Pre-Allo vs Allo perceptions of medicine

[Shredder]

Hello, I live in Pre-Allo, and I'm interested in knowing how your perceptions of medicine have changed, if at all, from your premed days. Would you say that you were just right in your expectations, a little off and how, or quite mistaken in some ways? How would you describe the mentality that is prevalent in pre-allo, or more broadly, that of a typical premed vs more experienced folks like yourselves? Examples are rigor of coursework, free time, competition, maturity, naivety, interactions with peers and patients, future plans. Knowing what you now know, would you still say admissions are pretty random, or is there more to them?

This is geared toward all years of students; each year may have a different viewpoint I would think.

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[SanDiegoSOD]

Hello, I live in Pre-Allo...

Sorry to add nothing here, I just thought this was funny...

 

[worriedwell]

Hello, I live in Pre-Allo, and I'm interested in knowing how your perceptions of medicine have changed, if at all, from your premed days. Would you say that you were just right in your expectations, a little off and how, or quite mistaken in some ways? How would you describe the mentality that is prevalent in pre-allo, or more broadly, that of a typical premed vs more experienced folks like yourselves? Examples are rigor of coursework, free time, competition, maturity, naivety, interactions with peers and patients, future plans. Knowing what you now know, would you still say admissions are pretty random, or is there more to them?

This is geared toward all years of students; each year may have a different viewpoint I would think.

My perception as I approach graduating med school (and thus have lots of free time to offer sage advice to strangers) is that I have changed a lot in four years. I was very naive starting out. I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. Whereas, when I was a first year, I totally bonded with all of the interviewees. Now, their questions seemed so unimportant. They were so curious about anatomy lab and transcipts and curriculum that I just felt like I wasn't that helpful to them because all of that stuff was so useless to me and any aspect of matching into a residency and finding a specialty career that you would be happy with. The first two years are such a distant blur, its unbelievable. They matter so little its almost as if they didn't even happen. Third year, working with patients, is etched in my head though. That was when med school really started. I feel weathered and older. I swear the number of gray hairs on my head has increased by about tenfold.

Let me qualify it by saying that I went straight from college to med school and I think my experience is somewhat different than someone who took 3 years off before school (which makes me wonder if it really is just the maturing that comes with aging that has contributed to my perceptions changing so much). 3rd year of clinical medicine is a big eye opener. You learn to value life, to respect death, and to never be surprised by the worst. You remember patients' faces that you treated 2 years ago but you don't "feel" for them the way their families do. You "feel" for them the way doctors do, in a weirdly professional, but real way.

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility to be a doctor with expectations that far exceed almost any other occupation (except obvious ones like being the president). Its amazing that we are granted the ability, directly or indirectly, to subjectively make definitive decisions that are often morally in debate among the lay community. And our society doesn't agree on them, yet on a day to day basis, doctors wield their power to make these decisions based on their own value system. It is really amazing.

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

In terms of the pre-allo culture...I think people spend way too much time debating prestige and rankings and grades and checklist items for what makes them valuable as a candidate to be a doctor. I now realize that adcoms are a much wiser group than premeds and they usually have a decent idea of who is a stat stuffer and who is the real deal. By the way, there aren't enough "real deals" in my opinion to fill all of the medical schools. Thus, all med schools have a large proportion of stat stuffers. Sometimes, those stat stuffers turn out to be the real deal, but many times they do not.

I think its difficult to predict who will be able to thrive in med school and who won't. I don't mean during the first two years, I mean during the third year when it becomes a combination of stamina, intelligence, diligence, knowledge, people skills, likability, and confidence which make you succeed. Oftentimes, adcoms have their own agendas in terms of who they want and it isn't always the most objective criteria, but I don't think it is something to cry about for premeds. You choose your own destiny, but it is helped by your pedigree and you have little control over that. Get over it and make the most out of what you got. Once you are in medical school, the playing field seems to even out much more. You need to be proactive about your life and career and make success happen for yourself rather than have anybody spoonfeed you the formula to becoming a good candidate for residency. If you are the real deal, the sky is the limit for you. By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Competition still exists, the culture of med school is far from "laid back" if you are comparing to any normal standard for what is laid back. It is a brutal, grueling grinder of a life. But you start to not feel like there is any other way to live and you laugh at your friends who think that working 50 hour weeks is a tough life. You can't relate to them sometimes and they ask you about med school and you just can't come up with statements that adequately capture what you are going through. So you bond with some classmates and have intense times together (and even more intense post exam parties). You abhor some of your classmates, and are in awe of the talent of others. You feel inadequate for the first time in your life because you just aren't as capable at doing something as someone else is and you've never felt that before. You learn how to stay up for 24 hours straight and it becomes kinda hard but not as ridiculous a notion as it was when you weren't doing it ever. You sometimes feel like its easy and other times wish you were an engineer with a house and a 401K living in the burbs and going to TGIFridays with your buddies for happy hour every night.

But at the end of the day you realize that it was worth it, you would never do it again, but you're glad that you got through it. You feel proud of yourself but remain totally humble that you aren't even close to being where you need to be to treat patients autonomously. And you realize that you just finished something tough but it isn't even close to as tough and stressful as your residency is. Then you feel anxious about getting through the next phase of your painful career choice. But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

 

[sacrament]

Worriedwell's post was fantastic in general, but this part really stuck out:

I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. ... Now, their questions seemed so unimportant.

It's so true. When I hear pre-meds talk now, I have no idea what they're talking about. Or, rather, I know what they're talking about but I have no idea why they're talking about it. Going through med school is a process as transformative as a caterpillar turning into a butterfly, except several orders of magnitude less romantic.

 

[ddmo]

Worriedwell,

 

[MJB]

My perception as I approach graduating med school (and thus have lots of free time to offer sage advice to strangers) is that I have changed a lot in four years. I was very naive starting out. I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. Whereas, when I was a first year, I totally bonded with all of the interviewees. Now, their questions seemed so unimportant. They were so curious about anatomy lab and transcipts and curriculum that I just felt like I wasn't that helpful to them because all of that stuff was so useless to me and any aspect of matching into a residency and finding a specialty career that you would be happy with. The first two years are such a distant blur, its unbelievable. They matter so little its almost as if they didn't even happen. Third year, working with patients, is etched in my head though. That was when med school really started. I feel weathered and older. I swear the number of gray hairs on my head has increased by about tenfold.

Let me qualify it by saying that I went straight from college to med school and I think my experience is somewhat different than someone who took 3 years off before school (which makes me wonder if it really is just the maturing that comes with aging that has contributed to my perceptions changing so much). 3rd year of clinical medicine is a big eye opener. You learn to value life, to respect death, and to never be surprised by the worst. You remember patients' faces that you treated 2 years ago but you don't "feel" for them the way their families do. You "feel" for them the way doctors do, in a weirdly professional, but real way.

