Practicing medicine in Aus/NZ

[bobby_chamo]

What is it like to actually live and practice medicine in Australia/New Zealand?

Does the government control medicine there like they do in Canada? Or is it similar in system to the US?

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[bobby_chamo]

Hmm. Where in this forum may I find the threads regarding the economic incomes of US vs Australian doctors?

 

[pitman]

Originally posted by flindophile
There is less incentive to be a GP because the training requirements were recently increased.

This is interesting -- the policy would seem to reflect a recent (policymaker) desire for increased specialization.

-pitman

 

[bobby_chamo]

Wow.. My family visited Australia a few years ago, and I'm kicking myself in the ass for not having gone. We will return though, and also to check out New Zealand.

I'm from a moderate city in Louisiana. About 80,000 people or so. Let's just say that life here is as plain as it comes. Nothing exciting, nothing out of the ordinary.

I've traveled all over, Hawaii, Nicaragua, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria/Hungary, England, and of course New York City. So many of these places I would love to live, but I know that it's a big thing to move, especially to another country and try to practice medicine. And of course there is a problem with the economic gains/losses of being a doctor in another country, and whether or not the government regulates medicine.

Part of me feels like I'm living in a fantasy world by even entertaining the notion that I would live somewhere else, in a different country, or somewhere exotic. It seems like *everyone* would want to live in these beautiful places, or these interesting places.

So. I guess I'm asking is it realistic to think about moving to other countries to practice medicine as a US doctor? Or is it very difficult? And are the "paradises" full of doctors (overcrowded)?

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by bobby_chamo
What is it like to actually live and practice medicine in Australia/New Zealand?

Does the government control medicine there like they do in Canada? Or is it similar in system to the US?

My opinion is that it's the best of both worlds. In Canada there is a cap on the salary that doctors can make at least in Ontario. At least in Australia this is not the case.

I think even though Flindophile and I disagree on the specific lifestyle of being a doc here, we both agree that being a doc in Australia still affords you a good lifestyle.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by bobby_chamo
Wow.. My family visited Australia a few years ago, and I'm kicking myself in the ass for not having gone. We will return though, and also to check out New Zealand.

I'm from a moderate city in Louisiana. About 80,000 people or so. Let's just say that life here is as plain as it comes. Nothing exciting, nothing out of the ordinary.

I've traveled all over, Hawaii, Nicaragua, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria/Hungary, England, and of course New York City. So many of these places I would love to live, but I know that it's a big thing to move, especially to another country and try to practice medicine. And of course there is a problem with the economic gains/losses of being a doctor in another country, and whether or not the government regulates medicine.

Part of me feels like I'm living in a fantasy world by even entertaining the notion that I would live somewhere else, in a different country, or somewhere exotic. It seems like *everyone* would want to live in these beautiful places, or these interesting places.

So. I guess I'm asking is it realistic to think about moving to other countries to practice medicine as a US doctor? Or is it very difficult? And are the "paradises" full of doctors (overcrowded)?

- these places have a very real demand for doctors...but remember you aren't going to get a spot practicing in Melbourne or Sydney...and you will be at the bottom of the "totem" pole when you start here.

- you will have a hard time getting a fellowship as from my person experience there are lots of American MDs working here but they are all on short term contracts which have just been extended indefinitely until either an Aussie grad comes along or they find another willing doctor.

- bottom line it will be pretty difficult for you to practice here...but who knows what's possible.

 

[bobby_chamo]

When you say it's difficult to get a fellowship for a US doctor in Australia, you mean even a doctor from the US that has completed his residency will have to start over there?

On a side note, if a US Citizen went to and graduated from an Aussi school, would they face the same troubles?

Lastly, where lies the distinction between Aussi and New Zealand medicine / policies?

 

[tl47]

Hey Bobby_Chamo,

Most countries tend to protect their doctors. It is one of the most protected fields in most countries. But if traveling and seeing places is what you want, then just get your degree and residencies done with wherever it is, and then you can always join Red Cross, Peace Corps (maybe), or many many other aid groups in many different countries that will help sponsor you and get you there. Of course, it might not be nice places (in terms of comfort), but hey, depends on what you want.

I'm also sure if you really have the will to fight it out, you will be able to find ways to stay back in Australia or any other countries. (How bad do you want it? Will you work in rural areas... like really rural and everyone in the village knows you are THE doctor in town?) It's probably not as bad as most people make it out to be. I suspect many give up without trying, which obviously makes it all the more easier for you. But hey, I'm in the same boat as you, so don't take my word for it .

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by bobby_chamo
When you say it's difficult to get a fellowship for a US doctor in Australia, you mean even a doctor from the US that has completed his residency will have to start over there?

