smoke and leaving as soon as their obligations are up. Why kill yourself for a job that requires multiple days per month of work and pays less than half a day in the clinic at your civilian job all for a retirement you can't even draw until after age 60 and you run the risk of getting plucked from your civilian job at any time and sent anywhere. I am worried what is going to happen if something big does happen conflict wise. A lot of us are going to be doing multiple mobs and deployments due to numbers and most likely still not get promoted.

I hate how right you all are (@pgg ) about all of the above!

 

[TheEarDoc]

I hate how right you are about all of the above!

I mean don't get me wrong I knew that I could be pulled at any time and sent where Uncle Sugar wants me to go, but promotions were not a slim as they are now in MSC for compo 2 and 3 when I commissioned either. I am lucky that I have about 5 years before I came up for 0-5 so I am hoping things change before then and I am doing all I can do to make my packets look great for the boards, but they make everything so difficult to get the required mil ed they want done.

CCC was a charlie foxtrot to get into.
ILE unless you want to do DL track is a bear to work with. The TASS option means you do phase I in person 2 weeks one FY. Then have to wait until the following FY because they don't offer any phase II options later in the FY. Then you most likely have to wait until the following FY to complete phase III and they are luckily right now giving you 36 months from when you enroll in phase I of TASS to complete all 3 phases, but I think it should be 36 months from when you complete phase I since most people are applying for phase I months before the classes actually meet just to get a seat. I am going to be super salty if I do ILE, do all the staff jobs I've done, take command of a unit, and still don't get picked up in zone for 0-5 promotion. I don't think that is out of the line to feel that way considering just 4-5 years ago if you had the basics done and had good OER's you got 0-5 at least on above the zone without stressing too much.