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility to be a doctor with expectations that far exceed almost any other occupation (except obvious ones like being the president). Its amazing that we are granted the ability, directly or indirectly, to subjectively make definitive decisions that are often morally in debate among the lay community. And our society doesn't agree on them, yet on a day to day basis, doctors wield their power to make these decisions based on their own value system. It is really amazing

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

In terms of the pre-allo culture...I think people spend way too much time debating prestige and rankings and grades and checklist items for what makes them valuable as a candidate to be a doctor. I now realize that adcoms are a much wiser group than premeds and they usually have a decent idea of who is a stat stuffer and who is the real deal. By the way, there aren't enough "real deals" in my opinion to fill all of the medical schools. Thus, all med schools have a large proportion of stat stuffers. Sometimes, those stat stuffers turn out to be the real deal, but many times they do not.

I think its difficult to predict who will be able to thrive in med school and who won't. I don't mean during the first two years, I mean during the third year when it becomes a combination of stamina, intelligence, diligence, knowledge, people skills, likability, and confidence which make you succeed. Oftentimes, adcoms have their own agendas in terms of who they want and it isn't always the most objective criteria, but I don't think it is something to cry about for premeds. You choose your own destiny, but it is helped by your pedigree and you have little control over that. Get over it and make the most out of what you got. Once you are in medical school, the playing field seems to even out much more. You need to be proactive about your life and career and make success happen for yourself rather than have anybody spoonfeed you the formula to becoming a good candidate for residency. If you are the real deal, the sky is the limit for you. By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Competition still exists, the culture of med school is far from "laid back" if you are comparing to any normal standard for what is laid back. It is a brutal, grueling grinder of a life. But you start to not feel like there is any other way to live and you laugh at your friends who think that working 50 hour weeks is a tough life. You can't relate to them sometimes and they ask you about med school and you just can't come up with statements that adequately capture what you are going through. So you bond with some classmates and have intense times together (and even more intense post exam parties). You abhor some of your classmates, and are in awe of the talent of others. You feel inadequate for the first time in your life because you just aren't as capable at doing something as someone else is and you've never felt that before. You learn how to stay up for 24 hours straight and it becomes kinda hard but not as ridiculous a notion as it was when you weren't doing it ever. You sometimes feel like its easy and other times wish you were an engineer with a house and a 401K living in the burbs and going to TGIFrdays with your buddies for happy hour every night.

But at the end of the day you realize that it was worth it, you would never do it again, but you're glad that you got through it. You feel proud of yourself but remain totally humble that you aren't even close to being where you need to be to treat patients autonomously. And you realize that you just finished something tough but it isn't even close to as tough and stressful as your residency is. Then you feel anxious about getting through the next phase of your painful career choice. But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

Simply awesome...

And, as a person who got out of the game after undergrad (actualy checked out sometime during my soph. year and coasted) because he didn't think he could take any more school....I've been that Engineer with the nice house and the 401K and the drinking with buddies....All I can say is that you made the right choice....believe me when I say that...I say that as someone that is trying to get back into "the game".

 

[Gut Shot]

Excellent post, worriedwell.

An Allo vs. Pre-Allo Case Report:

40 yo white female, single, two children, works as cashier and part-time waitress. No health insurance. Presents with obvious left breast changes .

Allo Response: Schedule a mammo and FNA or core biopsy. Consult heme-onc and schedule the OR if excision is warranted.

Pre-Allo Response: If I treat her will I still make over 200K a year? Is she contributing enough to society to even deserve treatment? You know, at some point the ER's are just going to have to start turning people away. But thank God she's not in Canada... then she'd REALLY be screwed.

Sorry, just having a little fun.

 

[Amorphisgirl]

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

WOW, Worriedwell. You might consider getting this whole post published. (I am not kidding.) You write very well.
Given that engineers in general are notorious for poor writing skills, you may not have been happy there. I'm still on the other side of the fence, like Shredder here, and your post gives me a lot to look forward to.

 

[labangel]

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility

Wonderful post and absolutely true!

 

[8744]

My perception as I approach graduating med school (and thus have lots of free time to offer sage advice to strangers) is that I have changed a lot in four years. I was very naive starting out. I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. Whereas, when I was a first year, I totally bonded with all of the interviewees. Now, their questions seemed so unimportant. They were so curious about anatomy lab and transcipts and curriculum that I just felt like I wasn't that helpful to them because all of that stuff was so useless to me and any aspect of matching into a residency and finding a specialty career that you would be happy with. The first two years are such a distant blur, its unbelievable. They matter so little its almost as if they didn't even happen. Third year, working with patients, is etched in my head though. That was when med school really started. I feel weathered and older. I swear the number of gray hairs on my head has increased by about tenfold.

Let me qualify it by saying that I went straight from college to med school and I think my experience is somewhat different than someone who took 3 years off before school (which makes me wonder if it really is just the maturing that comes with aging that has contributed to my perceptions changing so much). 3rd year of clinical medicine is a big eye opener. You learn to value life, to respect death, and to never be surprised by the worst. You remember patients' faces that you treated 2 years ago but you don't "feel" for them the way their families do. You "feel" for them the way doctors do, in a weirdly professional, but real way.

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility to be a doctor with expectations that far exceed almost any other occupation (except obvious ones like being the president). Its amazing that we are granted the ability, directly or indirectly, to subjectively make definitive decisions that are often morally in debate among the lay community. And our society doesn't agree on them, yet on a day to day basis, doctors wield their power to make these decisions based on their own value system. It is really amazing

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

In terms of the pre-allo culture...I think people spend way too much time debating prestige and rankings and grades and checklist items for what makes them valuable as a candidate to be a doctor. I now realize that adcoms are a much wiser group than premeds and they usually have a decent idea of who is a stat stuffer and who is the real deal. By the way, there aren't enough "real deals" in my opinion to fill all of the medical schools. Thus, all med schools have a large proportion of stat stuffers. Sometimes, those stat stuffers turn out to be the real deal, but many times they do not.

I think its difficult to predict who will be able to thrive in med school and who won't. I don't mean during the first two years, I mean during the third year when it becomes a combination of stamina, intelligence, diligence, knowledge, people skills, likability, and confidence which make you succeed. Oftentimes, adcoms have their own agendas in terms of who they want and it isn't always the most objective criteria, but I don't think it is something to cry about for premeds. You choose your own destiny, but it is helped by your pedigree and you have little control over that. Get over it and make the most out of what you got. Once you are in medical school, the playing field seems to even out much more. You need to be proactive about your life and career and make success happen for yourself rather than have anybody spoonfeed you the formula to becoming a good candidate for residency. If you are the real deal, the sky is the limit for you. By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Competition still exists, the culture of med school is far from "laid back" if you are comparing to any normal standard for what is laid back. It is a brutal, grueling grinder of a life. But you start to not feel like there is any other way to live and you laugh at your friends who think that working 50 hour weeks is a tough life. You can't relate to them sometimes and they ask you about med school and you just can't come up with statements that adequately capture what you are going through. So you bond with some classmates and have intense times together (and even more intense post exam parties). You abhor some of your classmates, and are in awe of the talent of others. You feel inadequate for the first time in your life because you just aren't as capable at doing something as someone else is and you've never felt that before. You learn how to stay up for 24 hours straight and it becomes kinda hard but not as ridiculous a notion as it was when you weren't doing it ever. You sometimes feel like its easy and other times wish you were an engineer with a house and a 401K living in the burbs and going to TGIFrdays with your buddies for happy hour every night.