On a side note, if a US Citizen went to and graduated from an Aussi school, would they face the same troubles?

Lastly, where lies the distinction between Aussi and New Zealand medicine / policies?

I was talking about anyone who has done a residency within the US. Whether it's an IMG/FMG or a USMD. The main problem with US programs is their shortness of duration. Australia has made it difficult for you to get a fellowship without doing their residency training program and believe me without an Australian degree it's a nightmare to get into any program - even a GP training one. Yes to get a full fellowship you will have to redo your residency in Australia...which could take years. You will however as a US trained MD be allowed to do temporary jobs in rural areas; but if an Aussie grad comes along or you are no longer needed you are out. Even if you graduated from an Australian school and did your training in the US the situation would be no different.

If you graduate from Australia and you want to stay that's a different case. You will need to complete an internship within Australia and then get a PR. Once you have the PR there is no distinction between you and a local Australian citizen so you may apply for any program you want. So I guess if you were able to do all of this your US citizenship may not be a problem. But keep in mind that if you do end up getting an Australian citizenship you may have to surrender your US citizenship (i'm not sure about the laws regarding this...)

If you are licensed to practice medicine in either NZ or Australia and you hold a citizenship (not a PR) of either country it is recognized. They both use the same licensing bodies.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by tl47
Hey Bobby_Chamo,

I'm also sure if you really have the will to fight it out, you will be able to find ways to stay back in Australia or any other countries. (How bad do you want it? Will you work in rural areas... like really rural and everyone in the village knows you are THE doctor in town?) It's probably not as bad as most people make it out to be. I suspect many give up without trying, which obviously makes it all the more easier for you. But hey, I'm in the same boat as you, so don't take my word for it .

tl47 if you are refering to US trained doctors from my personalexperience it's very difficult for them to get a job...and believe me they aren't working in Hobart they are working in really rural areas! I think the way the system is set up is that if you don't want to repeat a residency you cannot obtain a full fellowship...which means you will be stuck to doing temporary jobs in rural hospitals until you are replaced or your contract is finished.

Not exactly the best life for a person who has already finished a residency in the US.

My opinion is if you don't want to work in the US don't do a US residency...just try for a residency in the country you graduated from and if you can't get it then go to the US.

 

[tl47]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
My opinion is if you don't want to work in the US don't do a US residency...just try for a residency in the country you graduated from and if you can't get it then go to the US.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. It depends on Bobby if he really really wants to serve in Australia/NZ. If so, he should maximize his chances by trying to study in Oz (to maximize probability of internship then residency), and do residency there (to maximize probability of being able to serve there).

Yet, difficult, even *very difficult* is not the same as impossible. If a person has his/her heart all cut-out to do something, most of the time such politic/legal issues are merely obstacles to be overcomed. It is *very difficult* for a foreigner to get residency in US. Other than the USMLE, you have problems of references (that are acceptable), the quotas, Visas, etc... but I still see a lot of doctors doing it and somehow finding ways to do it. I doubt it is necessarily harder in Australia or any other countries compared to US; more likely it's easier to get access to info on US (given number of people interested), but not any easier in terms of the process.

P.S. I am thinking of a person I know who spent an additional three years in US to finish up her USMLE, TOEFL and other requirements --- without guarantee she will be able to stay. She was already a practicing doctor in her home country. So, yeh, it may even take years, redo a residency/internship and you might even have to return to school a few years, but how bad you want it?

Hey, I might be wrong. But there's no knowing unless Bobby tries. Or as Yoda would say... "Do, or do not. There is no try."

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by tl47
I doubt it is necessarily harder in Australia or any other countries compared to US; more likely it's easier to get access to info on US (given number of people interested), but not any easier in terms of the process.

good advice tl47 but keep this in mind; the US has a surplus of residency spots per year in relation to the number of graduates. In Australia this is not the case. There is no where near the 25% extra positions that US students have in terms of residency training. So in that sense the US is a much easier place to get in provided you can fulfill all the obligations.

That being said if you can get a PR here you will be able to get a spot in something because you aren't an FMG/IMG as you would be in the US.

 

[pitman]

This thread should be moved to Crossing Borders (or maybe Australasia).

 

[Kiwi MD]

More than 30% of the doctors in NZ are foreign....they simply have a huge shortage of docs. You could truly get a job at any hospital as a house surgeon ( similar to an intern.) Starting salaries are around 70K NZ ( about 38K US.) However, the taxes are huge...around 36%, and the hours are long....that is why they have a problem retaining their own docs.

 

[pitman]

Outlining the Aussie GP shortage (ABC, Nov 19):

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2003/s992563.htm

Mostly about the problem and general plan to have foreign docs serve at least in the short-term, not much on actual incentives mentioned tho.