But at the end of the day you realize that it was worth it, you would never do it again, but you're glad that you got through it. You feel proud of yourself but remain totally humble that you aren't even close to being where you need to be to treat patients autonomously. And you realize that you just finished something tough but it isn't even close to as tough and stressful as your residency is. Then you feel anxious about getting through the next phase of your painful career choice. But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

Absolutely the best post ever on the Allopathic Forum. It needs to be made into a "sticky" for the Pre-Allopathic Forum.

If I can add my humble fourth year, graduating in 25 days opinion I would just say that medical school was nothing like I expected. It was harder in some respects but easier in a lot of others.

First of all I didn't have to study as much as I thought I would to pass(although some might say that because I had to scramble I should have studied harder). I started first year with a full head of steam but once the initial panic wore off I tapered back considerably. In fact, I was surprised at how difficult it was to study.

I also thought that residents would be meaner than they actually are. I was only rarely treated disrespectfully in third and fourth year and the few times I was my chastisement was richly deserved. I think the days of malignant residents are almost over.

Of course I am 41-years-old and a former Marine so maybe I intimidated some of 'em or maybe after boot-camp and seven years in the fleet i just don't get worked up over some of the things that might have bugged me when I was younger.

I think it's also true that the things you thought were so important in first year become vague, incredibly quaint memories by the end of fourth year. I occasionally hear the first-years in the elevator chattering about this professor or that professor or the unfairness of an exam. Or they talk in unusually loud voices about gross lab, obviously proud to be in the fraternity of people who legally dissect human bodies. Were we ever like that? Of course we were.

I also remember the zeal that we had for student government and the vigor with which plans were made to object to administration policies which were unjust, particularly "mandatory attendance." This lasts about a year and then just fades away as most unimportant things do. Related to this is the baltant altruism of first year medical students compared to the practicality of fourth years.

When I was a first year everybody was going to do pediatrics or some other primary care specialty. After a few years of hard work and a dose of real medicine during third year people begin to look at medicine as more of a career than a calling. Nothing wrong with that, of course, just pointing out the difference. You rarely read the "I just want to help people and don't care about money" posts on the Allopathic Forum.

I believe only three other people in my class matched into Family Medicine so something happens along the way.

 

[GATORade]

My perception as I approach graduating med school (and thus have lots of free time to offer sage advice to strangers) is that I have changed a lot in four years. I was very naive starting out. I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. Whereas, when I was a first year, I totally bonded with all of the interviewees. Now, their questions seemed so unimportant. They were so curious about anatomy lab and transcipts and curriculum that I just felt like I wasn't that helpful to them because all of that stuff was so useless to me and any aspect of matching into a residency and finding a specialty career that you would be happy with. The first two years are such a distant blur, its unbelievable. They matter so little its almost as if they didn't even happen. Third year, working with patients, is etched in my head though. That was when med school really started. I feel weathered and older. I swear the number of gray hairs on my head has increased by about tenfold.

Let me qualify it by saying that I went straight from college to med school and I think my experience is somewhat different than someone who took 3 years off before school (which makes me wonder if it really is just the maturing that comes with aging that has contributed to my perceptions changing so much). 3rd year of clinical medicine is a big eye opener. You learn to value life, to respect death, and to never be surprised by the worst. You remember patients' faces that you treated 2 years ago but you don't "feel" for them the way their families do. You "feel" for them the way doctors do, in a weirdly professional, but real way.

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility to be a doctor with expectations that far exceed almost any other occupation (except obvious ones like being the president). Its amazing that we are granted the ability, directly or indirectly, to subjectively make definitive decisions that are often morally in debate among the lay community. And our society doesn't agree on them, yet on a day to day basis, doctors wield their power to make these decisions based on their own value system. It is really amazing

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

In terms of the pre-allo culture...I think people spend way too much time debating prestige and rankings and grades and checklist items for what makes them valuable as a candidate to be a doctor. I now realize that adcoms are a much wiser group than premeds and they usually have a decent idea of who is a stat stuffer and who is the real deal. By the way, there aren't enough "real deals" in my opinion to fill all of the medical schools. Thus, all med schools have a large proportion of stat stuffers. Sometimes, those stat stuffers turn out to be the real deal, but many times they do not.

I think its difficult to predict who will be able to thrive in med school and who won't. I don't mean during the first two years, I mean during the third year when it becomes a combination of stamina, intelligence, diligence, knowledge, people skills, likability, and confidence which make you succeed. Oftentimes, adcoms have their own agendas in terms of who they want and it isn't always the most objective criteria, but I don't think it is something to cry about for premeds. You choose your own destiny, but it is helped by your pedigree and you have little control over that. Get over it and make the most out of what you got. Once you are in medical school, the playing field seems to even out much more. You need to be proactive about your life and career and make success happen for yourself rather than have anybody spoonfeed you the formula to becoming a good candidate for residency. If you are the real deal, the sky is the limit for you. By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Competition still exists, the culture of med school is far from "laid back" if you are comparing to any normal standard for what is laid back. It is a brutal, grueling grinder of a life. But you start to not feel like there is any other way to live and you laugh at your friends who think that working 50 hour weeks is a tough life. You can't relate to them sometimes and they ask you about med school and you just can't come up with statements that adequately capture what you are going through. So you bond with some classmates and have intense times together (and even more intense post exam parties). You abhor some of your classmates, and are in awe of the talent of others. You feel inadequate for the first time in your life because you just aren't as capable at doing something as someone else is and you've never felt that before. You learn how to stay up for 24 hours straight and it becomes kinda hard but not as ridiculous a notion as it was when you weren't doing it ever. You sometimes feel like its easy and other times wish you were an engineer with a house and a 401K living in the burbs and going to TGIFrdays with your buddies for happy hour every night.

But at the end of the day you realize that it was worth it, you would never do it again, but you're glad that you got through it. You feel proud of yourself but remain totally humble that you aren't even close to being where you need to be to treat patients autonomously. And you realize that you just finished something tough but it isn't even close to as tough and stressful as your residency is. Then you feel anxious about getting through the next phase of your painful career choice. But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

Hands down the best post I've ever read. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

 

[ddmo]

I think a blatant example of the differences can be found in the hundreds of posts by pre-allos freaking out about what to study and what books to buy during the summer before med school. The anxiety and neurosis practically comes right out of the screen. Meanwhile all the med students are usually advising them to spend the entire summer on the beach or sleeping.

 

[prana_md]

Great thread.

I live in Pre-Allo, but my partner just graduated from residency, so I feel like I got a taste of Allo-World over the past four years. Maybe I won't say stupid stuff in the elevator. Or maybe I'll be so excited to *be* in med school that I'll forget all about this and jabber away about cadavers.

I've seen that pager lying on the coffee table and felt such loathing toward it as I never imagined one could feel toward an inanimate object.

I've collected mountains of teal green scrubs for the laundry while a mysterious being snores in my bed post-call for 18 hours straight.

There's going out to dinner because someone lived.

There's going out to dinner because someone died.

Awake at 3 am reassuring them that they're good enough. That they're not going to get "discovered" and kicked out of the residency.

Thanks, Allo-World, for some perspective. I'll try to be a first-year you can talk to. If you're not too tired.

I'll be sleeping on the beach until August, if anyone needs me.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

This thread makes my recent worries seem, well, meaningless. to this thread .

BTW, which anatomy book should I study the summer before I start medical school?

 

[oompa loompa]

great post.

but come now, did you not experience a bit of this in college?
Not to undermine the struggles of med school, which I'm sure are worse than anything I've ever experienced before, but I could have applied a lot of your post (minus the medical/patient stuff) to my undergrad experience, and I'm sure others feel the same way. I'm led to believe that a lot of the positive "hopeful" things you put at the end are just rationalizations for the misery you've endured.

 

[superdevil]

When I was a first year everybody was going to do pediatrics or some other primary care specialty. After a few years of hard work and a dose of real medicine during third year people begin to look at medicine as more of a career than a calling. Nothing wrong with that, of course, just pointing out the difference. You rarely read the "I just want to help people and don't care about money" posts on the Allopathic Forum.

excellent post. the pre-allo forum is rife with youth and naive idealism. that attitude dissipates on the allo forum, and is practically non-existant on the residency forums. actually having to deal with reality does strange things to people.

 

[SmartAlek]

My perception as I approach graduating med school (and thus have lots of free time to offer sage advice to strangers) is that I have changed a lot in four years. I was very naive starting out. I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. Whereas, when I was a first year, I totally bonded with all of the interviewees. Now, their questions seemed so unimportant. They were so curious about anatomy lab and transcipts and curriculum that I just felt like I wasn't that helpful to them because all of that stuff was so useless to me and any aspect of matching into a residency and finding a specialty career that you would be happy with. The first two years are such a distant blur, its unbelievable. They matter so little its almost as if they didn't even happen. Third year, working with patients, is etched in my head though. That was when med school really started. I feel weathered and older. I swear the number of gray hairs on my head has increased by about tenfold.

Let me qualify it by saying that I went straight from college to med school and I think my experience is somewhat different than someone who took 3 years off before school (which makes me wonder if it really is just the maturing that comes with aging that has contributed to my perceptions changing so much). 3rd year of clinical medicine is a big eye opener. You learn to value life, to respect death, and to never be surprised by the worst. You remember patients' faces that you treated 2 years ago but you don't "feel" for them the way their families do. You "feel" for them the way doctors do, in a weirdly professional, but real way.

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility to be a doctor with expectations that far exceed almost any other occupation (except obvious ones like being the president). Its amazing that we are granted the ability, directly or indirectly, to subjectively make definitive decisions that are often morally in debate among the lay community. And our society doesn't agree on them, yet on a day to day basis, doctors wield their power to make these decisions based on their own value system. It is really amazing

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

In terms of the pre-allo culture...I think people spend way too much time debating prestige and rankings and grades and checklist items for what makes them valuable as a candidate to be a doctor. I now realize that adcoms are a much wiser group than premeds and they usually have a decent idea of who is a stat stuffer and who is the real deal. By the way, there aren't enough "real deals" in my opinion to fill all of the medical schools. Thus, all med schools have a large proportion of stat stuffers. Sometimes, those stat stuffers turn out to be the real deal, but many times they do not.

I think its difficult to predict who will be able to thrive in med school and who won't. I don't mean during the first two years, I mean during the third year when it becomes a combination of stamina, intelligence, diligence, knowledge, people skills, likability, and confidence which make you succeed. Oftentimes, adcoms have their own agendas in terms of who they want and it isn't always the most objective criteria, but I don't think it is something to cry about for premeds. You choose your own destiny, but it is helped by your pedigree and you have little control over that. Get over it and make the most out of what you got. Once you are in medical school, the playing field seems to even out much more. You need to be proactive about your life and career and make success happen for yourself rather than have anybody spoonfeed you the formula to becoming a good candidate for residency. If you are the real deal, the sky is the limit for you. By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Competition still exists, the culture of med school is far from "laid back" if you are comparing to any normal standard for what is laid back. It is a brutal, grueling grinder of a life. But you start to not feel like there is any other way to live and you laugh at your friends who think that working 50 hour weeks is a tough life. You can't relate to them sometimes and they ask you about med school and you just can't come up with statements that adequately capture what you are going through. So you bond with some classmates and have intense times together (and even more intense post exam parties). You abhor some of your classmates, and are in awe of the talent of others. You feel inadequate for the first time in your life because you just aren't as capable at doing something as someone else is and you've never felt that before. You learn how to stay up for 24 hours straight and it becomes kinda hard but not as ridiculous a notion as it was when you weren't doing it ever. You sometimes feel like its easy and other times wish you were an engineer with a house and a 401K living in the burbs and going to TGIFrdays with your buddies for happy hour every night.

But at the end of the day you realize that it was worth it, you would never do it again, but you're glad that you got through it. You feel proud of yourself but remain totally humble that you aren't even close to being where you need to be to treat patients autonomously. And you realize that you just finished something tough but it isn't even close to as tough and stressful as your residency is. Then you feel anxious about getting through the next phase of your painful career choice. But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

Beautiful

 

[jonQpub]

i respect your writing and honesty - but i don't know, being an MD applicant puts you in a lousy position and you can't blame us for seeming idealistic or over anxious. we just want to start a career, and only have an admissions brochure to guide our answers of feigned honesty - or is it indeed naivte? now, i have right to be perhaps an incredibly jaded person. i have 3 bachelors degrees, 3 masters, a PhD, worked in ER's during summers as an EMT, and am currently performing autopsies. now, i'm only 24, but i'm not jaded, i love people, i love clinic, and i am still having a hell of a time getting in to med schools. i just want to start a career that doesn't involve removing brains and testicles. through all of the disturbing things i have witnessed, i have simply wanted to be in the position to make decisions and take a more proactive role in medicine. i've seen the jaded, i've seen the enthusiastic. it seems that without fail, the better doctors are the enthusiastic ones who love their work, or at least appear to. i have total sympathy for everyone (almost) on the pre-allo forum. to anybody who regrets your position in med school: shame on you for not questioning yourself more deeply before you pursued a career for the purpose of feeding your ego and impressing your parents. to those who stick it out and love your work: i tip my hat.

 

[Ross434]

Simply awesome...

And, as a person who got out of the game after undergrad (actualy checked out sometime during my soph. year and coasted) because he didn't think he could take any more school....I've been that Engineer with the nice house and the 401K and the drinking with buddies....All I can say is that you made the right choice....believe me when I say that...I say that as someone that is trying to get back into "the game".

Why does everyone mention 401k's ... Who the hell dreams of getting a 401k when they grow up!? Gah! Its like, yeah, man, i have a nice house, and a freaking 401k man. Lol

 

[Skialta]

"but come now, did you not experience a bit of this in college?
Not to undermine the struggles of med school, which I'm sure are worse than anything I've ever experienced before, but I could have applied a lot of your post (minus the medical/patient stuff) to my undergrad experience, and I'm sure others feel the same way. I'm led to believe that a lot of the positive "hopeful" things you put at the end are just rationalizations for the misery you've endured."