-pitman

 

[DrBlaze]

I'm probably covering a few points made here and there already, but I'll run over what I know anyway...

Australia has a huge shortage of doctors, primarily GPs. In Queensland alone nearly half of our hospital based docs are overseas trained and bought in to help fill the numbers.

It's also my understanding that if you do your med degree here then you are permitted to stay on for at least one year to do your internship (which gets you full registration).

Given we have this shortfall it would, and medicine is considered a high skilled/at need area by out dept. of imigration I couldn't see many great barriers to new graduates getting permanent residency in Australia.

I'd suggest checking out: http://www.health.qld.gov.au/careers/medical/default.asp

for a bit of info on at need areas etc.

Anyway, lunch time now!

David

 

[pitman]

Originally posted by DrBlaze
It's also my understanding that if you do your med degree here then you are permitted to stay on for at least one year to do your internship (which gets you full registration).

Do you mean that after the one year of internship, a GP is fully registered..thus the issue of long-term practice in Aus. would be reduced to getting PR? If so, it may be smart for even half-interested (half-baked ) folks as myself going to Aus. schools to seriously consider doing Aus. internship and then doing US GP res. Plus more quality LORs before US res. Or am I missing something?

-pitman

 

[DrBlaze]

After you finish your medical degree in Australia, you are awarded a lovely looking degree and you can register for conditional registration with the relevant state medical body. You do a one year paid internship in a hospital following your graduation at the end of which you are given full registration as a doctor in Australia with no speciality. I was a bit unclear about what kind of registration in my previous post.

If I remember correctly, GP (general/family practitioner ya?) training takes about 7yrs, and I think that's after the 1yr intership. I may be slightly off on this; can anyone correct me?

I'm unfamiliar with the term LORs? clue me in?

Hope that's of some help.

David

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by DrBlaze
After you finish your medical degree in Australia, you are awarded a lovely looking degree and you can register for conditional registration with the relevant state medical body. You do a one year paid internship in a hospital following your graduation at the end of which you are given full registration as a doctor in Australia with no speciality. I was a bit unclear about what kind of registration in my previous post.

If I remember correctly, GP (general/family practitioner ya?) training takes about 7yrs, and I think that's after the 1yr intership. I may be slightly off on this; can anyone correct me?

I'm unfamiliar with the term LORs? clue me in?

Hope that's of some help.

David

Actually you are way off on the GP thing. It's only a 3 year program for GP training if you want the FRACGP. Technically though you can be a non-FRACGP with just a one year internship but you won't be able to get any money from the gov't. So most ppl go the FRACGP route. Also since GP training programs aren't very competitive you could get into a program straight after internship. (someone on a previous thread posted some misinformation about being required to do two years as an RMO before obtaining a residency in anything...but this isn't the case -- most ppl. do this to make their application more competitive...but you can get into any training program directly after internship).

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by pitman
Do you mean that after the one year of internship, a GP is fully registered..thus the issue of long-term practice in Aus. would be reduced to getting PR? If so, it may be smart for even half-interested (half-baked ) folks as myself going to Aus. schools to seriously consider doing Aus. internship and then doing US GP res. Plus more quality LORs before US res. Or am I missing something?

-pitman

Actually most people go the FRACGP route now. The only thing that the internship would be really good for (without further training) would be a place as an RMO in a hospital.

 

[DrBlaze]

Thanks for that redshifteffect. It's been one of those days.

David

 

[pitman]

Originally posted by DrBlaze
...You do a one year paid internship in a hospital following your graduation at the end of which you are given full registration as a doctor in Australia with no speciality. I was a bit unclear about what kind of registration in my previous post.

If I remember correctly, GP (general/family practitioner ya?) training takes about 7yrs, and I think that's after the 1yr intership. I may be slightly off on this; can anyone correct me?

I'm unfamiliar with the term LORs? clue me in?

Ok, now I'm more confused -- if GP/FP is SEVEN freakin' years post-intern, then what can a doc do with just the internship?

LORs = Letters of Recommendation. Was thinking that an internship year in Aus. would help with LORs for later US res.

-pitman

 

[DrBlaze]

Pitman,
Sorry for the confusion. I believe redshifteffect is right, and GP training is 3yrs post internship.

With just an internship under your belt, you could be a junior house officer/resident medical officer in Australia.

Check out this document I got at work:
http://members.optushome.com.au/drblaze/intern_handbook.pdf

It outlines some stuff about being a doc in Queensland, which maybe useful for you.

Regards,
David

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by DrBlaze
Thanks for that redshifteffect. It's been one of those days.

David

No problem...glad to be of help

 

[pitman]

Originally posted by DrBlaze
Check out this document I got at work:
http://members.optushome.com.au/drblaze/intern_handbook.pdf

Excellent source!

-pitman