Welcome to life....

 

[MJB]

Why does everyone mention 401k's ... Who the hell dreams of getting a 401k when they grow up!? Gah! Its like, yeah, man, i have a nice house, and a freaking 401k man. Lol

I think you are reading it wrong....while the med-student is going in large amounts of debt, his/her buddies are socking away what amounts to a little bit of cash, but can very easily become a million over the course of their working life....ever seen the charts for starting to save before you're thirty?

I'm facing the prospect of letting my retirement go stagnant for the better part of my 30's while accumulating more and more debt...that's not a great feeling...but I think I'll like that more than living the "easy" life I have now....

 

[rotatores]

I have total sympathy for everyone (almost) on the pre-allo forum. to anybody who regrets your position in med school: shame on you for not questioning yourself more deeply before you pursued a career for the purpose of feeding your ego and impressing your parents. to those who stick it out and love your work: i tip my hat.

You've got to be kidding me...there are plenty of med students who spent many hours shadowing physicians, working as EMT's/CNA etc..who truely "questioned themselves more deelply" prior to med school and now have a complete different perspective on medicine. Medicine is a career...simple as that. It's not a "calling". Until you actually spend years grueling through med school yourself please don't point fingers.

Rotatores
USUHS 2006

 

[sacrament]

You've got to be kidding me...there are plenty of med students who spent many hours shadowing physicians, working as EMT's/CNA etc..who truely "questioned themselves more deelply" prior to med school and now have a complete different perspective on medicine. Medicine is a career...simple as that. It's not a "calling". Until you actually spend years grueling through med school yourself please don't point fingers.

Rotatores
USUHS 2006

He also said he has 3 bachelors degrees, 3 masters, a PhD and he's 24 years old. It's a troll.

 

[nala]

He also said he has 3 bachelors degrees, 3 masters, a PhD and he's 24 years old. It's a troll.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Unless of course he's Doogie Howser.

 

[jonQpub]

no, doogie's punk ass got into med school. by troll you are probably implying i never left the library nor have a social compass at all . . . i was also a professional mogul/extreme skier, and have many hobbies and social experiences, and i love beer and good laughs.

what i meant, was that i could be jaded by school, i could be jaded by irresponsible citizens in the ER, i could be jaded by the morbidity of death, and i could be jaded by the bureaucracy that has transformed contemporary medicine, but i'm not. many of you could likely be only a few years older than me, but its possible i still have more experience in medicine than you do (possible). yet, myself and others on the pre-allo blog are faced with the barrier of an ad com, not the duldrum of dissappointment in a career move. that is YOUR fault. we have no fault in our angst, so don't condescend our frustrations. meanwhile, you guys sit here and piss and moan "boo hoo, medicine is JUST a career!!" what did you think it was? i'll point fingers if i have to, i've taught plenty of med students before . . .

 

[rotatores]

no, doogie's punk ass got into med school. by troll you are probably implying i never left the library nor have a social compass at all . . . i was also a professional mogul/extreme skier, and have many hobbies and social experiences, and i love beer and good laughs.

what i meant, was that i could be jaded by school, i could be jaded by irresponsible citizens in the ER, i could be jaded by the morbidity of death, and i could be jaded by the bureaucracy that has transformed contemporary medicine, but i'm not. many of you could likely be only a few years older than me, but its possible i still have more experience in medicine than you do (possible). yet, myself and others on the pre-allo blog are faced with the barrier of an ad com, not the duldrum of dissappointment in a career move. that is YOUR fault. we have no fault in our angst, so don't condescend our frustrations. meanwhile, you guys sit here and piss and moan "boo hoo, medicine is JUST a career!!" what did you think it was? i'll point fingers if i have to, i've taught plenty of med students before . . .

Please...keep posting...you're just proving our point concerning your ignorance and lack of experience in medicine. I was an EMT...and you know what...I did absolutely sh$t compared to what I'm doing now...so trust me...you don't have the slightest edge of experience in "medicine", but I bet you take a kick a$$ SAMPLE hx...maybe you even are an expert at administering O2 via NC.

But hey...good luck with the 3 bachelors degrees, 3 masters, a PhD. You're obviously using them well considering you're working as an EMT.

Rotatores
USUHS 2006

 

[jonQpub]

well, you're doing a great job reading; i no longer work as an EMT, as i mentioned.

. . . and, this isn't necessarily personal. thats why i said "possible". but regardless, my only beef is the condescencion of the pre-allo blog. i just think there is an element of personal accountability that you should accept before complaining about how naive we "pre-meds" are because we don't realize medicine is a career.

seriously, what did you think it was going to be?

 

[Elysium]

well, you're doing a great job reading; i no longer work as an EMT, as i mentioned.

. . . and, this isn't necessarily personal. thats why i said "possible". but regardless, my only beef is the condescencion of the pre-allo blog. i just think there is an element of personal accountability that you should accept before complaining about how naive we "pre-meds" are because we don't realize medicine is a career.

seriously, what did you think it was going to be?

It's now starting to occur to me why this genius hasn't gotten into med school. Maybe the adcoms have figured out (like we have) that you're a total jack ass!

Now, go back to your pre-med "blog" and tell those lunatics about your 14 PhDs and extensive experience in the medical field (all by 24!), because the actual medical students don't give a crap.

 

[jonQpub]

that's a very impressive way to not answer a question . . .

i'll reiterate my point - obviously you ******s need to see it twice before you get it:

"myself and others on the pre-allo blog are faced with the barrier of an ad com, not the duldrum of dissappointment in a career move. that is YOUR fault. we have no fault in our angst, so don't condescend our frustrations."

the anxiety of hope in life, in a black and white sense, is very different from . . . well . . . whatever it is you are going through. its simply different, not more or better, just different; and it doesn't warrant belittlement. we are anxious for our own careers just as you were - its just that you are bitching about the careers you have within your grasp.

 

[getunconcsious]

JonQ, I don't think anyone is out-and-out saying they regret their decision, just that it's harder and more burdensome than they realized it would be going in. If someone decides to change careers out of med school, I think it's fine. I mean why trap some poor person in a career they hate? Questioning whether to stay in medical school doesn't make someone a horrible person, it probably just means that they didn't know 100% what they were getting into. But how could they?

 

[Hoya11]

great post.

but come now, did you not experience a bit of this in college?
Not to undermine the struggles of med school, which I'm sure are worse than anything I've ever experienced before, but I could have applied a lot of your post (minus the medical/patient stuff) to my undergrad experience, and I'm sure others feel the same way. I'm led to believe that a lot of the positive "hopeful" things you put at the end are just rationalizations for the misery you've endured.

oompa loompa hit it right on the head in my opinion. This long post by worriedwell sounds like a nostalgic recall of the events and the impact on his life. I CAN relate to the feelings of "50 hours a week isnt hard" and surprise of the hardness of the process, and yes it does feel good to overcome those obstacles. But I wish i did not have to of course. Honestly, I would want to be one of those guys at TGI fridays, AND be a physician is that not possible?

This post makes it sound like the obstacles were magical medical obstacles that had some kind of inner lesson or something. THey were just BS and it feels good to get through any kind of BS in life in general. ANd all for the name of writing "physician" down on the paper, sounds so conceited. Good job getting through school, school is tough and you are a trooper, but it doesnt have to be tough and annoying.

HIgh school/college had some obstacles too and I dont feel like going back and changing them, but i am not going to sit here and say i enjoyed them with a smile on my face. keep it real a lot of this process is BS, blows, and is being passed on to the next generation of medstudents. I agree with the above posters that this kind of complacence among medical students only makes the problem worse for you and that it IS our fault (among others). There are problems, lets fix them, this sucks. Everyone is too busy pulling those 50+ hour weeks to do this tho I guess, or screened by adcoms to have this annoying personality to eat crap and come out smiling. Peace all

 

[rugirlie]

But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

Your post almost made me cry and I haven't even begun my med school journey yet. Seriously, this was like some cheesy speech people make at graduation in the movies, but meaningful. I've never met a doctor that can articulate his/her feelings quite so well. Sure you're not in the wrong career field?

 

[sacrament]

no, doogie's punk ass got into med school. by troll you are probably implying i never left the library nor have a social compass at all . . .

No, by troll I mean you're full of sh1t.

 

[1Path]

Excellent post, worriedwell.

An Allo vs. Pre-Allo Case Report:

40 yo white female, single, two children, works as cashier and part-time waitress. No health insurance. Presents with obvious left breast changes .

Allo Response: Schedule a mammo and FNA or core biopsy. Consult heme-onc and schedule the OR if excision is warranted.

Pre-Allo Response: If I treat her will I still make over 200K a year? Is she contributing enough to society to even deserve treatment? You know, at some point the ER's are just going to have to start turning people away. But thank God she's not in Canada... then she'd REALLY be screwed.

Sorry, just having a little fun.

Pre-Allo/Future pathologist response:

Looks like breast cancer to me, so I'd skip the FNA (since you'd probably end up having it excised anyway) and go straight to the excisional biopsy

 

[CJMPre-Med]

no, doogie's punk ass got into med school. by troll you are probably implying i never left the library nor have a social compass at all . . . i was also a professional mogul/extreme skier, and have many hobbies and social experiences, and i love beer and good laughs.

what i meant, was that i could be jaded by school, i could be jaded by irresponsible citizens in the ER, i could be jaded by the morbidity of death, and i could be jaded by the bureaucracy that has transformed contemporary medicine, but i'm not. many of you could likely be only a few years older than me, but its possible i still have more experience in medicine than you do (possible). yet, myself and others on the pre-allo blog are faced with the barrier of an ad com, not the duldrum of dissappointment in a career move. that is YOUR fault. we have no fault in our angst, so don't condescend our frustrations. meanwhile, you guys sit here and piss and moan "boo hoo, medicine is JUST a career!!" what did you think it was? i'll point fingers if i have to, i've taught plenty of med students before . . .

You're an atrocious writer for someone who has three bachelor's degrees, three master's degrees, and a doctorate. At age 24. "We have no fault in our angst, so don't condescend our frustrations?" I mean, what is that?


I guess thesis-writing doesn't help one's writing skills as much as I had thought...

 

[8744]

no, doogie's punk ass got into med school. by troll you are probably implying i never left the library nor have a social compass at all . . . i was also a professional mogul/extreme skier, and have many hobbies and social experiences, and i love beer and good laughs.

what i meant, was that i could be jaded by school, i could be jaded by irresponsible citizens in the ER, i could be jaded by the morbidity of death, and i could be jaded by the bureaucracy that has transformed contemporary medicine, but i'm not. many of you could likely be only a few years older than me, but its possible i still have more experience in medicine than you do (possible). yet, myself and others on the pre-allo blog are faced with the barrier of an ad com, not the duldrum of dissappointment in a career move. that is YOUR fault. we have no fault in our angst, so don't condescend our frustrations. meanwhile, you guys sit here and piss and moan "boo hoo, medicine is JUST a career!!" what did you think it was? i'll point fingers if i have to, i've taught plenty of med students before . . .

Who is complaining that medicine is just a career? I knew this from day one and I have never been disappointed. In fact, medical school is on of the few things in life that I think lives up to its billing. It has been worthwhile and rewarding. It is only people who go into it thinking they will come out as medical saints who are probably disappointed.

In fact, the only disappointment I have had in the last four years is not matching into Emergency Medicine and having to scramble. (But since I manage to scramble into Duke Family Medicine even that worked out to my satisfaction.) Everything else has been as advertised and I am incredibly happy to have gotten through it and very excited to start my residency in two months.

I also never said I was jaded, or that any of my classmates are. I just observed that people on the pre-allopathic forum tend to be poseurs trying to cast themselves as Patch Adams-like figures at the expense of those who are pursuing medicine as well-paying and interesting career.

Four years of medical school strips away the false veneer of sainthood leaving the real person exposed. This is not a bad thing. Wanting to make a good living is not a crime, nor is trying to match into specialty based on lifestyle and monetary considerations.

I never even considered surgery, for example, because I just don't want to work that hard for so long as a resident. Sure, I could hep' a lot of people but I value free time, my wife and my kids more than I value selfless service to the unwashed masses.

It is possible to like people, to want to help them, and to be a good physician while at the same time trying to maximize your salary and not kissing your patient's asses. This is what you will learn in medical school: It's just a job.

 

[8744]

great post.

but come now, did you not experience a bit of this in college?
Not to undermine the struggles of med school, which I'm sure are worse than anything I've ever experienced before, but I could have applied a lot of your post (minus the medical/patient stuff) to my undergrad experience, and I'm sure others feel the same way. I'm led to believe that a lot of the positive "hopeful" things you put at the end are just rationalizations for the misery you've endured.

I understand your point but for me graduating from undergrad was no big deal. I didn't even go to my graduation ceremony because I thought the whole thing was so pedestrian. (Is that the right word? Banal?) Not only that but there was nothing particularly difficult about college. It required very little in the way of lifestyle modifcation. No call. No responsibility to others, and no long hours. It was just a business arangement between me and the university. I gave them money, they taught classes. I had absoutely no school spirit, didn't care about the football team, and today I throw all alumni correspondence directly from the mailbox to the trash can unopened. I just didn't and don't care.

On the other hand I definitly feel like I have accomplished something difficult in finishing medical school.

Of course, I didn't plan on medical school when I matriculated so it might be different if you are a traditional pre-med student.

Somebody with some time on their hands should list, for the benefit of our pre-allo friends, the differences between medical school and college.

 

[WVmed]

jonQpub
Don't listen to this pack of wolves. They smell blood and go hunting whoever they feel they can make fun of or ridicule.
Seriously, your pre-allo anticipation and anxiety is perfectly natural, and all these M1's and M2's had the same feelings. Ignore those people.

Worriedwell,
Very nice post. Thanks for your good insight, man

 

[8744]

jonQpub
Don't listen to this pack of wolves. They smell blood and go hunting whoever they feel they can make fun of or ridicule.
Seriously, your pre-allo anticipation and anxiety is perfectly natural, and all these M1's and M2's had the same feelings. Ignore those people.

Worriedwell,
Very nice post. Thanks for your good insight, man

Come on man. We're just offering some insight from the perspective of medical students who are about to graduate.

 

[superdevil]

...people on the pre-allopathic forum tend to be poseurs trying to cast themselves as Patch Adams-like figures at the expense of those who are pursuing medicine as well-paying and interesting career.

Four years of medical school strips away the false veneer of sainthood leaving the real person exposed. This is not a bad thing. Wanting to make a good living is not a crime, nor is trying to match into specialty based on lifestyle and monetary considerations.

I never even considered surgery, for example, because I just don't want to work that hard for so long as a resident. Sure, I could hep' a lot of people but I value free time, my wife and my kids more than I value selfless service to the unwashed masses.

It is possible to like people, to want to help them, and to be a good physician while at the same time trying to maximize your salary and not kissing your patient's asses. This is what you will learn in medical school: It's just a job.

at the risk of sounding like some pathetic sycophant, please don't ever stop posting on SDN. SDN needs this kind of no-pretense pragmatism, as it is full of pompous asshats.

 

[rotatores]

Seriously, your pre-allo anticipation and anxiety is perfectly natural, and all these M1's and M2's had the same feelings. Ignore those people.

Actually...the majority here posting are M3's and M4's...which is a huge difference from M1's and M2's perspective. I found myself still thinking like a pre-med during those useless first two years of med school.

To premeds: I would highly recommend listening to Panda bear...he's had some really good posts and he truely does represent the opinion of about 98% of graduates of med school...you don't believe me now...but don't worry, you will soon enough.

 

[aphistis]

My perception as I approach graduating med school (and thus have lots of free time to offer sage advice to strangers) is that I have changed a lot in four years. I was very naive starting out. I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. Whereas, when I was a first year, I totally bonded with all of the interviewees. Now, their questions seemed so unimportant. They were so curious about anatomy lab and transcipts and curriculum that I just felt like I wasn't that helpful to them because all of that stuff was so useless to me and any aspect of matching into a residency and finding a specialty career that you would be happy with. The first two years are such a distant blur, its unbelievable. They matter so little its almost as if they didn't even happen. Third year, working with patients, is etched in my head though. That was when med school really started. I feel weathered and older. I swear the number of gray hairs on my head has increased by about tenfold.

Let me qualify it by saying that I went straight from college to med school and I think my experience is somewhat different than someone who took 3 years off before school (which makes me wonder if it really is just the maturing that comes with aging that has contributed to my perceptions changing so much). 3rd year of clinical medicine is a big eye opener. You learn to value life, to respect death, and to never be surprised by the worst. You remember patients' faces that you treated 2 years ago but you don't "feel" for them the way their families do. You "feel" for them the way doctors do, in a weirdly professional, but real way.

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility to be a doctor with expectations that far exceed almost any other occupation (except obvious ones like being the president). Its amazing that we are granted the ability, directly or indirectly, to subjectively make definitive decisions that are often morally in debate among the lay community. And our society doesn't agree on them, yet on a day to day basis, doctors wield their power to make these decisions based on their own value system. It is really amazing

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

In terms of the pre-allo culture...I think people spend way too much time debating prestige and rankings and grades and checklist items for what makes them valuable as a candidate to be a doctor. I now realize that adcoms are a much wiser group than premeds and they usually have a decent idea of who is a stat stuffer and who is the real deal. By the way, there aren't enough "real deals" in my opinion to fill all of the medical schools. Thus, all med schools have a large proportion of stat stuffers. Sometimes, those stat stuffers turn out to be the real deal, but many times they do not.

I think its difficult to predict who will be able to thrive in med school and who won't. I don't mean during the first two years, I mean during the third year when it becomes a combination of stamina, intelligence, diligence, knowledge, people skills, likability, and confidence which make you succeed. Oftentimes, adcoms have their own agendas in terms of who they want and it isn't always the most objective criteria, but I don't think it is something to cry about for premeds. You choose your own destiny, but it is helped by your pedigree and you have little control over that. Get over it and make the most out of what you got. Once you are in medical school, the playing field seems to even out much more. You need to be proactive about your life and career and make success happen for yourself rather than have anybody spoonfeed you the formula to becoming a good candidate for residency. If you are the real deal, the sky is the limit for you. By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Competition still exists, the culture of med school is far from "laid back" if you are comparing to any normal standard for what is laid back. It is a brutal, grueling grinder of a life. But you start to not feel like there is any other way to live and you laugh at your friends who think that working 50 hour weeks is a tough life. You can't relate to them sometimes and they ask you about med school and you just can't come up with statements that adequately capture what you are going through. So you bond with some classmates and have intense times together (and even more intense post exam parties). You abhor some of your classmates, and are in awe of the talent of others. You feel inadequate for the first time in your life because you just aren't as capable at doing something as someone else is and you've never felt that before. You learn how to stay up for 24 hours straight and it becomes kinda hard but not as ridiculous a notion as it was when you weren't doing it ever. You sometimes feel like its easy and other times wish you were an engineer with a house and a 401K living in the burbs and going to TGIFrdays with your buddies for happy hour every night.

But at the end of the day you realize that it was worth it, you would never do it again, but you're glad that you got through it. You feel proud of yourself but remain totally humble that you aren't even close to being where you need to be to treat patients autonomously. And you realize that you just finished something tough but it isn't even close to as tough and stressful as your residency is. Then you feel anxious about getting through the next phase of your painful career choice. But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

Absolutely the best post ever on the Allopathic Forum. It needs to be made into a "sticky" for the Pre-Allopathic Forum.

Just the Allo forum? I'd nominate this as the best post in SDN history, period.

 

[tupac_don]

Simply awesome...

And, as a person who got out of the game after undergrad (actualy checked out sometime during my soph. year and coasted) because he didn't think he could take any more school....I've been that Engineer with the nice house and the 401K and the drinking with buddies....All I can say is that you made the right choice....believe me when I say that...I say that as someone that is trying to get back into "the game".

It's so funny to me how grass looks greener on the other side. I think it's mostly b/c people see the good aspect of the other career and choose not to look at the bad aspects. I think even when choosing to be a physician, people focus on prestige of being a doctor, ability to make a diff in others lives or simply make money. But I think it's really a combination, b/c really there are much better ways to make money if that's the primary goal then being a physician. I think a lot of people get enchanted with the image of the attending physician who has been in the game for a while and has attained respect, money, status and prestige. However that is not the case with residents, who are working like dogs for meager pay, with tremendous amount of responsibility. But then if hours are such a problem why not be an RN or PA. Realistically you can quickly switch and get that RN or PA degree, within 2 yrs, no probs. So why dont' people do that, if being a physician is such a drag and a grueling test of abilities. Well I think it simply comes down to personality, I think people who like to be in charge, be in control will thrive on being physicians and will get more pleasure out of that then any sleep or family time sacrifice that occurrs. Medicine seems to me like it is really suited well to obsessive/compulsive individuals, who tend to have the ability to immerse themselves in the thing they love the most--medicine in this case. I think those types of individuals can really thrive in medicine, that is the real deal as one of the posters mentioned. B/c if you see medicine as the one, the only, thing that becomes the revolving center of your world, consumes your thoughts and your life, you will be an excellent physician and not a very well rounded human being. However, some doctors will complain how med school is tough how there is lot of discipline, of course, yes, but what about pros like Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, they work very hard and are consumed by their respective sports. I think the difference is that they choose to do it and on their own terms, whereas you are forced into the hours provided by the residency, your time is not your own, pts come before you and your time.

I truly believe that most successful and happiest doctors for that matter are those consumed by medicine, who live & breathe to be doctors. However, your avg med student does not want to be a "slave" to medicine and that's where the incongruity is occurring. Well that's my long rant for the day. But I think I might have stumbled upon something here. To really be successful, in medicine, you have to accept it not as a career but as a way of life. If you can't, then it is not the best field for you.

 

[Ross434]

It's so funny to me how grass looks greener on the other side. I think it's mostly b/c people see the good aspect of the other career and choose not to look at the bad aspects. I think even when choosing to be a physician, people focus on prestige of being a doctor, ability to make a diff in others lives or simply make money. But I think it's really a combination, b/c really there are much better ways to make money if that's the primary goal then being a physician. I think a lot of people get enchanted with the image of the attending physician who has been in the game for a while and has attained respect, money, status and prestige. However that is not the case with residents, who are working like dogs for meager pay, with tremendous amount of responsibility. But then if hours are such a problem why not be an RN or PA. Realistically you can quickly switch and get that RN or PA degree, within 2 yrs, no probs. So why dont' people do that, if being a physician is such a drag and a grueling test of abilities. Well I think it simply comes down to personality, I think people who like to be in charge, be in control will thrive on being physicians and will get more pleasure out of that then any sleep or family time sacrifice that occurrs. Medicine seems to me like it is really suited well to obsessive/compulsive individuals, who tend to have the ability to immerse themselves in the thing they love the most--medicine in this case. I think those types of individuals can really thrive in medicine, that is the real deal as one of the posters mentioned. B/c if you see medicine as the one, the only, thing that becomes the revolving center of your world, consumes your thoughts and your life, you will be an excellent physician and not a very well rounded human being. However, some doctors will complain how med school is tough how there is lot of discipline, of course, yes, but what about pros like Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, they work very hard and are consumed by their respective sports. I think the difference is that they choose to do it and on their own terms, whereas you are forced into the hours provided by the residency, your time is not your own, pts come before you and your time.

I truly believe that most successful and happiest doctors for that matter are those consumed by medicine, who live & breathe to be doctors. However, your avg med student does not want to be a "slave" to medicine and that's where the incongruity is occurring. Well that's my long rant for the day. But I think I might have stumbled upon something here. To really be successful, in medicine, you have to accept it not as a career but as a way of life. If you can't, then it is not the best field for you.

But you can put this amount of time and dedication into any career field, and its not just medicine that attracts these types of people who want to immerse themselves.

 

[abcxyz0123]

But you can put this amount of time and dedication into any career field, and its not just medicine that attracts these types of people who want to immerse themselves.

But the thing is, medicine is the only career that will guarantee a reward for each step you take if u know ur gona immerse yourself in your work. reward as in the eventual acceptance to med school, acceptance to residency, etc... Everything your working for ends up being a productive use of your time, whereas with other jobs, you can put your whole life into it for 40 years and still remain in the same spot u started.

 

[Ross434]

But the thing is, medicine is the only career that will guarantee a reward for each step you take if u know ur gona immerse yourself in your work. reward as in the eventual acceptance to med school, acceptance to residency, etc... Everything your working for ends up being a productive use of your time, whereas with other jobs, you can put your whole life into it for 40 years and still remain in the same spot u started.

I agree that medicine is more merit based than other careers, but, people as skilled and as bright as us arent going to be staying in the same spot for long anywhere. That idea about being stuck in a dead end job usually tends to be an excuse after the fact that the person wasnt trying hard enough.

 

[SocialistMD]

I truly believe that most successful and happiest doctors for that matter are those consumed by medicine, who live & breathe to be doctors. To really be successful, in medicine, you have to accept it not as a career but as a way of life. If you can't, then it is not the best field for you.

While I represent what you feel is what makes a successful and happy physician (one who sees it as a calling or way of life), I disagree with your post. It is possible to love what you do and still see family or outside interests as higher priority, and that "love of the game" is what will make you a great physician. I have many classmates who never once complained about their clinical years; those who came to work every day and loved what they were doing despite the long hours and the scut to be done. However, they still loved their families and their time with them more. One matched into dermatology. Another, who wanted to practice orthopaedic surgery, decided a sports medicine fellowship out of family medicine would suit his family interests more. Both of these people I would trust to care for my family because they are both intelligent people and love what they do, but both of them see medicine as a job rather than a life. I'd say 90-95% of my class is the same way, and I'd trust most of them to care for my family and I know they will all make excellent (and happy) physicians despite the fact that they don't place medicine as their top priority.

There are some specialties that are more demanding and almost require a "way of life" mindset, but it is still possible to have priorities above medicine and be an effective and happy physician as long as you love what you do.

 

[MJB]

Seth, I pretty much agree completely.

Ross, I wonder if you've ever worked in the "real" world...not meant to be an insult, I just wonder sometimes with the comments you make..

I've seen lots of people "get comfortable" after trying to bust their tails and not seeing it pay off...It's not hard to do at all...and to borrow a quote from a favorite movie of mine....it's not hard to get comfortable when you have:

the job, the family, the fugging big television, the washing machine, the car, the compact disc and electrical tin opener, good health, low cholesterol, dental insurance, mortgage, starter home, leisurewear, luggage, three-piece suite, DIY, game shows, junk food, children, walks in the park, nine to five, good at golf, washing the car, choice of sweaters, family Christmas, indexed pension, tax exemption, clearing the gutters, getting by, looking ahead, to the day you die.

My reasoning for wanting Med School is because medicine has always interested me, and I consider getting into the field "unfinished business"...I want to help people, I want a secure future, and I don't want to die doing what I do now...If I can become a doc, I think I'll have a job I can enjoy (or at least one that I think contributes to society) and I will get to be a decision maker, which might be the WORST part about working in a large corporation...fighting all the political BS. At the very least, working in healthcare will allow me to do something I'm interested in, which is more than I can say now...

 

[boticella]

actually having to deal with reality does strange things to people.

Agreed. It almost makes 'em grow up.

worriedwell, GREAT post!

 

[8744]

Another thing I find amusing is how some people (and you know who you are) who bristle at the notion of anybody imposing their moral or religious belief on anybody else feel free to attempt to impose their pseudo-religious beliefs vis-a-vis the moral dimension of medicine on us.

If you think medicine is a "calling" then somebody has to have called you.

Please keep your religious views to yourself and stop trying to cram them down our throats.